It seems that discussions about racism get tangled up in various threads on this forum, so it would be more practical to have one thread dedicated to this complex, contentious issue.
Great read TBB
Agreed. Thanks TBB.....incredibly researched. Pretty harrowing stuff.
Nina Simone performing at the Harlem Festival 1969
Way cool Guy.
I got a bit of Nina on regular rotation (and not in a sexy way).
anyone seen that nick cave doco...? he talks about a nina simone gig. their promoter asks her if she needs anything, the reply..."champagne, cocaine and sausages".
nick then describes her going on stage, taking chewing gum out of her mouth and sticking it on the piano...Warren Ellis, says 'i have the gum...'. nick looks very jealous.
I'll take ya on....but on a philosophical level , Colonialist Vs Indigenous peoples and the cause and affect on the Indigenous Nations that were raped and pillaged , and how new blowins /colonialists have fared?
Ha ha god im always going to be at a disadvantage debating with you on this topic with your background and how highly respected you are in general (by myself included), especially with the crowd already on your side, id much prefer seeing you going up against someone of your same background like the people i admire that perhaps don't share your views.
But still hey why not im happy to have a healthy discussion or civil debate on the topic.
What do you honestly make of my previous post on the last page about alcohol etc? (post Sunday 8:53)
Dont just call it bullshit, but tell me why my view is wrong?, break it down a little.
I honestly think it's a sensible logical view and honestly can't understand how people dont agree.
Another good article from today.
And funny enough Warren Mundine's last quote very much along the lines of what i was saying the other day.
"For protesters not all black lives matter
Not all black lives matter equally to Australian protesters. A life lost in custody, even to natural causes, is apparently a more worthy cause than the thousands of lives lost to black-on-black violence in Aboriginal communities.
It’s an issue blighted by a culture of forgetting. Those of us who were senior editors when the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody report was handed down in 1991 have always known its flaw: the commission found death rates of indigenous people in custody were no higher than for white people.
Paul Kelly wrote here last Wednesday that the 2017-18 report of the Institute of Criminology showed that year “the death rate of indigenous prisoners was 0.14 per 100 prisoners, compared with 0.18 per 100 for non-indigenous prisoners.” Add to that the fact very few of these deaths are at the hands of police or prison guards — most are by natural causes or suicide.
Kelly said the different ways the ABC and Sky News treated the Black Lives Matter marches in Australia on the weekend of June 6 highlighted a “totally split culture” in media terms. “The ABC narrative was of the injustice of Aboriginal deaths in custody”, while the Sky News “narrative was the irresponsibility of mass protests … given the health and political advice” in the middle of a pandemic. Especially so given that COVID-19 has not hit the indigenous community.
That dual media narrative highlights another problem, an issue that has plagued indigenous affairs for four decades — the left’s preference for talking about race symbolism rather than dealing with actual murder rates, domestic violence, property crime, addiction and a lack of economic opportunity.
Long-term readers of this paper will know it has been reporting the real situation on the ground in Aboriginal Australia for decades. Reporters such as Rosemary Neill, Paul Toohey, Tony Koch and Nicolas Rothwell have won Walkley Awards for gritty reporting on the rape of women and children by indigenous men, petrol sniffing, the killing on Palm Island of Cameron Doomadgee, foetal alcohol babies and murder rates many times higher than in the wider society.
Three Aboriginal thinkers were prepared to tell the truth last week. The always thoughtful Anthony Dillon, of the Australian Catholic University, in a letter here on Thursday wrote: “The best way of reducing Aboriginal deaths in custody is to focus on reducing the rates of Aboriginal deaths, full stop.”
Alice Springs councillor Jacinta Price, always brutally honest, wrote that 70 per cent of indigenous people in jail were there for crimes of violence against their loved ones.
Warren Mundine, in The Australian Financial Review last Tuesday, said governments could not fix Aboriginal disadvantage linked to over-imprisonment rates. Economic opportunity created by business investment was the only way forward.
Here is the real problem for the media. Many leftist journalists will not report the issue as it is. They will not look at the reality of the black lives they say matter. With a couple of notable exceptions — Russell Skelton at The Age a decade ago and Suzanne Smith at the ABC ahead of the NT Intervention in 2007 — the national broadcaster and the Fairfax papers (now owned by Nine) have not wanted to look at the issue beyond allegations of systemic racism.
In my 2016 book Making Headlines, I discuss the episode that first brought home to me how wilfully blind many journalists are to the facts of indigenous disadvantage. I was a young editor, and Paul Kelly was editor-in-chief.
I was at the Melbourne Walkley Awards in 1994 when this paper’s Rosemary Neill won best feature for a piece about black women and children victimised by black husbands and fathers. After the presentation, a group of Fairfax editors rounded on our table to criticise the decision to publish Rosemary’s piece. They thought the issue should be off limits and the piece “profoundly racist”.
Three decades later, not much has improved in the indigenous world, and the media is worse. Young reporters educated in the ways of identity politics are left to campaign on issues they have not yet reported honestly or begun to understand. Once, senior editors would have tested their work, but not many such positions remain as the business model for journalism continues to disintegrate.
None of this is to deny racism exists. The Colt With No Regrets, a new book by an old regional Australian newspaper editor, Elliot Hannay, includes fascinating discussions of his relationship with Eddie Mabo and being lobbied at the Townsville Bulletin by the local Ku Klux Klan. Young journalists should read it.
I worked for Elliot in the late 1970s when he ran a series of stories about local soldiers who had started throwing Molotov cocktails on to Ross River under the CBD bridge where Palm Islanders often slept on weekend visits to Townsville. Elliot faced down a backlash from local business leaders wanting the rough sleepers out of town.
Such racism should be exposed. But so should facts about black-on-black violence. Jacinta Price wrote in The Daily Telegraph on June 9: “In 2018 in the NT alone, 85 per cent (4355) of Aboriginal victims of crime knew the offender. Half were victimised by partners. Aboriginal women made up 88 per cent (2075) of those victims.”
Aboriginal children were 5.9 per cent of the population but five times more likely to be hospitalised after an assault than non-indigenous children. “Between 2007 and 2011, 26 per cent of all deaths among Aboriginal children … were … (from) abuse injury,” she wrote. “The leading cause of child death between 2014 and 2017 … was suicide. This is a quarter of all child suicides in Australia (85 of 357).
“Realising that there are fundamental connections between child neglect, child sexual abuse, Aboriginal victims of crime and the high rates of incarceration will allow us to address these critical issues effectively.”
But most left-wing media don’t want to know.
The Australian Institute of Criminology, in a paper by Jenny Mouzos, says that from 1989 until 2000, 15.1 per cent of all homicide victims nationally were Aboriginal, as were 15.7 per cent of all homicide offenders — and yet Aboriginal people were less than 3 per cent of the population.
Campaigners against law enforcement agencies who say “defund police”, even neo-Marxist ANTIFA protesters, should look at a Chicago Sun Times report published on June 8: “18 murders in 24 hours: inside the most violent day in Chicago in 60 years.”
From 7pm on Friday, May 29, to Sunday, May 31, 25 people were killed in the city and another 85 wounded by gunfire, all in the name of protesting against the police killing of George Floyd. The victims and perpetrators were almost all African-American.
Australian indigenous communities need to be able to trust police will protect them. Of course Aboriginal actor Nakkiah Lui was right on Q+A when she said “Just don’t kill us”. But she and the wider ABC, especially hosts such as Q+A’s Hamish McDonald, need to report why Aboriginal Australians need police more than any other group — to protect them from black offenders.
Last word to Mundine in The Daily Telegraph last Friday: “We won’t see change unless indigenous kids go to school, indigenous people are working in real jobs and there are real economies in indigenous communities.”
Is that article essentially one long winded, excessively verbose exercise in what-aboutery?
Wait on, I think I've just describe The Australian in general there...
Ah bless The Australian. They manage to find three indigenous people who agree with their ideology, and give them a platform. The Australian doesn't give a toss about the fact that "their" indigenous talking heads represent very few indigenous people. They are not indigenous leaders.
Real indigenous leaders like Lowitja O’Donoghue, Pat Dodson, and Michael Long don't get much of a run by Rupert's hacks.
JQ....sounds like a man concerned for the plight of his community and proscribing what he thinks is a way forward.
I realise your immediate reaction is to dismiss the message because it opposes your own view and that you think it’s maybe victim shaming , but just reread it with your minds eye trying to imagine a world where the statistics quoted were no longer applicable. Isn’t that what everyone wants ? Maybe what he’s saying is true ?
I don’t know how you’d go about it or how it’d be feasible to establish higher employment in remote locations without industry or infrastructure, but I think it’s at least part of the way forward. There’s a high unemployment rate around where I’m at and it just seems to mostly lead to desperation, depression and low self worth.
I personally never really equated employment with life satisfaction but it seems many others do ....whether they know it or not. More than just turning up to a job , it’s the drive and independence associated with having a reason to get out of bed each day . I wouldn’t have ever thought that would be essential, but in a world where the existential fulfilment of hunting and gathering for survival has been removed for virtually every race and culture in modern life , work seems a proxy for this missing facet of humanity.
Indo, are you ever conflicted on 17th August each year?
Nail on the head.
Blowin, It does sound to me like a man concerned with the plight of his community. But he sounds more concerned with pleasing the political desires of the editor / ownership.
While I've no doubt the facts are true that he's quoted, I think his conclusions are pretty transparent.
His conclusions seem to essentially amount to:
It's the 'lefts' fault for reporting on it in a way they don't approve of.
It's their own fault.
They just need more policing.
Even has a little suckle on that favourite subject of the right - anti-intellectualism. Seems a lot of the problem stems from journalists being educated at unis. Probably not reporting in a way they approve of.
I count 5 or 6 partisan jabs at the 'left'. This isn't really what genuine concern looks like, well no genuine enough to not turn it into a partisan attack piece. Would be interested to know if those parts were added by, or at the behest of the editor.
Blowin, I like a lot of the stuff Joe Rogan does. He doesn't seem (to me, who has only viewed a bit of his stuff) as a particularly smart guy. But he's honest with his views, willing to be wrong and he lets his guests speak without attacking them.
I tend to agree with the guest on this one - from my point of view, the divisions between rich & poor are greater than that between races in america.
If you're black & poor, you get treated like shit and shafted.
If you're white & poor, you get treated like shit and shafted but a little less likely to be murdered by a cop.
If you're rich, doesn't matter what race you are, the police are there to protect and serve you.
See if you can stomach this:
An excerpt that I think is particularly relevant, to the discussion and the youtube link you provided:
'The rich know that as long as racial animosity exists, white and black Americans are less likely to look upward and see where the wealth and power really has gone.
They’re less likely to notice that the market is rigged against them all. They’ll cling to the meritocratic myth that they’re paid what they’re “worth” in the market and that the obstacles they face are of their own making rather than an unjust system.
Racism reduces the odds they will join together to threaten that system.
This is not a new strategy. Throughout history, the rich have used racism to divide people and thereby entrench themselves.'
When I say:
A waste of time is taking the conservative dog whistle hook, line, sinker, reel & rod and bleating about immigrants and foreigners and 'them' while practically ignoring the economic & social policies that are clearly designed to further enrich the already wealthy at the expense of working class Australians.
That's what I'm talking about. See how you have been successfully manipulated to be divided, so preoccupied with immigration, refugees & 'them' that you ignore the big picture. Shit, you've been so successfully convinced of division that you've gotta make your own category of progressive politics so you can exclude everyone who ain't marching in lockstep.
I can't believe low-skilled white workers keep falling for the divide and rule tactics of the elite. Some genuinely believe they'd be living the high life if it wasn't for immigrants. The LNP and Hanson gut the shit out of eduction and opportunity, and then turn the working poor against immigrants.
There's two types of people who fall for this crap. 1. Very gullible people who believe it, or 2. Muppets who are just basically shit at life and want someone else to blame.
JQ....I don’t think you’ve been participating in the conversation with me long enough to even remotely be qualified to describe what I do or don’t think. I’m not attacking you when I say this ,just stating the facts.
It seems you’re imposing a generic “ deplorables “ persona of which I’m not deserving. I’m not preoccupied with refugees , I’m aware of the broad scale determination to disempower the labour movement and my concern with immigration isn’t the result of manipulation but the knowledge of how capital uses constant excess supply in the labour market to affect the bargaining power of workers.
No offence , but your patronising doesn’t do you any real favours . Particularly when it seems it’s yourself who’s overlooking the truth of the matter. Ask yourself this....if mass immigration doesn’t alter labour market outcomes in favour of business , then why do you think the LNP is relentless in its assertion that nothing must stop the flow of humans into the workforce ?
You think it’s the spirit of shared humanity driving Scomo and his merry band to the largest per capita migrant intake in the developed world ?
And there’s the fake left I’m talking about.
Vic Local , you are the perfect specimen- all big hearted love for the abstract downtrodden minorities but when it comes to the white working class it’s nothing but contempt and vinegar.
The same bloke who doesn’t think there’s a blackfella on the planet with enough agency to be even partially responsible for their own condition , so readily describes lower socioeconomic , potentially less well educated , white people as “ muppets who are just basically shit at life and need someone else to blame “.
That’s what’s meant by the term “fake left “ , JQ . Those who style themselves progressives but whose empathy doesn’t extend to the working classes . They’re a pestilence and their infiltration of the ALP is why this party is no longer representative of Aussie workers.
You think it’s the spirit of shared humanity driving Scomo and his merry band to the largest per capita migrant intake in the developed world ?
Bullshit Blowin. Put your hand up and say "Australia doesn't have the largest per capital migrant intake in the developed world". you are lying again.
Show us your evidence you GREAT BIG LIAR.
Thanks for making up my argument again blowin. I don't have contempt for working class people at all, just the ones who embrace racism as an excuse or out of stupidity.
And when did I say "(I don't) think there’s a blackfella on the planet with enough agency to be even partially responsible for their own condition" I've said nothing even remotely close to this.
You straw manning is getting even more pathetic blowin. I'm still waiting for your proof about Australia having the highest per capita migrant intake in the world. Where is it SWELLNET'S CHIEF RACIST BULLSHIT ARTIST?
Easy there Karen.
Is Karen Blowie's new pet nickname from you, Andy?
Surely can't be hair-related?!
Typical blowin. Makes up facts to support his racist opinion. Gets asked to provide evidence. Goes MIA.
SWELLNET'S CHIEF RACIST BULLSHIT ARTIST has no credibility.
The point of the article is these major problems for indigenous Australians especially in remote regions are being ignored by the mainstream media.
Im not even sure why these issues are ignored?...
I can only assume it's because they don't want to bring negativity to indigenous people.
I mean sure we can still look at the other issues like deaths in custody, but when we do at least be open honest and transparent, currently the media have painted deaths in custody as an indigenous issue and implied rates are higher than non indigenous, which is not the case, even the Guardian article i read that admitted this is not true, did it in a way where it wasn't very clear, the narrative also always seems to imply those deaths are at the hands of the police when only a tiny percentage are suspicious. (id love to see stats on this aspect comparing indigenous to non indigenous)
This narrative is misleading and divisive, and as we have seen of late we have uneducated people jumping on the narrative with simplistic signs on the streets protesting.
BTW. Blowin 1000% agree with your post at 7:08
"Indo, are you ever conflicted on 17th August each year?"
Had no idea what that dates was googled it and its independence day in Indonesia.
Dude you are completely clueless and have zero idea of who i am, you always bark up the totally wrong tree.
I have zero mixed feelings about Indonesian independence day, i celebrate it when im in Indonesia.
And the majority of Indonesians I've met have zero resentment against Dutch people, it's a completely different attitude even those still alive from that era, my wife's great great grandmother was about 100 before she passed away and she thought i was Dutch as was too old to get out of the house and thought any white person was Dutch and she loved me, she even use to try to talk Dutch to me of which she could still speak.
Hey Dale, did you get that from the Mad Fucking Witches? I look at the witches twitter feed at times and remember seeing it there. I'm into the witches, they are the ones that killed Alan Jones advertising stream, forcing him off air. They should get a statute just for that alone.
errrrr, I doubt it
classic dale, impeccable timing
not many people begrudge the good intentions of your bleeding little heart facto
they're just don't buy your synopsis and solutions
mumma sorting shit out
seriously fucked up
Haha! Classic stuff Dale. Thanks for the laugh.
Haha. Very very apt Mr Coopers.
Pity Facto's lame meme is pretty pointless seeing the articles and views shared are from indigenous people not to mention we are talking about gaining equality and focus on real issues that are being ignored.
Two down, one to go...
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
"errrrr, I doubt it"
You have no clue, the exact same topic has come about when ive been in a group of about 20+ Indonesians in Australia all from different areas of Indonesia different regions and different class levels and roughly 50/50 mix of male/female. (maybe 3 non Indonesians)
None had any idea i had Dutch blood (and the question/topic was not brought up by me, i was more an observer of the conversation), only one Indonesian didnt like Dutch because of the Dutch occupation but she is a strong opinionated person that also hates Chinese with a passion.
All the others couldn't understand her view and were looking at each other like WTF?
Some even argued the Dutch made Indonesia what it is today, which is kind of true as Indonesia was formed on the areas the Dutch occupied, if these islands had never been occupied its unlikely there would be Indonesia as we know it, it more likely that we would have a series of smaller countries (not to mention they developed the trade and infrastructure and systems etc)
Ive also seen the topic raised on social media and Expat Indo forum and had the discussion a long time ago with my old Dutch Bahasa Indonesia teacher who lived in Indonesia most of his life as was curious when i was younger, should i mention that my father was Dutch when in Indonesia or avoid it totally.
He has passed away now, but was extremely well liked by Indonesians ran a Indonesian community group in QLD and was involved in all kinds of things in Indonesian community at a national level, and he looked Dutch and still had an accent.
Basically it just doesn't work the way you probably expect, there is not this Dutch are bad you are the old colonialist attitude, if anything Indonesians seems to embrace and connect with the Dutch and bond on the history, same deal with Japanese.
Personally i cant understand that whole colonialist v's indigenous type thing, i kind of cringed when Brutus said something along those lines on the other page, i don't want to argue on behalf of colonist or have a colonist vs indigenous type debate, who see's themselves as colonist here?
I see myself as Australian, just as other Aussie do born here that might have an ethnic background from China, India, Vietnam, Japan, Phillipines, NZ, Canada, USA, UK or wherever.
Even if there is people here that share blood with the original settlers or whatever that makes no difference either, people are not a product of their ancestors or ethnicity.
Sorry to butt into your discussion, just thought I'd make an observation and I'm not taking sides, there is two sides to every argument.
There seems to be one side of the discussion making measured comments backed
by stats etc. and then the other side adding nothing apart from insults.
Its like watching a mother trying to explain something to a toddler.
Anyways carry on.
Yep unfortuetly it's not just in this thread, i don't mind a few insults or banter if part of conversation but pretty boring when that's the only post people contribute to a thread.
BTW. Just saw this on the news, relevant to discussion, not sure to laugh or cry.
"A chain of bottleshops in the eastern states will no longer stock Margaret River brewery Colonial Brewing Co's beers after complaints about the brand name."
Indo, SMH reports it as "Colonial beer ripped from shelves", Guardian reports it as "Brewer considers changing name". Interesting the lens one receives information through affects the perception.
This article seems to paint the complete picture.
"A craft beer brand will consider changing its name after a campaign from anti-racism activists and the decision by an independent chain of bottle shops to remove it from shelves.
Colonial Brewing Co, based in the Margaret River region in Western Australia, was accused of “creating nostalgia” for a period in history when Indigenous people “were killed en masse”.
Melbourne freelance journalist Shaad D’Souza has led the charge for Colonial to ditch its name for three years, but it picked up steam recently in the wake of the Black Lives Matter movement.
It appears to have been successful, with an overhaul of Colonial’s brand being considered."
settlers tav next?
tbh, I always thought that beer name was suss
They do a good porter but.
Thanks for that Indo, I don't generally get to read much of what is behind Ruperts paywall (I know news.com is free). I would if it was free but can't bring myself to pay for Newscorp information and opinion.
Case of overreach for mine.
Just read the news article and it linked to a similar case of Coon cheese, with people taking action against the makers for the culturally insensitive name...until it was pointed out it's named after Edward Coon who perfected a process, even patented it so it was called "cooning the cheese".
It's troubling when people are taking action without doing the slightest bit of research.
And colonial? Australia was an English colony, America too. America once wanted to colonise the moon. Bees live in a colony. The word 'colonial' is a literal description of how modern Australia was populated - as a satellite settlement to England - and sure, bad shit happened to the locals, but that's at a degree's remove from the process of colonising.
I might be wrong, but that's my first take on it.
overeach for me too
I see poor old joshy getting torn to shreds, he was a coon campaigner, misguided I would agree ...choose your battles and all that...
I think it all come's down to historical context. which is why I found 'colonial' a weird name to adopt in recent times. i instantly think.... 'who would call there beer that?' and think it rather unappealing...
but I'm not their audiemce, the 20 to 30 somethings, half urban hippie, half libertarian, half bogan bearded hipster is a strange breed
I'd avoid a beer called colonial, I'm weird like that, even if the porter is good, not that I know what that is...
I'm clearly not their target audience
I got called a coon once. In about year 3 or 4. Honestly had no idea what it meant.
Rania, a Lebanese-Aussie girl in my class (year 3 or 4) who called me a coon obviously had no idea what it meant either. I’m a ranga.
but funny enough, there are ranga blackfellas
i think you might have just...
Yes all hair colours were observed in the very first encounters with Aboriginals.