Watch: Explaining The Creature

Stu Nettle
Swellnet Dispatch

"Every single turn that's being done now has been done to the same degree...plus or minus some tiny percentages, for the last twenty plus years."

Class is in session with Greg Webber explaining his theory...or should I say theories, because there's a few of them, that power his latest model, The Creature.

For some more info on the design read yesterday's article.

Comments

Walk around G's picture
Walk around G's picture
Walk around G commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 11:39am

Interesting, send one down here and I'll give it a try Gregie! Not sure how it'll go at Bells though, where traditionally I ride low rockered, hard rail, vee-bottoms to adhere to the fat powerful walls????

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 12:38pm

The rails are low and the rocker quite moderate so the grip and drive is there. Email me if you want to try one. I’ll make one for Adam Robbo so he can show you.

Walk around G's picture
Walk around G's picture
Walk around G commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 1:07pm

Awesome! I'll send you an email and chat to Adam next time I see him. I've just sold a 5 fin Bonzer which was different and fun to ride but not great for around here, amazing drive off the back foot on the backhand though in steeper waves. Surfboards are a cluster fu%$ but you just gotta keep trying different ones as it's such a personal relationship we all have with our tool of choice.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 1:58pm

Ok cool.
Yes we are all different human beings but when a board is great it can be loved by a huge range of surfers. Rod Dahlberg made a twinny for himself in the mid 70’s and even guys 15kg heavier still loved the thing. We don’t all need boards tailored to our own personal differences, certain designs have it all happening and you just need the right volume.

Irukandji kiss's picture
Irukandji kiss's picture
Irukandji kiss commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 11:45am

Why explain double concaves? They've been around for years. The different flex pattern is interesting and the deck grooves/feet position too.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 12:45pm

Have all double concaves been exactly the same as all the others?
Have some worked much better than others?
Has anyone made very deep concaves without drawbacks?
If you answer No, Yes, No, then you have your answer. What you’ve said is the same as saying people have been making coffee for a hundred years when the one of the best baristas on earth has created a masterpiece of flavour yet you’re saying his work is the same as a cup of cheap instant coffee because they’re both coffee. Your comment is inane.

Walk around G's picture
Walk around G's picture
Walk around G commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 1:12pm

If I recall correctly, MC hates double concaves but loves really extreme single concave, similar concept no? with regards to bottom edge angle?

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 2:07pm

I’ll make him one and then see what he says. How annoying would that be if Maurice thought it was the best board he’d ever ridden and it’s all on video and he’s totally ripping! Which ego will win? the surfer tearing the wave face to pieces or the shaper trying to find flaws when there aren’t any! My guess is he will adapt to the deep double and be one it’s best adopters and sell fucking heaps of them. Single concave feels beautiful to ride but has a hidden flaw that’s not noticeable until you ride a great double. Adam robbo has ridden my singles for years and went back to a 2008 DC I made him that was sitting in his garage. He sent it to me and said this is the best one of the lot. I couldn’t bring myself to copy it since I didn’t like the deck rocker but now with the Creature I’ve found a way to get the same result without bulging the deck.

sharkman's picture
sharkman's picture
sharkman commented Thursday, 24 Jan 2019 at 7:40am

So what's the hidden flaw of a single concave?

x

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 10:30pm

That as they get deeper the grip doesn’t increase at the same rate as the lift and so the difference between planing on both rails and then going onto one rail is too radical. That’s why tow-in boards don’t have 5” of concave since the grip would never catch up with the bite. The other thing is the shape of the dent that the single concave makes in the wave. It’s totally round and so they go rail to rail almost too freely. And I adore them of course and still make them but keep them below ½” even though I’ve made plenty at 1”.

trevortube's picture
trevortube's picture
trevortube commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 5:55pm

Deck grooves is interesting, however it may be a personal set-up.
Double concave, to me ruins transitional trim.
soft V- equally soft single concave is the dogs balls for most conditions where the double concave is in isolation.

Just get that wave pool up and runnin Greg.
im itchn for sum 4 ft rip bowl in suburbia.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 10:34pm

Watch the video of kelly again. If anyone could feel what you’re talking about he would notice it and he has never said anything of the sort about any of the doubles. They’re smoother between turns and provide a slightly neutral feeling for a moment when both rails bed in. This helps the rider to not have to think about catching and also allows you to use slightly lower entry rockers than what you can with a full length single concave.

surfstarved's picture
surfstarved's picture
surfstarved commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 12:09pm

How about showing us the actual board or perhaps some of the footage of Kelly? Without that it's all hearsay.

His website says: 404 - File not found

Not that I'm doubting what Greg's saying, I'd just like a bit more meat on the bone.

Don't let the bastards grind you down

surfstarved's picture
surfstarved's picture
surfstarved commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 12:10pm

Scroll down, dickhead.

Sigh...

Don't let the bastards grind you down

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 12:48pm

He sent me video that’s from his phone filming his laptop but I’d love Stu to post it even though it’s not super sharp. You’re dead right surfstarved, we need the video to show the true nature of the way it rides.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 12:56pm

Maybe I’ll just put it on my Vimeo page and then post the link

amb's picture
amb's picture
amb commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 2:11pm

Any update you can share on your wave park Greg?

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 10:39pm

I’m Loving not talking about the wave pool for once, but I’m designing the current control system at the moment with two big companies in disconnected fields along with a video capture judging system, so that’s been interesting.

amb's picture
amb's picture
amb commented Thursday, 31 Jan 2019 at 2:14pm

Intersting and sorry to hassle, but any soil being dug?. Is there a website ect that we can follow progress. I find articial wave design more interesting than surfboard design.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 1:14pm

that was really interesting.

Some of it sounded very plausible, some a little hazy.

Still, proof will be in the pudding. Kelly the GOAT would have to be looking for every advantage he can get from a late 40's body on the CT.

Whats the difference between this full length double concave bottom shape and others you have done Greg?

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 2:26pm

What was interesting?
The difference between this DC and all the other DCs I’ve done is in the link between the lift and the bite and how deep the dc is and where and for how long. If the dc fades out super slowly and evenly from nose to tail (as I’ve always preferred) then the grip increases evenly and there are no problems whatsoever but there is no increase in lift since the rocker at the bottom of each concave closely matches with the rocker on the stringer and the rails. However if you create a slightly deeper dc for a slightly shorter distance between the feet then you are increasing the lift and the bite in equal proportions and so the board ends up being even faster than a single and with more grip to allow you to control that speed easily. It creates a slightly smaller sweetspot which again I’ve avoided since why would you want it when it creates rocker flaws either side of the flat. But if it’s not too small and has no rocker bulges either side of the flat then it feels amazing since there will be much less need to move your feet. So it’s how much and how deep that’s harder to explain in words.

sharkman's picture
sharkman's picture
sharkman commented Thursday, 24 Jan 2019 at 8:53pm

Do you actually think that the board bury's into the wave and that with all your descriptions of Vees/SC's/and Dc's that the board is in the wave and planing on the edges?
Have you ever surfed and looked back at the tail of the boards and seen that the board is actually planing on both sides of the board and that during turns all three fins are in the water?
Do you understand that if 45cm of the board is always in the water (rail to rail turns) and that water flow comes off both sides of the board including the tail,so therefore there is displacement of water , but the board is not buried to the point where the rail is buried in the wave??

x

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 2:48pm

Here’s the link for the first ride he sent me.

https://vimeo.com/312866048

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 3:28pm

Sorry but this video has a glitch and misses one top turn so I’m trying to fix it

hillsintas's picture
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hillsintas commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 3:05pm

Just for you Greg.
Not many can square the circle.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 3:29pm

Thanks Russ, ha!

memlasurf's picture
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memlasurf commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 3:42pm

Greg you are truly a great raconteur. Not many people with you design profile would bother discussing your board in such great detail online. Thanks I for one really appreciate it - and you did the same for your wave park. No one else in your position I know of would subject themselves to the same inquisition.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 10:48pm

Thanks, I really appreciate you saying that and I do it for three reasons. 1. Stuart wrote a critical article on the wave pool industry a few years ago which pitted Kelly and me against each other and it helped my company directly. 2. It’s a good exercise for me to be able to express the complex elements in wave dynamics and surfboard design and make them understandable. And 3 I like to deal with the negative and sometimes nasty people in forums since today everyone can have a public voice, and most are not really qualified to make some of the grand statements that they make, and so it’s good to shut them down sometimes. Strong negative attitudes can stifle creativity which can sometimes stop good ideas getting to materialise. Most creative people are too gentle to fight hard in business so I want to open the door to supporting other ideas people in the future. Australians really have a great attitude to ego which keeps us all pretty level, with men especially, but the price we pay is that if someone comes up with a great idea other guys will think that he now thinks he rips and that’s not always the case.

shoredump's picture
shoredump's picture
shoredump commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 4:07pm

My gut feeling on just imagining how it would feel, is it’s a good idea. Im wondering though, for the every day surfer, if that 1 inch part is an easy snapping point

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 10:51pm

Should be very slightly stronger against snapping just due the glass now having four new angled sections that should stiffen from nose to tail a little.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 7:13pm

I hope that last bit of Kelly not competing wasn't a freudian slip.

Hope to see him compete this year.

BTW. Do always appreciate it when you shapers like Greg and Nev take the time to reply to comments under related articles etc comments are a good read on there own,

For further reference and common sense.

General Social issues: Rita Panahi & Lauren Southern
Indigenous issues: Jacinta Price and Anthony Dillion
Gender: Debra Soh.
Islam: Armin Navabi & Brigitte Gabriel
Population: Dick Smith

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 12:21pm

I was having a dig at Nick Carroll for hijacking a story about Kelly ripping on a very unusual surfboard and turning it into a thread about surfers ripping when they go off tour.

nickcarroll's picture
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nickcarroll commented Sunday, 27 Jan 2019 at 6:34am

Ha!

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot commented Wednesday, 23 Jan 2019 at 9:07pm

How is the boards strength and durability if the deck is only about an inch thick in some places?
All good if its the best board ever but if it snaps after a week thats a problem.

Interesting video Greg, thanks

Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean commented Thursday, 24 Jan 2019 at 1:40am

Technically could be very strong , pending lamination process* ........

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot commented Thursday, 24 Jan 2019 at 5:43am

Same theory as Stretch’s deck cut outs?

Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean's picture
Lanky Dean commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 8:24pm

Just so you know Cole surfboards did the deck channels first, for Nathan Fletcher.
Nathan the met with stretch to build some boards for him. Only to be first shut down for requesting deck channel. Stretch refused to shape them at first I guess.....
Then Nathan explained that they actually strengthened the board.
Stretch caved and adopted the concept.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 10:53pm

Check my reply to shoredump above. Should be slightly stronger

Bozza's picture
Bozza's picture
Bozza commented Thursday, 24 Jan 2019 at 12:59am

double bottom concave. Wow. ground breaking stuff.!!
Next there'll be a single into double.:(

backyard's picture
backyard's picture
backyard commented Thursday, 24 Jan 2019 at 10:02am

Worth a reply, not really. Some old fart made an interesting comment about instant coffee above, you might read that.

backyard

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 10:55pm

Nicely said, and thanks.

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Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 12:23pm

That’s one worth trying even if you are being facetious.

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 10:59pm

And what I meant was that I thought you were saying to try a single to double concave deck and bottom. And I fucking love the idea! Could have some amazing qualities.
But I guess you were just being a smart ass. Amazing then that through some unhappy bugger being sarcastic (I’m sure you don’t use words like facetious so I’ll use that one so you understand ) an exciting new surfboard might get created.

backyard's picture
backyard's picture
backyard commented Sunday, 27 Jan 2019 at 10:20am

A true master, always learning, always looking.

backyard

ron's picture
ron's picture
ron commented Thursday, 24 Jan 2019 at 10:15am

Seems like there are some similarities with MCs deep singles in the way the final part of the radius meets the rail. Would be interesting to measure that angle and see how similar they are at that point. If you continue the radius from one rail to the other of GWs double and cut off the ridge in the center it might end up quite close to MCs super deep singles which are around 3/4 deep i think.

When turning sharp with the rail buried and only half the board in the water the rail is doing the work. Does that mean the 90 degree angle theory is working here and whether its achieved via single or double doesn't really matter at that moment?

sharkman's picture
sharkman's picture
sharkman commented Thursday, 24 Jan 2019 at 8:59pm

the rail is not buried in the wave , as Greg claims , but hydroplanes across the water , thats why edges are important in the tail of the board as a release point so as not to create drag/friction.......double concaves around the fins make the board lift up at high speeds , so are limited...

x

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 12:33pm

Very good question and the angle might be the same and the bite or grip might be very similar at that moment on rail, but the big difference is what happens between turns. I’ve made many very deep singles. Some over an inch deep and they all suffer this issue of going from huge lift to huge bite. When the lift gets too high then the transition between the two is not user friendly at all. That’s why I only did some customs at about ½”. The 6” deep concaves I did as experiments helped to me feel what the problem was at 1”. I’m not saying that super deep concaves are unrideable, they’re great in some ways, but if you want to make a super high performance board with speed and bite as well as forgiveness then it’s better to have the highest lift points of the outside edges above the centre of the planing craft, not below. That’s why the vast majority of jets and planes the world over have the wings tips higher than the body of the plane, it’s more stable.

sharkman's picture
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sharkman commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 8:09pm

Greg , you mentioned a "hidden Flaw" in single concaves would be interested to know what it is?
Do You understand the difference between Hydrodynamics and Aerodynamics , as you cannot compare them when talking about surfboard design?

x

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 11:23pm

Best and most correct thing you’ve said yet. Sometimes in fact quite often it’s necesary to use analogies to get a point across. Yes water cannot be compressed and so the mediums are different and so the parallels are not perfect but there are overlaps in the forms that get created, otherwise why would sharks and fish and dolphins and birds and fruit bats and insects all have wing shaped protuberances laterally from the body? And in fact why would flying fish be able to use their pectoral fins for stability in the water hydrodynamically, and yet for lift aerodynamically when they exit the water and glide through the air ??? That design, that’s been around for at a guess 200 million years shows that there are some distinct parallels. Mate you don’t know enough about boards to really challenge me so you should give up trying to prove me wrong. And if I’m ever wrong I’m stoked to know where and can learn from it. I don’t think you have enough objectivity to do that, nor to pull back from trying to be a cunt either. ( a great quality in a fight though!)
But I’ll tell you one thing, if I could never shape another board for the rest of my life but I could still surf, then it would be between you and my brother Will who I’d be asking to shape my boards.

regydogy's picture
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regydogy commented Thursday, 24 Jan 2019 at 10:24am

i agree with trevertube . in my q quiver i have an old early 70s peter townsend tubeshooter bonzer which has a deep double concave , the thing is a beast but rides insane . point is all boards go good in different conditions .

Gary G's picture
Gary G's picture
Gary G commented Thursday, 24 Jan 2019 at 1:13pm

Gary's more about making people quiver than owning one.

You and me, Gary, ain’t nothing but mammals so let’s do it* like they do it on the aerobics channel

*faceys

P'tai's picture
P'tai's picture
P'tai commented Thursday, 24 Jan 2019 at 1:01pm

I'm sure God's name was Brian..............

Bungan33's picture
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Bungan33 commented Thursday, 24 Jan 2019 at 3:51pm

Man...what a mind! He must dream in parabolic curves and energy flows. Very cool.
I reckon mr Webber should start a general educational video streaming service...maybe not life education though...might be a little too much like the classroom scene from Monthy Pythons "A meaning of life"....

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 11:28pm

Thanks mate, and you’re not far off with the dreams! Just this morning after two days of fashioning a 2 foot curved concrete step for my gf, I had a vision of the slight ‘S’ shaped transition and there was a low spot and a tiny cartoon like hand said “there’s a bit”.
And oh my god yeah, what a great but scary scene that sex education scene is! Bless them for having the guts to do it, Cleese was on another level, and yeah I would hope not!!

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 12:45pm

Thanks mate, and you’re not far off with the dreams! Just this morning after two days of fashioning a 2 foot curved concrete step for my gf, I had a vision of the slight ‘S’ shaped transition and there was a low spot and a tiny cartoon like hand said “there’s a bit”. And oh my god what a great but scary scene and of hope not!!

clif's picture
clif's picture
clif commented Friday, 25 Jan 2019 at 1:26am

duuuuude get a decent mic haha

"Don't try. That's very important: not to try." Charles Bukowski

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 6:32pm

The sound seems totally fine.
Maybe something at your end.

OHV500's picture
OHV500's picture
OHV500 commented Friday, 25 Jan 2019 at 10:02am

I just cannot see how the deck contours could make a difference. I just think it'd feel weird under my feet and hurt my chest bone. I'll stick with a rolled - classic looking deck and a big mother of a single concave - and go fast !!

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 6:41pm

Just imagine how differently a mono hull sailing boat performs when compared to a twin hulled catamaran. There has to be some performance difference when the buoyancy from rail to rail is changed. Really rolled decks verses totally flat decks perform very differntly so when you change the deck shape on top it has to have an effect.
Just depends on how wide and deep the hollows are. Eg if you cut a 10mm wide channel into a deck rail then this has virtually no effect since the foot angle isn’t changing and the position of the foot in relation to the bottom of the board isn’t changing. Imagine riding a 4” thick 18” wide super rolled deck. Then draw a triangle between the stringer at the top of the deck roll and the bottom edges of the rails at half way. That triangle is how to look at deck shape. And that imaginary board is super tippy and unstable.

sharkman's picture
sharkman's picture
sharkman commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 8:13pm

"Just imagine how differently a mono hull sailing boat performs when compared to a twin hulled catamaran. There has to be some performance difference when the buoyancy from rail to rail is changed. "

Greg the buoyancy has little affect , what you are talking about is less friction , or less wetted surface area .....do you just make up these theory's?

x

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 9:44pm

Youre the one getting confused mate. Again I’m ignoring the bottom and just talking about the deck and relating the position of the foot in relation to the outside rail. The lift that starts to increase with speed ends up feeling the same as the bouyancy anyway. At low speed the bouyancy distribution has more effects and at higher speeds the lifting aspects on the bottom dominate but the position of the surfer’s foot in relation to the rail edges creates an imaginary triangle that indicates how stable or tippy that deck shape will be. That’s why guys riding those hydro foils have such an incredibly hard time controlling them since the triangle from the centre line of the deck and the outer tips of the lifting foils make an incredibly accute triangle and so they are super hard to ride. Back to the boat analogy, at zero speed in flat water it is obviously harder to tip a catamaran on its side than a mono hull. Just purely due to the geometry of the force being applied to the sail and the resisting form which is the hull. That’s why I’m talking about buoyancy distribution from rail to rail. What happens on the double concaved deck from the limits at which your toes and heels get (maybe 2” from the rail edge at tail and 4” at front foot) to the top of the rail where water never touches is not so relevant. So I just make a nice curve there so it’s not too hard to sand or glass. In theory you could hollow it even further past the heel and toe limits and at speed it would feel exactly the same as one that had more foam in this zone but for everyday use in beach breaks it would have even less volume and so paddling and going through dead spots in crap waves would be harder so I decided to keep as much volume as possible so that the centre doesn’t have to get too thick.

sharkman's picture
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sharkman commented Sunday, 27 Jan 2019 at 2:46am

At low speeds buoyancy paddles you in , and thats it.....when up to surfing speed that's when the buoyancy is no longer needed....

x

Lanky Dean's picture
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Lanky Dean commented Sunday, 27 Jan 2019 at 3:40pm

That's why I prefer a more buoyant board, and mostly always have. An early entry is key for a lot of the waves I surf. It helps a lot in slabby reef waves. You want to be under the ledge but still gliding in, same for most beach breaks also.
I prefer more foam near the nose. Fuller nose template also .

yocal's picture
yocal's picture
yocal commented Tuesday, 29 Jan 2019 at 12:55pm

Sharkman/Greg,
Perhaps the word you would both agree upon is displacement? That's what is sounds like from Greg's description (i've never shaped a board in my life).

Go deeper Taylor, go deeper!

drodders's picture
drodders's picture
drodders commented Friday, 25 Jan 2019 at 10:27am

My Webster 6'10 DS has an amazing spiral V, which is a V with deepish concave on either side, rolled v at front of board, 3ft to 10ft as a single or a quad it is lovely, also makes chop seem to not exist. Webby has many other things going on though, very round soft rails up front that cling to the wave, smooth rocker etc.

I also like some of Hayden Shapes boards, often with considerable rocker change along the length of the board, very flat through the middle, flipped noses and tails, mix of singles and double concave and V, quite complicated, but forgiving and easy to surf.

Funny thing is one of my favorite boards of all time was a 5'10 Twinzer that had a bottom contour that was FLAT as a pancake, it did not like chop though?

Thanks Greg for taking the time, it is a fascinating topic, you must love your job!

Island Bay's picture
Island Bay's picture
Island Bay commented Friday, 25 Jan 2019 at 11:03am

Drodders, you're so right about the chop-busting powers of the DS. So buttery in conditions that are anything but. Was fortunate to have three surfs on my 6'10 the last two days, ranging from very pleasant to truly terrifying.

I wonder if Greg's super defined spine has some of that effect. Could very well be.

Deep single and sharp rails, however, are a deadly combination in chop and bump; impossible to control and hard to get into 5th gear, imho.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 5:16pm

you're right about deep singles and hard edges in big waves but when you make the concave flat sided, like an inverse V then it gets more stable. Tow boards often use that bottom shape, so the get the grip without adding too much lift.

sharkman's picture
sharkman's picture
sharkman commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 8:20pm

Tow boards...hmmm how many have you seen and surfed and for what kind of waves?
RCJ uses 3/4" single concave with hard edges from nose to tail , for speed not grip , but no concave around the back fin......so what you say is not true again!

x

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Sunday, 27 Jan 2019 at 12:19am

Not that many but seen enough pics and video and had a good chat to Lopez about inverse vee on toe boards a fair while ago admittedly. Also made a deep double concave 10 footer for Brent Symes a year and a bit ago and he said the grip was amazing. I think deep single concaves in big wave tow boards will fade out in time. So we will see if I’m wrong. The fact that they are so narrow does make a deep single drop lift in relation to grip so maybe that’s why it’s ok to still go deep. But to say that the speed is what’s they’re after more than the grip is very surprising. All the horrendous wipeouts I see are all to do with the guy waiting to be able to do a turn that would get him the fuck out of where he is and into a safer spot on the wave.

sharkman's picture
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sharkman commented Sunday, 27 Jan 2019 at 2:41am

I didn't say ,"speed is what they are after more than grip ," concave has less wetted surface area , so when you are planing at high speed , with equal pressure thru both foot straps , you then lean back onto the back foot which engages the rail/edges and fins ....and very little concave there....there is supa grip , or drive and acceleration off the turn....but then if you don't make and surf them its all a moot point ......will be interesting to see if Surfing continues on its monhull journey , or whether multi-hulls actually will catch on , which means surfing faster!

x

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 commented Sunday, 27 Jan 2019 at 6:26am

what do you mean by multi-hulls in relation to surfboards Sharkman?

sharkman's picture
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sharkman commented Sunday, 27 Jan 2019 at 9:48pm

I think monohulls are like Vee d surfboards and that a Catamaran / tri-hull are deep concaves.....I have a surfboard with 1 1/4" concave , so fast it's sorta scary and turns at speeds like a tow board.....

I like the idea of going much faster than the normal board , but also being able to do high speed carves......the only way I can see more speed is less wetted surface area , using deep single concaves , and very little concave around the fins...already works on Tow boards!

x

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 29 Jan 2019 at 12:06am

For sure deep singles are great and why wouldn’t i love them. But they are not as easy to control at high speed as a deep double. Of course if the surface area gets small enough like a tow board then the lift decreases purely due to the lack of area, and grip and lift can match up more closely, but I’ll bet that both tow boards and paddle-in guns end up being deep double concaves in the near future.

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sharkman commented Tuesday, 29 Jan 2019 at 2:19am

tried the doubles , they were too limited at over 60KPH , started to cavitate , sanded out the spine of the double , reglassed the board , which added another gear...when and where do YOU actually test your theories ?

x

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 29 Jan 2019 at 12:34am

Gees mate they didn’t have to land on the moon to find out the gravity would be less. Nor do engineers need to actually build a bridge at a certain location to understand the forces and loads that will be experienced. Same for boat hulls that get tested at universities all over the world. They have a deep understanding of the dynamics behind the way forms move through water and use formulae that’s known in physics to make the predictions using cfd and then relate that to the data they found with the physical scale modelling and if the model gives slightly different results to the CFD analysis then they recalibrate the figures that go in the CFD.
Shapers do a similar thing every time they make a new board for themselves. You might make yourself a new board and it has more of this or that and less of this or whatever, and after decades of shaping you will have a pretty fucking good idea of how it will go. And the better you get at guessing then the more you know what you know. Especially if you do incredibly radical experiments as I do. Then you get the exaggerated reaction from a certain change in shape and so when you feel a hint of that feeling in any of the more more subtle versions you might make, then you can tell which one of the rail edges or depth of concave or size of fin or placement of fin or straightness of planshape or lack of flex or lack of volume was responsible for the increase in grip.
That’s why I’m saying that double concaves grip more than singles of the same depth.
And as for having an idea about boards for big waves. Well guess what? I don’t need to ride 20 foot waves to make Brent Symes a deep double concave 10 footer to know what needs to be done. And he claimed the grip. And with grip you get speed. Lift with no grip is useless. So all I have to go back to is the hundred or so 8 foot surfs the scores of 10 foot surfs and the handful of 10 - 12 foot surfs. But I’ll add whatever feedback I can into the mix and things like freeboarding at 40 knots and trying to get the rail in helped me to extrapolate from what 10 foot waves are like to what 15 foot waves will feel like. And then of course making guns for good to great surfers for waves up to 20 foot for over 30 years helped as well.

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sharkman commented Tuesday, 29 Jan 2019 at 2:27am

read my post above about why singles are better than doubles...

I actually have tested the boards from 10'-30' Tow boards guns with a big variety of the worlds top surfers , from Jaws to Waimea to Nazare and a few other spots....not just one surfer on one design.....your whole theory of burying the board in the waves is just delusional ......at least my testing is a bit more than yours...to compare flat water testing to big waves, FFS Greg give it a rest....you just keep digging yourself into black hole!

x

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 29 Jan 2019 at 9:03pm

sorry Maurice but you probably just don't understand what I am saying or you don't fully understand how boards work or a mix of both. I can tell by the way you describe the way boards work in your mind, like saying "less wetted surface area leads to more speed" Which is so simplistic when at times half of the board can be buried at almost 90 degrees to the water surface, under massive loads forcing the board up the face at great speed, (like a huge flexing fin) and then the board can release from the turn and totally exit the water with no wet surface area. The Herring video my brother Monty made called Journey On, shows the one heavily curved and heavily concave board doing the two extreme opposites, massive rails turns at high speed and then at another moment actually exiting the water after a pump, due to the more curved dent that the board had made. (he is merely unweighting and has no foot straps and isn't try to do a bunny hop, he just did a pump and it rides out of the dent like a small temporary ski jump) The overall generalisation you could try to imagine is that it's to do with the degree to which the surfboard matches with the curved dent that it's creating in the wave face, (rocker) in combination with the degree to which force can be applied without sliding.(vee or flat or concave) It's a combo of two three dimensional things ( board and water) in a relationship that varies hugely as you go from rail to rail. I didn't want to say the things that you've been saying since it's such a complex area to define and understand and you are definitely one of the best shapers in the world and you love deep concaves as I do. But your emotional/aggressive head space just dominates all of your writings, which i don't mind since I've had to deal with way worse customers than you. How about asking some other top level shapers if they think you have more of an idea of board design and function than me. let them read all of this thread and then get back to me. back to the actual discussion, when the double is on rail, it's just a smaller single anyway, a tighter one with more grip so you can't or don't really want to see that.
And what happens to the water that has to go over the sharp spine before entering the inside concave is of less significance, since it is always going to be happening in the top surface of the water where there is far less pressure than the water that the inside rail is feeling. That's why I've been doing a mix of rolled and sharp DCs since the late 80's Will and Ben rode rounded spined deep doubles for a year or more and said very good things about them.
And if I'm wrong in big waves then that's OK I don't attach my identity to any of the designs I've done. They're just physical things and if people love them or don't understand them or hate them or I if can break new ground then I'm fine with any of that.

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sharkman commented Tuesday, 29 Jan 2019 at 11:06pm

Just so you know everything I have said on here has been run by a guy called Scott Graham ( Google him) who is hydrodynamic genius who has worked on the design of America's Cups boats for decades , he worked on the Oracle Trimaran , and the New Zealand foil catamaran that won the last America's cup.....I learnt more off him in an hour than I have in decades of designing and testing.....so I will leave you to your bubble , how is the pool going ?
Yeah I get passionate when I see unsubstantiated design theories , not emotional or aggro...it's called passion.......your dismissal of less wetted surface area is a classic...it's a hydrodynamic formula....that relates to surfboards , watch Kai Lenny at Jaws.. enoug already ...I will stick to my hydrodynamic theories , and you can keep spewing forth your flawed design theories.....Kook Wisdom!

x

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 30 Jan 2019 at 9:50pm

Not that much similarity between the two craft sorry. Show me one yacht pump a turn to generate speed then maybe we can draw a parallel. Also we are constantly alternating between being a planing hull and a displacement hull. And on top of that when we get on rail, the rail becomes a mix of the sail and the keel!! And this will totally annoy you but I think every mono hull should be partly single concave underneath to create vastly more lift. Same for canoes and paddle skis powerboats and almost everything in the water. Some do use concaves but imagine you being given the task and the program to redesign all sorts of craft. I get excited by thinking of how vastly more shapers know about surfaces against water because we are the only ones using equipment that you can feel through your feet. The surfboard is about our height and we get to know it more intimately than any other craft can get known. Only top level motor cycle riders who understand the engineering of the thing would get close. Feeling the frame flex torsionally under great loads and then recoiling with control or without. Kind of like the way Curren flexed a thin yellow railed stickerless gun you made him at Haleiwa a long time ago. While everyone was talking about the lack of a brand on his board I was loving the twang that that board had. His close together stance enhancing it. So Maurice you rip ok. We don't see design the same way it seems and one day we should do a video chat on boards, but thanks for physically removing that guy at that party at Rocky Point in the 90's. Maybe you won't remember but some guy hit Boothy due to some drama between him and Liam at pipe and the punch missed me by a few inches. You picked him up by the arm pits and said something like "ok let's go over here for a while" Loved it.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 30 Jan 2019 at 9:53pm

yes skiers and snowboarders get to feel their equipment but one, it's not water and two, they don't go an hand shape something to the degree a shaper does.

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 29 Jan 2019 at 9:17pm

Oh yeah and to say FFS sake about flat water testing, that just highlights how little you understand. The wave is curved right?? and the flat water is flat right? and so you think that it's dumb to test a board on the flat water when the wave is so curved??
Don't you realise that by removing one complete element ( the curved wave) and testing a board that was designed for a curved wave, but on dead flat water, that you might just learn something? Remember too that the bottom of the wave is far less curved than the top and so if you can get grip at high speed on a surface that is totally flat (ie flat on both dimensions) that you might learn more about what's happening across the board. The rocker will not be having much fun and it'll all be down to what's happening at 90 degrees to the rocker. What wave faces do we struggle to grip on? Flat or bowly ones?

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sharkman commented Wednesday, 6 Feb 2019 at 2:13pm

I'll put my testing up against yours any day......mine is the ocean and yours is in your head!!

x

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 6 Feb 2019 at 4:10pm

Look at the pics and video of kelly. That's not in my head. It's real and people are saying one of the best turns ever done. If you can't see that board is going better than anything he's ridden in years, including my bananas, then you are just blocking it. If you want to put your money where your mouth is I challenge you to make the best board you can for Kelly, and I'll make the best board I can for your number one team rider and see what they say. Or better still, you and I make one board each for 5 surfers on tour and let them test them over the gap between events and video the whole thing. If you have all 5 guys saying that your boards are better then that's great for you. That proves that my boards are good but yours are even better. But that's where you're being childish. If mine are not as good then that's my problem, and guess what, I'd be stoked for you and just try to work out where i could improve them. And to prove that I'd truly be stoked for you I'll tell you one method I often use to reverse the resentment at being beaten by a rival...,
OK, I love my rugby and hate the Wallabies being beaten by the All Blacks, with a fucking passion, but you know what i do when they smash us, and the game is over, they are all smiling and hooting and cheering at smashing us, (which they love most of all), I try to be happy for their success and see their faces beaming and try to feel it the way they are feeling it. And you know what? That's good for all of us. It takes some of their power away to a degree too. And that helps me to realise that the only reason they love beating us so much is because we are the only team that can truly scare them. Which is why they did everything in their power to destroy Quade Cooper.

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sharkman commented Thursday, 7 Feb 2019 at 3:31am

"People " are saying one of the the best turns ever done.....haha ..you sound like Donald Trump! !
So Kelly is your team rider and will ride the creature in the upcoming CT season?
Bananas never worked and you know it...Herro did a couple of turns , rode a normal board in the Coke , then you put too much rocker in the boards so they didn;t work get a grip ol chap....
why don't we make it simple how bout you and I have a surf off ..Fossil vs Fossil , I got $1.50...wave has to be head high plus , you get to chose the first spot me the second.....
The all blacks are a better team the Wallies , end of story....no fear of of Aussie wallies!

x

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Greg Webber commented Thursday, 7 Feb 2019 at 2:35pm

Yes some people have said that and the last time I remember anyone saying something like that about a manoeuvre was Tom Carroll at pipe doing that top turn carve. Key moments where such things are being said are always worth giving a second look or thought.
That’s good! I love Trump and Jordan Peterson and I hate the left, and I want to be President of the Planet so Whoo hoo!
Nope Kelly isn’t my team rider but at the moment he is making some strong statements about the creature that i would love to have printed but can’t. Maybe we will do it as a model and maybe we won’t, I don’t mind either way. Got lots of other stuff happening at the moment so I can fully attack the board industry later.
Although I can admit that I’ve been working on a system for 3 years, that can make what appears to be an un-snap-able board, that’s 95% recyclable by mass, and might end up halving the new price of surfboards. And my vision with wave pools is that the actual waves are free. Which oddly enough will end up making great business sense if the developments around them are created in the right way.
Ok “Bananas never worked” will be the best comment ever to prove wrong. I’d love to shape you one!!
That’s like saying “that McLaren formula one car is so bad for parking in the city” The Banana was designed to push the limits of surfing, and although not an easy board to ride, many good surfers, not at the top but capable, said that they did some of the best turns of their lives on their bananas. Ask Adam Robbo about using them at Bells of all places. The video proves it. Amazing lines.
Even if Shane did just one turn that was above all else then that shows that something is going on with rocker and deep concave. Ask Kelly what he thinks about the turns Shane did on the Banana at Avalon that very first surf or check out my brother Monty’s film called ‘journey on’ about Shane. That’s why he wanted me to make some bananas. Then ask Darrick Doerner about how he thought Kelly surfed on his first banana at Haliewa a few years ago.
Anyway why are you giving the Banana shit when that is exactly what made everyone, including you, realise how good full nose to tail concave is. That’s exactly the bottom shape that you are claiming as the best bottom shape ever. Very, very few shapers used the full nose to tail concave until I bent the rocker much more in 92. Only the banana woke up the rest of the surfing world that the vee was out. Shane beating Kelly in the Coke contest didn't do it. The moderately rockered full concaves I was doing since 86 were being tested by very few pro surfers. The majority were a bit scared. I gave one to Barton and he went straight back to the vee bottom for understandable safety reasons. Competing didn’t favour the risk.
As for the surf-off sure, but not at the expense of having our best surfers use both of our boards and truly see who’s better. That’s should be first. I don’t care in the least if I lose either challenge but you sure as hell do.
And you totally missed my point with the All Blacks. Nothing worse than being beaten by a team that you’re better than. That’s what scares them. The wallabies are not better but they hate being beaten by us and we have flashes of absolute brilliance. And that’s what unsettles them....occasionally!
Anyway it’s been fun Maurice and if you want to do the shaper test with team riders then just email me and we can organise it. When I get back in Australia I’ll make a new board and see if we can do your surf off which proves nothing about boards but only which old guy is less unfit, but at least you might win that one. Gees! What if I beat you. Ha. [email protected]

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sharkman commented Thursday, 7 Feb 2019 at 8:17am

haha Greg , I am sure I am not as fit as you , so you would probably win....and as for the bananas , Tom and I rode them in France , another story of how the design didn't work , but lets not go there it's a bit embarrassing , hope that Kelly loves your new creature and can make back some $'s after the banana fiasco , all the best to you , hope your pool works out and your new surfboard construction.....I have no team riders .....that's why I suggested you and me....haha.....oh and just so you know had a lot of other shapers reading this thread...Timmy and Matt say Hi!

x

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Greg Webber commented Thursday, 7 Feb 2019 at 2:41pm

2.55 into this edit by Adam Robbo of Kelly. A 5'10" Banana.

https://www.facebook.com/Webber.Surfboards/videos/10154320110429224/

Hi To Matt and Timmy!

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sharkman commented Friday, 8 Feb 2019 at 3:07am

so ?? what's so special about the GOAT 's surfing at his favourite spot?

x

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 9:47pm

I like it when there’s some new area to explore and the time and funds to experiment with many more boards. Sounds like you’re having lots of fun with all he different craft you have.

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wallpaper commented Friday, 25 Jan 2019 at 9:48pm

I never realised surfing could be such a headache

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 5:17pm

Ha! perfect timing for that kind of comment.

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velocityjohnno commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 2:20pm

Thank you Greg for explaining your design fully. Do you have a preference for a sharp spine to the double concaves (as Island Bay mentioned) or is it possible to do a softer, more rounded spine for better performance? Also, I got the impression from the diagram that the apex of the concaves sits higher than the bottom on the rail edges - is this true?

In many years of surfing and making my own boards, I like the single to double when the double is a 'spiral vee' - ie, concaves existing within the vee panel (which apexes both across the board and down its length). Over time, I've gone from a sharper spine to the softer spine, as Wally Froseith called it, the 'calculated drag'. Other than that, just simple flat to vee can be enjoyable for me. Thank you for expanding my mind, now I'm thinking about just how the concaves in the spiral vee could terminate at the rail, visualising them create more lift during the hydroplane of the rail. I think the deck concaves and thickness distribution is a real advance, well done!

There was one crew online who put little 'hairs' of tape along the bottom of their board then filmed it with a camera mounted in the rear fin - results were fascinating. Their allegory was the bottom of the board being like the underside of an airplane wing (rather than simply 'planing upon water' or 'displacing water in turns'). Wonder if I can find the link? Cheers anyway

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 26 Jan 2019 at 5:32pm

good questions, can answer one bit, since have been asked to go swimming in a river with some decent current which is exciting. You have to grab an overhanging branch of a fallen tree as you fly by, and then climb out over the mud laden branches. No waves here in northern Thailand so this is my water fun.
Anyway, I do mainly the DC with roll between the concaves. My Diamond model has this bottom and is super smooth between transitions. Only one thing that I prefer with the sharp spined DC is that the top of the concaves with the rolled version is then much closer to the the rail edge and that geometry probably is under utilising the potential for lift. But with the vast proportion of boards that is what you want. Super forgiving with very smooth transitions between turns due to the roll in the middle. But for the absolute maximum performance I'm pretty sure that the sharp spined DC is the best bottom shape possible. Adam Robertson has ridden almost every single or double concave I've made over the last 5 or more years and he works closely with Kelly and he said the sharp sided double is it.

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 27 Jan 2019 at 10:47am

I guess you’re meaning that the apex of the concave being higher that the rail edges is when the board is on the wave or resting deck up, not sitting on some stands being viewed. And if so then yes they are higher that the rail edges since the vee isn’t that steep. And yes I love the softer centre spine for smoothness but I like the placement of the tops of the concaves dead centre between the stringer and the outside rail for increasing lift. The more you roll the centre spine the closer you move the top of the concave to the rail edge and then what your turning on is half of a wave shape like half of a sine curve with convex merging into a concave. Might need another video if Stu is up for it since diagrams are needed. Could answer some other questions too

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 27 Jan 2019 at 10:53am

Would like to see their study those guys did under the water with the filaments. Another way would be in the lab in a towing tank with the board at certain angles but with fluorescent particles in the water and UV lights. We used that method to look inside the tube at water movements that you cannot see with video when the surface gets too distorted. Then you would see exactly what the water is doing without the filament being straightened a bit due to the drag that increases with length. All fun to watch in real time and slo mo

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velocityjohnno commented Thursday, 31 Jan 2019 at 4:56pm

Think I've lost the link sadly, I will keep looking for it. Was video footage rather than a paper, but very illuminating in how the flow behaves at the rail and just beyond it as it leaves the board (or the board leaves it!)

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andyb commented Sunday, 27 Jan 2019 at 12:39pm

Greg have you got my order for one 5,10 27 ltrs tried sending u an email but didn't work hope to hear from you Andy B

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 30 Jan 2019 at 9:12pm

all sorted sorry for the muck around Andy

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Albertinelli commented Sunday, 27 Jan 2019 at 6:08pm

If anybody wants to talk to a Guru on concave's talk to Mitchell Rae of Outer Island Surfboards in Urunga NSW. Mitchell has been using concaves in his boards since the early 70's. He also includes concaves with Carbon Flextails. Definitely worth your while.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 30 Jan 2019 at 9:11pm

He's a master of concaves, no question.

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PeteWebb commented Sunday, 27 Jan 2019 at 6:38pm

Hey Greg, what part of Nthern Thailand are you are in at the moment? Asking as lived there for over a decade running adv tours so its my second home.

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 29 Jan 2019 at 9:19pm

No way, how fun hey. You the peter webb in know from bells?

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PeteWebb commented Wednesday, 30 Jan 2019 at 9:04pm

Lived at Bondi 81-84 while at uni. 3rd ramp.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 30 Jan 2019 at 9:08pm

Oh OK got you, didn't think the Bell's beach version went up there. I'm not far from Uttaradit about 50m from the Nan river. Tiny town but so nice. Good people as you would know.

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jacksprat commented Monday, 28 Jan 2019 at 2:28pm

Lots of obvious structural problems. The more foam taken off the deck, the softer the foam. Would you have to get customized blanks? How will said blanks go in a profiler? Will they all need to be hand shaped? Molded? Glassing becomes more of a complication, particularly the filler. Will the average punter want to pay more for it?

onetimeonly

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Lanky Dean commented Monday, 28 Jan 2019 at 3:15pm

Pending on blank materials
Lamination technique, cloth weave , lay up.
It may be an even stronger board.

Do some study on engineering principals . centriods. Material sheer . chemical bond vs mechanical bond.

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 29 Jan 2019 at 9:32pm

Thanks to this thread I've been approached by a professor of materials who wants to test the Creature for flex and strength. After signing an NDA I'll be making three boards for him to test and eventually destroy. All identical barring the deck shapes. Standard deck roll, a Creature DC deck, and another one that might be patentable.
Nose to tail flex as well as twist flex and the rate at which an induced vibration diminishes, as well as the character of that flex vibration. He and I are both super keen and of course we will publish what we can with Swellnet. He surfs too which helps. Might have to be EPS to negate the PU foam density inconsistencies from blank to blank.

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 29 Jan 2019 at 9:22pm

they're managing quite well so far. And one team rider has been using them for 5 years and I'll ask if he's snapped any but don;t think so. Probably slightly stronger and yes down the line could be molded in all sorts of ways.

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Lanky Dean commented Monday, 28 Jan 2019 at 3:25pm

I just want to add that a lot of people are saying that the foam is softer in the middle of the blank.
So if your boards are getting heinous pressure ding you need to consider running 6×4 on the deck and 6 on the bottom of the boards. Or pending what coast you live running 6X4 top and bottom.
If your relying on the blank for structural integrity, then your boards are not glassed properly........regardless of how thick or thin they are.

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wingnut2443 commented Friday, 1 Feb 2019 at 7:17am

What happened to the video of Kelly surfing the board?

Surfboard Design and Construction Kook. Evidence is here: www.ffwsurfboards.com.au
*FFW - Few Fun Waves ... that's what it's all about for me.

thermalben's picture
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thermalben commented Friday, 1 Feb 2019 at 7:38am

'Tis midway down the comments in this article (published the day before):

https://www.swellnet.com/news/design-outline/2019/01/22/greg-webber-and-his-concaved-creature

Here it is: 

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andosbf commented Friday, 1 Feb 2019 at 8:18am

just ordered one! looking forward to try it, we gotta be willing to try something new in order to evolve.

thanks Webber(pionners like him) for experimenting, trying new things, otherwise we would still surfing on wood plates

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[email protected] HARN commented Friday, 1 Feb 2019 at 8:29pm

Hi Greg...KD here. I want to try one. Am living in Phuket near Nai Harn and enjoying life here...so are you by the sounds of it. It is very different to life in Av and much more diverse...the crew that surf here are an "all nations" outfit with heaps of experience and history. I am still riding your boards or derivatives from them...by Na with your blessing and now need to tune in more to our local conditions here...this sounds like a good change and one thing I noticed is need for volume and stability as some of the breaks require early to feet.
Just gave a local kid that old blue CD you made a fair while ago...he is stoked. Can we discuss measurements and subtleties...

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wingnut2443 commented Sunday, 3 Feb 2019 at 8:37am

FWIW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpz1BZ_YtXQ&feature=youtu.be

Bit of a backstory here (just noticed the pictures aren't loading - have to look into it):

http://www.ffwsurfboards.com.au/the-fup/

more here too:

http://www.ffwsurfboards.com.au/fup-update/

Boards sitting here, been surfed a couple of times, but now a bit under volume for me.

Should make it a traveler for a few of you to try out. You wanna start @thermalben?

Surfboard Design and Construction Kook. Evidence is here: www.ffwsurfboards.com.au
*FFW - Few Fun Waves ... that's what it's all about for me.

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thermalben commented Sunday, 3 Feb 2019 at 8:39am

I'll give it a crack!

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julesblack commented Sunday, 3 Feb 2019 at 11:54am

being 50 i would just like to say that i really don't want young people to miss out on the drift of a bottom turn when you don't have the traction it rules

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jaunkemps commented Saturday, 9 Feb 2019 at 4:30pm

Really this guy is a famous shaper, whats with the lingo he's using, to me it sounds that he is not thought this through before going to air, anyways thats my take on it........
• Q1 - I was always told that a softer rail has more bite, that being the case with this so called double concave is the rail sharper, softer or pinched ?
• Q2 - How far is the resin pinched up from the tail, I'd think this would play a big part in the rail holding or releasing ?
A curved surface is always stiffer than a flat surface, that aint rocket science I learnt that in 3 form metalwork.
I do like the deck profile that makes sense, that should have been done years ago.
Best of luck trying to get this all correct with your next custom homies ; } Giddyup

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stunet commented Monday, 18 Feb 2019 at 9:27am

Lot of talk about deep concaves on this thread, particularly between Greg and 'Sharkman', which reminds me of this design of Greg's:

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Blowin commented Monday, 18 Feb 2019 at 9:52am

Anyone ever try to ride that bad boy ?

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lostdoggy commented Monday, 18 Feb 2019 at 9:54am

The true reverse vee! Sorry sharkman :D

I can't see that working.

Any footage of someone trying to make that float? I can see foot depressions.

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stunet commented Monday, 18 Feb 2019 at 10:10am

Had a chat with Greg over the weekend about his designs in extremis. His rationale? When a board is balanced it's very hard for a rider, and even the shaper, to tell what's happening. Think of drive, is it the shape of the fins that's creating it, the position of them, the rocker, the concave, or the rails? What's causing it?

So by distorting one of those elements, in this case concave, though he's done similar experiments with rocker and with planshape, the shaper can seperate the various elemnets and get a better idea of what each one is doing.

Not sure of the results of this one.

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lostdoggy commented Monday, 18 Feb 2019 at 10:20am

Yeh I've read those comments or similar on here before.
To me, and this is just from visual speculation of the above, I think that board has gone way too far and you wouldn't learn anything other than it's a dog.

I think you'd learn a lot more from, say, 3 or more boards that are as close as the shaper can produce to the same and then just altering the concave depths from there.

I'm sure both Greg and Maurice have done this kind of experimenting as well though.

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sharkman commented Monday, 18 Feb 2019 at 12:14pm

OK Stu..I bite...

"Had a chat with Greg over the weekend about his designs in extremis. His rationale? When a board is balanced it's very hard for a rider, and even the shaper, to tell what's happening. Think of drive, is it the shape of the fins that's creating it, the position of them, the rocker, the concave, or the rails? What's causing it?"

So if the board is unbalanced that s when we can tell what's happening??

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