The United States(!) of A
@JQ
The point was more the ridiculous headline that contrast reality in the photo.
If you think the photo is fake for some reason here is video and a source i doubt you would question
It's pretty sad really its super counter productive to the causes of the African/American community as all it does is reinforce stereotypes many have of these community's. (and I'm sure its only a tiny minority that partake in destruction, looting, violence etc)
“The people who relentlessly justified rioting, arson, murder, crime, destruction with "What do you expect" have some thoughts today about vigilantism”
Judging a demonstration by its most violent participants but not judging a police force by its most violent cops is the language of the oppressor.
There are people amongst the demonstrators who are violent. There are a lot of angry people in America and some of them behave in totally unacceptable ways. In considering that though there is one very important point that needs to be made. Democrats and BLM organisers condemn violence and looting during protests while on the other side (see earlier post) Trump regularly predicts violence, encourages armed militias and has threatened to use the military against protestors. One side is encouraging peaceful resistance to the long sdanding oppression of black Americans. The other side is encouraging further repression and violence.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/armed-militias-are-taking-trumps-civil-war-t...
https://theconversation.com/militias-evaluate-beliefs-action-as-presiden...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/13/fact-check-demo...
https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-black-lives-matter-leaders-condemn-viol...
https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/local/mycity/hampton/black-lives-...
https://www.lawfareblog.com/armed-militias-are-taking-trumps-civil-war-t...
https://theconversation.com/militias-evaluate-beliefs-action-as-presiden...
I think it's a stretch to defend one side against the other especially when you support only one parties motivations. Neither is all pure and light facing off against evil and darkness. In addition, I think the people responsible for actual violence are firmly in the minority on both sides.
I'm sure this will be countered and again, it's purely my own way of looking objectively at it, if you disregard the words, the speech, the literature and focus only on violence and mayhem, I think the left seem more predisposed to commit these acts. I'm not saying they are not justified and yes, I guess in their eyes they are fighting the good fight, railing against oppression, injustice, the 'man' etc. but the police and army only usually react in response to those causing the mayhem. With the exception of a few rogue cops (and remember, statistically a white male is more likely to die at the hands of police than a black person) the police and army do not have an agenda to attack people pre-meditated, they're tasked purely to keep the peace.
All those pictures of these 'militia's' might look scary and intimidating with their camo and semi-automatic weapons but that's their intent- to intimidate, to give people an impression of what they're capable of. In actuality, how many times have they actually rioted and looted and committed murder in the name of their ideology? I would argue that they more than likely want to keep the peace, maintain the status quo, preserve their way of life. Anarchy is anathema to them.
I'm not condoning any sides actions, but I think it's wrong to apportion blame to one side more than the other. I just think when it comes to violence on a large scale- the left have it covered.
Paging Vic, paging Vic- time to call bullshit on me and call me an idiot.
ps- sorry, no links, like I said my observation, my thoughts.
Everyone should relax in the knowledge that Nth America is a broken country in terminal decline. There is no fixing it, it will only get worse from here, it’s much heralded constitution and how it devolves the real power to effect change to the States will stymie the reforms needed well into the future. That and the harshest examples of neoliberalism has destroyed a once great country.
"I just think when it comes to violence on a large scale- the left have it covered."
Wow, You do realise you posted that one day after a right wing Australian extremist was sentenced to life in prison without parole for the murder of 51 people.
And Zen, you probably don't want think too hard about the numbers of people killed by right wing extremists in the USA. The reality is, nobody in power is cheering on the looters, but the GOP are actively encouraging the right wing nutters and blood is flowing in the streets because of it. So spare me your bullshit about left wing violence being worse than right wing terrorism.
Mate, you need to loosen the belt around your neck. You continue to fall back on one right-wing looney who is responsible for the worst crime in NZ HISTORY as representative of the whole.
Stop justifying your bias with your silly one dimensional posts and actually read what I wrote. I'm not seeing the blood flowing in the street from these right-wing terrorists. What I do see is a bunch of loud talking posers trying to project the image of what they're capable of- not what they actually do. How many of those blokes in the above pics do you think have actually assaulted anyone, let alone murder someone? How many of them do you think were involved in widespread looting, arson, destruction of property? Be honest with yourself.
Yes my post came one day after a person who represents probably a percentage so infinitely small it can't be justified trying to write it- that is a right-wing mass murderer. But my post comes one month after we witnessed cities blocks being razed by hundreds, if not thousands of people justifying their violence under the guise of justice for Floyd and sticking it to the machine.
Mate, for a bloke that I actually think has a modicum of intelligence i'm actually seriously starting to doubt it.
"I'm not seeing the blood flowing in the street from these right-wing terrorists."
That's because you choose not to look.
"In comparison, right-wing terrorist attacks caused 335 deaths, left-wing attacks caused 22 deaths, and ethnonationalist terrorists caused 5 deaths."
https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating-terrorism-problem-united-states
"While no one condones looting, on the other hand, one can understand the pent-up feelings that may result from decades of repression and people who have had members of their family killed by that regime, for them to be taking their feelings out on that regime. And I don't think there's anyone in any of those pictures … [who wouldn't] accept it as part of the price of getting from a repressed regime to freedom."
That's a Donald Rumsfeld quote by the way. After the US invasion of Iraq in 2003, and the subsequent rioting and looting.
Can't believe he suggested that rioting and looting was a result of legitimate, pent-up anger.
Wow! Who'd a thunk it?!
There are errors, egregious errors and totally fucked up bullshit such as this:
(and remember, statistically a white male is more likely to die at the hands of police than a black person)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123070/police-shootings-rate-ethnic...
Then there is this.
“ I think the people responsible for actual violence are firmly in the minority on both sides.“
Yep a minority of protestors none in any positions of power, acting against the wishes of their leaders versus a minority incited by political leaders in immensely powerful positions. No doubt there will the pretence of error or ignorance…but that’s pure bullshit. The intention was to deceive....well uness he chooses to accept a description of his intelligence I offered a while ago.
I agree that many US citizens do have legitimate cause to protest - and protest heavily - against the oppression they’ve experienced for generations.
But the three crew who were tangled up in the violence with the young vigilante weren’t oppressed . They were violent thugs out to cause shit and disrupt society at the expense of every innocent member across the whole country. Not sure what they expect to happen when they threaten an entire nation of gun wielding people. And that’s what they are doing with their senseless and selfish thuggery. Violent thugs meet violent thugs. They all need to be locked in an enclosed space and left to deal with each other and leave the peaceful citizens and their community undisturbed.
Blowfly ....those statistics are meaningless unless put into context of negative interactions with police ie if you are an armed assailant you are more likely to have a negative interaction with police.
Bit of honesty please.
Zen, "the police and the Army do not have an agenda...premeditated...". That was something I probably would have agreed to in the past but I have seen innumerable examples of footage from the protests this year that reveals the exact opposite. Have a look at #BLUEFALL on twitter for a start.
Dude I was pointing out that zen had posted seriously misleading information. Your claim would need data that may not be available easily on line. I think what you are saying is if you remove situations in which there was an armed person committing a crime, then the percentage of deaths would be the same. I tend to think you are wrong but I will see what I can find.
Easier than I thought. There is a lot of quite complex data there and maybe I missed something but I think this probably disproves your view that the difference is due to a difference in armed criminality.
“ Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims.”
“Racial Inequities in Deaths Due to the Use of Lethal Force
Recent public discourse has focused on racial disparities in legal intervention deaths. The current study found that, consistent with prior research, black victims were substantially over-represented relative to the U.S. population, comprising 34% of victims but only 13% of Americans, and with legal intervention death rates 2.8 times higher than those among whites. Black victims were also more likely to be unarmed than whites or Hispanics, and less likely than whites to have evidence suggesting an immediate threat to LE. Incidents involving black and Hispanic victims were more likely to involve at least one black LE officer, potentially because of greater racial diversity in police departments located in areas with larger minority populations.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/
No one suggests that all killings at the hands of police are racially motivated. So what percentage is the claim ? Considering that there is a statistically insignificant variance ( 5 percent ) between white / black as far as likelihood of the dead person being armed , coupled with the fact that there is a higher percentage of black police involved when black people killed , I see no clear and definitive pattern of overwhelming disparity between deaths for white / black people at the hands of police.
Another contributing factor to the statistics is the fact that black people ( per million ) are more likely to be involved in gun violence and homicide. This must be factored when considering how a policeman responds to a situation. Call it profiling , call it what you will. It’s a reality.
I’m not debating that there is no racial prejudice against black people by white police . I’m not American and can’t pretend to know what the situation is as a black person in that environment. I believe that class probably has more to do with outcomes than race.
The death rate is 2.8 times higher for blacks and they are more likely to be unarmed. I think that is the story. The report concludes that more needs to be done to clarify things precisely but for now I believe the statistics are sufficient to support the view that there is a clear pattern of difference in police response that results in a greater risk for black people coming into contact with them..
Stats are often misleading unless you put them in some context.
You need to know other things like:
Who is doing the crime? and not just overall crime rates but you need to focus on the types of crimes where people are most likely to be shot by a cop. (some crimes have close to zero chance of being shot by a cop)
Then look at all kinds of other aspects that may lead to a cop shooting a criminal, for instance is there a patterns on how different groups react, or time of crimes(day por night) or numbers involved in the crimes etc
And then also look at who is more likely to shot at police and what situations are the police in most risk of being shot?
As obviously police are going to be more trigger happy when feel in danger, especially if outnumbered.
For some perspective without even looking at stats i can bet more white men in USA are shot by police than black women.(even per one million)
Obviously that's not because cops are racist towards white guys.
BTW. With a mixed race police force you also need to break down others aspects like the ethnicity of the cops doing the shooting, seeing this whole thing seems to be about some idea that white cops are racist are you going to count black cops killing black criminals or white cops killing white criminals?
Anyway glad im not a cop especially in the USA, it would suck more than ever now, even if it came down to self defence you would be so apprehensive about shooting at any criminal thats not white, interesting to see if there is an effect in years to come where less black criminals get shot by cops but more white cops get shot by black criminals, if i was a cop id be wanting a black cop partner to watch my back so he could shot before i did.
Blather, blather, blather. Didnt read the link, knows nothing about the issues, just blather, blather, blather straight off the top of his head. Fact free opinion here folks! Unsupported assertion over there! Follow the amazing leaps of logic as Indo flies over his credibility gap ........ SPLAT! Face plant.
Thats the problem with people like you, you lack real life common sense.
Anyway if it makes you happy let's just agree cops are racist and like shooting black criminals, kind of easier than looking into things deeper.
"Thats the problem with people like you, you lack real life common sense."
No mate from your perspective the problem with people like me is that we are offended by bullshit and know how to find the evidence to prove that it is bullshit. But carry on, I like a good laugh as happy hour approaches.
How are you offended by seeking more information so a better & bigger picture can be created?
BTW. Im waiting on that evidence proving my questions are BS?...(no idea how you can do this?)
"How are you offended by seeking more information so a better & bigger picture can be created?"
Bullshit is not information. Nonsense is not information. Your opinions are only information about your thinking.
"Your opinions are only information about your thinking."
Yes, and informative it is too.
Whatever BB, I'm not going to bother arguing with you.
End of the day if it makes you happy to believe cops are racist, then fine, i feel sorry for the cops because i know 99% are not, but I'm not going to bother trying to convince you otherwise.
And you have you're basic stats to reinforce your views.
Again.
"This tragedy – in a long series of similar tragedies – raises a long overdue question: How do we end systemic racism in our society?”
- George W Bush.
And again.
"Systemic [or institutional] racism...is different from individual racism because it describes the outcomes of activities and processes rather than intentions and attitudes, and reflects organisational, rather than individual, failure to understand the impact of policies and procedures...
Systemic discrimination can occur “irrespective of the intent of the individuals who carry out the activities of the institution” (Bowling, in Macpherson, 1999).
It focuses attention, therefore, on the negative unintended consequences of policies that are imagined, designed and implemented without full realisation of their potential impact: or made on the basis of stereotyped images, circulating within the cultures of organisations as well as within society at large.
The systemic racism construct focuses attention on institutional processes and
outcomes: where racism is the product but not necessarily the intention of behaviours, policies and practices.
However, racist attitudes may be underpinned by systemic factors, individual racist attitudes do not exist in a vacuum: they may draw upon collective or culturally embedded images, stereotypes and representations.
Individuals may feel empowered in their racism because they may feel that their behaviour is implicitly, if not officially, sanctioned within their organisation."
(HRC Victoria)
Caspar dreaming. You are so far out of your depth on this topic, it's not even funny.
African Americans have a very real grievance because they are much more likely to be killed by a cop in the USA compared to other ethnicities. This is structural racism. It's real, and no amount of what-a-bout questions from you is going to change that fact. BTW, it happens in Australia too.
US cops are appallingly trained, have military grade weaponry, and yes many of them are racists. There's also a huge problem of ex-military people with PTSD in police forces. These things need to be addressed. Pretending that there's legitimate reasons for a very disproportionate AA body count at the hands of police is pathetic.
Indo Pillock same as he ever was
In April 1988 I bought a Dodge Plymouth Gran Fury in San Diego from an Aussie mate of mine for cash.
I had no rego papers in my name or any insurance (which made it illegal).
Drove that motor across Southern USA to Florida and then up to NYC for a cupla months.
Thankfully Mick Dundee was all the rage and apart from getting me heaps of roots and free accommodation, it allowed me to fast talk past some cops in Cal and some State Troopers in Georgia.
No way could you try that shit now!
My takeout then; was the incredible disparity of wealth especially between white and black people, the number of nutters and homeless poor people and the heavy handedness of the cops.
I was amazed there hadn't already been an uprising at that point.
I can't be surprised by anything that happens in the US next...
P.S Oh, and the number of huge fat people and that lawyers advertised on TV and
you had to pay for University and that health care was crazily exorbitant.
Systemic racism so ingrained in USA culture the public voted in an African American president (pretty much the most powerful job in the world)
End of debate.
If you think there can't be systemic racism in the USA because Obama was elected, that just proves you really are stupid Caspar Dreaming
Jeez Indo,
That's like saying noone beats their wives in NZ cause they elected a woman.
Think son.
Hahaha, that’s gold ya pillock
And in more good news, there's no homophobia in Australia because Penny Wong and Tim Wilson got elected.
Vic, I read your link which was very good btw, quite centered unlike the the other chaff you usually post and the take out for me was that yes, there are more deaths attributed to the right but I also noted that those deaths for the most part were on an individual level and in isolation to each other. I'm not diminishing the gravity of those deaths but most if not all were the actions of a crazed nutter alone and not in concert with any organized group.
In saying that, and remember I supported neither sides motivation I just said that based on what I observe, I feel the left has more of a propensity to I guess 'act out' and use violence, looting, mayhem, social disobedience as their means to the end. Yes, there are right wing rallys but more often than not they remain largely peaceful (don't mention the Cronulla riots- there's always exceptions) whereas look what happens when the G20 are in town, or what went on recently with the vegan saboteurs and what we've witnessed going on in America recently with the BLM movement.
And before you go off shooting from the hip again, these are my thoughts, my observations. I don't condone violence (by which i mean rioting and looting and the destruction of property) from anyone, in my eyes at achieves nothing and I'm not picking a side, I just feel that the left on a larger scale seem to be more predisposed to the above. With the right it seems more buried, more insidious.
Guy, names are not necessary.
" but most ( right wing killings) if not all were the actions of a crazed nutter alone and not in concert with any organized group."
Sorry Zen, but this is so wrong. Far right nationalism is an ideology shared across nations, and those crazed individuals don't act in a vacuum. They are typically members of local militias, far right wing groups, and nationalist movements. If they aren't officially members, they are certainly influenced by them.
8 Chan, 4 Chan, racist grifters in all western nations, far right media etc etc.
You'll remember the Ch Ch massacre was live streamed and cheered on by lunatics across the western world. Yes there isn't a central organisation, but that doesn't mean there's no organisation.
Literally every county has far right wing organisations and they are very much in touch with each other online. We no longer live in a world where people wear uniforms and get their orders via an obvious chain of command.
Hey cut me some slack here Zen, just how much tripe should you be expected to swallow here?
Vic, I agree with everything you said above. There are those that cheer from the sidelines as are those that do so when some farmers property is destroyed, or anothers business is torched, or a cop is cornered and beaten. I'm saying that the propensity for violence (see my definition above) is not the sole domain of the right. I think and I'll repeat what I said, I think violence from the left is more overt and on a larger scale where is from the right it's more insidious. Kinda just simmering under the surface and also in that regard, I daresay more dangerous.
Remember, I'm not taking sides.
Remember Guy, it's all in the delivery and imo, I think Indo is sloppy in that regard. I don't think he's a pillock nor a bad person.
"Yes there isn't a central organisation, but that doesn't mean there's no organisation."
oh the fucking irony...
have I mentioned the hypocrisy?
again
Zen, Let's just look at the violence by the BLM protestors. I'm not justifying it, but it's been conducted from a position of weakness and caused by a justifiable grievance. (disproportionate police killings of unarmed civilians). Quiet dignified protests (eg taking a knee) didn't work, and when the police killings kept happening, violence was inevitable.
The violence by the right is all about protecting a privileged position and it's mixed with some truly whacked conspiracy theories like the great replacement. It's deeply racist and it's all about keeping POC down.
I know which type of violence is easier to solve, and only one solution is morally justifiable.
Trumps politicisation nomination at the White now Red House...
1940 Roosevelt broadcast his nomination from The White House.
TV was available but Radio was used as to not politicise the Wartime interlude.
https://fdr.blogs.archives.gov/2020/07/28/television-fdr-and-the-1940-pr...
tbb reminds that Trump has 'weaponized' (executive powers) during election.
Trump hand picked all USPS Governors & defaults Electoral rorts thru twitter.
Joe Biden's Agenda is Made in China!
Trump : "My agenda is Made in USA!"
President then showers $1m of Wuhan Flu over his Trump Whitehouse Brand.
US imports 95% of fireworks from China or half a $billion/year's worth.
Trump blackmails Firework companies (Grucci &) to score free Fireworks.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/july-4th-fireworks-donor-lobbied-preside...
Supply Trump's weekly fireworks in exchange for zero Tariff on Chinese Fireworks.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/07/01/china-accounts-for...
Chinese made a cool $1m and bossed USA Whitehouse Pageantry.
World sees idiot hand over $1m + #1 seat of US power...just to piss fart his name.
As Hunan Covid canisters rain down over his parade!...(Should of bought USA.)
Whole US republican bench wakes up with a nasty cough! Cough! Cough!
Zhejiang Wufu make the US Flags for both Parties...+ Last election.
Chinese go broke waving Communist Flag..All now make US Flags...or else!
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1196957.shtml
March (Covid low point)
April..(Biden x 3) vs (Trump -No Change)
May (Surge)
June ...
July (Huge 100,000 Biden order rush in 10 days)
Note 4,000 Trump Flags but 70% of orders also.
[ Whitehouse ] <| MADE IN CHINA |> Flags are this week's best seller!
Zen. Check out this from Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He's a really good writer / academic.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/aug/28/kareem-abdul-jabbar-athlet...
“Zen, Let's just look at the violence by the BLM protestors. I'm not justifying it, but it's been conducted from a position of weakness and caused by a justifiable grievance. ....”
Again Vic, I can't disagree with you. One is born out of oppression and frustration the other is as you say, protecting a privileged position. In my opinion the violence on both sides is of a different nature- one side wants to tear down the wall the other wants to shoot people trying to climb over it. Personally I don't think there's a moral justification for either. One doesn't cancel the other out.
Anyway, long day. Surfed, worked, took the dogs to the puppy salon. Scorching hot here so I'm ready for a beer. Sorry if I get a bit short but I can't type as fast as I think. I have no ill will towards you nor anyone else on here that takes the time to write.
Have a good one.
Septic Tanks are going to Septic Tank