It seems that discussions about racism get tangled up in various threads on this forum, so it would be more practical to have one thread dedicated to this complex, contentious issue.
You’re such a wilfully ignorant piece of shit Indo.
Pretty crook indo.
+ 1 to that GuySmiley and Coops. As a positive, at least those comments give us a clear (written/verbalised) vision of the obstacles in the way by what would most likely be considered 'the majority' in this country.
Agreed Blue Diamond (dig that profile pic BTW). As I've been saying for years on here, intent is more telling than content regarding gronks like Info Dreamin' and Blowie.
Poor fella, my cuntry.
Australia! You're standing in it!
Spot on mate.
ha thanks. Got smoked a few seconds later by that wave. Ah well!
Keep up the good fight.
I did start this post saying how on earth did people find that offensive..
But thinking about it, i now i see how you people took that, okay maybe i should have elaborated further i didn't see that angle, im guessing you people think I'm saying it wouldn't be different because thats what/how the people are, okay you are misunderstanding where i coming from, im not saying it's in their DNA or something along those lines, we all know thats not true, obviously outside of remote areas large numbers of indigenous people lead successful productive fulfilling life's, many that earn much more than any of us here or much smarter than any of us here or just achieved much more than any of us.
Not to mention a huge number of people in those remote communities are good people, just because rates are high of these issues does not mean they are all perpetrators many are victims especially women and children and even with social economic disadvantage there is also many positive things, its not all negative, but we still do have to acknowledge these problems and the extent of these problems in some cases it tens of times higher rates than general Australia population.
Anyway the point is even with a different past the problems would be the same in these remote community's because the root cause of the problems is basically being taken from a traditional life into a modern world life, but a modern world life that has important parts missing (a job and purpose)
In the past traditional life would have been taken up with surviving, hunting, gathering, moving with the seasons, other aspects like art, music, culture, ceremony, stories as down time and just trying to understand the unknown often through stories, the mind would have been ticking over always active and the body too, all this creating healthy mental state and purpose.
That whole aspect of drive, strive, survive and purpose is such an important factor, we all need it, it's so important to a healthy mental state.
Now without that traditional life and need to hunt, gather, move with the seasons etc taken away, that drive in many would surely be taken away, leading to boredom, frustration, poor mental health, and need to fill that boredom and self medicate with things like drinking.(which adds fuel to all those issues.)
Like it or not indigenous people now live in the modern world, but many of these communities and people don't live in the manner we do where we have jobs that keep our body and mind active and healthy and we have things to strive for or look forward to, even just weekends or holidays etc
But yeah if you think its all because of the past, good on you, keep believing that, but if we dont deal with the real issues nothing will change, doesn't matter how much money you throw at it, without employment nothing will change.
Ask yourself this question if the employment rate among indigenous people was as high as non indigenous people (and not just crappy jobs) do you honestly think there would be these problems seen at the levels currently seen?
No off course not.
As for all the symbolic aspects like reconciliation etc, by all means I'm not against those things, i think they should happen, but just don't be surprised when it makes zero difference to these problems especially in remote communities.
The last time I visited my kids’ high school library for parent- teacher interviews, I noticed that Bruce Pascoe’s Dark Emu and Bill Gammage’s The Biggest Estate on Earth were on display alongside an informative exhibition about the local Yaegl culture. This gave me hope that future generations will develop the understanding and empathy that is necessary for reconciliation. I have since read both of the aforementioned books, both of which are thoroughly researched and well written, and they made me realise how ignorant I had been about Aboriginal history and culture, largely due to the Eurocentric high school education I received in the 1980s. Looking further into my own kids’ education, it has been reassuring to discover that things have changed; Aboriginal history and culture are embedded right across the curriculum. Their school even has an annual day called River of Learning, which celebrates the richness and diversity of the local Aboriginal culture. I know that my kids and their friends have genuine respect for Aboriginal people, so I am optimistic about things getting better. Education is definitely the way forward. Indo-Dreaming, don’t wait until your next trip to Indonesia to read Dark Emu. Read it sooner than later; it’s a revelation, mate! It just might challenge your perspective, which is how we become more open-minded. Reading it definitely opened my eyes.
Over the falls......did you honestly not have respect for indigenous culture as a young fella ? That’s pretty fucked.
Didn’t you get into the Dreamtime books ? The Quinkins , Tidlik the Frog , the rainbow serpent ? That shit was gold.
I went to Sunday school once and that was more than enough . I loved the blackfella spirituality though. A lot more relevant than some fucker getting nailed to a cross.
It’s not that I didn’t have any respect for indigenous culture, it’s just that I didn’t know anything about it! I went to high school in the inner city of Melbourne. I didn’t have any interaction with Aboriginal people until I moved to the north coast a couple of decades ago.
Sounds like the ones my auntie had that she use to read to us dont remember that first one, but remember that frog that drank all the water and off course rainbow serpent.
From memory all the pics were done in water colours.
BTW, Blowin, the most fucked up thing about my education was that Aboriginal history and culture was absent. I still remember my history textbook, The Turbulent Years, which was a glorified account of the heroics of the early settlers in their quest to dominate the environment and the savages who inhabited it. There was no mention of the atrocities that were committed and the devastating effects.
Those dreamtime books were great. In my country town in the 80's we had those in the school library. The Turramulli one scared me, but i kept borrowing it!
Overthefalls....I can’t remember any Australian curriculum from my schooling . Black ,white or otherwise.
Maybe it was my parents and family ?
All I know is that I grew up sound in the idea that there was a multitude of differing and complimentary cultures within the Australian tapestry.
There was the bushies, the farmers , the fishermen, the surfers , the city crew , the blackfellas and many more . Each had a sort of uniform . How much was trope and how much was real I can’t say. I imagine the lines between the two intersect and blur .
All I know is that the blackfellas were delineated in my mind as much by culture as skin colour in my life. They weren’t better or worse, just crew following their path.
I think that’s why I get into trouble when I start talking about the issues surrounding blackfellas. I literally never saw them as a different race. I just think they’re as different to me as the wheat cockie surveying his fields and no more or less distinct on the landscape I grew up observing because of their ancestry.
My perspective was of the purely egalitarian Australia. That’s the image of our country that I was brought up to believe in and hold dear and I find it very hard to let that idea go.
The Dreamtime stories were as much the subtle and indistinct part of my Australia as bass filled bush water holes , blue tongue lizards , the Leyland brothers and cooling off in the ocean on a hot summers day. They were so ubiquitous that you only became aware of them in their absence.
Blowin, I’m just a blowin myself on this forum, so I don’t know what you’ve said about indigenous issues in the past that has got you into trouble. However, based on your post above, I can’t argue with your perspective. I just wish more people shared it.
Fast- tracking - where culture and the environment are seen as obstacles to future earnings....
Indo..."The major problems for indigenous people are much greater in remote communities, family violence, sexual abuse, rape, child abuse, homicide, high suicide rates.
If the past had been different without all the wrong doings of non indigenous people would indigenous people in remote communities still face all the all the issues they face today?"
200 years of abuse and the attempts by white Australia to turn them into whitemen , destroyed families / cultures .
stolen generation was both country and Cities , eg in Perth Noongar kids were sent to the Gibson desert and the Gibson mob were sent to Perth to try and break their cultural ties...but there were missions where kids were raped etc ......I have a couple of first hand stories I would like tell , but need permission to tell them..
One of these is, a community walked out of the desert in 1983 , never been seen before ...90 year old men with six paks , still the lead hunters , I have a very good friend who helps them , and have stories of socially superior race , where we need to learn from them .......to be cont'd
The Pintupi nine brutus ?
The caves destroyed by Rio Tinto, approved by the conservatives, Indos people, were being used as shelter by Australians 15,000 years before Neanderthal Man was extinct in Europe. At that time Australias mega-fuana, giant kangaroos, wombats and the like still roamed the country side. At the time homo sapiens in Europe were 15,000 years away from drawing their first cave art in France. DNA from the Juukan Gorge cave site is traceable to the current PKKP (local indigenous people). Rio Tinto was given ministerial approval to destroy the site and mine in 2013. They have known of it's significance at all times. They blew it up last month. I haven't heard a single conservative in Australia complain or mention this. No penalty. Just profit.
There were actually 10 Udo.
When one of them saw what was ahead of him he said 'Fuck this' and turned around.
My parents had the great pleasure of seeing ancient cave/rock drawings somewhere out near Kununurra. My cousin full blood fella Uncle George has the keys to many of the closed off areas up that way. He's an elder and also a grader driver (hence the keys- ha ha!)
Anyway, my mum and dad said it was a great privilege and there certainly is a 'feel' to the place.
Obviously no pics allowed.
Nobody disputes past atrocities they were obviously very wrong, but they don't have a bearing on the future of people no matter the acts or the people..
IMHO that mindset is extremely dangerous, if you believe you are a product of your ancestors past and that past isn't pretty and you focus on that you will surely bring negativity to your future.
It goes both ways, if my grandfather was a Nazi and responsible for the hundreds of deaths of innocent Jews, i would in no way be responsible in anyway for those deaths and should not harbour any guilt for those deaths to do so would be self destructive.
What is important would be my actions today and moving forward and how i am as a person.
It's the same with Jews i would expect and hope most don't hold ill feelings or blame on current day Germans just because some minority of Germans in past did what they did, to do so would be silly and only bring negativity upon themselves.
Off course we learn from the past and then look forward that goes without saying.
Not harbouring these feelings and resentment from generation to generation is actually IMHO a really important part of what reconciliation should be, its basically forgiveness and moving forward from the past. (while still acknowledging and learning from it)
BTW. I appreciate you keeping the discussion civil and on topic even if you might totally disagree with me, fully respect you for that, i don't care what others say, i know my heart is in the right place.
Geez Indo, sorry mate but of course they do. How could they not? And you can't really compare the Jews of today with the first Aussies. Their biggest obstacle is that no member will second them at Royal Sydney GC while the native fellas for generations have been either consciously or subconsciously relegated to second class citizens, with all the rights of what Australia has to offer but very few of the privileges. Of course with the exception of a few, it's been a pretty tough slog for the black fellas.
How many aboriginal bank managers do you know?
Sorry, terrible grammar but you catch my drift I hope.
Hi Pops....try reading watching "Songlines"......you tube ...https://au.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=songlines#id=...
there's a book also.........click on....'Songlines are known as navigational tracks, in that the elders or the trained Indigenous people will sing the landscape and therefore be able to move from location to location through it, and teach each other,' says Kelly.
'At every location, each sacred site within that sung track, they perform rituals. Those rituals are repeated songs, and those songs encode the information.'
actually everyone should check it out as there was a systemic approach to living on the land, no sense of ownership ....community...
Hi Indo, just read your last post , now we can get the discussion going.....on whether the past should hold any meaning in todays world , or has ongoing consequences in todays world....got tons of works to do but will try and answer by lunchtime...
Wow, I was so gonna write about that. My Auntie Phyllis (mentioned previously) told me a story how they could traverse the country to find food and more importantly water by singing special and unique songs.
As a small boy, i thought that was way cool.
With due respect guys the rules of nature are such that there are only so many times you should have to bang your head against a brick wall before you say fuck that. Under the guise of "civil debate" a constant stream of completely insensitive and ill-informed comments have been proffered here by Indo cunning stunt after cunning stunt - 18c/Andrew Bolt, Adam Goodes, remote community viability, the Uluru statement, Dark Emu and its author. etc etc. While diversity of opinion is good and healthy it ought to be informed. You're wasting your time, worse you're giving him the oxygen he needs to float his resurching.
Indo Dreaming states "Nobody disputes past atrocities they were obviously very wrong, but they don't have a bearing on the future of people no matter the acts or the people.."
What GuySmiley said 100%
Brutus, thanks mate :) I'll check them both out when I have a break.
Bruce Chatwin wrote The Songlines it’s available through Vintage Classics. Read it while travelling through the Uluru area. Powerful and informative. The Songlines reveal the creation of the land and associated stories. Enjoy
Sad that it took an Englishman to give Aboriginal Australian songlines a wider audience.
An interesting doco on Chatwin by one of the greats.
Actually, check out Herzog's Where the Green Ants Dream.
Dale, that green ants dreaming link reminded me of this .....
Yeah, it's a gem, Guy.
"How many aboriginal bank managers do you know?"
I have no idea of the ethicitys of bank mangers there could be indgenious people that are bank mangers, why not?
There is indigenous people that are politicians, police, teachers, journalist, TV-presenters, artist, tradies, miners, professional athletes, paramedics, real estate agents own successful business all kinds of things.
One of my best mate's has a very well paying job in high position in a bank and although he does not identify as indigenous he has very recent indigenous ancestry and skin almost as brown as my wife's, i wouldn't be surprised in ten years time if he is not the manager as is very driven.
Quite frankly i dont give a fuck what you think, you have clearly just been trolling me on this thread and are extremely narrow minded and have very cliche vanilla views, i always find you kind of fake.
IMHO you are more racist than most people here, you clearly see people as colours and treat them differently based on skin colour.
It wouldn't matter what a person of colour did or said, you would never call them out and instead try to defend them, but if the same person and actions were from a white person, you would be quite happy to call them out and critique them.
You are the kind of person that thinks just acknowledging problems in remote indigenous community's is racist.
IMHO people like you and you whole mindset are a big problem, your whole kind dont want to deal with problems in a practical manner, you are more interested in symbolism and appearances.
I didn't say there's not Indo, and for the record, i don't think you're racist or have a bad bone in your body.
What I do think is it's naive to believe that the first Aussies can just 'move on' after basically getting the shit kicked out of them for the last two centuries. That stuff cuts deep mate. Story telling is ingrained into their DNA and I would hazard a guess, along with all the beautiful aspects of their culture, the dark stories are handed down too.
I honestly believe you are very egalitarian, as am I as is Blowin, but for them (and i hate to use that word as it becomes an us and them thing) but for them and even now, there has always been that undercurrent that just bubbles away under the surface. It's hard for me to put in to words but they live with t, not us.
And don't worry about Guy, he's got a bit of a bee in his bonnet- he focuses on your delivery. Most here don't.
Cheers Zen (although have to agree to disagree with the second sentence )
BTW. Just saw this don't know if i agree with everything said, but its still good to hear a different viewpoint from am indigenous person outside of the normal few.
bruce shillingsworth jr (so assume son of artist)
Hey Zen.....how you travelling , mate ?
"and have very cliche vanilla views" and then "you are more racist than most people here, you clearly see people as colours" and then later down "It wouldn't matter what a person of colour did or said ..." Oh the irony.
zen, after years of reading ill-informed strident comments presented here on what is best for the Aboriginal communities its got nothing to do with delivery. Plenty here have been patient and attempted in good faith to engage, inform or perhaps even change a perception or two. So can you identify just one example where that happened? I can't so I admire your confidence. You're obviously aiming for sainthood if only you could get those improper thoughts of Nina Simone out of your head.
Ha ha! Love Nina.
Shoot for the stars Guy, settle for the moon.
I'm alright Blowy, cheers. They just increased to 100 the amount of people who can go to a funeral in Qld. Hundreds applied so that's nice, says something about my pop. It's going ahead Tuesday.
I get to watch online- small compensation but better than nothing.
Guy that's your take on it because you have a certain view that you believe and you don't like that view to be challenged, you call any alternative ideas to your's ill informed when many of these views i have are from what ive learnt from indigenous people like Jacinta price and Anthony dillion, Warren Mundine etc
I don't care if you don't agree with me or them, just don't try to paint me as ill informed or having some alternative racist based agenda just because the views don't align with your's.
BTW. Again you clearly see vanilla as a colour, i see it as a flavour, the term "vanilla" is based on people not wanting to explore different flavours not colours.
good vid indo
old mate betta watch his back
very pertinent point the difference in histories, BLM is loud and fashionable, but not really representative of first nations people experiences
heard many a blackfella lately say they don't want our guilt, they don't want our sympathy
also much talk of the dangerous debillitating-ness of the constant negative picture painted
that's a very white privelage 'karen' take on the matter, and arguably just perpetuates the cycle of poverty and disadvantage old mate talks about in the vid
"What I do think is it's naive to believe that the first Aussies can just 'move on' after basically getting the shit kicked out of them for the last two centuries. That stuff cuts deep mate. Story telling is ingrained into their DNA and I would hazard a guess, along with all the beautiful aspects of their culture, the dark stories are handed down too."
its not an either/or
unfortunately too many karens in positions of power
well meaning, but misguided...
Did someone say "loud and fashionable"? "Tone deaf"? "Ingrained in the DNA"?
And Info Dreamin' how come Josephine Cashman doesn't make your little roll-call anymore? Birds of a feather etc etc
The thing is my one and only view when it comes to our indigenous communities is to treat them with the greatest respect and to ask, listen and truly act on what they want e.g. Uluru Statement.
So anyone who thinks they know better than the experience of the last 200 years of “imposed” history is fooling themselves.
Until we truly engage our indigenous communities we are diminished as a nation.
A good friend of mine, indigenous elder who sadly passed away a couple of years (who i won't name out of respect) put things into perspective for me. He was taken from his parents at a young age, grew up on a mission on the SA West Coast, and harboured alot of that pain throughout his life. Having said that, he also took his culture overseas, playing the didge in Berlin, Beijing, spreading the beautiful culture of indigenous Australians. He noted the overseas crew were way more receptive/sympathetic to their past regarding white colonialism than 'Australians'. Heck, he even would be the main man playing the didge at the start of the Showdowns between the Crows and Port and at the beginning of the Adelaide test which always gave me a buzz seeing him on the big screen. A really lovely fellow, extremely successful, giving, creative and sharing. But always with that undercurrent of pain from the past. Those who are saying that the past should be forgotten and the only way to move on is to look forward are missing the bigger picture. Focusing on effect and not acknowledging cause is only going to allow the issues and wrongs of the past to compound.