2022 Election
Little Johnny must be so proud.
Supafreak wrote:Little Johnny must be so proud.
Such a wonderful legacy!
WTF does John Howard have to do with any of this?
Albanese and King just signed off on a Heads of agreement which now sees the East coast has price at $80/GJ. With a stroke of their pens they could’ve implemented the exact same Domestic gas reservation model employed by Western Australia which is providing WA with gas at $4.50/ GJ.
That’s trillions of dollars worth of Australian,only being syphoned by foreign multinationals who pay zero tax. China- Australia’s strategic competitor/ threat- is getting 70% of our gas whilst Australians go without.
This isn’t just a direct rape of Australian wealth, the scale of which is almost impossibility to conceive, it’s also an incredible inflationary burden on every Australian commercial and domestic activity. The price of gas dictates the price of electricity for every household, bakery, factory, farm and office. The price of gas dictates the price of fertilisers for agricultural, the cost of food and water supply and everything else.
Manufacturing will cease. Households already struggling with mortgages and cooked wages , will have cost of electricity destroy their ability to survive.
And the, .the icing on the cake of this ALP corruption and ineptitude , is the fact that the government will then borrow billions of dollars to subsidise the cost of electricity which will come out of taxpayer’s pockets and at the expense of our health, welfare and education sectors as well as every other government provided social service.
Fuck the ALP . Fuck Albo. Fuck Madeline King.
Absolute pack of cunts.
And then King will do the Martin Ferguson post-politics stroll into her board positions in the energy industry, which is her reward for arse raping Australia. Big round of applause for Maddy.
And while all this and much, much more unfolds, you get utter clowns such as this bleating their partisan party boosterism rubbish. They need to be thrown in a burning dumpster alongside Albo and King:
GuySmiley wrote:
“I see the usual naysayers, doomsayers, conspiracy theorists and devotees of self flagellation are again out salivating with excitement about how the Labor government has sold out the country all in 4 months.”
tbf nothing has changed since my Aussie grandfather was slaving all day selling his cane for 4 pence a tonne, then buying at great markup the sugar products after they'd been refined offshore and re-imported so Nana could bake a cake.
After a while you become hardened to the stupidity of it all
You want to change things? Value add, yourself.
Supafreak wrote:@DSDS , so is the article basically saying gas will be more than 3 times the current price ? Sounds like political suicide.
@DSDS , I asked you this yesterday , also I can’t find anything from other news sources which seems a bit strange , why the silence ?
East coast under the newHeads of Agreement by ALP will be paying net back price (international price minus transport costs). Western Australia has domestic gas reservation.
East coast price = $80/ GJ ( todays price rates)
WA price =$4/Gj
You think it’s strange that the MSM isn’t broadcasting the Government corruption? Lol. They’ve got covid Wuflu isolation mandate stories to fill up the first three pages instead.
Here’s the SMH with their extensive one article coverage of the biggest rort in Australia’s history
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/gas-giants-government-strike-dom...
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:WTF does John Howard have to do with any of this?
Albanese and King just signed off on a Heads of agreement which now sees the East coast has price at $80/GJ. With a stroke of their pens they could’ve implemented the exact same Domestic gas reservation model employed by Western Australia which is providing WA with gas at $4.50/ GJ.
That’s trillions of dollars worth of Australian,only being syphoned by foreign multinationals who pay zero tax. China- Australia’s strategic competitor/ threat- is getting 70% of our gas whilst Australians go without.
This isn’t just a direct rape of Australian wealth, the scale of which is almost impossibility to conceive, it’s also an incredible inflationary burden on every Australian commercial and domestic activity. The price of gas dictates the price of electricity for every household, bakery, factory, farm and office. The price of gas dictates the price of fertilisers for agricultural, the cost of food and water supply and everything else.
Manufacturing will cease. Households already struggling with mortgages and cooked wages , will have cost of electricity destroy their ability to survive.
And the, .the icing on the cake of this ALP corruption and ineptitude , is the fact that the government will then borrow billions of dollars to subsidise the cost of electricity which will come out of taxpayer’s pockets and at the expense of our health, welfare and education sectors as well as every other government provided social service.
Fuck the ALP . Fuck Albo. Fuck Madeline King.
Absolute pack of cunts.
And then King will do the Martin Ferguson post-politics stroll into her board positions in the energy industry, which is her reward for arse raping Australia. Big round of applause for Maddy.
And while all this and much, much more unfolds, you get utter clowns such as this bleating their partisan party boosterism rubbish. They need to be thrown in a burning dumpster alongside Albo and King:
GuySmiley wrote:
“I see the usual naysayers, doomsayers, conspiracy theorists and devotees of self flagellation are again out salivating with excitement about how the Labor government has sold out the country all in 4 months.”
My take is that Howard set up initial deal where this situation started? You may be correct or not, I don't know whether Albo could have changed the deal with strike of pen? I'm guessing it's a little more complex than that. Probably a lot of ramifications that would stem from such an action. I don't know, but yes it does seem we are being taken for ride.
I wrote in my previous post though that Australia should be taking a serious look at situation such as changing contracts or tax set up as I have in past.
So it’s already moved from $23 to $80 ?
Here’s the SMH article:
Major gas producers have promised to offer all available LNG supply to Australian buyers before shipping it overseas in a deal with the federal government to prevent a predicted shortfall on the east coast next year.
But Australia’s gas buyers are disappointed the agreement fails to address the soaring gas price, warning high energy costs are pushing some manufacturers to breaking point.
The competition watchdog last month forecast a shortage of 56 petajoules in 2023 – about 10 per cent of domestic demand – escalating concerns over rising costs for gas-reliant manufacturers, and prompting Resources Minister Madeleine King to threaten unprecedented export controls if the industry failed to boost domestic supply.
Queensland producers Origin Energy-backed APLNG, Shell’s QCLNG joint venture and Santos’ GLNG committed on Thursday to offer the 157 petajoules that won’t be tied up in export contracts to the domestic market before overseas clients over the next 12 months.
King, who had renewed warnings exporters would face penalties in recent days, hailed the deal as a win, saying it included several measures that would “put downward pressure on prices” for local gas buyers.
The agreement requires producers to provide more information to the market on the amount of gas produced and volumes available at any given time.
LNG companies have also committed to offering gas contracts to local buyers at no more than the cost of the export spot market less the price of processing and shipping, known as the netback price.
“This agreement will ensure Australians continue to have access to secure and reliable gas,” King said.
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Australia’s trading partners, which are grappling with gas shortages due to a global energy crunch caused by a ban on Russian exports, have been pressuring the government to ensure export contracts are not disrupted by domestic policy.
King said the heads of agreement ensured LNG companies’ export contracts were not affected.
But Andrew Richards, the chief executive of Energy Users Association of Australia, which represents gas users such as food processors and brickmakers, said the deal “ignored the elephant in the room, which is price”.
“It seems to further entrench the link between international spot prices and domestic gas prices, which at the moment are trading at up to 600 per cent above the cost of production,” he said.
King said she was “not willing to see any business close” due to gas price pressures, arguing the deal would provide more price certainty for buyers that had been holding out for government price caps.
“We are in an open international market. We made this country face the world in the 1980s and it has been responsible for a great deal of prosperity. The flip side of that is when there is an international price crisis like now, we do get those knock-on effects,” she said.
“I expect manufacturers now to be able to start negotiations that they might have been putting off [due to their] somewhat unfounded expectation that there might have been a very low price cap put on what is an open market and has been for some time.”
Australian Petroleum Production and Exploration Association chief executive Samantha McCulloch said the deal confirmed the LNG producers’ commitment to the domestic market and avoided the government imposing export controls.
“The industry has always been committed to delivering reliable and competitively priced gas supplies to the domestic market,” she said.
The government is still reviewing its power to impose export controls and has left open the prospect of creating a trigger mechanism that could be pulled sooner than every 12 months if the gas companies fail to honour their agreement. Export controls can be imposed under the current Australian Domestic Gas Security Mechanism, whose rules King is updating.
Wentworth MP Allegra Spender said on Wednesday LNG companies had held the Australian market to ransom by refusing to offer gas at a fair price and urged the government to impose price controls.
“The answer isn’t more fossil fuel projects. The government must consider domestic price caps and a super-profits tax,” she tweeted.
andy-mac wrote:DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:WTF does John Howard have to do with any of this?
Albanese and King just signed off on a Heads of agreement which now sees the East coast has price at $80/GJ. With a stroke of their pens they could’ve implemented the exact same Domestic gas reservation model employed by Western Australia which is providing WA with gas at $4.50/ GJ.
That’s trillions of dollars worth of Australian,only being syphoned by foreign multinationals who pay zero tax. China- Australia’s strategic competitor/ threat- is getting 70% of our gas whilst Australians go without.
This isn’t just a direct rape of Australian wealth, the scale of which is almost impossibility to conceive, it’s also an incredible inflationary burden on every Australian commercial and domestic activity. The price of gas dictates the price of electricity for every household, bakery, factory, farm and office. The price of gas dictates the price of fertilisers for agricultural, the cost of food and water supply and everything else.
Manufacturing will cease. Households already struggling with mortgages and cooked wages , will have cost of electricity destroy their ability to survive.
And the, .the icing on the cake of this ALP corruption and ineptitude , is the fact that the government will then borrow billions of dollars to subsidise the cost of electricity which will come out of taxpayer’s pockets and at the expense of our health, welfare and education sectors as well as every other government provided social service.
Fuck the ALP . Fuck Albo. Fuck Madeline King.
Absolute pack of cunts.
And then King will do the Martin Ferguson post-politics stroll into her board positions in the energy industry, which is her reward for arse raping Australia. Big round of applause for Maddy.
And while all this and much, much more unfolds, you get utter clowns such as this bleating their partisan party boosterism rubbish. They need to be thrown in a burning dumpster alongside Albo and King:
GuySmiley wrote:
“I see the usual naysayers, doomsayers, conspiracy theorists and devotees of self flagellation are again out salivating with excitement about how the Labor government has sold out the country all in 4 months.”My take is that Howard set up initial deal where this situation started? You may be correct or not, I don't know whether Albo could have changed the deal with strike of pen? I'm guessing it's a little more complex than that. Probably a lot of ramifications that would stem from such an action. I don't know, but yes it does seem we are being taken for ride.
I wrote in my previous post though that Australia should be taking a serious look at situation such as changing contracts or tax set up as I have in past.
There’s no ifs, buts or maybes…Australia is being rorted, raped and robbed. ALP are overseeing it all. Nothing to do with Howard.
+
Does Mad King even know what she’s done?
By Houses and Holes , Macrobusiness
The MSM is full of celebration today for the triumph of Mad King, basically just reproduced from her press release:
Australians will be paying historically high gas bills for years despite the government striking a deal with major LNG producers to prevent domestic supply shortfalls, with experts warning the early closure of coal-fired power plants would put the stability of the electricity grid at risk.
Resources Minister Madeleine King warned on Thursday that gas prices would not return to pre-Ukraine war levels of less than $10 a gigajoule despite LNG exporters agreeing to provide an extra 157 petajoules for the domestic market in 2023.
With the government facing pressure from the Greens and environmental groups over new fossil fuel projects, Ms King also cast doubt over the future of new gas developments in Australia and backed greater investment in renewables to deliver the nation’s future energy needs.
Announcing a deal with east coast LNG exporters to shore up domestic supply next year, Ms King said the heads of agreement – signed by Australia Pacific LNG, QGC and Gladstone LNG – would ensure “Australians continue to have access to secure and reliable gas”.
“Given the agreement means the projected shortfall will be avoided, I am satisfied I do not need to take steps to activate the Australian Domestic Gas Security Mechanism,” she said.
She added there was no doubt that prices were “very unlikely to return to the low points of like $6 or $8 or even $10”.
“I do expect with the increased supply that there will be downward pressure on prices,” she said.
Well, Mad King, you’re going to be disappointed, and the fact that you say prices are going to fall strongly suggests that you have no idea what you’ve actually done.
The added supply is material and would lower prices if it were definitely going to remain in the east coast market. But there is no reason for it to do so.
As the new ADGSM stands, the cartel only has to offer the gas at LNG netback prices, so it will be offered at LNG netback prices. There is no competition to deliver any price falls.
That price is today at…wait for it…$80Gj (up from today’s $20Gj):
No manufacturer is going to pay that price. They will go under. Electricity producers will have to pay and the NEM will once again be suspended by all kinds of gaming as gentailers try to limit the damage to margins with power prices back to $600, $700 or $800MWh.
At some point, it is going to dawn upon state governments what has just happened and they will move in with subsidies for businesses and households. So, Australia will be borrowing heavily to subsidise the energy bills that fund the energy cartels. Another outrage that has already begun:
“The new Gas Heads of Agreement agreed to by the Federal Government may avoid a shortfall of supply but leaves east coast Australian industry facing back-breaking gas prices for the foreseeable future,” Innes Willox, chief executive of the national employer association, AiGroup, said today.
“The agreement is crushingly disappointing for Australian industry reliant on gas to make the products that Australians need. As they roll off existing gas contracts, Australian manufacturers of bricks, chemicals, plastics, paper, aluminium, steel, fertlisers, cosmetics, gloves and masks will increasingly face crippling energy bills they will have to pass onto consumers.
“The Heads of Agreement seeks to ensure that local prices are no higher than international levels. But there is nothing in it that will see local prices fall below international levels either. In the wake of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the cutoff of Russian energy exports to Europe and Europe’s desperate efforts to secure replacement gas around the world, international gas prices have soared to unprecedented levels. Eastern Australia is completely exposed to those prices. Our wealth of gas production and our long-standing bipartisan national energy policies provide no shield against them whatsoever.
“The ACCC export parity metric recognised in yesterday’s Heads of Agreement currently indicates local spot gas prices of between AUD$60 and AUD$70 per gigajoule over the next year. That would be around 20 times the average price before East Coast exports of Liquefied Natural Gas began, and around 8 times the previously expected export parity range.
“Most gas is bought on longer contracts, not spot, and those prices will be somewhat lower. But even so, we are looking at serious and deeply painful increases in the cost of many basic products, of heating homes in winter, and of much of the firming capacity on which our electricity system currently relies.
“The Government’s ambitions for managing inflation, growing industry and transitioning to clean energy are threatened by these gas price rises.
“The agreement may have sidestepped the gas supply shortages for 2023 foreshadowed by the ACCC. This is welcome. However, more risks open up later this decade, and more action will be needed both on supply and on demand efficiency and substitution to respond.
“High Australian gas prices have now been locked in. As a result, the Government will need to take the kinds of expensive but urgent steps we are seeing in Europe to financially support energy users – to help them weather the storm and reduce their exposure to the costs of gas. That will not be cheap. The costs of inaction will be higher,” Mr Willox said.
I expect that the RBA will also be forced to “look through” the utility bill shock because not doing so will destroy the economy entirely. The inflation spillovers will still be a big problem.
I have no idea what’s going through Mad King’s head, nor the bureaucrats that allowed her to sign this Australian economic death warrant, but the new ADGSM agreement explicitly spells out only that the Evil Gas Cartel has to make the gas available at LNG netback.
And now that Mad King has triumphantly secured Australia’s own gas at prices that nobody can afford through a laborious policy process, the government will be all the more hesitant about revisiting the issue.
In the final irony, there won’t be a gas shortage because demand will collapse with the economy.
Since I've been outed as the Jordies Zombie!!
https://m.
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:andy-mac wrote:DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:WTF does John Howard have to do with any of this?
Albanese and King just signed off on a Heads of agreement which now sees the East coast has price at $80/GJ. With a stroke of their pens they could’ve implemented the exact same Domestic gas reservation model employed by Western Australia which is providing WA with gas at $4.50/ GJ.
That’s trillions of dollars worth of Australian,only being syphoned by foreign multinationals who pay zero tax. China- Australia’s strategic competitor/ threat- is getting 70% of our gas whilst Australians go without.
This isn’t just a direct rape of Australian wealth, the scale of which is almost impossibility to conceive, it’s also an incredible inflationary burden on every Australian commercial and domestic activity. The price of gas dictates the price of electricity for every household, bakery, factory, farm and office. The price of gas dictates the price of fertilisers for agricultural, the cost of food and water supply and everything else.
Manufacturing will cease. Households already struggling with mortgages and cooked wages , will have cost of electricity destroy their ability to survive.
And the, .the icing on the cake of this ALP corruption and ineptitude , is the fact that the government will then borrow billions of dollars to subsidise the cost of electricity which will come out of taxpayer’s pockets and at the expense of our health, welfare and education sectors as well as every other government provided social service.
Fuck the ALP . Fuck Albo. Fuck Madeline King.
Absolute pack of cunts.
And then King will do the Martin Ferguson post-politics stroll into her board positions in the energy industry, which is her reward for arse raping Australia. Big round of applause for Maddy.
And while all this and much, much more unfolds, you get utter clowns such as this bleating their partisan party boosterism rubbish. They need to be thrown in a burning dumpster alongside Albo and King:
GuySmiley wrote:
“I see the usual naysayers, doomsayers, conspiracy theorists and devotees of self flagellation are again out salivating with excitement about how the Labor government has sold out the country all in 4 months.”My take is that Howard set up initial deal where this situation started? You may be correct or not, I don't know whether Albo could have changed the deal with strike of pen? I'm guessing it's a little more complex than that. Probably a lot of ramifications that would stem from such an action. I don't know, but yes it does seem we are being taken for ride.
I wrote in my previous post though that Australia should be taking a serious look at situation such as changing contracts or tax set up as I have in past.There’s no ifs, buts or maybes…Australia is being rorted, raped and robbed. ALP are overseeing it all. Nothing to do with Howard.
Nonsense, if a sovereign government signs agreement, they are bound to it. Howard signed agreement... Yes we are being robbed but has a lot to do with Howard. Darwin Port was another smart idea if Howard govt....
Bullshit. Our government can do whatever it wants. The ALP is too corrupt and spineless to disobey the energy corporations. Nothing to do with Howard. Stop it with the rubbish distractions from culpability.
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:Bullshit. Our government can do whatever it wants. The ALP is too corrupt and spineless to disobey the energy corporations. Nothing to do with Howard. Stop it with the rubbish distractions from culpability.
Yeah maybe they can do whatever they want, but unfortunately they have no influence over the consequences that may occur. It's not as black and white or as simplistic as you make out.
Howard signed agreements as leader of
a sovereign government, so yeah nah there would be consequences. Whether these would be worth risking I have NFI.....
What risks?
Risks to Australia’s reputation as a trading nation ? Lol.
There’s not a nation on Earth which would voluntarily sell out its own national interests to pander to corporations in the manner Australia’s government just did. There’s not a company on Earth which would consider a Dom gas agreement as indicative of Australia as a less secure and appealing investment destination. On the contrary the fact Australia could have the developed world’s cheapest gas and electricity means we would be an incredibly attractive investment destination.
There is no downside for an Australian Dom gas beyond a threat to the individuals who make up the ALP party and the profits of a few tax avoiding foreign owned companies.
The upside to a Dom gas reservation is incalculabley large.
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:What risks?
Risks to Australia’s reputation as a trading nation ? Lol.
There’s not a nation on Earth which would voluntarily sell out its own national interests to pander to corporations in the manner Australia’s government just did. There’s not a company on Earth which would consider a Dom gas agreement as indicative of Australia as a less secure and appealing investment destination. On the contrary the fact Australia could have the developed world’s cheapest gas and electricity means we would be an incredibly attractive investment destination.There is no downside for an Australian Dom gas beyond a threat to the individuals who make up the ALP party and the profits of a few tax avoiding foreign owned companies.
The upside to a Dom gas reservation is incalculabley large.
Ok maybe? I have no idea.... But I reckon there would be consequences other than Australia's reputation.
Don't see how it could be threat to individuals in ALP, reckon if they could nationalise without any negative consequences, it would go down pretty well with electorate and the income would pretty much entrench any govt for years....
Are you saying that members of ALP are doing this for purely personal economic reasons after being in a position of power for less than 6 months? Geez quick operators....!
“There’s not a nation on Earth which would voluntarily sell out its own national interests to pander to corporations in the manner Australia’s government just did. “ ………….so howard pandering to China was ok because …………… The Chinese had got the deal of a lifetime because the consortium of Australia's North West Shelf operators hadn't thought to insert a clause into the contract that would raise the price of gas from what was, in 2002, a historically low level.
As world gas prices rose and rose, the price paid by China for what Howard had called "a gold medal performance" stayed at rock bottom. Australia's gas exports of 3 million tonnes a year from that single agreement were contracted to stay at basement prices until 2031.
https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/how-australia-blew-its-future-gas-supplie...
When this topic comes up there's always an idea thrown about that we get nothing in return for gas sold OS, which just isn't true even when companies dont pay company tax they still pay a shit load in royalties and rents(hence why dont pay company tax), the income paid to government state or federal is said to be about 5 billion a year (not sure if that includes payroll tax), and the oil & gas industries contribution through employment, supporting other industries and facilitating regional growth, was measured by AGIT (Australian Gas Industry Trust) at almost $500 billion a year.
Hence why both LNP and Labor have encouraged foreign investment in the industry.
"encouraged foreign investment"
That's one term for it.
AndyM wrote:"encouraged foreign investment"
That's one term for it.
Yeah that's what governments do, they try to encourage foreign companies to invest thats why they even pay them with subsidies for exploration ect.
Because these companies have the choice of investing anywhere in the world, them investing in the industry here returns billions to the government and the economy rather than to another country who have the same natural resources..
Supafreak wrote:“There’s not a nation on Earth which would voluntarily sell out its own national interests to pander to corporations in the manner Australia’s government just did. “ ………….so howard pandering to China was ok because …………… The Chinese had got the deal of a lifetime because the consortium of Australia's North West Shelf operators hadn't thought to insert a clause into the contract that would raise the price of gas from what was, in 2002, a historically low level.
As world gas prices rose and rose, the price paid by China for what Howard had called "a gold medal performance" stayed at rock bottom. Australia's gas exports of 3 million tonnes a year from that single agreement were contracted to stay at basement prices until 2031.
https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/how-australia-blew-its-future-gas-supplie...
I don’t understand your point Supa. This isn’t a case of ALP vs LNP.
My point is that the ALP should never be given power again. I’ve explained why they are trash. Your bringing up of decades old historical whataboutism only serves to distract from the only message relevant:
Do not ever vote for either major party ….including ALP.
indo-dreaming wrote:AndyM wrote:"encouraged foreign investment"
That's one term for it.
Yeah that's what governments do, they try to encourage foreign companies to invest thats why they even pay them with subsidies for exploration ect.
Because these companies have the choice of investing anywhere in the world, them investing in the industry here returns billions to the government and the economy rather than to another country who have the same natural resources..
Yeah , great point Indo.
These energy companies could’ve instead invested in that other politically and geographically stable developed nation with shit tonnes of natural gas….
Oh, that’s right. No such place fucking exists.
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:Supafreak wrote:“There’s not a nation on Earth which would voluntarily sell out its own national interests to pander to corporations in the manner Australia’s government just did. “ ………….so howard pandering to China was ok because …………… The Chinese had got the deal of a lifetime because the consortium of Australia's North West Shelf operators hadn't thought to insert a clause into the contract that would raise the price of gas from what was, in 2002, a historically low level.
As world gas prices rose and rose, the price paid by China for what Howard had called "a gold medal performance" stayed at rock bottom. Australia's gas exports of 3 million tonnes a year from that single agreement were contracted to stay at basement prices until 2031.
https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/how-australia-blew-its-future-gas-supplie...I don’t understand your point Supa. This isn’t a case of ALP vs LNP.
My point is that the ALP should never be given power again. I’ve explained why they are trash. Your bringing up of decades old historical whataboutism only serves to distract from the only message relevant:
Do not ever vote for either major party ….including ALP.
My point is that it’s been a fuck up from the start and both parties have contributed. Nobody has ever stepped up to the plate and done a deal that was securing Australia and it’s citizens future for years to come . If Norway can do it why haven’t we ?
Ah, but we doth but complain about such trifles, when those men and women of great standing and insight in the corridors of power of the exeptionals, have almost achieved the huge geopolitical goal over a decade in the making?
In that far off land of splendor, the celebratory cigars are lit and, crisp new gas contracts - at wonderful prices - have been inked.
With the recent nails in the coffin of nordstrom 2 pipeline as the final exclamation mark, European industry and peoples are now closer than ever before from to being free of the frivolous benefits of cheap energy from the tainted east. The empire remains strong. Many nations of the world must embrace the joys of inflation as it flows forth from such momentous events in all its goodness..
It is our great honour to see our vassal leaders set forth to visit the distant land where they are gifted the holy clean white Y fronts to give thanks:
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:Supafreak wrote:“There’s not a nation on Earth which would voluntarily sell out its own national interests to pander to corporations in the manner Australia’s government just did. “ ………….so howard pandering to China was ok because …………… The Chinese had got the deal of a lifetime because the consortium of Australia's North West Shelf operators hadn't thought to insert a clause into the contract that would raise the price of gas from what was, in 2002, a historically low level.
As world gas prices rose and rose, the price paid by China for what Howard had called "a gold medal performance" stayed at rock bottom. Australia's gas exports of 3 million tonnes a year from that single agreement were contracted to stay at basement prices until 2031.
https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/how-australia-blew-its-future-gas-supplie...I don’t understand your point Supa. This isn’t a case of ALP vs LNP.
My point is that the ALP should never be given power again. I’ve explained why they are trash. Your bringing up of decades old historical whataboutism only serves to distract from the only message relevant:
Do not ever vote for either major party ….including ALP.
With our preferential voting system, this is kind of impossible. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yes as Supa mentioned, I agree it is a tragic situation that we never set up a system to protect our resources such as Norway has. But hey they are socialist!!!!
We were a social democracy once too.
I don’t remember anyone getting a vote to cripple the system into dysfunction and hand the country over to the whims of corporations.
https://www.swellnet.com/forums/wax/546503?page=1#comment-855338
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:We were a social democracy once too.
I don’t remember anyone getting a vote to cripple the system into dysfunction and hand the country over to the whims of corporations.
https://www.swellnet.com/forums/wax/546503?page=1#comment-855338
' cause Gough was tough til he hit the rough,
Uncle Sam and John were quite enough'
Oils.......
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:AndyM wrote:"encouraged foreign investment"
That's one term for it.
Yeah that's what governments do, they try to encourage foreign companies to invest thats why they even pay them with subsidies for exploration ect.
Because these companies have the choice of investing anywhere in the world, them investing in the industry here returns billions to the government and the economy rather than to another country who have the same natural resources..
Yeah , great point Indo.
These energy companies could’ve instead invested in that other politically and geographically stable developed nation with shit tonnes of natural gas….
Oh, that’s right. No such place fucking exists.
According to this there is 50 countries with greater reservers and 3 other countries with the same amount, yes almost all these countries are not developed nations many with issues, which can be a negative but can also be a positive for getting a good price especially through corruption or just low cost of doing business with less hassle jumping through hoops and red tape, so id assume for these companies there is pros and cons they weigh up against many different factors..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_proven_re...
Redgum
"And there's Lear jets over Kulgera
Where the dust dances in the heat
Sing a song for the poor young little rich country
As they buy it from under our feet
And LTDs in Hawker
And talk of a tracking base
Talking mineral yields in uranium fields
And looking like they own the place"
Australia is a lucky country run mainly by second rate people who share its luck. It lives on other people's ideas, and, although its ordinary people are adaptable, most of its leaders (in all fields) so lack curiosity about the events that surround them that they are often taken by surprise.
Author: Donald Horne
Publication date: 1964
indo-dreaming wrote:DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:AndyM wrote:"encouraged foreign investment"
That's one term for it.
Yeah that's what governments do, they try to encourage foreign companies to invest thats why they even pay them with subsidies for exploration ect.
Because these companies have the choice of investing anywhere in the world, them investing in the industry here returns billions to the government and the economy rather than to another country who have the same natural resources..
Yeah , great point Indo.
These energy companies could’ve instead invested in that other politically and geographically stable developed nation with shit tonnes of natural gas….
Oh, that’s right. No such place fucking exists.
According to this there is 50 countries with greater reservers and 3 other countries with the same amount, yes almost all these countries are not developed nations many with issues, which can be a negative but can also be a positive for getting a good price especially through corruption or just low cost of doing business with less hassle jumping through hoops and red tape, so id assume for these companies there is pros and cons they weigh up against many different factors..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_proven_re...
That’s your argument?
My cronyism is better than their cronyism. We’ve got tax free trusts and shell companies to rival nigeria. Sing it
DSDS is spot on on this one
https://m.
No mention of the actual price we will be paying…….“This agreement will ensure Australians continue to have access to secure and reliable gas,” King said. “The new supply commitments, and [agreement], will deliver gas to the domestic market when needed, and ensures future uncontracted gas will be offered to the domestic market first, on competitive and reasonable terms, before it is offered for export.” …………For that uncontracted gas, “the principle” would be that domestic gas customers will not pay more than international customers for the gas, the government said……….still not crystal clear what we will be paying yet but no doubt we will find out soon enough . https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/sep/29/australian-govern.... https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/put-us-first-industry-union-slam.... https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/sep/30/labors-deal-with-.... But industry and consumer groups said prices being offered were as high as $70/GJ. At that price, everything from groceries to electricity bills will continue to climb, they said.
“Getting sufficient volumes of Australian sourced gas to supply the Australian market should never be a question we need to answer,” the chief executive of the Energy Users’ Association of Australia (EUAA), Andrew Richards, said. “[It] seems we will have plenty of gas, it’s just a pity that nobody will be able to afford it.” “Gas producers have got to recognise that they have a role to play in meeting the national interest and not working against it,” the industry minister, Ed Husic, told ABC’s RN Breakfast on Friday.
“There is definitely room there to supply at prices for an Australian resource that meets the needs of Australian manufacturers and households,” he said.
Great rock'n'roll swindle.
indo-dreaming wrote:When this topic comes up there's always an idea thrown about that we get nothing in return for gas sold OS, which just isn't true even when companies dont pay company tax they still pay a shit load in royalties and rents(hence why dont pay company tax), the income paid to government state or federal is said to be about 5 billion a year (not sure if that includes payroll tax), and the oil & gas industries contribution through employment, supporting other industries and facilitating regional growth, was measured by AGIT (Australian Gas Industry Trust) at almost $500 billion a year.
Hence why both LNP and Labor have encouraged foreign investment in the industry.
ID, if the gas companies were paying heaps of royalties then everyone would be a lot happier, but the problem is, they pay sweet FA.
https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/two-thirds-of-wa-gas-given-away-v...
Labour would have the support of the people if it implemented a new resource tax on gas now. If they don’t do anything then I’d agree with DSDSs sentiments, i.e there is corruption involved.
Was this such a bad idea 12 years ago ? Mining of coal , gas and iron ore are all making record profits. https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/rudd-downplays-resources-tax-showdow....
Supafreak wrote:Was this such a bad idea 12 years ago ? Mining of coal , gas and iron ore are all making record profits. https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/rudd-downplays-resources-tax-showdow....
Was a great idea, was sabotaged by the usual suspects in the mining, fossil fuels industry, Murdoch and other msm outlets and Abbott getting the support to bark his bullshit from the above. Remember billionaires Twiggy and Gina putting on working clothes standing on the back of utes telling the Australian people it would destroy the economy.
Well
https://m.
Distracted wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:When this topic comes up there's always an idea thrown about that we get nothing in return for gas sold OS, which just isn't true even when companies dont pay company tax they still pay a shit load in royalties and rents(hence why dont pay company tax), the income paid to government state or federal is said to be about 5 billion a year (not sure if that includes payroll tax), and the oil & gas industries contribution through employment, supporting other industries and facilitating regional growth, was measured by AGIT (Australian Gas Industry Trust) at almost $500 billion a year.
Hence why both LNP and Labor have encouraged foreign investment in the industry.
ID, if the gas companies were paying heaps of royalties then everyone would be a lot happier, but the problem is, they pay sweet FA.
https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/two-thirds-of-wa-gas-given-away-v...Labour would have the support of the people if it implemented a new resource tax on gas now. If they don’t do anything then I’d agree with DSDSs sentiments, i.e there is corruption involved.
All governments try to get as much revenue as they can from these companies the idea they dont is just silly they want money the more they get the more they can spend and of course they want the other benefits of employment and other aspects that flow on, the thing is it's a balancing act between keeping investment and encouraging further investment or discouraging investment.
Yeah sure simple minds just think let's tax them as high as we can and it's a vote winner especially for Labor or Green voters, as every answer to any question to them is a tax.
But its not a smart move in the long term, all you do is encourage these companies to look for ways to save paying taxes and you discourage investment instead of encouraging investment and in the long run we all lose out as companies go okay well long term we can get a much better deal elsewhere, thats the reality of a global market.
As for everyone being happy, many people would never be happy no matter how much tax or other payments these companies paid, sadly there is people who just enjoy whinging who crave feeling hard done by and even worse now we have grifters on social media who play on these peoples naivety and stoke their discontent.
indo-dreaming wrote:Distracted wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:When this topic comes up there's always an idea thrown about that we get nothing in return for gas sold OS, which just isn't true even when companies dont pay company tax they still pay a shit load in royalties and rents(hence why dont pay company tax), the income paid to government state or federal is said to be about 5 billion a year (not sure if that includes payroll tax), and the oil & gas industries contribution through employment, supporting other industries and facilitating regional growth, was measured by AGIT (Australian Gas Industry Trust) at almost $500 billion a year.
Hence why both LNP and Labor have encouraged foreign investment in the industry.
ID, if the gas companies were paying heaps of royalties then everyone would be a lot happier, but the problem is, they pay sweet FA.
https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/two-thirds-of-wa-gas-given-away-v...Labour would have the support of the people if it implemented a new resource tax on gas now. If they don’t do anything then I’d agree with DSDSs sentiments, i.e there is corruption involved.
All governments try to get as much revenue as they can from these companies the idea they dont is just silly they want money the more they get the more they can spend and of course they want the other benefits of employment and other aspects that flow on, the thing is it's a balancing act between keeping investment and encouraging further investment or discouraging investment.
Yeah sure simple minds just think let's tax them as high as we can and it's a vote winner especially for Labor or Green voters, as every answer to any question to them is a tax.
But its not a smart move in the long term, all you do is encourage these companies to look for ways to save paying taxes and you discourage investment instead of encouraging investment and in the long run we all lose out as companies go okay well long term we can get a much better deal elsewhere, thats the reality of a global market.
As for everyone being happy, many people would never be happy no matter how much tax these companies paid, sadly there is people who just enjoy whinging who crave feeling hard done by.
Yeah rightio, corruption is all good and giving away our resources for a pittance is fine. If you're not ok with that you must be a whinging Green or Labor voter, or Jordies Zombie....
Fark Jesus wept ....
If a company stands to make 100 billion profit over 10 years then gets told it’s going to be taxed 40% of its profit so will only make 60 billion, do you think they would pull out of the operation ?
Supafreak wrote:If a company stands to make 100 billion profit over 10 years then gets told it’s going to be taxed 40% of its profit so will only make 60 billion, do you think they would pull out of the operation ?
Yep they would pull out of operations immediately like what happened in Qatar and Norway!
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrRexPatrick/status/1516172792181395456
Super profits in mining in general are not common and can be fleeting during spikes in certain commodity prices. Life of mines can be short and the good periods have to pay for all the exploration, development and post mining rehabilitation. A one size fits all approach to high tax or royalty payments, based on best case scenarios / unusual global situations and applicable through busts as well as booms would be very harmful. The lean times for many miners can last years and even decades. Without the prospect of decent "winning" periods and profit & dividend returns, most shareholders (from retail to super funds) would not bother investing in them.
@frog , what have been the lean times for mining in the last 20 years ? Yes certain minerals have dropped in price and mines closed but Gorgon life is expected to be a minimum of 50 years . I do understand what you’re saying though.
Supafreak wrote:If a company stands to make 100 billion profit over 10 years then gets told it’s going to be taxed 40% of its profit so will only make 60 billion, do you think they would pull out of the operation ?
There would be so many factors involved that they would weigh up like the life of the mine and how much the mine is set to produce in future years etc, but yeah 100% it would be seen as a huge negative and could affect future plans for current and future mining operations in the country.
It's a global market investment goes where the most money is to be made, you encourage investment with subsides and discourage investment with things like taxes, rents, royalties.
Obviously you need to find a balance between the two where both parties are happy, but end of the day its generally based on the global market you compete in.
Life of the mine was something frog mentioned , looking at whaleback ( bhp newman ) going now for 60 plus years plus there are satellite ore bodies surrounding it and Australian taxpayers funded the original railway from newman to hedland . Area C has hills of iron ore that haven’t even been touched yet and on today’s volumes they would last 200+ years . Gorgon as mentioned before 50+ years . Other countries manage to get a far better deal from their resources than Australia, my question is WHY ?
Supafreak wrote:@frog , what have been the lean times for mining in the last 20 years ? Yes certain minerals have dropped in price and mines closed but Gorgon life is expected to be a minimum of 50 years . I do understand what you’re saying though.
I am talking mining generally. Twiggy might have made megabucks but across the sector it is highly variable. Super profits that can be sustained are just occasional rare events.
Most explorers just lose and lose hoping for a major discovery. Even BHP blows it on some big projects.
If you ever invested in mining stocks or watched commodity prices you would never think of it overall as an easy or certain or particularly profitable sector. It is tough with some big winners now and then that create the headlines.
Even Twiggy and FMG in the early days was seen as a highly risky and uncertain bet for years. Lots of clever people sold FMG for under 50 cents per share and lower way back cause they did not expect it to survive. Now it is over $16.
Lots of commodities have had long periods of low prices over the past 20 years. So many times prices spike up and everyone says a new super cycle in a particular commodity or class of commodities is about to occur. People pile in to relevant explorers and miners. More often than not something comes in to upset the apple cart within a year or two (economic down turn, competition from closed mines opening back up to catch the higher prices, substitution of other products etc.). The good times rarely seem to last long with a few exceptions.
So by the time a super profits tax hits often the super profits will be gone. Or, investors will just give up and go elsewhere. And, as the sector just sucks up capital like a sponge to keep rolling it would then struggle big time.
Again, a one size fits all super profit tax is just unfair and counterproductive.
Supafreak wrote:If a company stands to make 100 billion profit over 10 years then gets told it’s going to be taxed 40% of its profit so will only make 60 billion, do you think they would pull out of the operation ?
The short answer is no, especially during good times (which there were plenty of). They should be taxed good, no questions asked. And even if they some wanted to leave let them leave.
I’m not so sure about super profits being rare events. I was working on various BHP sites in 2006 -2016 and in 2007/08 the price on the spot market was $180 with a production cost at the time of $20 per tonne. The big 3 for australia , coal , iron ore and gas have had a pretty good return the last 20 odd years with gas only coming on stronger than ever recently. There was a slow period for iron ore and rio & bhp were just making a small margin after cost but that period didn’t last long . Twiggy’s investors that made a fortune, were the ones that bought in early before the shares were split.
They’re not going to pull out of the existing operation if you start taxing them a bit more. Sure, it might impact lower return on capital on future projects but a good, flexible and agile government can surely work out a nice balance. And if they need help there are plenty of experts who can do it for them. The key is to be agile and ready for a market response so you can manage the cycles properly. Nothing needs to stay forever.
Looking back at this chart in USD , there’s a lot of super profit years going back to 2007 https://www.statista.com/statistics/282830/iron-ore-prices-since-2003/. This link mentions production cost and other things. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/030215/how-iron-ore-mark... …….My previous post about price and cost was from memory in AUD
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