The United States(!) of A
"I actually feel for him. FWIW I don’t think he’s a white supremacist. He’s just straight fucked it up. 17 year old males have pretty poor decision-making skills. He got sucked into the maelstrom as much as the rioters on the other side. But he shot three people, in a situation where his presence and posture was entirely of his own volition. Madness. He’s facing the consequences."
yep
...in a politically charged environment...
which is what I find interesting
your vicvocal's already have him hanged drawn and quartered... (whatever that actually means...)
and your anti-antifa / business owner crew, see him as some symbolic vigilante hero doing what needed doing...
whatever the outcome... there's gonna be some unhappy campers... and trouble...
the fact he's just a kid just adds another dimension
...and whatever happens... the media and big tech. have been dangerous and just plain wrong wrong wrong...
not just in coverage... but behaviour...
again!
"your vicvocal's already have him hanged drawn and quartered... (whatever that actually means...)"
Bit of an over reach there champ.
I was in the USA for the Oklahoma City bombing and trial of Timothy McVey, and am watching exactly the same defence being used. McVey was portrayed as a patriot who made some bad choices. There were heaps of photos of McVey as a kid shown to the jury to garner sympathy for his plight. A bunch of sypkan / blowin types fell for this rubbish and sympathised with the bloke who killed 160 odd people who just happened to be in the Federal govt building he blew up.
You'd think the type of violence displayed by McVey and Shittenhouse could be condemned by all people without the BUT...
Oh and BTW, I opposed the execution of McVey because I don't agree with the death penalty. There's no BUT there either folks.
what happened to ANTIFA?
seemed like they were an existential threat last year.
Disappeared or just not being talked about?
I reckon it's all pretty simple. Rittenhouse will probably be found guilty on the gun charge. Get probation. That's about it.
It wasn't illegal for him to be where he was. He wasn't breaking curfew.
The homicide charges rest on the question of self defence.
The defence has presented credible evidence to support the claim that Rittenhouse was acting in self defence on all the homicide charges.
The prosecution has to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that he wasn't acting in self defence. Seems to me that they haven't come close to satisfying that standard of proof. Even with the rare occurrence of the defendant eschewing recommended practice and taking the stand.
No way a jury could find him guilty.
The floundering prosectors are now talking of filing lesser charges, which surely speaks to their lack of confidence.
freeride76 wrote:what happened to ANTIFA?
seemed like they were an existential threat last year.
Disappeared or just not being talked about?
They are still doing what they do they are now attacking Christian groups and clashing with Anti vaxer & Anti lockdown protest.
Heres a video of them attacking a church group in a park mid this year, even kids and people of colour among the Christian group.
Biggest difference last year was Trump was vocal about them so they got some media attention and off course the whole BLM thing.
Roker wrote:I reckon it's all pretty simple. Rittenhouse will probably be found guilty on the gun charge. Get probation. That's about it.
It wasn't illegal for him to be where he was. He wasn't breaking curfew.
The homicide charges rest on the question of self defence.
The defence has presented credible evidence to support the claim that Rittenhouse was acting in self defence on all the homicide charges.
The prosecution has to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that he wasn't acting in self defence. Seems to me that they haven't come close to satisfying that standard of proof. Even with the rare occurrence of the defendant eschewing recommended practice and taking the stand.
No way a jury could find him guilty.
The floundering prosectors are now talking of filing lesser charges, which surely speaks to their lack of confidence.
Thats about my take on things too.
Whichever way the court goes, it's a shocking display of acceptable violence in the USA, but hey, what do you expect from a society that tolerates school kids getting blown away because their citizens insist on owning military grade weaponry. And it's all based on a centuries old document developed when muskets were the weapon of choice.
Australians, yes I'm talking about you sypkan and Indo Dreaming, who excuse a situation where a 17 year old kid opens fire with an assault rifle in the streets, are seriously fucked in the head too.
Vic Local wrote:Whichever way the court goes, it's a shocking display of acceptable violence in the USA, but hey, what do you expect from a society that tolerates school kids getting blown away because their citizens insist on owning military grade weaponry. And it's all based on a centuries old document developed when muskets were the weapon of choice.
Australians, yes I'm talking about you sypkan and Indo Dreaming, who excuse a situation where a 17 year old kid opens fire with an assault rifle in the streets, are seriously fucked in the head too.
Im actually very surprised that there is not more cases like this.
Considering the widespread chaos of 2020 in USA, rioting, looting, even taking over whole blocks in crazy autonomous zones, destroying peoples business even setting alight police stations and court house's, and then some media and politicians justifying it or almost encouraging it.
Care to name any politician who justified and encourage it (BLM riots)? You can't "almost" encourage something. You either do or you don't.
On the other hand, there's no doubt there was a very large number of media people and politicians who justified and encouraged serious far right wing violence including the Jan 6 insurrection. Are you forgetting Trump's "very fine people" comment and GOP lunatics like Marjorie Taylor Greene? The GOP could have removed these nutters from the party, but they remain and the moderates have been expelled. It's a shit show, and you don't seem to have any problem with the fringe nut jobs that inspire 17 year old wackos to arm themselves with military grade weaponry to take on their political foes.
Vic Local wrote:Care to name any politician who justified and encourage it (BLM riots)? You can't "almost" encourage something. You either do or you don't.
.
The most obvious one was Kamala Harris who used social media to encourage people to donate to some group who post bail for those arrested in the riots.
And no they weren't peaceful protestors, peaceful protestors don't get arrested and need bail.
indo-dreaming wrote:And no they weren't peaceful protestors, peaceful protestors don't get arrested and need bail.
well thank fuck for the hill
telling it like it is...
including condemning the many damning (but wrong) media portrayals of rittenhouse...
(which vicvocal was all in on btw... but now seems to doing a lot walking backwards... get yourself a rearview mirror champ... you got a long long way to go...)
"The most obvious one was Kamala Harris who used social media to encourage people to donate to some group who post bail for those arrested in the riots."
Any evidence for that Indo?
Wow, so we shouldn't condemn a 17 year old vigilante who arms himself with a military grade assault rifle, travels hundreds of kilometres into a highly charged situation, and ends up killing two people and severely injuring another.
OK sypkan, you have some pretty weird standards.
the scary thing is, there's a bunch of absolute nutters trying to turn this shit head into some kind of hero. FFS they have some truly warped folk over there. (oh and on this forum too)
Syppo, the media is calling him a vigilante.
That seems fair enough, doesn't it?
isn't that exactly what you would call an armed person taking the law into his own hands?
@stu , I forget which thread but days ago you told hutchy to go outside , I think he did and hasn’t come back…….yet
blindboy wrote:"The most obvious one was Kamala Harris who used social media to encourage people to donate to some group who post bail for those arrested in the riots."
Any evidence for that Indo?
Instead of an article here's a tweet
Cough cough....Protesting...yeah right.
If you’re able to, chip in now to the @MNFreedomFund to help post bail for those protesting on the ground in Minnesota. https://t.co/t8LXowKIbw
— Kamala Harris (@KamalaHarris) June 1, 2020
blindboy wrote:"The most obvious one was Kamala Harris who used social media to encourage people to donate to some group who post bail for those arrested in the riots."
Any evidence for that Indo?
you honestly needed to ask for that?
or just trying to catch people out?
I honestly don't really care either way... but if its no. 1 ....geez this new world is scary... because it has been so widely reported, I find it hard to believe you honestly didn't know...
like unbelievably hard to believe...
vigilante is fair enough freeride... but all the other bullshit in the media (and from viclocal) is to paint the guy as someone who literally went out hunting to shoot protestors
which is clearly bullshit
and the prosecutor has failed miserably, despite all the bullshit, that says a lot...
as I said before, the kid is a tool, and he shouldn't have been there... like a whole heap of other tools that went out looking for trouble that night...
I don't give a shit if crew go looking for trouble, I actually say good on them... but they know what they are in for... especially when you chase after a guy with a gun as part of some mob rule...
all is fair in love and war and all that... until someone loses an eye... or gets shot... then the law kicks in... as it should...
unless you're some juvenile ACAB antifa loser... spoiling fior your identity politics branded fascism, full retard revolution...
'shut down the police' they say...
but even these whimsical little 'revolutionaries' turn to the cops when the heat is turned up... as has been shown time and time again...
lame
with a level of hypocrisy off the charts
Yeah i was surprised he asked, surely he saw the story at the time???
he does live in a bubble of kryptonite...
I don't think you blokes understand how bail works or the consequences if people can't access it because they don't have enough money.
You blokes do realise who sets bail conditions? and you do realise they actually assess the alleged crime, prima facie evidence, and likelihood of further criminal activity.
You lot are basically arguing people should be locked up (yes punished), for being poor, and that anyone who donates money to stop that situation are bad people,
How fucked are you lot.
I don't think you understand how messaging works...
actually, i don't think you understand how a lot of things work...
which probably explains a lot
Hang on sypkan.
Let's look at a scenario where two people are charged with the same crime, neither are a danger to public safety, neither are a flight risk, and and a judge gives both the exact the same bail amount.
Person A comes from a wealthy family and goes home to his nice house in the suburbs. Person B is poor and has to spend time in jail because he can't make bail.
Would you be cool with that situation? Given you don't like the MFF paying bail for people who couldn't afford it, I'd have to assume the answer is an emphatic "YES".
Vic Local wrote:Hang on sypkan.
Let's look at a scenario where two people are charged with the same crime, neither are a danger to public safety, neither are a flight risk, and and a judge gives both the exact the same bail amount.
Person A comes from a wealthy family and goes home to his nice house in the suburbs. Person B is poor and has to spend time in jail because he can't make bail.
Would you be cool with that situation? Given you don't like the MFF paying bail for people who couldn't afford it, I'd have to assume the answer is an emphatic "YES".
Firstly they wouldn't be charged if they weren't a danger to the public rioting is a risk to public safety especially when buildings or cars etc are set on fire, and it's not only about flight risk, its about recommitting a crime, you can be pretty certain that a lot of these people that got bail through this type of avenue would have been back out on the street the next day rioting.
Because it's not their money and it's not money of anyone close to them, they dont care if the bail money is forfeited, it defies the whole point of having bail.
If they are worried about not being able to get bail money together as too poor and being stuck in prison instead, here's an idea, maybe stay home and dont go rioting out on the streets.
You really are an idiot Indo Dreaming.
Judges in Minnesota do consider flight risk and public safety in their bail decisions. So you're basically saying the judges are a danger to public safety.
And your rant clearly shows you don't believe in any of the "innocent until proven guilty" stuff. If innocent poor people have to spend time in jail because they can't afford bail, you're absolutely cool with that.
Fuck me, you really do hate poor people ID, expecting them to serve time before their fucking trial.
Um no you are twisting my words it has nothing to do with poor people which ive been before, the bail is suppose to have personal related value to ensure they appear in court and dont reoffend, when some organisation pays the bail it defies the whole point of the bail, and these low life scum bags will be back out there destroying peoples property the next day, ironically often people of colour business like the car yard Kyle was trying to protect owned by Indians, cause thats what white supremest do help protect people of colours business.
When Kamala supported this organisation and encouraged people to provide money, she was basically saying to these people dont worry go out and riot, if you get caught we will cover your bail so you can get back out there again.
Viclocal - "Oh and BTW, I opposed the execution of McVey because I don't agree with the death penalty. There's no BUT there either folks."
Out of all the comments today this one caught my attention.
How come you feel this way about the death penalty VL, no judgement from me just honestly curious about your thoughts on this.
My opinion, is that there are some situations where its 100% justified.
Did the car yard that Kyle was ‘defending’ get burnt down before or after the guy who was ‘defending’ it shot 3 people?
Just trying to work out the sequence of events…
By the way, he wasn’t ‘defending’ anything. That’s a cop out.
your arguments are laughable vicvocal
totally void of context and the reality of the situation at the time...
again...
then there's this...
"And your rant clearly shows you don't believe in any of the "innocent until proven guilty" stuff"
bahahahahahaha
nearly every one of your rants tars someone as guilty of something....
not least this last case... how many times did you judge rittenhouse based on nothing but misleading news reports?
you are a joke
proving everyday... the fake left don't do hypocrisy... they live it...
you're good for a laugh... but seriously dude...
Goofyfoot,
Firstly it's had to reverse the death penalty if it's inflicted on an innocent person.
Secondly there's no evidence it's a deterrence.
Thirdly it's incredibly expensive on the legal system.
Fourthly there's no shortage of examples of politicians using the death penalty to be the "tough on crime" candidate.
and mainly because the criminal justice system should be about justice not revenge.
Sure some cunts deserve it but that doesn't make it right. I'd prefer these people spend the rest of their lives working in jail with 100% of their shitty wages going to the victim's family or suitable charity.
Vic Local wrote:Goofyfoot,
Firstly it's had to reverse the death penalty if it's inflicted on an innocent person.
Secondly there's no evidence it's a deterrence.
Thirdly it's incredibly expensive on the legal system.
Fourthly there's no shortage of examples of politicians using the death penalty to be the "tough on crime" candidate.
and mainly because the criminal justice system should be about justice not revenge.
Sure some cunts deserve it but that doesn't make it right. I'd prefer these people spend the rest of their lives working in jail with 100% of their shitty wages going to the victim's family or suitable charity.
Cheers VL
Im with Goofy i think it should be used in rare cases where guilt is 100% certain, for example, serial killers, terrorist, repeat child molesters, repeat rapist, drug king pins etc,
It is the only system with a proven 100% zero reoffending rate and people can say the deterrent factor doesn't work, but the deterrent factor is as high as possible as life his what we all value the most.
Places like Singapore have proven it can be very effective in reducing premeditated crime such as drug trafficking especially when coupled with mandatory sentencing for certain drug weight amounts.
etarip wrote:Did the car yard that Kyle was ‘defending’ get burnt down before or after the guy who was ‘defending’ it shot 3 people?
Just trying to work out the sequence of events…
By the way, he wasn’t ‘defending’ anything. That’s a cop out.
Not sure, all i know is it was totally burnt to the ground including 50 cars and media reported another car yard in the street also touched as were other business lotted and torched in the street and area.
He was 100% trying to defend the yard thats the aim to protect the yard, i believe in the court case he even said his aim was to try to extinguish fires.
Thats why the mob was going him because he was trying to prevent the business being torched.
Is that fact or speculation?
It's based on what has been said in the trial so fact, his whole aim was to protect the business and business, he wasn't there to shot people, he only shot people when he was attacked that's what the trial is about.
Still looks like you are trying to make this kid out to be some kind of heroic victim ID. Just saying.
Well, that doesn’t make it a fact. That makes it part of his legal strategy. Why was he attacked? For just standing there?
Maybe a guy wandering around with a semi-automatic assault rifle was assessed as being some kind of threat?
Just a thought.
indo i'm all for the death penalty for ice, meth importers cos it turns ppl into sociopaths.
however our police would be in danger of mega aggro from these total nutters as the crackheads would have nothin to lose.
Yeah, I wonder how many other random 17yo people providing medical aid were attacked and killed that night.
Perhaps the AR15 made him less safe, not more?
Meanwhile the wheels of justice grind on.
"WASHINGTON — Stephen K. Bannon, a onetime senior aide to former President Donald J. Trump, was indicted by a federal grand jury on Friday on two counts of contempt of Congress, after his refusal to provide information to the House committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol..............In a report recommending that the House find Mr. Bannon in contempt, the committee repeatedly cited comments he made on his radio show on Jan. 5 — when Mr. Bannon promised “all hell is going to break loose tomorrow” — as evidence that “he had some foreknowledge about extreme events that would occur the next day.”
Investigators have also pointed to a conversation Mr. Bannon had with Mr. Trump on Dec. 30 in which he urged him to focus his efforts on Jan. 6. Mr. Bannon also was present at a meeting at the Willard Hotel in Washington the day before the violence, when plans were discussed to try to overturn the results of the election the next day, the committee has said."
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/12/us/politics/bannon-indicted.html
There were only 2 deaths associated with the unrest / riots in Kenosha over the period 23 August - 1 September 2020.
(Both caused by Kyle Rittenhouse)
I honestly expected more. It doesn’t accord with the description of an anarchic free-for-all with bystanders being set upon at random.
There were two emergency workers hospitalized over the same period.
etarip wrote:Well, that doesn’t make it a fact. That makes it part of his legal strategy. Why was he attacked? For just standing there?
Obviously because he was trying to prevent the business being attacked, not long before the incident there is apparently footage of him using a fire extinguisher to put out fires from rioters, id imagine they wouldn't like this.
My understanding from what i read at the time was at one stage he left one business to help protect another, but the business he left the mob was going back too, so he tried to go back to it to protect it and that's when he got attacked, my understanding being he was alone so more vulnerable.
This from an ABC article helps provide a better picture of the scene:
"Before Rittenhouse allegedly began shooting, he was seen on video amid a group of armed men who said they were protecting a car shop at the corner of 59th and Sheridan.
Rittenhouse is armed with what appears to be a semiautomatic rifle, wearing a green shirt and can be heard saying, "I'm Kyle, by the way."
About 45 minutes later, another video shows the same person asking law enforcement officers for water as they ride by in a tank.
The officers can be heard saying, "We appreciate you guys. We really do." "
https://abcnews.go.com/US/timeline-alleged-wisconsin-protest-shooters-pa...
Here is an article with more detail about Kyle putting out the dumpster fire and Rosenbaum the dude that got shot being pissed off.
"The criminal complaint charging Kyle Rittenhouse with two counts of homicide leaves out a key point: Why Joseph Rosenbaum, a convicted sex offender, was chasing the 17-year-old in the first place.
Two eyewitnesses interviewed by Wisconsin Right Now say Rosenbaum was enraged because Rittenhouse, and others, were using fire extinguishers to put out an arson fire in a dumpster that Rosenbaum, and others, were trying to push toward police squad cars.
They also believe that Rosenbaum may have been determined to rob Rittenhouse because the teenager seemed like the “weak” member of the herd and had walked off by himself. They think this because they say Rosenbaum, 36, “intricately” tied his shirt around his face, they believed to conceal his identity. Whether that would have been the case is obviously an unknown, but it was their perception.
The two eyewitnesses, Justice and Dylan Putnam, were willing to put their names to it. Videos also back up pieces of what they told us. There’s video of Rittenhouse with the fire extinguisher, video of Rosenbaum pushing the burning dumpster, and, of course, video of Rosenbaum chasing Rittenhouse down and cornering him behind a car before Rittenhouse opened fire.
“Kyle took a fire extinguisher from someone,” said Justice Putnam, who added that she saw him trying to put out the arson fire in the dumpster. “That started the altercation.”
https://twitter.com/Bollocks_Dogz/status/1300221851197726728
She said Rosenbaum was angry at Rittenhouse and other armed men who were trying to put the fire out with fire extinguishers. “Rosenbaum was arguing. He said, ‘Why did you do that?'” she said. She said the people associated with BLM or Antifa “started throwing stuff at us. Bricks, metal.” They were using hammers to get chunks of the curbs to throw, she said (we observed chipped away curbs in Kenosha).
Earlier in the day, Rittenhouse, who had worked as a community lifeguard in Kenosha, was seen cleaning graffiti off buildings.
UPDATE: Wisconsin Right Now has obtained video evidence that Rosenbaum had a chain in his hand just prior to the fatal shooting, See here.
Video that captured Rosenbaum pushing the dumpster fire shows multiple people with fire extinguishers.
"Additional video has surfaced showing Joseph Rosenbaum and several other rioters pushing a dumpster fire along the road, apparently toward a gas station. As an aside, I really like the way the one carrying a barrel hopelessly drops it once the fire is extinguished. pic.twitter.com/rVmWWFk7do
— Principled Hardcore Capitalist, BTRBT 🐇 (@BTRBT_) August 30, 2020
https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/2020/09/08/kyle-rittenhouse-fire-extin...
The land of the free lunch!
"As Casey Michel’s American Kleptocracy and Chuck Collins’s The Wealth Hoarders demonstrate, the US has made it astonishingly easy to evade taxes and launder money. While the term “tax haven” may conjure images of Caribbean islands and palm trees, Michel and Collins make the case that the world’s leading tax haven is America, which offers not only vehicles to hide ownership—anonymous companies, trusts, foundations—but also ways to invest illicit funds, such as real estate, hedge funds, art, even factories. A new leak, called the Pandora Papers, published in October by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ), bolsters the case. "
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2021/12/02/tax-havens-loopholes-for-kle...
"The news is a perilous business. It’s perilous because the first draft of history is almost always somewhat wrong, and needs a second draft, and a third, and so on, over time, until the historian can investigate with more perspective and calm. The job of journalists is to do as best they can, day by day, and respond swiftly when they screw up, correct the record, and move forward. I’ve learned this the hard way, not least in the combination of credulousness and trauma I harbored in the wake of 9/11.
But when the sources of news keep getting things wrong, and all the errors lie in the exact same direction, and they are reluctant to acknowledge error, we have a problem. If you look back at the last few years, the record of errors, small and large, about major stories, is hard to deny. It’s as if the more Donald Trump accused the MSM of being “fake news” the more assiduously they tried to prove him right...
"....Think of the other narratives the MSM pushed in recent years that have collapsed. They viciously defamed the Covington boys. They authoritatively told us that bounties had been placed on US soldiers in Afghanistan by Putin — and Trump’s denials only made them more certain. They told us that the lab-leak theory of Covid was a conspiracy theory with no evidence behind it at all. (The NYT actually had the story of the leak theory, by Donald McNeil, killed it, and then fired McNeil, their best Covid reporter, after some schoolgirls complained he wasn’t woke.) Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
The MSM took the ludicrous story of Jussie Smollett seriously because it fit their nutty “white supremacy” narrative. They told us that a woman was brutally gang-raped at UVA (invented), that the Pulse mass shooting was driven by homophobia (untrue) and that the Atlanta spa shooter was motivated by anti-Asian bias (no known evidence for that at all). For good measure, they followed up with story after story about white supremacists targeting Asian-Americans, in a new wave of “hate,” even as the assaults were disproportionately by African Americans and the mentally ill.
As Greenwald noted, the NYT “published an emotionally gut-wrenching but complete fiction that never had any evidence — that Officer Sicknick’s skull was savagely bashed in with a fire extinguisher by a pro-Trump mob until he died.” The media told us that an alleged transgender exposure in the Wi Spa in Los Angeles was an anti-trans hoax (also untrue). They told us that the emails recovered on Hunter Biden’s laptop were Russian disinformation. They did this just before an election and used that claim to stymie the story on social media. But they were not Russian disinformation. They were a valid if minor news story the media consciously kept from its audience for partisan purposes.
More recently, the MSM were telling us for months that inflation is a phantasm. We were told that the “2021 Inflation Scare is another in a series of false alarms going back several decades.” We were assured that “the numbers at least for now are on the side of those expecting the trend to subside and then stabilize at lower levels.” Any concern was “fearmongering politics.” And now we wake up to the highest inflation in 30 years, counter-balancing wage increases. Still, they tell us, all will be well...."
".. As Greenwald noted, the NYT “published an emotionally gut-wrenching but complete fiction that never had any evidence — that Officer Sicknick’s skull was savagely bashed in with a fire extinguisher by a pro-Trump mob until he died.” The media told us that an alleged transgender exposure in the Wi Spa in Los Angeles was an anti-trans hoax (also untrue). They told us that the emails recovered on Hunter Biden’s laptop were Russian disinformation. They did this just before an election and used that claim to stymie the story on social media. But they were not Russian disinformation. They were a valid if minor news story the media consciously kept from its audience for partisan purposes.
More recently, the MSM were telling us for months that inflation is a phantasm. We were told that the “2021 Inflation Scare is another in a series of false alarms going back several decades.” We were assured that “the numbers at least for now are on the side of those expecting the trend to subside and then stabilize at lower levels.” Any concern was “fearmongering politics.” And now we wake up to the highest inflation in 30 years, counter-balancing wage increases. Still, they tell us, all will be well."
https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/when-all-the-media-narratives-coll...
Septic Tanks are going to Septic Tank