The United States(!) of A

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factotum started the topic in Thursday, 27 Aug 2020 at 11:12am

Septic Tanks are going to Septic Tank

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Blowin Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 7:23am

If she hadn’t disobeyed the men and hadn’t gone to school, If she had stayed at home like she was told she wouldn’t have been in harm’s way.

Just a flip side. Just a thought.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-10/how-is-malala-yousafzai3f/5806212...

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Blowin Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 7:39am

Three white guys - convicted child rapists, burglars and wife bashers out burning, looting, rioting and attacking people on the street ……and it’s not their responsibility when someone they attack with intent to kill defends himselfafter they attacked him unprovoked and they get hurt.

Because…..white supremacy? Because….black lives matter…..?

These are the uncontested facts of the matter but the media -without evidence- puts a different narrative on the story and people believe them? Even later when it’s obvious what happened they try to victim blame the bloke attacked by a violent mirderous paedohile rather than question the integrity of the media ….the same media who told them that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction he wanted to use on America.

Are people really getting this stupid that they believe this?

This is about way more than some scuffle in the USA , this is about the grip the corporate media has over the minds of otherwise normal people.

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etarip Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 7:51am

Yeah but nah. I can see what you’re trying to do there but it falls a little short. You’re victim blaming.
Kyle Rittenhouse wasn’t the victim in this trial.

His actions, at least one criminal action (illegal carriage of a firearm), and intent (traveling somewhere armed to protect ‘property’) contributed to harm (death) of others.

My flip side was the actions of the people that got shot. Not a hypothetical young woman.

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indo-dreaming Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 9:18am

You can look at it both ways.

A. He shouldn't have been there with a firearm protecting the business. BTW. it should be noted he does have connections to the area through upbringing and family.

B. He wouldn't have been there if people weren't rioting on the streets, let's not forget the business still got burnt to the ground 2.5 million in damages .

To me A overrules one because if you take away B there is no need for A to happen.

Also if he wasn't attacked by a violent group of people, he wouldn't need to defend himself.

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indo-dreaming Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 9:19am
Blowin wrote:

Three white guys - convicted child rapists, burglars and wife bashers out burning, looting, rioting and attacking people on the street ……and it’s not their responsibility when someone they attack with intent to kill defends himselfafter they attacked him unprovoked and they get hurt.

Because…..white supremacy? Because….black lives matter…..?

These are the uncontested facts of the matter but the media -without evidence- puts a different narrative on the story and people believe them? Even later when it’s obvious what happened they try to victim blame the bloke attacked by a violent mirderous paedohile rather than question the integrity of the media ….the same media who told them that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction he wanted to use on America.

Are people really getting this stupid that they believe this?

This is about way more than some scuffle in the USA , this is about the grip the corporate media has over the minds of otherwise normal people.

100%

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indo-dreaming Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 9:24am

Havent watched this as it very very long, but it appears to be pretty neutral professional source with many qualified legal opinions, so im sure would be an interesting listen if anyone could be bothered.

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happyppl Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 10:59am

indo...facts: illegally obtained semiauto assault rifle, with preordained intent to use it in self defence if attacked, loaded cocked, safety on ready to roknrole, = vigilante.
imo guilty of manslaughter, imagine if one of those rounds hit an innocent bystander?
i looked at the tucker vid and read the comments, wow! definetly all nra, trump supporters who justify his actions.
allso how come his "mate" who supplied him the weapon knowing it was illegal has'nt been charged as well?

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sypkan Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 11:19am
freeride76's picture
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freeride76 Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 11:36am

Isn't Tucker Carlson part of Fox News?

Fox News is part of the Corporate media.

so what we have are conflicting interpretations depending on what side of the corporate media you are on.

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indo-dreaming Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 11:36am
happyppl wrote:

indo...facts: illegally obtained semiauto assault rifle, with preordained intent to use it in self defence if attacked, loaded cocked, safety on ready to roknrole, = vigilante.
imo guilty of manslaughter, imagine if one of those rounds hit an innocent bystander?
i looked at the tucker vid and read the comments, wow! definetly all nra, trump supporters who justify his actions.
allso how come his "mate" who supplied him the weapon knowing it was illegal has'nt been charged as well?

Same could be said about the rioters actions, imagine if people had died through their actions including being burnt to death through lighting everything on fire.

Take the rioters out of the equation or even if authority's had dealt with the rioters properly and people like kyle wouldnt need to be there.

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freeride76 Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 11:39am

One of the assumptions here is that law enforcement stood back requiring vigilantes like Rittenhouse to step up.

Anyone know how many people were charged/convicted in the USA during the 2020 riots?

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sypkan Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 11:55am

"Take the rioters out of the equation or even if authority's had dealt with the rioters properly and people like kyle wouldnt need to be there."

exacrly what tulsi is saying

you encourage anarchy...

you get anarchy

funnily enough

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sypkan Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 11:58am

...where self defence fits into that anarachy is now the argument...

the legal one

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freeride76 Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 11:57am

I wasn't watching any TV last year, but didn't they call in the National Guard etc etc for the riots?

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sypkan Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:00pm

kind of...

some states did, some states refused

...you guess where all the trouble was...

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etarip Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:20pm

Wait: who’s saying that Kyle *needed* to be there? Was there a public call up, conscription? There’s this subtext that Kyle was performing a necessary public service. He wasn’t.

Your point about the rioters being legally culpable for death / injury is entirely irrelevant to this discussion which is about Rittenhouse.

National Guard was deployed to Wisconsin, the request of local authorities on the 24th. Rittenhouse shooting was on the 25th. NG numbers were doubled from the 26th.

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flollo Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:22pm

To be clear, he is facing x 6 charges:

1) First-degree reckless homicide, use of a dangerous weapon
2) First-degree intentional homicide, use of a dangerous weapon
3) Attempted first-degree intentional homicide, use of a dangerous weapon
4) First-degree recklessly endangering safety, use of a dangerous weapon
5) Possession of a dangerous weapon by a person under 18
6) Failure to comply with an emergency order from state or local government

This article explains what they all mean - https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/explainer-charges-kyle-rittenhouse-f...

In theory, he could be set free for all charges, charged on some (like 2 or 3), or found guilty on all charges. Being guilty of 1 charge doesn't automatically make him guilty of other charges. In theory, he wasn't even supposed to be there due to the curfew imposed by the local authorities after 8 PM during that time. If (I'm saying if because apparently, the prosecution was unable to prove this) he broke the curfew he will probably be found guilty of no 6 and be liable to pay the $200 fine. But does this automatically make him a murderer? No, the murder will have to be proven through other charges. Same with a weapon, there is an accusation that specifically deals with a minor carrying an assault rifle and it's punishable by up to 9 months in prison.

The point is, law at a certain point in time is one thing and emotions and rhetoric are something else. Although I'm not a lawyer and I'm fully open to being discredited for my statements, I can see that the prosecution struggled to prove some of these 6 charges. But like I said, that does not mean they will totally fail or totally win. I guess we will find out soon.

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sypkan Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:32pm

"Isn't Tucker Carlson part of Fox News?

Fox News is part of the Corporate media.

so what we have are conflicting interpretations depending on what side of the corporate media you are on."

watched various coverages of the trial last night... with various courtroom footage... not one of them showed that bit where the guy actually admitted pointing a gun at the head of rittenhouse...

includung my beloved abc

now to me that was a significant courtroom moment.

...the most significan courtroom moment,... where the defence probed the guy until he admitted what actually happened...

yet one only gets to see it on twitter and certain niche media...

'the narrative' holds

for now...

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sypkan Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:34pm

rittenhouse didn't need to be anywhere

he felt the need to be somewhere...

the rest is how the law applies amidst a maelstrom of anarchy

a media driven, media approved maelstrom

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freeride76 Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:39pm

Niche media?

I took 30 seconds to look at the LA Times reporting.

"Rittenhouse testified Wednesday that he heard a gunshot directly behind him as he was being chased by Rosenbaum. Authorities said the shot was fired by someone else in the crowd.

The account Rittenhouse gave has largely been corroborated by a wealth of video and the prosecution’s witnesses: Rittenhouse said that Rosenbaum cornered him and put his hand on the barrel of his rifle, the second man hit him with a skateboard, and the third man came at him with a gun of his own.

During Wednesday’s proceedings, his lawyers angrily demanded the judge declare a mistrial and bar Rittenhouse from being retried — essentially asking that the whole case be thrown out. They accused the chief prosecutor of asking Rittenhouse out-of-bounds questions.

The judge lambasted the prosecutor but pressed on with the case".

Doesn't seem like a mainstream media pile on to me.

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Vic Local Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:49pm

Nice analysis flollo.
It's actually hilarious that blowin and co think the past crimes of the victims is relevant in this case. It's not like the shooter did or had the opportunity to conduct a character assessment before he pulled the trigger. Imagine a situation where someone did a drive by and shot up a house killing three inside, and then saying, "well they had criminal records so that excuses my actions". That's pretty much blowin's warped argument.
The jury will be looking at the actions of all concerned on the night and also the actions of Shittenhouse in the lead up to the event. Illegally procuring a military grade weapon, making sure it was locked and loaded, travelling hundreds of kilometres to an area he wasn't allowed to be in, and opening fire isn't a good look. But hey, it's up to others to decide this flog's intentions and judge his actions.

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indo-dreaming Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:49pm
etarip wrote:

Wait: who’s saying that Kyle *needed* to be there? Was there a public call up, conscription? There’s this subtext that Kyle was performing a necessary public service. He wasn’t.

Your point about the rioters being legally culpable for death / injury is entirely irrelevant to this discussion which is about Rittenhouse.

National Guard was deployed to Wisconsin, the request of local authorities on the 24th. Rittenhouse shooting was on the 25th. NG numbers were doubled from the 26th.

Well the business he was trying to protect got burnt to the ground a business owned ironically by an Indian man, clearly authority's weren't doing their job very well, if there was more Kyles, maybe business could hsve been protected.

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sypkan Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 1:00pm

that's all been laid out freeride

and it all leaves a bit of ambiguity in the 'he said she said' to and fro...

no ambiguity in this little twitter tidbit...

indo-dreaming wrote:
sypkan wrote:

https://mobile.twitter.com/thevivafrei/status/1457774701673996298

funny, running commentary of the trial

looks like game over... looking at the prosecuters reaction especially...

all that coaching... all that curating...

be interesting to see what happens from here

The prosecutors reaction is gold.

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sypkan Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 1:01pm

maybe tv news hasn't got to it yet...

but they all showed a lot of footage

and not one showed the most significant development of the day?

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blindboy Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:56pm

Indo when you justify people not only taking the law into their own hands but doing so with lethal weapons, that is not any part of the solution to a riot. It just moves the whole thing further towards complete anarchy. I have some sympathy for a teenager who has grown up in a gun soaked violent culture who goes on to do what he did.....but that doesn't make it right.

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freeride76 Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 1:10pm

Syppo that is one case (the non-fatal shooting obv).
That testimony is accepted by the LA Times (ie mainstream media).

He shot three separate people (two fatally, who obviously won't be able to give evidence).

So self defence has to be determined on three occasions.

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sypkan Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 1:42pm

yeh i know freeride

I said way back that this one case appears indisputable self defence, ...whilst the rest looks more murky...

there's actually lots going on, as flollo points out

my point is, the media are holding to their narrative, be it to save face, or whatever... though their narrative is forever being toned down...

if you remember back, rittenhouse was painted as right wing extremeist, ...a 'white supremacist'... who went out to shoot you know what on some sort of hunting trip...

basically the same as vicvocal and his media endorsed propaganda message...

he's more boy scout than 'terrorist'

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etarip Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 1:49pm

Indo, I don’t think the ‘defence of property’ angle holds up. Whatever the motivation, there was no ‘service’ need.

I actually feel for him. FWIW I don’t think he’s a white supremacist. He’s just straight fucked it up. 17 year old males have pretty poor decision-making skills. He got sucked into the maelstrom as much as the rioters on the other side. But he shot three people, in a situation where his presence and posture was entirely of his own volition. Madness. He’s facing the consequences.

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Vic Local Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 1:58pm
etarip wrote:

Indo, I don’t think the ‘defence of property’ angle holds up. Whatever the motivation, there was no ‘service’ need.

I actually feel for him. FWIW I don’t think he’s a white supremacist. He’s just straight fucked it up. 17 year old males have pretty poor decision-making skills. He got sucked into the maelstrom as much as the rioters on the other side. But he shot three people, in a situation where his presence and posture was entirely of his own volition. Madness. He’s facing the consequences.

Exactly. It's hard to see how this kid will be able to argue it was just a "spur of the moment" bad decision. It's not like he was strolling by the CI surf shop and thought, I might just duck in and grab myself a quiver and new wettie, and then regretting it the next day. You just don't accidentally end up in a locked down town hundreds of kilometres from your home carrying a fully loaded military assault rifle you'd procured the day before (even in America).

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sypkan Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 2:38pm

"I actually feel for him. FWIW I don’t think he’s a white supremacist. He’s just straight fucked it up. 17 year old males have pretty poor decision-making skills. He got sucked into the maelstrom as much as the rioters on the other side. But he shot three people, in a situation where his presence and posture was entirely of his own volition. Madness. He’s facing the consequences."

yep

...in a politically charged environment...

which is what I find interesting

your vicvocal's already have him hanged drawn and quartered... (whatever that actually means...)

and your anti-antifa / business owner crew, see him as some symbolic vigilante hero doing what needed doing...

whatever the outcome... there's gonna be some unhappy campers... and trouble...

the fact he's just a kid just adds another dimension

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sypkan Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 2:43pm

...and whatever happens... the media and big tech. have been dangerous and just plain wrong wrong wrong...

not just in coverage... but behaviour...

again!

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Vic Local Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 2:49pm

"your vicvocal's already have him hanged drawn and quartered... (whatever that actually means...)"
Bit of an over reach there champ.
I was in the USA for the Oklahoma City bombing and trial of Timothy McVey, and am watching exactly the same defence being used. McVey was portrayed as a patriot who made some bad choices. There were heaps of photos of McVey as a kid shown to the jury to garner sympathy for his plight. A bunch of sypkan / blowin types fell for this rubbish and sympathised with the bloke who killed 160 odd people who just happened to be in the Federal govt building he blew up.
You'd think the type of violence displayed by McVey and Shittenhouse could be condemned by all people without the BUT...
Oh and BTW, I opposed the execution of McVey because I don't agree with the death penalty. There's no BUT there either folks.

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freeride76 Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 3:00pm

what happened to ANTIFA?

seemed like they were an existential threat last year.

Disappeared or just not being talked about?

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Roker Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 3:29pm

I reckon it's all pretty simple. Rittenhouse will probably be found guilty on the gun charge. Get probation. That's about it.

It wasn't illegal for him to be where he was. He wasn't breaking curfew.

The homicide charges rest on the question of self defence.

The defence has presented credible evidence to support the claim that Rittenhouse was acting in self defence on all the homicide charges.

The prosecution has to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that he wasn't acting in self defence. Seems to me that they haven't come close to satisfying that standard of proof. Even with the rare occurrence of the defendant eschewing recommended practice and taking the stand.

No way a jury could find him guilty.

The floundering prosectors are now talking of filing lesser charges, which surely speaks to their lack of confidence.

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indo-dreaming Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 3:37pm
freeride76 wrote:

what happened to ANTIFA?

seemed like they were an existential threat last year.

Disappeared or just not being talked about?

They are still doing what they do they are now attacking Christian groups and clashing with Anti vaxer & Anti lockdown protest.

Heres a video of them attacking a church group in a park mid this year, even kids and people of colour among the Christian group.

Biggest difference last year was Trump was vocal about them so they got some media attention and off course the whole BLM thing.

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indo-dreaming Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 3:42pm
Roker wrote:

I reckon it's all pretty simple. Rittenhouse will probably be found guilty on the gun charge. Get probation. That's about it.

It wasn't illegal for him to be where he was. He wasn't breaking curfew.

The homicide charges rest on the question of self defence.

The defence has presented credible evidence to support the claim that Rittenhouse was acting in self defence on all the homicide charges.

The prosecution has to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that he wasn't acting in self defence. Seems to me that they haven't come close to satisfying that standard of proof. Even with the rare occurrence of the defendant eschewing recommended practice and taking the stand.

No way a jury could find him guilty.

The floundering prosectors are now talking of filing lesser charges, which surely speaks to their lack of confidence.

Thats about my take on things too.

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Vic Local Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 3:43pm

Whichever way the court goes, it's a shocking display of acceptable violence in the USA, but hey, what do you expect from a society that tolerates school kids getting blown away because their citizens insist on owning military grade weaponry. And it's all based on a centuries old document developed when muskets were the weapon of choice.
Australians, yes I'm talking about you sypkan and Indo Dreaming, who excuse a situation where a 17 year old kid opens fire with an assault rifle in the streets, are seriously fucked in the head too.

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indo-dreaming Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 3:56pm
Vic Local wrote:

Whichever way the court goes, it's a shocking display of acceptable violence in the USA, but hey, what do you expect from a society that tolerates school kids getting blown away because their citizens insist on owning military grade weaponry. And it's all based on a centuries old document developed when muskets were the weapon of choice.
Australians, yes I'm talking about you sypkan and Indo Dreaming, who excuse a situation where a 17 year old kid opens fire with an assault rifle in the streets, are seriously fucked in the head too.

Im actually very surprised that there is not more cases like this.

Considering the widespread chaos of 2020 in USA, rioting, looting, even taking over whole blocks in crazy autonomous zones, destroying peoples business even setting alight police stations and court house's, and then some media and politicians justifying it or almost encouraging it.

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Vic Local Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 4:09pm

Care to name any politician who justified and encourage it (BLM riots)? You can't "almost" encourage something. You either do or you don't.
On the other hand, there's no doubt there was a very large number of media people and politicians who justified and encouraged serious far right wing violence including the Jan 6 insurrection. Are you forgetting Trump's "very fine people" comment and GOP lunatics like Marjorie Taylor Greene? The GOP could have removed these nutters from the party, but they remain and the moderates have been expelled. It's a shit show, and you don't seem to have any problem with the fringe nut jobs that inspire 17 year old wackos to arm themselves with military grade weaponry to take on their political foes.

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indo-dreaming Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 4:27pm
Vic Local wrote:

Care to name any politician who justified and encourage it (BLM riots)? You can't "almost" encourage something. You either do or you don't.
.

The most obvious one was Kamala Harris who used social media to encourage people to donate to some group who post bail for those arrested in the riots.

And no they weren't peaceful protestors, peaceful protestors don't get arrested and need bail.

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Hiccups Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 4:53pm
indo-dreaming wrote:

And no they weren't peaceful protestors, peaceful protestors don't get arrested and need bail.

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Supafreak Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 4:56pm

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sypkan Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 5:22pm

well thank fuck for the hill

telling it like it is...

including condemning the many damning (but wrong) media portrayals of rittenhouse...

(which vicvocal was all in on btw... but now seems to doing a lot walking backwards... get yourself a rearview mirror champ... you got a long long way to go...)

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blindboy Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 5:25pm

"The most obvious one was Kamala Harris who used social media to encourage people to donate to some group who post bail for those arrested in the riots."

Any evidence for that Indo?

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Vic Local Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 5:30pm

Wow, so we shouldn't condemn a 17 year old vigilante who arms himself with a military grade assault rifle, travels hundreds of kilometres into a highly charged situation, and ends up killing two people and severely injuring another.
OK sypkan, you have some pretty weird standards.
the scary thing is, there's a bunch of absolute nutters trying to turn this shit head into some kind of hero. FFS they have some truly warped folk over there. (oh and on this forum too)

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freeride76 Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 5:34pm

Syppo, the media is calling him a vigilante.

That seems fair enough, doesn't it?

isn't that exactly what you would call an armed person taking the law into his own hands?

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Supafreak Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 5:35pm

@stu , I forget which thread but days ago you told hutchy to go outside , I think he did and hasn’t come back…….yet

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indo-dreaming Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 6:22pm
blindboy wrote:

"The most obvious one was Kamala Harris who used social media to encourage people to donate to some group who post bail for those arrested in the riots."

Any evidence for that Indo?

Instead of an article here's a tweet

Cough cough....Protesting...yeah right.

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Constance B Gibson Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 6:42pm

FMD. This is the latest hill the usual suspects are trying to die on? But of course...

A teenage sucker/shooter/killer who was radicalised by the likes of legitimated corpo media grifters like Tucker (Fox 'News' is the biggest cable network in town), and their 'news and opinion' seepage into the (arguably) more toxic slurry found on the net.

And then they, Tucker et al, make political and cultural and FINANCIAL capital of it all. Hahahaha.

Well, I guess there is the Kramer defence to fall back on...

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Constance B Gibson Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 6:39pm

Actually, from this very thread at the time of the killing:

"The 'resurch' work of the Youtube autodidacts. Goes through one set of eyes, and we get the poorly digested shit and piss that comes out the other sets - the brown and 'Jap's' - as 'informed' opinion.

But forget the detritus that passes as content, the intent is the thing.

Take that teenage sucker/shooter for example. Apart from the über-patriot cosplay and Blue Lives Matter cop fetish, one of his other main hobbies was, as he put it, "triggering libtards" under the auspices of being a 'ride or die' Trump supporter.

Triggering libtards. Or rather leftards (especially here in Oz).

An interesting phenomena. Some may say 'game'. One shared in the US, UK, and Oz Well, we do shgre the same yuge media mogul source).

"A substantial part of why I rally for Trump is because of the MSM and the fake left retards telling people who they can and can’t vote for and what they can and can’t think."

Another quote from Kyle Rittenhouse or just another adolescent mind (that isn't eligible to vote anyway)?"