America and guns

thermalben's picture
thermalben started the topic in Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 8:10am

A very sad morning. Unfortunately, it seems only The Onion can adequately cover this story, with the same piece they keep publishing over and over. 

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thermalben commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 8:10am

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 9:25am

Based on their logic you'd think the USA would at least be leading the world in Mental Health research by now.

Gotta love the onion. One of the few seppo outlets that seem to understand sarcasm.

A couple more hard hitting headlines I saw there this morning..

http://www.theonion.com/article/nra-says-mass-shootings-just-unfortunate...

http://www.theonion.com/article/americans-hopeful-will-be-last-mass-shoo...

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 5:47pm

You have to be a gun totting American to remotely understand this.
They can't see what the rest of the world can clearly see.
America the land of the free ........ no thanks

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 6:51pm

Horrific stuff. But we can put up all the bollards you like, destroy every gun. The fact is, when people want to do ghastly things, they will find a way. A nursing home or child care centre could be set on fire with a few litres of petrol and a box of matches. What then? Its impossible to ban petrol, impossible to ban matches... Nutters will find a way.

As far as the American gun culture goes, it may be hard for for folk living in the tweed, or Manly, or Frankston to get it, where the biggest threat you'll encounter is warding off a red belly black snake with a rake. People up in the top end get it. You're living on the outskirts of Portland Oregon, and you have a 9 foot high grizzly going beserk in your back yard, with your kid cornered, or a brown bear, or a mountain lion, you'll be stoked to have a high calibre semi auto in the house. And that's how it' been for 300 years.
We take it for granted here, being able to go bushwalking or live on the edge of town except for croc and razor back country up north.. USA, Africa, even South America can be bloody dangerous even on the edge of cities.. There's some big scary critters out there, not of the human variety.

Sheepdog

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 7:03pm

Sheepy, you obviously havent been to Frankston lately

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goofyfoot commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 7:04pm

And people don't need assault rifles to scare off mountain lions

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Blowin commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 8:26pm
indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 8:37pm

OMG Blowin that link really puts things in perspective...(obviously USA has a much bigger population but still thats impressive from an Aussie perspective)

Don't know about you guys this is an issue where as an Australian i kind of feel proud, and I'm not anti guns, although I've never done it myself i still respect that people may want to go down a shooting range and fire at a target or go hunting with a rifle and shoot some deer or something.

I think in Australia we have the balance just right on this issue.

Please Stunet give me an ignore button for Talking Turkey, Shatners Basoon, Dale Cooper, Factotum, Pupkin, and any new fake profile he decides to create.

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 8:41pm

Goofy, a .22 would be like a mozzie bite to an 800lb grizzly. I'm just pointing out the reality of living in the American boondocks, and how living on a continent with big scary fuckn beasts is different to living here. I have some dear friends over there, Oregon, Texas, and Delaware.

Now owning 40 guns.... That's a whole different thing... That's preparing for war.. I think a smart American politician has to tread slowly but surely to ween folk off stockpiling. It's a process that will take a long time... Trying to take all guns away from Americans wont go down well.... But saying "hey 40 guns is ludicrous - you can have 4 - a semi auto, a marksman, a shot gun, and a hand gun".
Whilst that aint perfect, the pro gun people cant really argue with that.. And it would stop a guy like the vegas dude owning 20 odd loaded semi autos..... The death toll would've been waaaay less if he only had one semi... Yes people would've still died, but not fifty fucking nine.

Sheepdog

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 8:42pm

Still dont see the logic sheepy.

A lever action .308 is pretty serious and completely legal. If people need more firepower than that they must be trying to shoot down russian satellites. We had a .303 growing up and jesus christ theres just no point to it.

Its not like the hills of Portland oregon are crawling with the vietcong.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 8:48pm

He's a turd, but credit where it's due, Howard done good and this photo is one of the best from the Oz Pol portfolio: facing a pro-gun rally wearing a bullet-proof vest.

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 8:50pm

It's ingrained, Gaz..... I said that earlier.... Ingrained since the first pilgrim got torn to shreds by a grizzly... Other things too, like "the british are coming"..... It's a totally different mindset than our "keep your head down and you wont get whipped by the guards" convict mentality.
Maaaan there's so much to this.. But I dont really feel like essay writing tonight lol.

BTW, that 900lb grizzly...... One bearing down on you like a old woman island cyclone freight train, and one bearing down on me..... You've got the lever action..... I've got the AK...
Good luck :)

Sheepdog

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 8:52pm

Hate or love him theres very few with the guts to make social changes like that anymore. Not since the 24 hour news cycle ruined politics.

You have to ask - if someone needs a tripod for their semi automatic assault rifle, what the fuck are they using it for?!

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 9:11pm

Bears Gaz, bears!

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tworules commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 9:20pm

So much gun shooting is presented as entertainment in tv-movies and video games.

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 9:27pm

Also, Gaz, the world is obsessed with everything in the USA... And there are cameras everywhere. Every fart is caught on camera.
The USA isn't even in the top 10 for gun related homocide. But we see every mass shooting because that's the way it is.
For example, Brazil, a country with VERY STRICT gun laws, had 59000 gun related homocides in 2014, , 3 times the rate of the gun friendly USA.
That's 980 Las Vegas's in a year!!!!!
A YEAR, Gaz......
But they're a poor country without CNN or Fox or NBC, and they speak some weird freekn language, so who fuckn cares, right?

Sheepdog

soggydog's picture
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soggydog commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 9:31pm

Hey Sheepy,I lived in the Canadian wilderness for a number of years. Out of town in the woods, in the Rockies,in a national Park with all the big scary animals you mention that could "come get you or your kids".
I hiked, mountain biked, camped and ski toured with all my mates and not one of us ever talked about the need to own a firearm for safety in the wilderness. Fire arms, of which there are a lot of in Canada where only ever linked to hunting or crime.
I know of a park ranger who defended himself in the back country from a grizzly with a can of pepper spray. I also have had a friend who was stalked by a mountain lion and defended himself by placing his bicycle between himself and the lion.
Guns are for scaredy cats.

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 9:33pm

No probs sheepy do you think the bear will wait for you to set up your tripod first?

I dont think that anyone who needs more than a dozen rounds from such a powerful weapon on a single animal is qualified to use it. When does it change from self defense to just being a butcher?

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 9:38pm

Interesting brazil stat thats mental

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 11:18pm

Guns? Better hope your aim is up to scratch. Bear spray is a more logical choice for the average person. I hiked a bit in Canada, barely even saw bears in the distance let alone face one. Did have a grown male moose stroll out near me on a clearing though. It was off season and it walked off after a minute or so. Still shat myself nonetheless.

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Jamyardy commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 12:06am

I spent a little bit of time in some of the remote regions of US and Canada. Seen heaps of black bears, close range in Canada, especially around spring time, the moose were harmless (unless with young), and I only ever encountered one wolf. The locals could not wait for hunting season to kick in. I knew a bloke in the US who had 30 guns in his basement, most of his peers well over 10 guns. They also loved the hunting season, and guns in general. I did actively seek to view grizzlies and mountain lion, but no luck. I did hear on the radio that some 50% of households in the US are home to a gun, I lost count how many times a child had shot and killed another child because they found dad's loaded gun. I don't think the bulk of the US population needs guns for protection from animals. It is more about the right to bear arms, whether they need them or not. I haven't been to Brazil, but I have been to countries with higher murder rates per capita than Brazil, mostly gun related, mostly turf, gang, drug related crimes. Some US cities are in the top echelons for per capita murders.

thermalben's picture
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thermalben commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 7:20am

I've done a couple of snow seasons in Canada and none of the locals I befriended owned guns. As per Soggydog, most people worried about bear encounters when hiking stashed a can of pepper spray in their backpacks.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 7:41am

How many states of USA have big grizzly bears?

Im sure for these area's where it's a realistic issue it would make sense to have a special licence.

But for 99.9% of Americans, i really don't think there is a logical reason to have a high powered gun or semi automatic weapon.

Im sure they would all do just fine if they had the same gun laws as we do in Australia, although it would take a very very long time to change the culture.

Please Stunet give me an ignore button for Talking Turkey, Shatners Basoon, Dale Cooper, Factotum, Pupkin, and any new fake profile he decides to create.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 7:56am

I thought the constitution guaranteed the right to bear arms as a means to restrain the potential for oppression from their own government .

Can't say I blame them for fearing oppression from the US government to be honest.

Distracted's picture
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Distracted commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 8:00am

Majority don't have guns due to wildlife fears, it's the fear of other people with guns.
Due to the amount of guns and a trigger happy population the police then shoot first with nearly 1100 people killed by police in the USA in 2016. Last year there was also 64 police shot and killed while on the job. It is a Wild West mentality.

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stunet commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 8:31am

Guns are embedded in the culture, no doubt about it, though it's curious how mass killings have ramped up in the last fifty years. Yesterday I read an article about the 1965 University of Texas massacre by Charles Whitman, the first mass murder of its kind - premeditated, elevated, designed to take as many lives as possible.

When the shots started being fired the cops had no protocol to follow; they were taken by surprise and didn't know how to respond. In the fifty years previous to Whitman there'd been 25 mass killings (not sure how many death determined their criteria), yet in the fifty years since there's been 150. A 600% increase.

No doubt there's an insidious seed within American culture, and the Froot Loops have been enabled by high powered arms and an increasingly brazen NRA, but mass killings seem a distinctly modern phenomena.

These as distinct from bog standard gun deaths, which are simply the desire to kill the person who disrespected you/ripped you off/looked at you funny and form the bulk of statistics in Brazil, Honduras, Columbia, and Guetamala, or the extreme political act which has a clear root cause.

Mass killings morph some nebulous grievance about society into a single destructive deed. It's both a modern development and a distinctly American idea.

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GuySmiley commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 8:36am

That photo of Howard says a lot about the meaning of real political leadership. The LNP Qld Premier also lost the next election also on the back of the buy-back.

Wasn't that "bear" argument also used here some 18-24 months ago in respect of feral pigs and the banning/restriction of that 12 shot semi automatic shot gun?

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GuySmiley commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 8:38am
stunet's picture
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stunet commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 9:43am

Facebook is offering some genuinely depressing reading about US gun control and why it'll never, ever get traction. Don't bother arming yourself with reason and logic, it has no place in the debate, and if you can't do without it I'd suggest not even entering the fray. Truly despairing stuff...

Rabbits68's picture
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Rabbits68 commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 9:46am

Jim nailed it years ago.......

https://youtu.be/0rR9IaXH1M0

Crystal Clear

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50young commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 9:47am

If it wasn't so depressing it is almost comical listening to some of the arguments that gun control doesn't work, or is constitutionally wrong :(

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 10:05am

It seems like the gun lobby has transformed the whole USA into the wild west just to make some cash. The tail seems to be very much wagging the dog and its just a messed up situation all round. There's yet to be a credible excuse that people need to own a Bushmaster AR-15 that fire 5.56 NATO rounds and all the bells and whistles like bi-pod/tripod, flash hiders, uv sights night vision etc for any reason other than to kill other people that have a similar weapon.

The whole bear/pig/adler shotgun argument was just cheap political point scoring I reckon. You can get big calibre lever/pump action rifles already that are completely legal and the same goes for shotguns. The greens just wanted to push an agenda there I can't believe how much air time the situation received.

I don't think patrol cops even carry guns in the UK?

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Gaz1799 commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 10:15am

@SN one of the saddest yet most rational arguments I've seen on facebook is that there are simply too many guns in the USA now to ever fix the situation. The gun lobby has gone all in to make sure that guns can never be regulated.

People live in fear and have this demented theory that the safest way to survive an encounter with some maniac who has a gun is to get out a gun of their own and try to kill the other person first.

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 12:50pm

Gaz writes "No probs sheepy do you think the bear will wait for you to set up your tripod first?"

I said ak.... As in Ak47.... Since when do you need a tripod for an ak47????????
Leave the gun specs talk alone bro. ;)

I note everyone is simply concentrating on the grizzly thing.... As I also stated, "the british are coming".... There's many facets to the gun culture in the USA. The wildlife was first, the indian wars, the British, the civil war..... It's more deep rooted than just the bears.... But that was where it all started. if our settlers had to deal with bears, or lions, or Rhinos, we would have a very different culture, probably similar to the European settlers of South Africa or Zimbabwe, where it's weird if you DON'T own a gun, even before Mandela. Then if we had've had a war of independence with England, and a huge civil war between NSW and Qld, we might be able to relate to the generational hand me down love affair with gun ownership in the USA.
It'd be like saying alcohol kills and maims thousands upon thousands of people here in Australia, which it does, car accidents, general accidents, disease, bashings, broken homes, lost work time, so we're banning alcohol.... We're sick of the carnage.
Well you watch the alcohol industry and 99.9% of you guys defend alcohol, even with the carnage it causes.
That's the mindset you are dealing with re the USA gun folk

Sheepdog

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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 1:04pm

In Australia - 15 deaths PER DAY!!!!!! That's a Las vegas every FOUR DAYS.
Hospitalises 430 Australians PER DAY!!! This study was in 2010.. And the death rate increased SIXTY TWO % since the last study in 2000. That's even after all the attempted cutlure changing government advertising which started in the mid 1980s.

So if anyone thinks that another mass shooting is going to change the gun culture in the USA, you're fuckn dreaming... We can't even stop people from destroying their livers.

https://www.vichealth.vic.gov.au/media-and-resources/media-releases/alco...

Sheepdog

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 1:34pm

They fire the same round sheepy and I think you may have missed the point.

Alcohol wasn't invented to blow people to bits. Do you think the militarization of the US police force is in any way related to the increased militarization of the population? I do.

Where did you find the 15 deaths per day info? I couldn't find much on it. 5,500 people per year seems very high for Australia.

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Gaz1799 commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 1:54pm

An article that does a good job of outlining the faith-like gun-cult following you mentioned sheepdog

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/why-americans-will-never-give...

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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 2:00pm

I added a link above Gaz.... You doubt me? lol.
as for "they fire the same round", no they don't... Please stop with the guns stuff, mate.
Please lol

Sheepdog

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 2:03pm

Don't usually dig Hildebrand but that was good, Gaz.

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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 2:07pm

What's also amazing is how quickly the Australian federal and state governments have jumped on this to use it as a tool to take away more rights.. Hiding in the shadow of death, Turnbull announces new laws to hold people for 2 weeks without arrest. NSW announces that people can remain in jail even after completing their time.

Sheepdog

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Gaz1799 commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 2:27pm

Your link is for alcohol not gun deaths tho sheepdog? Or did I glance past it? I just couldn't find the stat when I researched it myself. It's pretty serious.

Ah you're right on the ak I always thought they fired bigger rounds. We've got a 308 inherited through family stored with a load of others. Fires the nato variant amongst others but all rounds do the same thing on a farm. Like all guns they never get used.

Cheers stu every now and then Hildebrand throws out something half coherent

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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 5:37pm

Gaz...... that's what you asked for...... you said "Where did you find the 15 deaths per day info?"

My post was about alcohol, with a link.. It was a continuation on from my previous post directly above it, where I was talking about alcohol culture here... And the link i provided clearly states 15 deaths a day from alcohol, in the same post where I state 15 deaths a day..

Sheepdog

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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 5:38pm

Gaz..... I wouldn't throw those guns if I was you....... Could be mad max material very soon.... You could be the king in your area bahahahaha

Sheepdog

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lukas commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 6:30pm

hey gaz hook up with paul, sorry pauline, she will fly around like a looper, & at some stage land next ta ya. grab all ya shit, guns & ammo & fly off into the distance with that , um red neck. once your up there, you may find that, you pair are lost, confused & fuckin scared, call me & i shall put ya both where ya belong....... don't get me wrong you will land, ( hit the ground ).

hynz

udo's picture
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udo commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 7:17pm

Claims of Phillipines ISIS link to Vegas Shootings

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 8:04pm

There'll be all sort of claims, udo... But something is a bit "off" with this whole thing.
Every answer creates 3 more questions... Saw some very odd video footage of what looked like gun fire coming from the 4th floor..

Sheepdog

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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 8:09pm
happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 8:10pm

there must have been a second shooter....

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 8:12pm

There was an Article today already discussing brain Autopsy and genetics and all kinds of weird shit. Now Filipino isis . Whats next?

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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 4 Oct 2017 at 8:16pm

I don't know, happy.... Perhaps a weird reflection? But it definitely is a bit suss.
And how did he log 300lb of equipment up there? And how did he rig up all the cameras? And how did he disarm the security and fire alarms? This wasn't an ex marine... This was an untrained real estate agent.
As I said, for every answer there's 3 more questions.
Don't expect to be told the full truth.

Sheepdog