I know it won't happen in Australia any time soon but I believe there is a strong argument for bringing back the death penalty for those convicted of terrorist offences in Australia. As there is no prospect of rehabilitation for such offenders, the safety of society can only be guaranteed by their permanent removal. Happily, most of these scum are shot dead by police but for the terrorists who survive or failed plotters who are apprehended it would surely be a favourable outcome to see them swinging at the end of a rope.
Nietzsche has been the main philosophical influence on mainstream western thinking for more than a hundred years. If you discuss their personal beliefs with non-religious people, almost all their thinking comes, usually unknowingly, from Nietzsche's ideas. Most theologians echo his concern for the problem of morality once people stop believing in God, the difference being they offer no solutions, he does.
I was called out perhaps partly on Paddock/Tarrant Templar connect...
A world away quote about the Sphinx having eyes...(Why shout out that one?)
Recall LA hunter Paddocks harvest Moon offering lay at the feet of the Sphinx.
Hard to deny new breed of slaughter house killers are students of Templar school.
Hardly a conspiracy as it's still left up there on the Blackboard for all class to see.
I will add a bit to that to clarify some confusion about his work. Nietzsche suffered from an undiagnosed degenerative disease that caused him to go mad. He had suffered all his life from a variety of symptoms including severe headaches brought on by extended writing. This is why he wrote in aphorisms. While he was incapacitated and after his death his sister took control of his unpublished material. "The Will To Power" was to all intents and purposes, written by her but is still published under his name. Nietzsche himself fought against anti-Semitism through-out his life but his sister was anti-Semitic and became a fervent supporter of Hitler. She also encouraged others to interpret his work as being anti-Semitic. The association of his ideas with Nazism would have appalled him. It represented everything he despised. The point being to be careful that you are reading his ideas, not hers or her followers.
The main influence, BB? Really? An influence, certainly, and an important one, but what of the likes of Kant, Hegel, Camus, Plantinga, Heidegger, Russel,...
As for the problem of morality, as far as I am aware, the theists stance hinges not on whether people believe in god, but whether god exists (Could state the argument as: 1. If god does not exist, objective moral values do not exist. 2. Objective moral values do exist. 3. Therefore god exists.) The idea being that objective morals are rooted in the nature of god (as the ultimate embodiment of good); with no god, there is nothing for objective morals to be rooted in. IIRC, Nietzsche denies 2. but argues for subjective morality?
Yeh it's arguable Pops. I will stick with Nietzsche though. He was definitely influenced by Kant and Hegel but his ideas went beyond theirs and none of those who came after him really had such a widespread impact. Sartre and Camus might have some claim as they were more accessible through their fiction. " I Am Dynamite" by Sue Prideaux is a great biography and a good introduction to his thought for those of us who never got past first year philosophy!
Thanks for the book recommendation. I never formally studied philosophy myself, though I've done a good amount of reading and picked up a bit off* my philosophy-major brother. Chances are he's got a copy I could borrow.
[*edit: typo; "of" instead of "off"]
Here’s a tip - The beginning, middle and end of any worthwhile philosophical education. https://avenuebookstore.com.au/p/unmapped-captain-goodvibes-my-life-as-a...
Gold! Before my time, but there was a short-lived re-run of Cap'n Goodvibes cartoons in Tracks when I was a grom.
"Life's short, death's long..."
I have a question which might be rhetorical. I consider myself a normal human being with a normal brain that has normal thoughts. The question then is what the fuck goes on inside the brains of people like Fraser Anning and Tayyip Erdoğan that causes them to behave the way they do. I mean FFS do they actually care that 50 innocent human beings have been slaughtered. We are seriously going to reap what we have sown as a human race with public figure like these morons and others previously mentioned in this forum!!!! :( :(
I wish I knew the answer to that. Maybe they think they're normal because the way they think aligns with the people they're surrounded by and the ideas they're exposed to?
try this , white nationalism and the rise of intolerance towards race and religion .....and the affects on the political debate...
Very interesting read.
White persecution hey???
Now there's an oxymoron in the highest degree!!
pops, you forgot a few crucial elements of captain goodvibes' utterance:
"Surf's short, death's long, so's me dick, pass the bong."
I knew someone would finish it off ;)
Sharkman, if there’s an intolerance to religion it’s been brought on by the actions of religion itself.
Are you genuinely surprised that people are reacting negatively after the centuries of abhorrent behaviour the various religions have been guilty of ?
The witch hunts , the inquisitions , the global conflicts , the child abuse , the overreach into the lives of EVERYONE whether they were practitioners of the religion or not , the interlocution of religion into non religious governance......
Organised religion isn’t all bad , but it’s been bad enough and overt enough in its badness that the pendulum swing away from its omnipotence was always going to do more than get its boot off the population’s throat. The population was always going to start kicking back. I dare say the fall of the church in the eyes of the population has a way to go yet too.
Bit late in the game for Christianity to cry foul.
Christianity believes that morality is their proprietary concept .....FFS.
I don’t care if you practice it or not. I’ve got a few friends that are exemplary people and they are strong proponents of the faith. I give the bible and it’s stories as much credibility as I do to the idea of a big multicoloured snake creating all the rivers . Each to their own ......that’s all the church ever needed to learn if they’d wanted to avoid religious discrimination.
"Very interesting read.
White persecution hey???
Now there's an oxymoron in the highest degree!!"
White persecution is obviously something we DONT have in Australia
But it is still a real thing in varying degrees in many countries, could just be the cops hassling you for money or in some neighbourhoods in different areas of the world entering the area as a white person could endanger your life be it, be at risk of being mugged, robbed, bashed even kidnapped, or if you are a women raped.
The white south African farmer thing is also a real thing https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-31/south-african-farm-murders/10013298
But does that mean they should get priority for asylum over others because they are white?....IMHO no.
Any person of any skin colour or race can be persecuted when they are a minority.
The Australian colonies were founded by white supremacists who used genocidal violence against the indigenous people. Federation was based on white supremacy. Australia was essentially an apartheid state until well into the sixties. Australia's immigration policy was explicitly racist until at least the sixties. Why are we surprised that we would produce violent white supremacists? Cultures evolve but it takes a long time to get over 200 years of racism.
"But it is still a real thing in varying degrees in many countries, could just be the cops hassling you for money or in some neighbourhoods in different areas of the world entering the area as a white person could endanger your life be it, be at risk of being mugged, robbed, bashed even kidnapped, or if you are a women raped."
ID I don't think those acitivities would be classified as persecution according to the Oxford Dictionary!!!
As for the white farmers depends what visa they would be emigrating on. If it was for asylum I agree take a ticket and get in line, but the situation there is probably a bit more complicated to call it persecution that would require a person to apply for asylum. So I reckon Peter Dutton was full of bullshit as per usual in that instance.
Oi, Dot Boy!
I had a bloody long reply typed and now I'm talking to myself.
I can’t bring myself to wade into that swamp. Was it a good reply ? I’d still like to read it . Or is that the worst form possible?
Be like Billy Idol. Only writing instead of dancing.
Fair questions, for which there are a few answers. The first is straight economics: an economy predicated on growth needs growth. Not even stasis will do. The easiest way to create growth is import it.
Secondly, the League of Nations/United Nations was born after WWI devastated Europe, the philosophy being that the more countries embraced each other, welcomed trade, the less chance history would repeat itself. Rampant nationalism is a base for hatred, and often abused to great success by demagogues, so unity was seen as transcending the nation state, recognising our human commonality in the name of peace. Migration feeds into that thinking.
There are also other factors such as the record selection and the mirror's reflection...
Oxford dictionary: percecustion
"Hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs; oppression."
Definitely can be hostility and ill treatment, just because you are white.
But the big difference for white people even in foreign lands, is they generally have more money than others, and money in places these things happens buys you avenues to avoid or deal with these things.
I agree i think Peter Dutton was a bit full of shit on this one, i think it was silly to bring it up, I'm pretty sure these farmers have much more options than other people around the world and don't need to become asylum seekers.
It was a silly issue..i just wanted to make the point white people can still be persecuted...but lets just agree on this one and take it no further :D
Ha ha Blowin the number of post you leave blank, I'm always curious to what was said.
But Australia , Canada , US , New Zealand don’t fall into that EU project need for unity. And the EU unity project was never about Africans etc .
Surely the economic explanation isn’t the only one ? There must be an ideology behind it ?
Why wasn’t there a massive concerted and sustained push to up the birth rates if growth was the issue ?
No, but unity was considered to be a global project. What worked somewhere, worked everywhere. We're all humans after all, with the same failings.
As for birth rates, "have one for mum, one for dad, and one for the country". Remember that?
I like your take on it Stunet,
Saw this today and I guess its relevant...
"We're all humans after all, with the same failings"
In my opinion we will always have extremist views on either end of the political spectrum. The extreme views attract people harbouring lifelong resentment. What happened in Christchurch speaks to me about a person fraught with their own battle with resentment for their world, totally unrelated to day to day politics of immigration, but that is the bandwagon he jumped on to express his version of hatred for his state of existence.
Last night I commented briefly on the Sherriff & his deputy's weekend shootout.
[WARNING] Tostee brainwashing operates on reverse spin-cycle psychology
You drive yourself crazy thinking no one could be that stupid.
(Eats into yer brain like liquid gets into this chalk!)
Tostee's weekend at Annings & yes he does [facebook/like] Fraser...(C.R.E.E.P.S)
That’s what I reckon Yocal.
I watched Jacinta Arden's statement to the NZ parliament today.
Her statement was preceded by prayers in Arabic
with English translation provided.
Prayers were also offered in Maori and English.
Clear, sincere and real leadership.
Hey Guy - Talk about a mixed message in your 2nd link.
The first part you referred to with a message for unity following a Westerner killing some devout Muslims. Immediately below it was a report on Western military obliterating devout Muslims in the Mid East. Only this was state sanctioned.
I love the irony of Guys new fandom for NZ prime minister, if it happened in Australia he would be bagging the government and prime minister out big time for letting it happen and blaming the government for it all.
I'm sure you've done a lot of thinking on it, and Allah knows there's been many articles linked, but do you still not believe government plays a hand in shaping a nation, and by extension promulgating viewpoints?
Terrorist attacks and incidents like this happen all around the world every year but the worse we have had in Australia since 1996 with Martin Bryant/Port arthur is the Sydney hostage incident with two deaths and the Melbourne car thing with six deaths, with maybe the odd other death ( think a security guard) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Australia
But no major shootings or bombings or true terrorist attacks but whenever the police have bust or raids many start going on about the government trying to put fear in people etc.
Personally i take my hat off to all governments in Australia since Port Arthur incident almost 25 years ago, because the reality is quite a few incidents have been prevented and thats only the ones we know about..
Thats a pretty good record and one people can't argue with.
EDIT: Okay i found more, but looking through these they are more just crazy murders in more private settings (general those with mental illness etc) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia
No, not talking about that. I mean the motivation for it, the ideology if you will. Tarrant wasn't crazy, calling him mentally unstable is a cop out for people unprepared to accept what walks among us. His manifesto was lucid, relatively consistent, he clearly planned it over months, perhaps years, and it contains an argument analogous to what gets posted across the media to varying degrees.
Understand, his actions made him an outlier, but not his beliefs.
You've said you didn't pay attention to politics when Howard was in. But what about when the latest Liberal govt got in? Did you note the first thing they went after was free speech - not in any noble Voltaire manner - but simply loosening up hate speech? People were now free to hate. Think of how that gets perceived in the wider community. Or Abbott saying "Islamphobia never killed anyone", again loosening the slack on the dog's collar. What about Dutton repeatedly demonising Muslim's?
These are our politicians in power, our "bigger selves", and they dicate terms of the national discussion. You could argue that Tarrant's argument, as it stood in the manifesto, didn't exist five years ago, yet even if it did it had no public home in Australia.
Now it does. Who allowed it?
I love the irony of talking about hate speech and Islamphobia in the same paragraph.
The quran is full of hate speech, thats half the problem, most just take it as stories or history and can separate it from reality others unfortunately take it word for word.
If i was to re quotes from the quaran here and replaced the word infidels with muslims, id get kicked of this forum for life.
Stu - Did you read his manifesto?
Blowin, my intention was only to reference how the NZ parliament dealt with the far right terrorist attack. Everything else in my mind can be washed away. How's the yoga going?
Indo, more distraction? even playing the man, golly surely not, but I'm glad you reference AU. Contrast the sincerity, strength and resolve a true leader and the weasel words of our PM and his ministers today and since the far right terrorist attack in NZ.
BB, good post earlier about our indigenous history. Again contrast that to NZ. Until we acknowledge the brutality of the past here we cannot progress and become the united country NZ is.
Indo, I've visited NZ many times, in fact, I fly out in 2 days for another month. My love for the place and its people goes back decades. Politically, they pissed off US nuclear ships 2 decades ago, legislated SSM and introduced a carbon price years ago. We Aussies like to joke about our Kiwi brothers/sisters but believe me the joke is on us.
Im still 100% certain if it all happened in Australia you would put all the blame on government and prime minister, but it happened in NZ so not only does the prime minister get a free pass and have no responsibility whatsoever for letting it happen but she gets praise?
I mean seriously I'm completely confused.
Personally i can't stand her, she is complete joke, trying to be some hero offering to take refugees from Nauru (but doesn't want the men from Manus) and has the gaul to do it with a refugee intake joke of 1,000 a year.
I did the same when Ted Kacynski posted his.
Not judging , Stu. I did the same. Aren’t you puzzled by his lack of references to Australia and the fact that he’s spent 6 weeks here in the past 3 years and the finger pointing at the Aussie government?
By his own admission, he was radicalised in Europe after being exposed to the horrors of the terrorist attacks there , not much grounds for blaming the situation in Oz. If you can’t go off the word of someone who wants desperately to tell you their story , what can you go off ?
Sure Oz politics is up to its eyeballs in fuckwits , but pointing the finger at them is a bit lame , surely ? I’d go as far as to say they are inconsequential by design they’re that vapid and transparent.
PS Guy , not having a go , just mentioning an irony in the news feed you linked to.
Don’t you like how Anning’s bodyguard detail is wearing thongs ?
How did that Anning fuck ever pass muster ?
Is Aussie politics so bereft of talent that we can’t even throw up a respectable villain ?
1) When people are talking about blame, they don't mean allowing the physical attack to happen, but providing the cultural environment for hate to foment.
2) People are products of their environment. Brenton Tarrant is not a Kiwi. No-one there created him.
Watch out Stu .
Are you suggesting that Islam provided the culture which bred the 10000 lunatics who proceeded the Aussie version in NZ ?
Odd how an attack by a non-Muslim provokes furious condemnation from the same people who are invisible when Muslims kill innocent non-Muslims. Double standards?
Not double standards shock that he was one of us...........how could that happen?
Not sure where you have been D-Rex but there has been plenty of criticism of terrorist acts by Muslims. No double standards. There has been more discussion around this incident because of it is so close to home. Not a good time to be questioning people's motives, it comes across as insensitive to the strong feelings the event has aroused.