High Intensity Training

blindboy's picture
blindboy started the topic in Tuesday, 29 Oct 2013 at 6:01pm

If you missed "The Truth About Exercise" on SBS last night it is well worth a look and can be accessed through their web site. It was more concerned with the health aspects than high levels of fitness but if you haven't caught up with the research on the benefits of high intensity, short duration exercise, then most of what you think you know is probably wrong ( no,no no, not you uplift!). Also good on individual differences.

uplift's picture
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uplift Monday, 3 Mar 2014 at 10:42pm

Gidday Udo, I don't train that way or believe in it. There's basically two schools of thought. Mimic the specific patterns/movement of the sport in strength and fitness training to enhance performance, as Burrow is doing, or train fitness and strength totally seperate to skill. I prefer the second for many reasons. Most sports are very repetitive, some movements dominate, and this creates imbalance, eventually leading to injury, eventually leading to more injury, and so on. So, I train to address that first and foremost. Perfecting a skill, such as balance, can easily be mistaken for structural strength/fitness increase, which it isn't. Which can also easily be exposed by eliminating the skill as much as possible and testing the structure/fitness. A common mistake is being impressed by say a top boxing trainer, putting top fighters through sessions. Experience demonstrates many believe, wow, awesome, super coordinated, reflexes, speed, endurance, power, what better way to train. And who would argue with boxers, who can make the novice/average trainer pay, and look like a klutz. So, 'boxing is the best way to train for anything!' But, I can get a top basketballer, and he'll make the boxer look like an absolute idiot at basketball. An uncoordinated klutz. And exhaust him /her very quickly. Then we can give them both tennis racquets, and Nadal will make them look like zombies. Despite all 3 requiring awesome footwork, balance, timing, coordination, etc. Being skilfull at one thing is not a guarantee that it will help another. In fact, it can be a huge problem, a hinderance to learning new skills. Or two skills, two patterns really similar, but actually different, can create split second confusion under pressure. So elite players practice skill, specific, identical movement patterns over and over and over and over. Suddenly its lke driving, thinking is out of the way, it becomes subconscious. Skill. The 'flow', that every athlete loves. The mind is free to choose, the skill takes care of business. 'Style'. Tennis shows it clearly. The worlds best, starts choosing worry, doubting, tries to 'think' the actual pattern, and can't even get a grandma paced second serve in. The desperate attempts to stop the mind, focus, and let the subconscious, the flow back in. Some can, some can't.

There is so much 'funny' stuff in training. Like the endless boxing world, muscles make you slow, don't create true power... make you tight. And then the weight divisions shuts the whole saga down... Tyson in his prime. So much hilarious shit. To fully develop a muscle you need infinite angles, patterns variety. Hilarious. Ever seen a top sprinter's quads, glutes, whole body for that matter. Testosterone and growth hormone aren't selective. The whole show benefits. Teenagers. One minute, little kids, presto, whether they train, bludge, eat shit, the whole show changes, teenagers, then adults. Hormones. Anabolism. Every athletes dream. Injuries heal. Why do even the likes of Lance Armstrong risk all for hormones. To be a bodybuilder? Musclebound? Slower? So, assuming the athlete has chosen no drugs, which is really the only choice, training must create the right hormones. Repair, healing, growth. Crucial. Most trainers have no idea there, even world champs, so take a pill or jab. Again, so easy to expose an athletes hormone profile. Heaps of nagging injuries?

Having done this for close to 45 years is such a bonus. The repetition, the cycles. The emporers new clothes. The latest fad isn't, its a rehashed money spinner... the edge. Results are all that count. Some things just are proven, over and over. They stand the test of time. I use a system of balancing, restorative core training whereby I expect everyday men and women to be able to easily handle and control between 10 and 20kg of weight in one function of the core, the front half if you like, and between 20 and 40 kg in the other function, the back half. Athletes much more. The truth is, most fail miserably, and grovel for ages with no weight. Burrow would fall in that catagory. Then there is the weight bearing, strength function of core. Functionality. Burrow would fail miserably. Surfers want to do more dramatic 'moves', more stressfull. Imagine a floor routine, specialist gymnast with glutes and quads like twigs. Injury world, no performance.

The 'dream is a body that doesn't fail or tire, that lets perfect skill do its thing.

So yeh, I'd love to see an anabolic version of Burrow with 10 kg of extra muscle in the right places and a core from hell. Could his shapers deal with that though? Doubt it.

But, look at the present attitude towards training, in the article Brahman on the point thing. And my honest opinion is, semi pro surfers are still training wimps. Soft. Like the old days in most pro sports. Definitely super, supremely skilled though.

Again, heres's a classic example of hard, elite fitness and strength training. Not skill training, thats over and above, utilising the fitness and strength. 5' 8" 80 kg. Easy to see elite core. Glutes, back, quad, bracing.

kbomb's picture
kbomb's picture
kbomb Friday, 25 Jul 2014 at 8:35pm

HIT is the only way to train,
The guy in the video link you posted is doing a lot wrong in terms of proper HIT training. A lot of the strength training shown in the video is way off the mark.

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uplift Friday, 25 Jul 2014 at 9:15pm

Kb, why is it the only way to train, and what is your version of it? I like the Jones style of HIT, but there are other versions. He trains his way. Why is he way off the mark, and don't you think he's strong? I like his message. Put yours up, and your training techniques/results, some people might like it.

kbomb's picture
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kbomb Friday, 25 Jul 2014 at 9:46pm

Yeah no doubt he is a strong fit guy and what he does works, however, he could get the same results or better with HIT and most likely by spending less time in the gym.
I follow Drew Bay who bases his stuff from Jones. From what I can tell the issue are with his moves such as the snatch. He could do a simple squat and shoulder press which would be a heap safer. Doing the push ups with a plate on his back. I don't think is the safest or most efficient way to work the muscles, a simple bench press would be best. He seems to do a lot of fast extensions with his weights, he should be slowing it down for both the concentric and eccentric movements, again safer and keeps tension on the muscles and takes out momentum so your muscles are working hard.
The key is,
Slow controlled movements, around four seconds up four down.
Only perform one set of each exercise.
train to failure on each set and it must be true failure, momentary muscular failure.
Perform only 1 or 2 sets per muscle group, compound movements are best. Each set is 45 to 90 however this can depend on the person.
Training should take no longer than 30 minutes.
If each set is quickly proceeded by the following set then this takes care of
" cardo" training. No need to run or sprint or whatever people waste their time doing.
In his case however sprinting is a part of his game, its a specific skill and it needs to be trained. Like you said skill training is a different thing.

His message is a good one.

kbomb's picture
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kbomb Friday, 25 Jul 2014 at 9:50pm

Sorry bay is BAYE. his site is Baye.com. lot of great reading there.

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uplift Friday, 25 Jul 2014 at 10:31pm

I like lots of what you say kb. However I like pushups with plates, done in the rep speed you describe. Makes the whole body work harder than bench. I think the one set is ok if you are using variable resistance, like Nautilus, that Jones used when he did one set. But I used to write to him and Darden in the 70's a lot and even they used two, up to three without that style of equipment, as its much less intense. Thats why a lot like chains, increasing resistance as you lift in a some movements, but thats expensive and a hassle. Take a full bore squat, you are much stronger close to lockout than bottom, but limited by what you can get out of the bottom. Curl, opposite, weaker at bottom, stronger at top, yet the resistance is minimal in top position. Better with cables, but still not ideal. Thats why the cam was invented. The nautilus squat machine was full on, it was maximum effort throughout the whole range. So full on, deluxe. Then you could jump straight on pullover lat, same deal, and so on. and so on, as you say, best cardio going, heavy duty. He had a lot of machines that you could do insane negatives on your own at the end of sets etc, too. So he could truly get maximum out of one set. But, he even used more with lots of people. As people become fitter, with really strict form and feel, I like a mix of the tempo you use, and also full explosive on positive part of rep, then 8 sec negative, especially if they play sport. Acceleration increases the force/intensity in that range, you can use more weight, then really hammer the negative portion, chuck in a bit of isometric on last reps too. Agree totally and always use seperate skill, strength/fitness sessions. Site looks good, Darden is still around, and has a good site, tons of info too, just google Ellington Darden. Keep training, enjoy your health and fitness.

kbomb's picture
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kbomb Monday, 28 Jul 2014 at 5:41pm

I have heard the Nautilus machine are awesome and the best thing going, would love the chance to try them out one day. Pretty sure from the reading I have done that one set done to failure is all that's needed to produce the stimulus needed for strength and growth gains, Body by Science explains it all in scientific ways, but I guess whatever you are comfortable doing.
Explosive on the positive is not recommended, I understand trying to get the heavy weight up there to hammer the negative but its going to cause injuries at some stage. Better having a spotter help get the weight up. If its to improve explosiveness in sports ...as long as you are trying to move your muscles as quickly as possible you will improve. You don't need to be moving fast or explosively to improve explosiveness. If you are moving a weight really slowly but trying to move it as fast as you can then job done. Safer too.
Whats your take on pullover lats compared with the chin up or lat pull down? If you only did one what would it be? I am doing pullover lats and chin ups HIT and with everything else its too taxing, just trying to do one set per body part, any advice would be great.
Ill check Ellington Darden's site.

Blinkers off's picture
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Blinkers off Monday, 28 Jul 2014 at 7:19pm

Do you guys do any training I know you all type really well

uplift's picture
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uplift Monday, 28 Jul 2014 at 10:56pm

Force, and so tension are magnified when lifting explosively kbomb. Slow is good too, but for conditioned muscles, and structures, explosive is extra stimulus. Its safe if done properly. All Olympic lifters, gymnasts, sprinters etc, benefit dramatically from it. Yes in sports explosiveness is crucial, and the risk is high, as its uncontrolled. But it can be applied to training in a safe, controlled way, and I feel and have learned that tendons and ligaments must be conditioned to the amount of force that can be produced that way.

I've used all the nautilus machines, and the difference is dramatic re tension and load, thus the amount of exhaustion or failure produced. The old Jones ones were best, he wasn't too concerned with looks etc, just getting an effect. Without using them or similar I have experienced one set is not enough, not comparable.

Personally, I would do chins. Its eaier to truly work lats, plus grip etc get a better flogging, and decompression is much, much better. Or I would alternate each, each workout.

Yeh heaps blinky, I'm around 60 now, the photo was updated a few months or so ago.


How about you?

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uplift Monday, 28 Jul 2014 at 11:07pm
wellymon's picture
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wellymon Saturday, 20 Aug 2016 at 12:21am

I've talked before about Sean "T's" Focus 'T 25'

17 weeks ago 102kg, now weighing in in as a lean mean fighting machine 84.5 kgs.

Give it a go and stick to his x3 - 5 week challenges.

It creates energy;)

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zenagain Saturday, 20 Aug 2016 at 9:51am

Awesome Welly!

Well done.

floyd's picture
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floyd Saturday, 20 Aug 2016 at 10:09am

Good work Welly, have you posted before and after pics on Instagram? Hehe

Seriously, I would be interested in any comments you have on recovery, injury, joint soreness etc doing that sort of program.

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freeride76 Saturday, 20 Aug 2016 at 11:27am

Too sore too surf?

Blowin's picture
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Blowin Saturday, 20 Aug 2016 at 7:12pm

Reminds me of the punchline from a joke regarding the Gods visiting Earth annually to get baccanalic with the local women -

" You're Thor !? I can barely pith."

Boom Tish .

Well done Welly.

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wellymon Saturday, 20 Aug 2016 at 11:17pm

Haha Blowin, way over my depth that one.
Leaving the Yankee Island to get back to reality, only got to see waves from the plane, few set ups.
Never bumped into any WA oil guys who are lucky to have the privilege.

Hi Floyd, to be honest I stayed on Alpha for probably 8-9 weeks, on and off.
When home for such a little amount of time, there was too many other important priorities to sort out.
So missing 10 days would put me behind a little.

I'm on Beta level now and I'm glad I spent longer on the first Alpha level, which builds the foundation.
Especially form and the training of the mind with motor body skills for some of the exercises.

If you do try it, my advice would be,
A: Don't try and keep up with Sean T at all, as his pace is the set pace for the end of 5 weeks, if you nail that! then it's time to move to the next level. Don't move to Beta until your form is strong and you're keeping the same pace.
B: Listen to what he is talking about while performing the exercises, as this produces good form and engaging the right muscles.
C: Good training shoes and foam matts to take shock load maybe!
D: Stick religiously to his week programmes, do not change and learn to like whilst getting used to some routines. (Some do feel like you're on a dance floor). ;)

I heard from someone that he took 2 years to fine tune this workout and I'm starting realise how and why.

Pretty much what Uplift talked about alot, IE Glutes, Quads, Hamstrings, Calves, Hip Flexors and Core are the main muscles, that develop other time pretty fast, as well as strippig weight and having a spring in your step so to speak;)

The beauty of T25 IMO, spring legs and a very strong core. Great attributes to have for board sports.
Only 25 mins which is over real quick.

Freeride, you get pretty wrecked the first week but that's because you probably don't use these muscle groups. They get used to it pretty quick and develop stamina and strength fast enough for yourself to see improvement.

Had only a few surfs in 4 months, but geez it's made huge change in mobility, paddling ie (Weight) and reaction time:)
Looking forward to getting some decent waves, a trip is on.

zenagain's picture
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zenagain Saturday, 20 Aug 2016 at 11:58pm

Hey Welly 2.0, quick question-

Hae you changed your diet, cut out alcohol or anything like that?

That's a great achievement man.

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wellymon Sunday, 21 Aug 2016 at 7:26am

Hi Zen,

My inebriation was getting the better of my mind state, hence my body. I've had one or two beers just to be social but pretty much, knocked it on the head. After 8 years of giving up the weed for work reasons, the drinking vice was the devil. Might start rolling some again haha;)

My diet, I've also focused on, which is probably 60% of it, 4 small portions of clean food, no processed shit, sugars, white carbs, lots of little salads with tuna/salmon, porridge, poached eggs;) and good meat. Some dark chocolate as a treat.
Lots of water to suppress hunger.
Vital Greens and Ultra Zinc.
Beta Alanine before T25.

Some rope protection around the calves as a control at work;) haha.

Lots of Focus and mental push is the driving one.

zenagain's picture
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zenagain Sunday, 21 Aug 2016 at 9:07am

Good on you man, I'm impressed. I need to get onboard something like that. I've gone from being a thoroughbred to grazing a bit too much in the paddock. Time was my excuse but here I am dicking around on SN.

A mate had a bit of a laugh at a fat guy we saw jogging past the other day. I told him (my mate) he was a fuckwit- never laugh at someone who's making the effort to improve themselves.

floyd's picture
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floyd Sunday, 21 Aug 2016 at 11:04am

Thanks Welly, good advice there and like what you say also on diet.