Death penalty for terrorists

Alexander Downer lied about children being thrown overboard and John Howard was grateful for the votes the lie garnered. Mathias Cormann is fearful of rapists and paedohiles coming into the country if we alllow Manus refugees to be treated for their illnesses here.
These are and were our leaders ... and Morrison, on a day he might have made a difference, decided to visit a Coptic Christian service rather than attend a Mosque.

I wasn't trying to be overly prissy about tone of the forum, merely being respectful towards the victims in Chch, dead as well as alive.

The more I hear about and from Anning, the more appalled I am.

All true Peter, and disgraceful. The truth is that Australian politicians share a large part of the blame for what happened in Christchuch. Let's hope the electorate make their disgust known at the coming Federal election.

the truth is that Australia as a whole is responsible , as we let religious vilification to continue , which emboldens our politicians , then there is our gutless media , who haven't got the balls or intelligence (Swillnutters also) to address the real problem , is to where did all of this come from.......Ansing/Pauline , Abbott??????

It all came from the US meddling in the Middle East for years . Then the Muslim world responded by killing thousands of people on 11/9/2001 then they killed a couple of hundred people on Bali.

The US decided to take advantage of a shit situation and to exploit it for their interests by doubling down with even more Mid Eastern hi jinx. A few western countries jumped on board for whatever ridiculous reason .

This led to the next level of escalation - Muslims dying in the Mid East at the hands of the western military, Westerners dying in their homelands and elsewhere at the hands of Muslim terrorists . Last few years we’ve seen western terrorists jump on the revenge bandwagon and kill muslims.

Topped off with a political hay making whilst the evil sun shone and here we are.

Greed , religious ideology , power seeking , revenge and divisiveness. With increasing death tolls on both sides.

And if you don’t think that religion is as much a contributing factor as anything else then you haven’t been paying attention.

And the winner is......nobody.

Yippee !

Blowin don't forget racism....and religion , both man made concepts , seems like the Human race is really doing well....well , well...3 deep holes in the ground , which one do you want to be buried in?

No grave for me mate,

Im getting stuffed into a large formaldehyde filled jar and propped up on the front bar next to the pickled eggs.

Some say the only difference between the two would be the size of the receptacle.

From Today's Briefing from The Monthly

"Like frogs in a slow-boiling pot we have become used to the mainstreaming of hate speech against Muslims over many years. The hate has come from so many corners, there are too many to point at. It’s not just the far right. It’s not just the hate media. As commentator after commentator has pointed out, the Abbott–Turnbull–Morrison governments have to take some responsibility for fomenting it, from the treatment of asylum seekers to stoking fears about Muslim immigration and Islamist terrorism, from bringing One Nation into the fold to accidentally-on-purpose voting up an “It’s OK to be white” resolution. They have to take some responsibility, and pull back from the brink of what was threatening to become a(nother) race election. Perhaps the shock of Friday’s massacre of 50 people at prayer in two Christchurch mosques by an Australian terrorist – as Opposition leader Bill Shorten said yesterday, a phrase that still takes some getting used to – will snap our politics out of it. Perhaps as well as being a referendum on wages the next election should be a referendum on hate and putting it behind us.The overwhelming public support for a petition calling on the prime minister to force Senator Fraser Anning to resign from parliament for his offensive statements after the attack, among other things – almost 1.2 million signatures at time of writing, making it the biggest petition this country has seen (disclosure: I signed) – raises the interesting question of whether there are or should be any limits on extremist politicians. The petition’s author, Kate Ahmad, told The Sydney Morning Herald yesterday that she understood there was no mechanism for expelling politicians unless they were criminals or ruled ineligible, but perhaps there should be. Australia now has a known Nazi sympathiser in the Senate, who uses his parliamentary platform and a supple media – which turns up to his press conferences, even today – to undermine our way of life. Both major parties will have move a censure motion, but the Greens today have urged the parliament to go further, with leader Richard Di Natale exploring options including amending the Parliamentary Privileges Act to allow members of parliament to be expelled.
Australia’s hate problem goes well beyond Anning – it goes right to the top, specifically to Scott Morrison. In an indication of how sensitive the prime minister is to suggestions that he has stoked Islamophobia, The New Daily reports that his office is threatening to sue Channel 10 for defamation, over Waleed Aly’s Friday op-ed that has been viewed an astonishing 12 million times and surfaced old allegations that Morrison went to shadow cabinet in 2011 and recommended taking political advantage of fears about Muslim immigration.
As the AFR’s Phillip Coorey writes [$] today, in a reminder of the Lindsay pamphlet scandal days out from the 2007 election, “conservative politics no longer dog whistles over Islam. For years now, it has been using a loud hailer.” Sean Kelly points out that only a few weeks ago the prime minister was hoping out loud that passage of the medivac bill would be his Tampa moment. Today, he is announcing $55 million to protect against terrorism at places of worship.
If Christchurch was going to force a revaluation on the conservative side of politics, then we wouldn’t be hearing Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton this morning likening Greens senator Mehreen Faruqi – who is the only Muslim in the Senate, and who has been outspoken against racism – with Fraser Anning. As former race commissioner Tim Soutphomasanne tweeted this morning: “Stop with the false equivalence. It should be simple for political leaders: condemn and reject white supremacism and far-right extremism. The problem is racism, not anti-racism.” Dutton’s comments were widely condemned. "

"If Christchurch was going to force a revaluation on the conservative side of politics, then we wouldn’t be hearing Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton this morning likening Greens senator Mehreen Faruqi – who is the only Muslim in the Senate, and who has been outspoken against racism – with Fraser Anning. As former race commissioner Tim Soutphomasanne tweeted this morning: “Stop with the false equivalence. It should be simple for political leaders: condemn and reject white supremacism and far-right extremism. The problem is racism, not anti-racism.” Dutton’s comments were widely condemned."

As I said above, forget 'fake news', fuck fake equivalence.

Not just a problem for Aus politicians.

this piece in the WaPo puts it into a global perspective.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/03/18/racist-theory-that-links...

Blaming anyone other than those that terrorise is silly and just looking for scape goats.

Religion is the problem and like it or not Islam is a problem in this new global world reality is when practised to the degree it is by most it's really not compatible with western values and ideals, which is kind of funny that the left are so passionate on denying this and defending islam, because the beliefs and values of islam are even further away from the ideals of Christianity of which they are very critical off.

Id assume Christianity was once as backward as Islam, but i guess they updated a lot of their outdated beliefs with the new testament and i guess Christianity has also adapted and progressed with western values as western society has evolved, thats not to say it doesn't have issues as we all know from recent issues in media and yeah for sure many aspects are really not compatible with progressive western beliefs.

Now that said people need to be able to seperate religion from the followers of religion, basically you can love the sinner but hate the sin.

You can dislike islam but not hate muslims, you can dislike Christianity but not hate Christians.

I think thats the big problem in Australia people can't seperate the two.

For example my sister is a born again Christian i don't agree on her beliefs and she knows i dislike Christianity, but she is still my sister we still get on well and she is still a good person, but she knows not to talk about religion as it will just end up in tears, but if i go for dinner and she says grace, i might not close my eyes or bow my head or say amen, but i still respect it's her thing and wait until its done until i eat.

Same with Islam, some of the nice friendliest helpful Indonesian people I've met have been the full on dressed up muslims with those little beards and hats, don't know why but they love me...i always respect them, and id never talk about religion with them and if they did with me, id politely say I'm not interested and see you latter.

I also have muslims friends, most not really that religious, but i still respect their right to believe or practise what they do, if it ramadan and their fasting i respect that etc, and id never say to them how i feel about Islam as a religion out of respect.

"Blaming anyone other than those that terrorise is silly." 

Next sentence:

"Religion is the problem."

?

Soooooo wrong Indo. People do not exist in a vacuum. You don't just wake up one day hating Muslims, I mean ffs the guy grew up in Grafton! What are the odds that he had ever really done more than pass a Muslimin the street? Close to zero, I would think. So where did the hate come from? Yep fuckhead politicians looking to grab the racist vote (a reliable 5% I would guess) and low life shithead media owners and their money grubbing "personalities" who would murder their own grand mothers for another million or at least some more attention. If you can't see that Indo, then explain where that hate came form?

The hate obviously comes from the past events like 9/11 and all the terrorist attacks done since and not being able to seperate between these events and radical forms of islam and it's followers and normal islam and muslims, that as we know 99.9% are good people that just share different beliefs us.

I think we can agree that it's extremely unlikely he would have had any decent social interaction with muslims.

I dont blame politicians i think thats silly 99% don't say anything to over the top about muslims, but yeah there is many people in Australia with extremely uneducated views on muslims, peddling fears that Australia will be flooded by islam and we will one day be under Sharia law and yeah that sure doesn't help.

Which is obviously ridiculous look at Indonesia it has the biggest muslim population in the world and even most Indonesian muslims don't support or want sharia law. (bar Aceh one province out of 34)

It's more likely as time moves on Islam in Australia will have to adapt to our way of life, beliefs, morals etc and i think it is and should.

I'd say that the hate comes from mental illness. Mental illness and a wacky internet obsessed world.

I thought indod's post was spot on, spot on with a few big holes, but pretty spot on. Very genuine too.

The christians went through a 'reformation' indod, that's what you're describing. When the church begrudgingly accepted science and modern ways, tempering their religions expectations in the process. That's what Islam is doing now, parts of it anyway. Which is dragging all of it into the modern world.

This is/are the growing pains of a rapidly changing globalising world, steroidially sped up by technology and some over zealousness from various cohorts.

Combined with the military globalbalisation blowin described above, its a recipe for disaster. The only surprise is it hasn't happened more.

I think this anning thing is getting way too much publicity and legitimisation. The fucker was voted in on 19 votes! He is nobody. Or was...I hate to say it, but the overreaction to it seems to be legitimising and strengthening his position.

As westofthelakes' anotony green tweet pointed out, he was destined to disappear back into political obscurity.

Was....

"I think we can agree that it's extremely unlikely he would have had any decent social interaction with muslims."

That's actually not the case at all. Apparently he'd travelled pretty extensively through the middle east. Also his politics were all over the shop as well.

A bit of an oddball that got too caught up in the dark corners of the internet. A professional troll that went out with a bang seeking his 17 minutes of fame. A true dirty dark product of the internet.

.

I just heard a part of Morrison's speech today. It sounded very reasonable and fair. It didn't sound anything like Morrison to this date.

Oh wow that's a surprise....so sounds like a mental illness of some kind fuelling things like NZ version of Martin Bryant.

Speaking of the death penalty, that’s one cunt that it should apply for.

fake news hey?

Really? Yawn

Morrison sounded reasonable and fair? Yeh if you are totally tone deaf and ignorant. Where are the left wing terrorists produced by this tribalism? They do not exist. From Hanson, through Howard (George Brandis - you are allowed to be a bigot) and onto Abbott, Turnbull, Dutton and Scomo, the trend line is into a deeper and deeper racism and xenophobia. The problem is the right and their slow drift to fascism. It is quickly coming down, not to tribalism, but to a dividing line between those who hold onto our traditional Australian values of a fair go and those who do not. Between those who see the unity of humanity and those who can on,y see division. We are one or we are nothing.

I agree that Morrison has only helped to divide. I was just saying that today's speech in isolation sounded reasonable . ie nothing like what he
has been to this point.

Yeh I agree it did, which in some ways makes it even more despicable. It was a shallow, deceptive attempt to avoid responsibility for his own and his party's decades of inflammatory anti-Islam rhetoric.

Mental illness will surely have played a part in this, but it is too simplistic to say it is the only reason. The type of views espoused by the murderer have been getting more exposure and prominence over the past few years and the "dark corners" are not the only place you find the hatred and bile that has clearly also been formative in what has occurred. There are plenty in the mainstream, including politicians and commentators, who keep throwing bones to these individuals and groups, pushing a message of division and fear. Political opportunists who will use a tragedy to push their barrow. All up its fucking ordinary and my heart goes out to those affected.

The Left used to be known as Communism. The Right, Fascism. Those in the middle were conscripted.

Gotta love our Prime Marketer.

http://www.theshovel.com.au/2019/03/17/government-denounces-blatant-raci...

No 3 OZ lunatic -Tostee is picking off his Kiwi Harem one by one...
From FA Shooting Range Tostee takes aim at NZ PM for wearing a scarf
Sunday Tostee grabs a SOLO showbag from FA stand at Qld Shoot First Festival.

Coroner is currently investigating G. Tostee + F. Anning is under Police review.
Both for abusing teens (Both vile violent Cowards)
Both come out guns blazing siding with Mass Murderer slagging off any who care.

Firstly I must apologize to NZ on behalf of Qlders...for idiots & our idiot gun laws.
2nd... I'll ask again nicely. Will someone in charge (*Please) take their guns away.
We're a little nervous around wanted gun toting haters that bully our kids.
(*Pretty Please!)

Really?

Shortened edited text from Indo's posts of 5.09 and 6.10 today. Pure enlightenment.

"Religion is the problem and like it or not Islam is a problem" ........"when practised to the degree it is by most it's really not compatible with western values and ideals", ...... "left are so passionate on denying this and defending islam, because the beliefs and values of islam are even further away from the ideals of Christianity of which they are very critical off".

"Id assume Christianity was once as backward as Islam" , ..... "i guess Christianity has also adapted and progressed with western values as western society has evolved".

"The hate obviously comes from the past events like 9/11 and all the terrorist attacks done since and not being able to seperate between these events and radical forms of islam and it's followers and normal islam and muslims, that as we know 99.9% are good people that just share different beliefs us".

"I think we can agree that it's extremely unlikely he would have had any decent social interaction with muslims".

Do you deliberately draft these posts so poorly to leave the thinly vailed impression you belong to some sketchy far right group or is it some innate natural ability on your part?

Not for the first time I am left in awe at your breath taking jumps in logic splattered with half truths, personal assumptions and bias.

You forever castigate people who abuse you and counter seeking congenial discussion but what do you offer up, as illustrated above, is, is, is what precisely?

Bullshit.

{Edited /content removed at 6.39}

Guy, mate, surely we've been onto this caper forever. Apart from the other 2 stooges - and even that's up for debate - who isn't?

The questions beg for the incumbents: Why? What's the point? More scarily (for them, in the mirror), what's the real point?

"...which is kind of funny that the left are so passionate on denying this and defending islam, because the beliefs and values of islam are even further away from the ideals of Christianity of which they are very critical off."

That's why

Because you all bag the hell out of christianity at every opportunity, every gratuitous minute opportunity, and you have never, NEVER EVER EVER, raised a single point at all about the shortcomings of islam.

Just the usual hypocrisy of the left.

That's why...

If you're going to bag religion, at least have some standards or consistency across the board

Well sypkan, you and the rest do such a great job of demeaning Islam that it would just be a waste of energy for us to attempt to add anything. There are a couple of other reasons also. The first is that Christianity is the dominant religion in Australia and we have suffered under a number of pious idiots as PM who have placed their personal beliefs above the well being of the community, often in highly insulting ways. Muslims, on the other hand, are a minority who have suffered criticism and abuse for their beliefs from those same self-righteous Christian arsehole politicians mentioned above. The second reason is philosophical. The Christian God is dead. Nietzsche noticed this over a hundred years ago. Individuals claim to believe, and maybe they do, but the culture does not and has not for a long time. Allah, on the available evidence, would seem to be very much alive culturally and in the beliefs of individual. So yeh, it is OK to bash Christianity because it is a dead culture that only those trapped in anachronistic 19th century thinking, cling to.

Sypkan, it's this sort of binary thinking that lead to this and many other atrocities: us vs them, left vs right, Christian vs Muslim. Why perpetuate the myth that there are only 2 possible ways (and only one "correct" way) to see the world?

This is all a distraction, let' s talk about the importance of strong and clear leadership and the absence of it, of the role of the media in stoking people's fears and the importance of words.

Finally, some reflection on the sources of Islamophobia.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/17/australians-are-as...

https://www.theage.com.au/national/calling-out-those-who-created-a-toxic...

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/the-overton-window-how-white-...

That's enough but there is plenty more out there (I'm hoping also in the paywalled Murdoch press??) ... in the absence of strong political leadership on matters like this, like osmosis, the void is and has been filled by the far right. That's the issue.

Ha ha...yeah Guy

Bury your head in the sand, then blame leadership.

Completely unbelievable.

People like you are part of the problem you are in denial of the real root causes, happy to call Christianity out for it's outdated views, but when Islam is critiqued for not being compatible with modern western society.

It's far right hate speech and Islamophobia

BTW. Cutting and pasting the parts of my post that you pick and choose, is completely missing a very import part of the discussion.

That you can basically not agree with a religion and think its outdated and not compatible with western society and values, but that does not at all mean that you have to dislike it's followers in any way and you can still respect their right to beliefs and practise their beliefs. (although that said many aspects of islam practised around the world are not legal in Australia, like under age marriage and polygamy etc)

Maybe this is something I've learnt from my wife and other non muslim Indonesians who have strong friendships with muslims including family but are still the most critical people of Islam i know because they have suffered under its dominance in Indonesian society, and as we know Islam in Indonesia is very moderate on a world scale although some suggest this is changing.

IMHO its really important as a society to critique any religion to ensure it adapts to modern values, and you have no problem doing this with Christianity but with Islam, completely different????

Why is it because you fear being labeled Islamphopic or a red neck?

"Well sypkan, you and the rest do such a great job of demeaning Islam that it would just be a waste of energy for us to attempt to add anything. "

An example wouldn't go astray if you're going to make claims like this. Got an example?

" The first is that Christianity is the dominant religion in Australia and we have suffered under a number of pious idiots as PM who have placed their personal beliefs above the well being of the community, often in highly insulting ways. Muslims"

I agree with this, but people’s beliefs aren't going anywhere. Every country's politicians frame issues through their cultural lens, that's just something you have to work with, be it christian, islam, hindu, whatever. Wishing it away won't address anything. Again, there's never a critical word from certain folk, even about places as messed up as saudi arabia and their associated cultural lens. it's so fucking stark and hypocritical it hurts.

"The Christian God is dead. Nietzsche noticed this over a hundred years ago. Individuals claim to believe, and maybe they do, but the culture does not and has not for a long time. Allah, on the available evidence, would seem to be very much alive culturally and in the beliefs of individual. So yeh, it is OK to bash Christianity because it is a dead culture that only those trapped in anachronistic 19th century thinking, cling to."

A lot of wishful thinking there.

I get it that your 70s progressive perspective envisioned that christianity would have little relevance in this day and age, I kind of thought the same, but the reality is quite different. An unfortunate inconvenience, but one you have to work with given the reality.

People are clinging to it. People are re-entering it. People are re-inventing it. It ain't going anywhere.

@Blindboy what a load of garbage, sadly all religion is alive Christianity and Islam, and they really worship the same God, Allah is just arabic for god, many Christians around the world including my wife use the word Allah too for God in relation to Christianity.

As for this last line

"So yeh, it is OK to bash Christianity because it is a dead culture that only those trapped in anachronistic 19th century thinking, cling to."

So are you suggesting the beliefs of Islam are more progressive than Christianity?

Back into it nice and early lads, beautiful

"Sypkan, it's this sort of binary thinking that lead to this and many other atrocities: us vs them, left vs right, Christian vs Muslim. Why perpetuate the myth that there are only 2 possible ways (and only one "correct" way) to see the world?"

I don't Ihink I have ever perpetuated...."the myth that there are only 2 possible ways (and only one "correct" way) to see the world?"

Quitte the opposite actually.

Indo identifying Allah with the Christian God is not exactly mainstream Islam. No I am not suggesting that Islam is more progressive. Christianity helped a create a culture in which it had no place by accepting enlightenment values. Islam has not done that. They have taken different trajectories the result of which is the slow death of Christianity in western culture while Islam, as yet, seems to survive.

Christianity is no where near dead.

Claiming justification for bashing one religion over another is bullshit. It’s based on your personal feelings and nothing more.

The US attacks on Mid East were based as much on religious ideology as they were greed. The attacks by Muslims against the west were based as much on ideology as revenge.

It is a religious war but everyone is loathe to accept it because they’re not personally religious and to express that viewpoint is to risk inadvertently accusing those peaceful practitioners of both religions.

BB God is dead , haha , I can tell you for a fact Nietzsche is dead as are his ideas , keep the religious vilification up , even though you confess to worshipping your nature God ......no difference between a racist and religious vilification , both man made ideas , when I read all the posts here it easy to see where the hate and vitirol comes from!

genuine question- has anyone on this thread changed their opinion about any of the topics discussed across 7 web pages?

@indo,

you cannot make broad brush statements like those from yesterday and think it's anywhere near reasonable or represents a considered contribution. Seriously, go back and read what you said, you even directly contradict yourself ffs.

To conflate religious practice in Muslim countries to the daily lives, religious practice and aspirations of Muslims living here/in NZ is a smoke screen. I could list possibly 100s of things I do not like about the religious or cultural practices of countries around the world but that has nothing to do with the reasons there was a far right terrorist attack in NZ.

This is all a deliberate smoke screen to divert attention away from the real issue and that's what we should be talking about - far right terrorism.

haha

A good question ojackojacko.

I suspect no, because we are debating belief, and belief is right up at the top of our uncrushable biases. Even for those 'non religious'.

I just find it incredibly frustrating that the same people who costantly claim denialism, confirmation bias, and false equivelance are the biggest peddlers of said conditions.

My mind has a changed a little.

Christian bashing and islam issues denialism were mild irritations, but as the 'debate' developed into its usual corners - as it aleays does - they become increasingly irritating.

"....no difference between a racist and religious vilification , both man made ideas , when I read all the posts here it easy to see where the hate and vitirol comes from!"

This is so true.

The hate and vitriol from both sides is astounding. Everyone just needs to chill out with the self righteous dogma.

Given the nature of the debate, I think all concerned have, with only the odd lapse, maintained a reasonable standard, Yeh a bit of mockery here and there and plenty of barbed comments but we're not in Sunday School so it is all good healthy stuff. People keep saying on TV that we need to have a conversation about this stuff but then it gets shut down ........ while here we are going head on into it! Keep it coming! I'll get around to Nietzsche later.

To coin a phrase from Indo....like it or not we don't need more overtly religious people in our country, Christian or Muslim. It's bad enough as it is to see the likes of Howard so passionate in his beliefs that he's willing to overlook the obvious.

blindboy you may not like tbb delving too deep but as to association with Nietzsche.
Police Protection prevents me/any from naming names.(I have removed earlier post).
I only trust a certain name does not appear in link otherwise I shall instantly delete it.
https://twitter.com/drummergirl6688

Not just white/christian politicians making political hay from fear.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/18/erdogan-shows-christchurch...