I know it won't happen in Australia any time soon but I believe there is a strong argument for bringing back the death penalty for those convicted of terrorist offences in Australia. As there is no prospect of rehabilitation for such offenders, the safety of society can only be guaranteed by their permanent removal. Happily, most of these scum are shot dead by police but for the terrorists who survive or failed plotters who are apprehended it would surely be a favourable outcome to see them swinging at the end of a rope.
Yeah you raise a solid point Andy. Perhaps it's too late for us. Did we really care about it here in Oz though or was it just an American thing? I can barely remember caring much about it either way as it didn't change anything.
"It's a special kind of bloke who places religious ideology above family"
It's just getting ridiculous now isn't it Stu. If I were Christine Forster I'd be losing sleep over whether her fundamentalist brother is going to do an honor killing to protect the family name if she even considers marrying her partner.
No doubt he'd be sitting across the table at Christmas brunch smashing a basket of onions plotting her demise the whole time. Or maybe he'd be day-dreaming about the sex appeal of the next crop of female LNP candidates, hard to know what goes through that mans head.
Gaz1799 writes "Isn't this thread a bit political for Wax on?"
Well yes it is... But you have to look at who posted this thread... He's as sharp as a bowling ball.
Speaking of, I say speaking of nut cakes, ween writes;
"Gaz, same response to you as to sheepshagger - apologists for terrorism like you guys just make them stronger. How can you have so much compassion for 'misguided' young men who just happen to kill dozens/hundreds of innocent people in the noble cause of establishing a cailiphate where brutality and inequality are the order of the day? Shit, it's a sad day when Aussies are supporting ISIS."
Yeah, nahhhh..... Cant recall "supporting ISIS".... Just dont agree with your "isis like" death penalty.
I'll borrow and modify a well worn line from a mob you love, Weener, australian patriots.
" We live in a non death penalty country. If you don't like our way of life, LEAVE."
Sorry, shagger, no plans to leave anytime soon but I must admit that your brilliant mind makes the rest of us seem dim-witted. Case in point, your dazzling, virtuoso, yet brutal dismembering of my argument in the following immortal lines of your recent post: 'Yes..... The suicide bomber is strapping on his grenade vest, but then thinks "oh no, if I get caught, i might DIE!!!!!".... I better not do this!!"..... Hate to be sentenced to death.
Imbecile..... Iraq and Afghanistan have the death penalty, but there are suicide bombers in markets every day.... The kingpins simply recruit young men willing to die via word of mouth.
If Australia brings in the death penalty due to "terrorism", ISIS will celebrate. It will be a victory. They would've changed they way we live.'
I suggest you get in touch with the coalition and convince them in your eloquent and sophisticated manner how ISIS celebrates every time we kill their members in Iraq, Syria, etc. Surely they will be immediately persuaded by your towering genius to instantly withdraw all troops and let ISIS do their thing, now in complete misery and disarray having no deaths to celebrate. No doubt ISIS will abandon their push into the Philippines, lay down their arms and live peacefully amongst the nations of the world.
In a word shagger, genius.
Penny Wong, didn't she vote against same sex marriage back in 2010?
"Few people on here don't dig political correctness, does that mean they're against same sex marriage?
It's hard to keep up."
I hate political political correctness with a passion, but i don't really care who gets married.
But the whole debate has got way to much attention and time, Liberals just should have said its a non issue not important, and said if Labor wants to bring it in one day they can, but they did vote not to in 2012 under Gillard.
To me political correctness is a sheep mentality instead of having an opinion and making a decision on what and how you feel you are told or expected to think or feel a certain way on certain things, its actually the exact same thing as how religious people can't think for themselves or decided on things and they just follow what their religion tells them they should feel on certain issues.
So in a sense its almost a contradiction to be told to vote against political correctness, being told how to think or feel on an issue.
in defence of the death penalty its probably simplistic to think of terrorism as the odd guy blowing himself up. crimes against humanity exist in different parts of the world, luckily we don't that sort of thing here. so we can probably think of ourselves as very lucky to not need the death penalty.
w.r.t PC and same sex marriage, im not sure there is a link. im for same sex marriage and im pretty PC but I have the shits with how far our society has driven it. its gone fucken ridiculous in many senses.
back to deathpenalty and left vs right, its been brought to my attention that its got little to do with left/right and more to do with how authoritarian a govt is, and secondly what state of "safety" that society exists in. i remember a conversation back some ago when someone commented that increase in govt authoritarianism is almost an expected (and possibly necessary) outcome when threats to society grow and the people become unsettled. i think it was in sheepdogs uber alles topic.
Gaz, it's never too late for us, although we regularly demonstrate how easily led we are as a nation - it always makes me think that if the wrong person got into government in Australia and pushed the right emotional buttons, we'd turn on our neighbours pretty quickly if we could justify it to ourselves.
And we certainly did celebrate here in Oz as the following headlines demonstrate.
- Gaddafi death brings 'relief' to Libya: Gillard
- Federal Opposition Leader Tony Abbott told Channel Nine he welcomed the news of Gaddafi's death
- Obama hails death of Muammar Gaddafi as foreign policy success. President warns other Middle Eastern dictators, particularly Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, that they could be next.
Probably the thing the shits me the most is how it's just part of the process of demonising the countries and leaders that the Coalition of the Willing is deposing/invading/waging economic war against.
Plus I just think it's really ugly for a national leader to openly celebrate the death of someone - leave that to the opinion pages in the press.
Nice one batfink, that wasn't that hard was it?
Hello, my name is sypkan, and im an alcoholic.....I mean lefty.
I don't disagree with any of it. But I must say there are so many different and varied social programs now that the government spending is spread too thin for many that matter. And, interestingly they are often established and advocated by a certain class (chardonnay socialist) who feel the importance for such social programs while other lower souls on the economic ladder see them as superfluous and self indulgent.
And now that those causes have been cynically harnessed to such a point that they're used at every opportunity to keep those lowly souls in their place, while the neoliberal (baby boomer endorsed) agenda is implemented...well they are undermining social cohesion not improving it
PC is the OH&S of social interactions
Over the top, fucking annoying, and mainly, just fucking dumb.
Civility comes from the heart, not some government authoritarian guide book
It's class structure of the highest order
Like OH&S, It once had it's place, but when you have a self serving industry employing thousands of people with nothing better to than pick on people's vocabularies, we've lost the plot
As indod says religious dogma
sypkan, indo and any others here that hate PC. I'm curious, can you provide examples of PC gone mad or bad.
How about asking a bunch of young uni students if they'd ever been subjected to "Sexually suggestive comments or jokes that made you feel offended" or "Inappropriate staring or leering that made you feel intimidated" and then, based around some pretty vague information like this, making out that there is a massive "cultural" problem of assault and harassment in Australian universities despite young people being much more likely to be assaulted/harassed in the wider community?
@Guy Smiley Im sure there is countless examples, i think we could get into a deep long discussion on examples, but I've got to go do some work.
So just quick IMHO its not always so much the view point that is the problem.
Its the lack of decision by the individual and lack of consideration to even look at things from a different angle or consider another view point.
The view is already decided on how you should think or feel, you are expected to take that view and the politically correct will blindly follow a view without question.
Like i said it's exactly how religion stunts free thinking and individual opinion.
That's hilarious Blowin, especially when Yassmin Abdel-Magied accuses someone else of delivering "a poisoned package wrapped up in arrogance and delivered with condescension".
Hang on, am I being racist or sexist??
@Andy, but that's neither so not sure how it fits into the discussion.
I wouldn't disagree that PC has gone too far but I'm wondering how many people consider the motivation for it, which is aiming for a more just world. For instance, 'faggot' and 'nigger' (and plenty of other words) were once considered socially acceptable terms. And no, not just in an ironic sense but for everyday use.
If you don't use them now 'cos they're degrading then you're being politically correct - and here's to you!
It gets complex when irony is employed (could go on for ages about that), and vexatious where people get offended on behalf of others, but I reckon critics of PC should never forget what the intention is.
Also, it ain't just an issue of the left. Ever noticed how the right question someone's patriotism when matters of 'national interest' (read: invasions and war) are raised? Or even when someone raises the death penalty in the comments here?
Someone telling someone else how to think doesn't get the same treatment when it comes from the right. Or maybe people haven't figured out what's happening yet?
"Students and staff could face disciplinary procedures if they fail to adhere to the language policy"
The best laid plans of small non-descript animals and people. What's the intention of this?
The intention is "to raise awareness amongst staff and students of the importance of using appropriate language within the working and learning environment and also aims to promote a common sense approach to managing this".
And contrary to what the article says, the university "...makes no demands, bans nothing and carries no sanctions." That quote is taken directly from the University's media statement so someone is telling pork pies.
Still, I agree with you vis-a-vis it being an overreach.
Ween I think you're off with the fairies. You think suicide bombers put ads up on gumtree or tell their mates to go find them an organisation that will give them a bomb? They're groomed mate. Groomed to die for the cause through years of negative re-reinforcement and hatred taught by evangelical fundamentalists. The same ones that genuinely believe there's 20 virgins waiting for them in heaven. They all want to die as a public martyr anyway the death penalty wouldn't do anything except give them a hard-on.
@Andy yeh ur right I've probably just tuned it out. The USA has pulled too many strings to de-stabilise these countries for me to take notice when they suddenly start disintegrating. The USA has too much blood on its hands for all this mess. Occupying Afghanistan, Iraq, toppling Saddam, gulf war, backing Syrian rebels etc all of a sudden a caliphate pops up in a power vacuum after decades of war that hates the USA's guts and exists in a stone-age society as bombs have flattened everything and people are surprised?
I don't condone the mass murders etc by these "terrorists" and don't know the best way to deal with them but I do know that if my whole family was wiped off the face of the earth by the USA I'd be a suicide bomber too. Especially if they were meant to be there to save us. And therein lies my issue with the death penalty. Whilst its cheap and easy, its really only demonizing people who are trying to dish back 1% of what they've copped. To say they deserve death is a bit rich and very short sighted.
So true Gaz. Most of those people wouldn't even know who Trump or Obama are but when one day bombs come raining down from the sky, killing their families, destroying their crops, ruining their livelihoods, snatching away their very reason for being, I'd wanna kill every single last fucker too.
Same as North Korea, do people really think it's because NK is such a threat to the West? Or is all this bluff and posturing just a really groovy way of putting bombs on China's doorstep?
Yep Gaz, we just accept it as the status quo, business as usual.
In my more imaginative moments, I think of what might happen if we ever had a situation (again) where the Australian government governs honestly for the people and for a healthy Australia with a healthy self-identity - rejection of spy bases, rejection of foreign military installations, rejection of cultural imperialism inflicted upon us blah blah.
Then, 'you're either with us or against us' comes into play and the shit hits the fan.
What do you do?
Bend over and accept that we're already mostly American?
Live like a fugitive in the jungles of northern Australia?
Or maybe fight.
So then we become the terrorist, making IEDs and in more desperate moments, going in with a handful of grenades or just a car or truck?
Good question Zen, is NK a thereat or is it just the U.S. justifying the hundreds of bases etc. in East Asia.
War is business but we still get suckered into the Axis of Evil/WMD shit.
Tween writes "Sorry, shagger, no plans to leave anytime soon but I must admit that your brilliant mind makes the rest of us seem dim-witted."
The rest of "us"?????
Yeah nahhh..... Most people here can actually post a political discussion in the correct forum, and not in "wax on". Don't lump everyone one else into your nut jar.
"I suggest you get in touch with the coalition and convince them in your eloquent and sophisticated manner how ISIS celebrates every time we kill their members in Iraq, Syria, etc."
Well actually they do celebrate martyrdom, especially those who commit a suicide bombing on what they perceive as enemy territory, outside of Iraq Syria etc.... But a troglodyte like yourself who cant even get a forum thread right cant be expected to understand such things bahahahahaha
@AndyM I've wondered that scenario before as well. I think Australia is just too big and spread out to be occupied. Would indo make a better ally or do they resent us too much for Timor still? Either way it seems the only way to be truly "neutral" is to carry a bigger stick.
The old "axis-of-evil" terminology has always made me laugh, as despite the atrocities reported during these wars, the allies still gave us agent orange, napalm, carpet bombing & nuclear weapons. They only decided these things were bad AFTER the vietnam war.
I think North Korea actually invaded South Korea so their situation is self-inflicted but I could be wrong. The notion of the third generation of the same family being forced to wage a war their grandfather entered into is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. But hey, it keeps them in power I guess.
This PC thing.
What really annoys me is the misuse of language: e.g. someone "passes" instead of dies; and business have resources or units instead of people or staff. I also once worked in a place that had "single cell dependencies" .... like to hear if anyone can guess what that is (without goggling it).
Anyway, that's it for me PC doesn't upset me at all although I fully admit I've had a lot of exposure to workplaces that strongly promote equity in all its forms. I have greatly benefited as a person in working with and for strong women, Aboriginals, people from every corner of the globe, the disabled and elderly staff up in their seventies.
The examples provided above are really odd I agree, amusing on some levels, but as I read it none would personally effect any of us so to Stu's point the reason behind many of these policies is awareness and I would add to create the environment where all people are treated with respect.
I also would understand some would have PC in the cross-hairs because of the Human Rights Commission and its recent history. I see why this would be the case, its been hot news for years in the Murdoch press.
My final point is certainly with some here and most definitely in the media and politics the people most vocal about PC are: male; white; from relative privilege; and well educated (just like me). But when I discuss these matters with my wife and daughter they remind me of the daily challenges they face in their professional careers.
North Korea: American intelligence (is that an oxymoron?) say that NK now have the ability to put a Nuke war head on missile. Is that the same intelligence that told us that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction? IMO the greater risk is with Trump than NK, Iran has nuclear weapons so do many other states not overly friendly to the West or Israel so why is NK being targeted here? China must be loving this coz its taking the heat off them for the illegal annexation great parts of the South China Sea. Jesus that yanks are stupid.
Guy, I certainly think we should question the fuck out of U.S. intelligence.
And with regards to PC -
Thank you SO much for sharing your journey with me, I’m so blessed and it really resonated with me.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and survivors.
Gaz, thanks for stating the bleeding obvious. Your argument is, nonetheless, irrelevant. Why not kill the bastards who survive? Please don't tell me you'd shed a tear if a bomber who killed your family was executed?
Yes, shagger, I am a proud troglodyte while you are...? Your best comeback to date has been that I posted this thread on the wrong forum - congratulations! Go back to your flock but remember that bestiality is illegal in Oz. 'Death penalty for sheep shaggers', I can only hope.
Haha Ween You're right I wouldn't shed a tear if the bomber that executed my family was executed. But that's because I'd become a terrorist too in that situation.... Have you seen the irony in your comment yet?
You still haven't been able to give me a definition for terrorist yet either. If you want to give them all a bullet you should at least be able to clearly tell who they are.
Ween.. Well its a pretty valid comeback.... If you cant get even the most basic thing right, I very much doubt complicated convoluted discussions would be your forte.
But please keep ignoring my and others "comebacks" re' martyrdom. Ignore the fact the by bringing in the death penalty, you have morphed into what we are striving not to become.
Ignorance...... A ween speciality...
We're all ignorant. But 'willful ignorance' is not on.
And revelling in it is piss-weak.
Terrorist attack in Charlottesville USA today by a white nationalist ?
Call it what you want.
But you're pushing shit uphill if you're attempting to diminish the scale and impact of Islamic terrorism using semantics.
I think it's worthwhile to remember that terrorists aren't just brown-skinned people.
Good call , AndyM.
Terrorists aren't only brown : http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/dallas-police-ambush/protests-spawn-cit...
Call it as you see it.
its indiscriminate murder, simple.
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Show us the face of terrorism globally , Guysmiley .
Is that meant to make the population of Mindanao feel better , Guysmiley ?
Could possibly make a few persecuted minorities feel better.
from a societal safety point of view its no different. terror is terror and that is what scares people. its not knowing where and when and how, and who for that matter.
but in the arguments about race/colour a few of you are forgetting what makes Islamic terrorist groups different and more dangerous. its the recruitability within an ideology. its vastly different than a finnish ex military nut job, or a US postal service worker.
btw, i have no interest or concern what takes place in the US. its their fucked up country, not mine.
You reckon those minorities are as persecuted as the tens of thousands of innocents that have been TARGETED and MURDERED by Islamic terrorists ?
Sure , Great Whites may have killed hundreds of people .
But .....I know a fella that was bitten by a wobbegong once.
Actually , that was a terrible analogy.
I just despise the whataboutery .
Not because it introduces facts that are contradictory to my beliefs , but because it's aimed at me.
I'm the target audience.
And unless I travel to the USA I am extremely unlikely to die at the hands of a Caucasian US terrorist.
I'm also extremely unlikely to die at the hands of an Islamic terrorist.
But the likelihood is much greater and it could happen in a few dozen different countries.
Including my own.
Those stats only refer to America.
O'Leary just got a bomb.
No wonder he wins.
Blowin considering that "terrorism, in its broadest sense, describes the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror or fear, in order to achieve a political, religious or ideological aim" where do you stand on the hundreds of thousands of dead civilians in Iraq?
Is the U.S. the world's biggest terrorist association?
Kinda makes Islamists look like amateurs.
That's all wrong, Blowin.
"Yet the numbers don’t lie — even if the Islamophobes do. “Since September 12, 2001,” noted a recent report prepared for Congress by the Government Accountability Office, “the number of fatalities caused by domestic violent extremists has ranged from 1 to 49 in a given year. … Fatalities resulting from attacks by far-right wing violent extremists have exceeded those caused by radical Islamist violent extremists in 10 of the 15 years, and were the same in 3 of the years since September 12, 2001.”
C'mon Stu .....since September 12 , 2001 ?
Very convenient date to commence a statistical grouping don't you think ?
And even then , Islamic terrorists were responsible for greater or equal deaths in 5 of 15 years - 33 percent. Not too bad seeing that Muslims make up less than 1 percent of the population.
PS Totally agree , AndyM .
The USA has turned terrorism into an act of commerce !
PPS - Stu , just arguing anyway because I am of the belief that 9/11 was at least partly attributable to the US government. To what degree , I'm not sure. But inside job definitely.
Let the pillorying commence .....
Well if they went a few years forward they'd include the Oklahoma bombing which was white nationalism.
Not sure about the US govts involvement in that one...
Controlled demolitions, by whom I don't know.
The gentlest slights cut the deepest , Stu.
Watch out or I'll turn up on your doorstep with armloads of controversial evidence and try to convert you to my beliefs as surely as any Adventist.
PS What do you get when you cross a Seventh day Adventist with a Hell's Angel ?
Someone that comes round to your house , knocks on your door and tells YOU to fuck off.