I know it won't happen in Australia any time soon but I believe there is a strong argument for bringing back the death penalty for those convicted of terrorist offences in Australia. As there is no prospect of rehabilitation for such offenders, the safety of society can only be guaranteed by their permanent removal. Happily, most of these scum are shot dead by police but for the terrorists who survive or failed plotters who are apprehended it would surely be a favourable outcome to see them swinging at the end of a rope.
Having provoked a furious response to this thread back in June I thought it was worth a second shot in the light of this week's foiled attack at Sydney airport. Hanging too good for the bastards?
They should be buried up to their heads, molasses poured over their heads. Then, for apparent reason, they should be hit with golfing clubs. Then you should pull up a old German machine gun and shoot them with it.
I honestly believe in rare circumstances there should be a place for the death penalty, in cases where the crime is horrific and affects a large number of people and there is no doubt of guilt, for example a gun man that survives or cases where there is a strong history of serious crime, for example a serial killer or serial rapist or a repeat pedophile etc.
But i doubt it would ever happen, many people are cool with training people to kill other people and go to others countries lands and get involved in disputes that have nothing to do with us and even accidentally kill a few civilians even women and children or the elderly.
But suggest serious violent criminals found guilty in a court of law should be given the death penalty never to commit a crime again and people go crazy.
Maybe you're watching too much network tv theween? How'd you get to work this morning?
No chance for th death penalty here in Aus. But, maybe correct me, I have not heard comments from the Muslim Community on this and the impact it has caused. Maybe that is where we can legislate and get the community to help the coppers. You don't have to be left or right on this. This is just plain criminal. And these suspects are from the heart of Muslim territory. Can we really believe no one knew about this. - give me a break.
But it's all a turnball is low in the polls media conspiracy tonybarber .... according to some...
I've never really given the death penalty much thought, and we cant really go there for a heap of reasons. But, indod makes some good points. Spending $200k a year to keep some perpetual pedo alive inside, only to release them into the community supposedly rehabilitated later seems ridiculous.
Having said that, the premise of weens post is not correct because some terrorists do reform and become some of the police's best assets in the fight. One guy is in the media all the time. It's just some media that don't like his inconvenient truths so he doesn't get a run....fake news.
The other guy that doesn't get a run is iman tawhidi, also doesn't fit with the abc agenda. You'd like him ween and tonybarber, he advocates deporting all terrorists and their associates
But this becomes complicated if the terrorists are home grown.
But this is where human rights lawyers and activists have lost the plot, and goes back to indod's points. Jail is just too cushy and comfy- not too mention expensive- in the modern context, while you have pensioners who've done the right thing all their lives living shit lives in their retirement when prisoners are often better catered for.
It's time for an escape from new York style prison system for the hardnuts and unrehabilitateable. Maybe time to utilise tasmania again, or KI, preferably somewhere with no surf.
But no it will not happen....maybe in 50 years time when western society is so fucked we no longer have the means to appease the do gooders
Sorry for many posts, but capcha is a cunt....again
And just so I don't totally undermine my own credibility, I don't take this too seriously
human rights will eventually lose the plot in the western world, we are nearly there. there are cases where reform is deemed impossible or just not worth the money, hassle, ongoing commitment, and the results is that those people languish in jail.
i believe that eventually human "higher" intelligence will bring this issue of death penalty back full circle and we come to making decisions that take account of a full picture of our place on this earth and not just simply the erroneous obsession with the concept of human as something worthy above all else on this planet. this will require a philosophical re-look.....100 years away, 500, 1000 years away?
constraining the topic to "terrorism" will lead no-where other than to enable certain groups to vent their anger and divide opinion.
Agree happy, we're pretty much there
They equality within countries is too wide already. Consider the value of a life in Mexico or indo versus a wealthy western country and there is no argument.
Globalisation, agenda 21, neo liberalism hasn't really worked as envisaged
The haves and have nots. The secular versus non secular. The access to open borders and those that now don't have a hope in hell of enjoying the spoils of the world are all contributing to this terrorism problem.
Then domestically we're just wasting way too many resources on idealism that doesn't seem to be delivering the goods.
While many see bali as a peaceful paradise, methods ain't so peaceful for those that don't play by the rules. Village justice doesn't mess around with namby pamby idealism
Sure seems to be working though...even with the gross inequality in bali.
Shows there's a lot to be said for holding onto tried and tested culture and customs.
This is where contemporary arguments don't stack up also. Advocating a secular world, yet the same people seem to idolise Buddhist cultures, the hindu cultures, indigenous cultures, and vehemently defend Islam, whilst bagging Christianity at every little opportunity. I'm no Christian but this does all seem very selective and hypocritical.
The argument about cost is apparently it's more expensive to execute someone than put them in jail for life.
It's just ridiculous the cost of some things these days it's just a mess where everyone seems to be cashing in, obviously gets worse not better once things a privatised and need to generate profit.
IMHO there are so many aspects of life and society that need to be basically stripped back to basics and re looked at and possibly reinvented.
I stil, think prisons should be turned into recycling plants where inmates are made to sort through rubbish separating plastic, paper etc for 8 hours a day. (departed by mesh so they don't kill each other)
If they do it properly as it should be done, let them knock off a few hours early.
So mant possibility, but also so many minority groups with loud voices that would never allow ideas like that to ever happen
Sypo writes "But it's all a turnball is low in the polls media conspiracy tonybarber .... according to some..."
Yeah... And I stand by it..... For a "classified" case, there sure is a lot of information being leaked to the mainstream media.
Now lets get this straight.... The "meat grinder" was to be taken on to the plane via carry on luggage..... Yes, we all take our meat grinders on holiday.... And of course I take mine on carry on, with a whole premium rump of course, because the air liner food is shocking.. I often prepare carpaccio for everyone in economy....
It's amazing how trusting some of you egg heads are when it comes to government and "terror".... Even after saddam and the fake intel'... Even after the revelations of lindt st... it actually blows my mind.... In what fucking universe would a carry on x ray officer not query a meat mincer being taken on board?? I had the full run down for taking my "waterpik" on carry on.... You can't even get through with a nail file...
This is all propaganda bullshit.
Apparently they already did try to take a meat grinder on a flight and it didn't get past check in.
BTW. People take or attempt to take all kinds of weird shit on planes, just because it seems crazy or goes against logic to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen, i mean i have to admit years ago i thought id try to take an old 9hp Suzuki outboard over to Indo as checked baggage, but after some enquiries even if cleaned of all fuel, it wasn't allowed as is a combustable engine, i then looked into Ship freight and the price was actually quite reasonable but i decided against it just because of the fees i might have to pay at the Indonesian end to collect it.
Here I was working in the veg patch and I heard a
..... and then I figured it was another 1/2 baked Swellnet forum topic off and racing with a packed field of contenders ......
Well for starters my money is on Sheepdog even at short odds, not sure why Trump is whinging so much about leaks when nothing is kept from the press here when it comes to saving Talcum Malcolm's bacon.
Planes and carry on. Old mate took a spent machine gun case (turned into a bottle opener) on a domestic flight last year. I was with him when it was scanned and it caused all the alarms and bells to go off but once examined was given back to him and off he flew.
Death penalties. Well jail is meant to provide rehabilitation but increasingly the conservative press and side of politics want (demand) punishment only. How to harden a crim 101. Anyway, for people beyond rehabilitation I understand why people are calling for the death penalty but where is that line drawn? It is noted that the countries that provide rehabilitation to their prisoners have the lowest rates of reoffending and the smallest prison populations.
That said goodbye
"Now lets get this straight.... The "meat grinder" was to be taken on to the plane via carry on luggage..... Yes, we all take our meat grinders on holiday.... And of course I take mine on carry on, with a whole premium rump of course, because the air liner food is shocking.. I often prepare carpaccio for everyone in economy...."
ahhhhaaaahha. just the image of that is hilarious. in fact I got a carving knife from sydney to perth AND BACK a few years ago. didnt know i was carrying it and nor did they question it.
and yet month ago i got busted for a lone self-drilling screw. a 25mm screw FFS! what was I going to do with it? pull out my cordless and lock myself in the toilet?
though i do believe this alleged terrorist act to be true I also believe way too much is being made of it. it sounds they were pretty amateurish really. a meat grinder, cmon? it even sounds stupid.
told ya.....isolate the discussion to terrorism and look what happens!
Aaaaand...... Then there's the weens predictably idiotic statement "Death penalty for terrorists"
Yes..... The suicide bomber is strapping on his grenade vest, but then thinks "oh no, if I get caught, i might DIE!!!!!".... I better not do this!!"..... Hate to be sentenced to death.
Imbecile..... Iraq and Afghanistan have the death penalty, but there are suicide bombers in markets every day.... The kingpins simply recruit young men willing to die via word of mouth.
If Australia brings in the death penalty due to "terrorism", ISIS will celebrate. It will be a victory. They would've changed they way we live.
...... and don't they get 100 virgins on death, man wouldn't that make their day?
To Sd, i-d, GS, and ha$, You all express my sentiments exactly.
You shine light on a dark place, and it renews my hope for a wiser world..
That little slur wasn't aimed at you in particular sheepdog. I've got a heap of mates of Facebook that trot out the same tired old memes every time there's a terrorist attack. Interestingly none of them know anything about Islam...and it shows...
While guysmiley is right when he says you have more chance of dying in an accident, or falling off a ladder, or getting a bee sting, etc., or accidently falling off a ladder because you're stung by a bee, blah blah blah...
What this very simplistic argument fails to account for is the billions of dollars of resources focused on preventing terrorism. The UK example is prime, they literally don't have the resources to monitor the people of concern.
And while I agree governments will capitalise on terrorist concerns, I find it most unbelievable that they would concoct a threat and plot just for political gain
It also doesn't account for the civil liberties already lost, and some of the more pathetic (somewhat fruitless) things we must put up with daily, like plastic knifes and forks on planes, restrictions on liquids- putting them in zip lock bags etc, not allowing ding tape in your carry on, worrying if my fins will get through carry on, worrying where to pack my legrope etc
"IMHO there are so many aspects of life and society that need to be basically stripped back to basics and re looked at and possibly reinvented."
ain't that the truth!!!
If the left wants to gain back any credibility they need to focus all their energies on the two things that matter - education and health. Quit the rest of the manufactured outrage, faux causes, and the rest of the bullshit.
Education and health are all that matters at the end of the day. And these two things are what feed inequality, and what give the impression of gross inequality.
Blowin hit the nail on the head about two years ago. We really do not need a south American cultural appreciation society in australia, or whatever it was.
South American culture is doing just fine....in south America ...
Really is quite amazing how you can contort any post or comment into a left bashing exercise.
In twenty years we've lost worker's rights to the point where wages have stagnated for a decade, inequality has increased from crevice to canyon, and privatized profits and socialised gains is the corporate creed....in short, Australian society has undergone an inexorable but wholesale slide to the right, yet it's "the left" that has to keep justifying themselves to you.
Sheepshagger, keep your head in the sand mate. Your bleeding heart defence of terrorists is exactly what undermines our efforts to stop their attacks. The more you down-play their actions and criticise us, the stronger they grow. It's also moronic to say ISIS will celebrate if we execute the pricks - there would be a weakening of their network - but again you seem to know how everything really works. As for sypkan, one reformed terrorist doesn't justify keeping 100's of the bastards in jail, waiting patiently for their chance to wreak vengeance on the kaffir.
"Socialised losses", Stu-bags..."pains" even.
Speaking of which, what would you expect in a thread titled "death penalty for tourists"? Painful.
Blowie! Where the bloody hell are ya?
How's that old chestnut go? "If your only tool is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail."
Seppo's got one righteous nail-gun in his toolbox. Rapid-firing the problems and the solutions simultaneously. Quite a dodgy construction ensues!
25 years of abandonment requires a lot of therapy
Workers representation should be in there obviously, but I'm not sure that's what unions do these days, they're obsessed with petty causes too.
As should the environment, if they could possibly broaden their perspective, and quit with the fruitless argument of either/or
I like your post on political and social issues Sypkan you express the way i often feel but I'm often not the best at expressing myself, i don't see your post as right wing i think they are more balanced more towards the centre maybe just sitting a little right.
And i know you just like to stir the leftie pot a little :P
Its really is so tiring sometimes rehashing the some old ......
What is right, centre, left?
If you are specifically looking at Australian politics what people here and elsewhere consider "the centre" now is actually "far right" in historical terms.
Australian politics took a slight turn to the right under Hawke and Keating and massively so under and since Howard. Rudd/Gillard didn't reverse the trend started under Howard. Abbott wanted to escalate the move to the right (first two budgets) and Talcum Malcolm is trying to go back to what pundits are calling the "sensible centre" which is #fakenews.
Look at what governments have done in the 80s, 90s and 2000s not what politicians have said. Look at the facts not what Uncle Rupert serves up in his daily rags.
This shift to the right here has also occurred in the UK (Blair was effectively a Tory PM for God's sake) and most certainly in happened in spades in the US under the Bushs and even Clinton.
What Corbyn and Sanders most recently talked about would have been considered middle of the road policy positions up to the late 70s or early 80s.
So all this leftist agenda stuff is simple bullshit designed to entertain the dim witted. Australia is being fucked before your distracted eyes.
While I don't dispute anything you've written guysmiley I believe you have stated a lot without actually stating anything
This seems to be a pattern for the leftist commenters on here, everywhere for that matter. Constantly critical of any alternative views without actually giving a position. This can only be because one doesn't want to be labelled left (something I fail to understand, but I kinda get bcos some do love to label and left bash - a hangover from the 'socialism is a failure' rhetoric times) or because the left doesn't know what's is left of the old school left and suffers a bit of an identity crisis). Yet I'm sure shorten and albo define themselves as left without shame or hesitation.
But following guysmiley's points they aren't really left, they are Tony blair's 'third way'-ers. Either that or they present a middle of the road position just to not isolate voters.
Having said that, we are now in this curious position where the left is 'third way' or right of centre in guysmiley's view on economic issues, but still a bit left on environment (though I would dispute that vehemently) and somewhat left on social issues.
Then we have the greens, who - with the exception of the Rhihanon clan - are somewhat third wayer's economically (especially under di natalie) but are hard left on environment and social issues.
The results of all this are a rudderless left embracing the third way economics to get the cash to introduce their (supposed) cultural Marxist agenda (the church of climate change and identify politics)
Which is all fine, Im not especially against or for any of it. But I find in the process 'the left' (sorry but it really shouldn't be an offensive term) has isolated a large part of it's constituents ie. The working class who didn't profit from neo liberalism, who have a minor interest in minority groups (despite often being in the larger percentage of them), and who have a reasonable concern for the environment - but are more and more less willing to make sacrafices when their lefty overlords increasingly appear to be making none!!
That's my take on contemporary politics, maybe guysmiley (and others) could explain theirs....without the ambiguity...
CAPCHA IS A CUNT
Again sorry for the multiple posts
But it's the only way I can get around the cunt that is CAPCHA
Geeez sypkan you just made me spit out my martini reading your last post .......
"This seems to be a pattern for the leftist commenters on here, everywhere for that matter. Constantly critical of any alternative views without actually giving a position".
Oddly, it has been my objective observation over many years that the commentariat on the right use this "leftist" term to describe anything or anybody that doesn't support the status quo or a further move to the right. The status quo that I have alluded to above and elsewhere that has drifted to the right or far right over the last 20 plus years. So anything to the left of the far right is "leftist" even though it (whatever the it is) might actually be to right of the historical centre.
At the end of the day its all words and it comes down to what sort of country and neighbourhood you want. Left, right, centre, I don't give a toss I just want good government, government that works for its people and not against it.
"Constantly critical of any alternative views..."
So lemme get it straight Sypkan: the lurch to neoliberalism, acceptance of the Washington consensus, cutting of corporate tax, disregard for workers rights, privatizing public institutions, ambivalence to inequality...you're cool with all of that?
Again I cannot disagree...you have a point
But please define what you see would be the contemporary 'left'. Of we were to move away from this 'right of centre' position
Hint, clue, free pass, provocation
Don't be afraid to use socialist/ism
Like 'left' it's not an offensive term in my book
"acceptance of the Washington consensus"
Geez stunet You getting on the trump bandwagon now?
ie. deserting Clinton camp?
Sorry cheap shot....but valid
Im not cool with any of that. But very few were talking about any of that pre brexit/trump. All was pretty hunky dory...apparently...
I know you probably weren't, but they sure weren't the main pressing issues coming from mainstream left.
Re. Workers rights. I remember raising these things before,and you essentially bagged me claiming them a bit outdated, saying the left's main issue/agenda should be human rights issues
To me far left and far right although at different ends of the spectrum actually have a lot in common in that their views are generally based on emotion,(or blinded by emotion) rather than based on common sense and logic.
Then i guess you have people on either side that are stuck in their views and will always vote left or right but their views are more moderate and have more flexibility, logic and common sense to them.
Then you kind of go further in from there to the centre, a typical voter in the centre would actually be a swinging voter that thinks yeah i like this policy from one party and i like that one from the other party and might vote either way depending whats more important to them at that period of life.
@indo, where here or anywhere in the western world do we have an organised far left party or movement?
Far right= One nation etc
Just right of centre= Liberals
Just left of centre= Labor
That said that's not to say all Greens policys are extreme left or all One nation policy are all far right, both parties actually have some good ideas and policies, but also have unrealistic or extreme right or left wing policys and views and often throw logic out the window.
Off course this is all subjective to the individual.
@Sypkan ""acceptance of the Washington consensus" Geez stunet You getting on the trump bandwagon now?"
What's the Washington Consnsus got to do with Trump?
nothing like nailing your nuts to the mast with strong definitive (informed) statements a indo. piss weak .... anyway except for your incisive view on divided nation you have accurately described the state of Australian politics last seen during early Hawke/ Keating years.
Going to add earlier in a post to spykan that anyone arguing for the status quo supports the politics of the right and far right. have thought for sometime now that the Abbott/Turnbull government's only policy is maintaining the status quo - housing, climate, marriage rights, employment, immigration, taxation reform .... nothing reformists about this last 5 years just a waste of time and opportunity. when does good government start?
I actually think in the long run the best thing for everyone and for Australia is to have the exact pattern that we have.
A few terms of Labor and a few terms of liberal, I think its a fair call next election its likely labor will get in as i think its fair to say things might have pushed as far right as they can go.
Labor will come back in and push things back again a little left, and then overall the balance is perfect.
Maybe I'm the only person in Australia that thinks this, but i think the system works perfectly, really when we compare ourself to the rest of the world we are all so lucky in Australia.
(Unless you are young and want to buy house that is, thats one area where both liberal and labor have really screwed up)
Indo, you're kind of on to it.
The far left and the far right actually do tend to have things in common to the extent that some scholars, instead of the standard straight line left-right spectrum, prefer a horseshoe shaped spectrum with communism at one tip and fascism at the other, represented a tendency of both extremes to eventually meet at totalitarianism.
So Indo, considering communism is at the far left, I think it's a massive stretch to say the Greens are far left - for a start, everything says that they're pro-capitalism.
They're generally seen as centre-left so please don't fall for the LNP bullshit.
This stuff is a little subjective but not particularly, there's a mountain of stuff out there that defines what goes where on the political spectrum.
Liberals/LNP - considering that they're hard core neoliberal and also conservative, that puts them centre right or maybe a touch further to the right.
Labor - have more progressive social policies, some of which are 'left' but Labor are still neoliberal economically.
Labor certainly believe in liberalism (individualism, freedom, reason, justice, toleration) which starts them in the political centre, but they also have a whiff of conservatism (belief in tradition, belief that ownership of property reflects merit).
In any case, Labor are seen as being generally right of centre.
I know I bang on about this but in particular, the terms left or far left are often really inaccurately applied.
so where does the "death penalty" fit into left/right?
Good question happy.
Without digging too deep I'd say it's a conservative thing in that the government sees that it's reasonable for the citizens to sacrifice their liberty (or maybe the occasional life) in the quest to uphold social order.
Maybe there's an authoritarian element in that the leaders believe social order can only be maintained through unquestioning obedience.
Totalitarianism rules through brutality and terror but I think general speaking you couldn't say that because a government has the death penalty it's totalitarianism.
So I'd say the death penalty is a fair way to the right on the spectrum but like I said earlier if you go hard left you're into totalitarianism and brutality territory as well, although this may be different to having an officially sanctioned death penalty.
I'm totally open to critique or corrections.
There were plenty of articles before the election saying trump was challenging/opposing the Washington (Clinton (broken)) consensus.
That aussie terrorist expert that's been on the TV for years said it too, finishing with something like...and it's probably a fair enough position to take, after 16 years of war with no end in sight, and no clear direction....
And one could say he's quite a moderate commentator, conservative and conventional even
@Sypkan, I wasn't talking about Trump and I have no idea what "(Clinton (broken))" means though it reads like Sovereign Citizen grammar.
@Andy M, "I know I bang on about this but in particular, the terms left or far left are often really inaccurately applied."
Can see your point....a little...but the terms predate communism. Marx hadn't even been born.
What is far left or far right i think is also flexible to a time and current politics and what is far left or far right in one country or period of time isn't often viewed as far right or far left in another country or era in time..
I mean its funny i bet the same people who don't think the Greens are far left will say One Nation is far right.
I guess it's also about personal perspective for instance i often hear people call Andrew Bolt far right, but when i read his views i personally consider them just right of centre to me they are quite moderate and balanced.
Im certain people here will strongly disagree with that though.
I mean the Washington consensus is the Clinton consensus, and it is broken
"I mean its funny i bet the same people who don't think the Greens are far left will say One Nation is far right."
That is funny, really really funny
All throwing shit at each other
A bit like the reclaim australia dudes yelling at the Muslim extremists, or their antifa type defenders
And most people are just getting on with their lives thinking what a bunch of fuckwits
"I mean the Washington consensus is the Clinton consensus."