The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 9:00am

.... I've followed this forum since day dot and not once has Indo Dreaming ...."

Andrew Bolt 18c?
Adam Goodes?
Uluru Statement?

@info has stridently led the charge on these topics and more ....... its the decade long theme here and show us once where he considered or looked at an alternative to his position that you are now asking others to do!

"....dismissing people as racist only drives further societal division ..."

True

"There's been a lot of misunderstanding on Swellnet over the years and we've copped shit for harbouring racists, and to be honest I'm getting a bit fed up with it....".

I see SN forums as a Wild West, pretty much anything goes, that Covid forum topic, FFS, should have been shut down weeks or months before the blow up, or is that cancelling culture?

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 10:22am
stunet wrote:
AlfredWallace wrote:

Soggydog, Great reply. The worrying thing is, he’s breeding. I know from all of my encounters with people who dislike aboriginal people...

I really don't wish to get involved, however I've followed this forum since day dot and not once has Indo Dreaming proclaimed, or even inferred, "dislike for Aboriginal people". What he's done, and at times painstakingly, if a touch clumsily, is forward a solution that runs counter to the popular, long-term model.

You probably don't mean it, but dismissing people as racist only drives further societal division. Sure, some people are racist, but I see no evidence of it here.

I don't wish to get involved so I hold my tongue around forums like this, however I think it pays if everyone stopped the kneejerk reactions and just tried to see what the other person's point of view is before painting them as someone despicable.

For instance, after forty years of failure, is there benefit in trying a different method, perhaps one incorporating 'tough love' where Aboriginal people must strive rather than rely on govt handouts or humbugging? Could that foster success and pride..?

I believe that's part of what Indo has been saying.

On the flipside, is the notion of 'forty years of failure' incorrect and improvements are incremental, meaning symbolic acts (such as the Apology and the coming Uluru Statement) are worthwhile as they slowly chip away at the inequality? I mean, we have two great civilizations and it takes a while for them to align.

There's been a lot of misunderstanding on Swellnet over the years and we've copped shit for harbouring racists, and to be honest I'm getting a bit fed up with it. There are points of view, philosophies to get your head around, and just because someone doesn't share the same belief as yourself doesn't mean they wish ill of the Aboriginal community.

Yes of course i don't hate or dislike ingenious people at all, it is a bit annoying to have people say things like that.

The problem is if i reply to the comments like that it will just get in a pointless back and forth, but at the same time others who havent been following the thread might assume it's true.

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sypkan Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 10:22am

I intended to stay out of this for a while... but...

"I see SN forums as a Wild West, pretty much anything goes, that Covid forum topic, FFS, should have been shut down weeks or months before the blow up, or is that cancelling culture?"

are you fucking serious?!!!

after all the misinformation that has now been exposed... through a process of extraction of teeth... from good sources from 'the (old) left' of politics no less...

mr proclivity is next level!

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 10:28am

@ Guy

I havent started any of those threads, but yes i have commented on them as i have commented on many other threads and yes my comments often go against more popular narratives and yes I'm vocal at times because i get frustrated with people like you, whom cant be critical of people or cultures if they are of colour or even say criticise a religion like Islam, for you it's all off limits and a certain narrative has to be followed, while if its white people or culture you can be as critical as can be hence your obsession with bagging out Christians and Christianity in the religion thread, thats why i find you kind of fake.

But hey each to their own, people having differing views often from polar opposites is just life

Personally i think Swellnet are in a hard position on what to allow and what not too the Covid thread was the best example, if they shut it down many would be saying they are fascist and censoring things too much, while others want it shut down thinking it's spreading misinformation.

Personally i think it was the right call to let it go, and as you know im coming from a position of being pro vax even had my booster shot and got the flue jab the other week for the first time.

That said i think people had a right to question all kinds of aspects of Covid from lockdowns to vax mandates and of course the source of covid and even the vaccines themselves.

BTW. It should noted especially with the Covid thread the people wanting it shutdown were actually the ones commenting five times a day actually fuelling opposing replies.

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AlfredWallace Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 10:51am

Stu. I dont know you, ive always read and enjoyed your brief comments. I’ve been part of the Swellnet readership for a long time and always will be.
But, I’m shocked by your statement and you’ve really surprised me with your response on this occasion. For every aboriginal person in Australia who receives some form of welfare whether they are in a remote community or living a suburban or urban life , there are just as many or more non-Aboriginal people receiving handouts on a grand scale. I’d suggest you may need to reassess as to why so many aboriginal people are in this predicament, I’d assumed someone as intelligent as you appear would have a much greater understanding of the machinations that have lead to their ciorcumstances. Just my opinion.

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AlfredWallace Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 11:07am

Indo. If you claim you are not racist. Why is it that you are not reporting or writing about the same themes you keep pedalling about violence and handouts for any other community in Australia. Simple answer, Aboriginal matters are just so much easier and more melodramatic and incite derision. We are an amalgam of a lot of the worlds countries and better off for having their contributions to our society. Can you imagine if we still had a nation riding on the back of the ‘White Australia Policy’ an archaic horrible vestige of the past.

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stunet Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 11:10am

Well, no offence, but your opinion is patronising.

I think I read widely on the topic, believe I take in most viewpoints, even have a neighbour and friend who's one of the Stolen Generation, and none of what I wrote would be surprising to them.

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AlfredWallace Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 11:17am
stunet wrote:

Well, no offence, but your opinion is patronising.

I think I read widely on the topic, believe I take in most viewpoints, even have a neighbour and friend who's one of the Stolen Generation, and none of what I wrote would be surprising to them.

No offence taken Stu. As i stated, just my opinion.
Besides, how would you think your notion of a ‘tough love’ policy to all social security recipients that are non-aboriginal across Australia would be received? There would be uproar.

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stunet Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 11:22am
AlfredWallace wrote:

Besides, how would you think your notion of a ‘tough love’ policy to all social security recipients that are non-aboriginal across Australia would be received? There would be uproar.

One example would be putting everyone, irrespective of heritage or birthplace, on similar payment plans. Not really sure why non-Aboriginals would be in uproar.

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AndyM Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 12:23pm

"Sure, some people are racist, but I see no evidence of it here."

Genuinely surprised you came to this conclusion Stu.
One of the basic premises that got me going was the idea that the closer Indigenous Australians are to their culture, the more violent and disfunctional their communities are.
And inversely, the more I.A. are "assimilated" in cities etc, the better off they are.

As far as I understand it, this is very close to the textbook definition of racism.

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GuySmiley Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 1:05pm

This "tough love" notion @stu, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you serious? FFS how much more tough love do the ATSI communities deserve?

Can I also politely dispel this notion of just because you know someone, or have a mate or neighbour or best man old friend who happens to be Aboriginal it makes you any more an expert on the topic than a rock (not saying you have suggested this @stu) but people who have worked in the field for years are equally clueless apart from starting with genuine consultation, respect and a genuine desire to see people self determine their futures This is an intergenerational issue looking back and forwards and there are no easy one size fits all simplistic solutions.

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Fliplid Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 2:16pm

I read Chris Sarras book a few years ago and he seems to have developed a fairly good program to help the situation and I'd recommend anyone interested in this topic to give it a read.

His idea basically was to ensure kids developed self respect and confidence and to be accountable for their actions. Importantly though, and this is key, he expected the educators to have belief in the kids they were teaching and to put in a genuine and concerted effort into their task. If not, they were out the door

There needs to be a change in expectations so if a treaty helps, all well and good, however at a more basic level, giving kids a good start should be the main focus. Obviously as well, doing everything possible to eliminate poverty and addictions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Sarra#Cherbourg_State_School

https://research.acer.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1310&context=re...

A good story about what happens when kids are given a chance to reach their potential from Cherbourg where Chris Sarra was the principal

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-08/selwyn-cobbo-state-of-origin-quee...

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stunet Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 2:28pm
GuySmiley wrote:

This "tough love" notion @stu, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you serious?

I'll answer this in good faith even though it's my turn to be 'genuinely surprised' that someone who purports to liase with Indigenuous communities doesn't know what I'm talking about.

There's a fairly wide belief that welfare is a double-edged sword so that, while it helps disadvantaged Indigenuous communities get by, and can lay the foundation for advancement, it can also inhibit their progress towards, for want of a better term, upward mobility. To wit: Why strive when you can receive? (Yeah, it's a whitefella problem too, but WGAF about colour? We're all humans with the same psychological drive and proclivities)

As in my spitballing above: I don't know which way is right or wrong, but I get very dispirited when people who claim to be for the cause won't consider other solutions - even when suggested hypothetically - without resorting to racist epithets.

I understand there's a great many people who'd like Aboriginal culture to soak in formaldehyde and remain frozen in time forever - speaking metaphorically of course. Yet like it or not, Aboriginal folk - individually and whole communities - have to find a way to plug into the Capitalist system if they are to succeed.

The crunch, of course, is that it's at odds with their traditional way of life hence we arrive at the intersection of two great civilisations and the challenge of how to mesh them together. I'm not sure we can count the progress so far as a success, therefore I think, as in all significant negotiations, all options should be on the table.

Also Guy, don't take me for a fool. Of course your notion was directed at me. You can repeat your experience ad nauseam, but if one other person dares share theirs...

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AlfredWallace Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 2:34pm

AndyM & GuySmiley. Good summations. I’m going to wind up my contribution to this discussion because it just keeps feeding Indo’s appetite for trash. Its not a ‘waving the surrender flag’ moment but I clearly have formed a view that very little is or has changed with regards to an understanding of the plight of Aboriginal people, despite what our poorly elected governments tell us that its improving, because it is not.
You only have to look at the recent incident involving Rio Tinto when it blew up a 46,000 year old cave in Juukan Gorge in the Pilbara where remains of human hair with a genetic link to humans dating 5000 years was found to understand nothing has changed.
Imagine if some well known religious icon, church statue etc. or some globally renowned architectural feature was destroyed deliberately or that enormous statue overlooking Rio de Janeiro was wrongfully destroyed, the world would be up in arms. We have a long, long, long way to go as a so called ‘progressive’ nation.

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GuySmiley Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 3:12pm

stu, to your first point, I'm familiar with the argument and to the extent a community reach the decision themselves good on them. My only point here is let the community genuinely decide these things and yes sometimes a community might need gentle (and genuine) support (and resources and time) to get to that point of being able to make a decision. if its imposed it will fail, 200 years of history tells us so.

Your 2nd point. In so far as I didn't want your story about your neighbour to add any additional weight to an often quoted justification for being supposedly qualified to comment here by a regular correspondent it was directed at you. Yes unfair in the circumstances as you have occasionally related good yarns of your and his families interactions and all our lives would be the richer for them.

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GuySmiley Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 3:54pm

Alfred, why not just have a break and come back down the track, too many have left already for similar reasons or have been banned for cracking it big time in frustration.

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 5:01pm

Kind of pointless replying to individual comment's here.

But i will make some things clear again on my thoughts.

Reality is Indigenous people in remote and even regional areas, need employment, education and all the other services other Australians benefit from, without this the gap will never close and the cycle of issues will continue.

I dont have the answers to how to solve this, but have made some suggestions that might help in a small way, on things like mining operations having to employee and train locals where possible (local being anyone living in 1,000km or 5,000km or whatever of a mine site) or a program where Indigenous people are given the opportunity to be financially supported to move to somewhere where these services exists.

Yeah the problem is it takes them away from country and even family, but at least they should have the option available to them.

In regards to the focus on violence, the hard reality is it's one of if not the biggest problem that faces indigenous people at least in remote areas hence why some communities have even banned alcohol, it's not the actually alcohol itself thats the issue it's the violence that comes as a result from the alcohol, violence is also a huge reason to why indigenous people have such high incarceration rates compared to the rest of the population.

In regard to what part culture plays a part, well if you think it doesn't play a role then hey you're free to believe that, but I'm going to go with all the evidence that shows it plays some part.

Does that mean every aspect of indigenous culture is a negative, OF COURSE NOT, just like any culture there is positive aspects and negative aspects, the aim should be to preserve the good parts and do away with the negative aspects, but i guess if you dont believe there is negative aspects then yeah that might be problematic.

Anyway if some people want to think I'm racist or whatever because of these views then well obviously it's not ideal nobody wants to be labeled a racist, but end of the day it doesn't mater what some guy i dont know online thinks, whats more important is how those that really know me feel especially people of colour, and generally speaking i tend to bond better with people of colour and people of other cultures than white folk, I'm not sure why i think its because my mother lived in Africa and Fiji and was the kid that was frowned done on because she made friends with all the locals so i was brought up with a very multicultural view of the world, even if i wasn't a surfer and hadn't fallen in love with Indo then an Indonesian lady, id still highly likely hook up with someone from another culture and most likely of colour, who knows it might have even been an indigenous Australian lady.

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AlfredWallace Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 6:29pm
GuySmiley wrote:

Alfred, why not just have a break and come back down the track, too many have left already for similar reasons or have been banned for cracking it big time in frustration.

GuySmiley.Immersed myself in water, feel reinvigorated , couldn’t leave you two to carry on the stoush with the ‘head in the sand’ or ‘nothing to see here people, move right along’ folks. Yeah, I’m back, but so is that remora. He must have never got his way as a little kiddie, must have been the runt of the litter. Sure making up for it now with the 100% ‘look & listen to me’ at all times. I laugh, he’s just reminding us for the 100th time that he’s expressing his view again, oh, in case we didn’t understand it the first time. Totally comical. If you dont share our views. Why do you keep responding ?You’d have to be the ‘Zealot of the Century’.

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GuySmiley Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 7:12pm

Take a good break off mate and come nice and fresh, cheers

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adam12 Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 7:34pm

A whitefella who admits he has no answers but is freely pointing out his version of what the problem with blackfellas is, i.e. their culture, is fucken straight up racist in my opinion.
I don't give a fuck how you frame it, or how many "people of colour" you befriend.

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AlfredWallace Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 8:22pm
adam12 wrote:

A whitefella who admits he has no answers but is freely pointing out his version of what the problem with blackfellas is, i.e. their culture, is fucken straight up racist in my opinion.
I don't give a fuck how you frame it, or how many "people of colour" you befriend.

Tick, my friend. They just look through (their own) rose coloured glasses.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 8:03am
adam12 wrote:

A whitefella who admits he has no answers but is freely pointing out his version of what the problem with blackfellas is, i.e. their culture, is fucken straight up racist in my opinion.
I don't give a fuck how you frame it, or how many "people of colour" you befriend.

Sorry once again it's not just my opinion it's the opinion of all kinds of people including some Indigenous leaders, there has even been books written on the topic. (written by people who have worked with indigenous people and like myself have absolutely no ill will towards indigenous people)

To believe there is absolutely no culture element is pure ignorance Payback in the form of violence still happens today in some areas and even even Promised brides still happen in some communities, i even provided an article on page 31 where a NT ¬Supreme Court judge that deals with incidents of violence everyday highlighted the cultural links, your basically calling all these people racist.

The debate should be more about to what degree culture is a factor and what degree other aspects are a factor, and then of course things like alcohol and lack of purpose/direction/employment are just like throwing petrol on a fire.

To be honest id love to give this thread a rest as it's all been said, Iike i said before if you want me to shut up because the things i say are too confronting for you, don't reply to my comments, because just calling me names won't work, it's more likely to trigger a reply from me.

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goofyfoot Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 9:01am

Groundhog Day

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Cockee Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 9:24am

Great movie, shit topic.

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Paul McD Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 6:30pm
stunet wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:

This "tough love" notion @stu, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you serious?

I understand there's a great many people who'd like Aboriginal culture to soak in formaldehyde and remain frozen in time forever - speaking metaphorically of course. Yet like it or not, Aboriginal folk - individually and whole communities - have to find a way to plug into the Capitalist system if they are to succeed.

The crunch, of course, is that it's at odds with their traditional way of life hence we arrive at the intersection of two great civilisations and the challenge of how to mesh them together. I'm not sure we can count the progress so far as a success, therefore I think, as in all significant negotiations, all options should be on the table.
.

I think this actually hits on the real uneasy part of this discussion. Culture.
My original post was aimed at rethinking the perspective from a white fella and the framework of our current society, 200 plus years post settlement.
Something i note in Indo's posts is the continual need in his eyes, for Indigenous culture to be abandoned so as to move into the more successful and prosperous whitefella culture.
But who says this culture is the correct one? And how can we, as the invader (historically speaking) proclaim our culture is the superior one on stolen land and force assimilation to those it was stolen from. Morally, shouldn't it be the other way around? Should we not be the ones embracing Indigenous culture and offering our own culture, but not forcing it?
This was the reason i wrote this. How do we go about merging two cultures and allowing ourselves to question our very own culture and if it is indeed the right way to live, on someone elses land.
And one last thought. I hear that statement, 'close the gap' and i find that the most intolerable and degrading catchphrase of the lot. When the system is set up with the foundations in colonialism, what gap is there to close except to force assimilation or be damned??
Lastly, why do Indigenous Australians have to find ways to 'plug into the capitalist system' when it was introduced to this country from a foreign entity in the first place.
There is surely middle ground here, but in my opinion, which may be wrong, but it has always seemed to me it's all one way traffic and hence, therein lies all the current problems we have.

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AlfredWallace Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 7:34pm
Paul McD wrote:
stunet wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:

This "tough love" notion @stu, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you serious?

I understand there's a great many people who'd like Aboriginal culture to soak in formaldehyde and remain frozen in time forever - speaking metaphorically of course. Yet like it or not, Aboriginal folk - individually and whole communities - have to find a way to plug into the Capitalist system if they are to succeed.

The crunch, of course, is that it's at odds with their traditional way of life hence we arrive at the intersection of two great civilisations and the challenge of how to mesh them together. I'm not sure we can count the progress so far as a success, therefore I think, as in all significant negotiations, all options should be on the table.
.

I think this actually hits on the real uneasy part of this discussion. Culture.
My original post was aimed at rethinking the perspective from a white fella and the framework of our current society, 200 plus years post settlement.
Something i note in Indo's posts is the continual need in his eyes, for Indigenous culture to be abandoned so as to move into the more successful and prosperous whitefella culture.
But who says this culture is the correct one? And how can we, as the invader (historically speaking) proclaim our culture is the superior one on stolen land and force assimilation to those it was stolen from. Morally, shouldn't it be the other way around? Should we not be the ones embracing Indigenous culture and offering our own culture, but not forcing it?
This was the reason i wrote this. How do we go about merging two cultures and allowing ourselves to question our very own culture and if it is indeed the right way to live, on someone elses land.
And one last thought. I hear that statement, 'close the gap' and i find that the most intolerable and degrading catchphrase of the lot. When the system is set up with the foundations in colonialism, what gap is there to close except to force assimilation or be damned??
Lastly, why do Indigenous Australians have to find ways to 'plug into the capitalist system' when it was introduced to this country from a foreign entity in the first place.
There is surely middle ground here, but in my opinion, which may be wrong, but it has always seemed to me it's all one way traffic and hence, therein lies all the current problems we have.

PaulMcD. Hi.mate. It’s a slow grind with this lot. I was flabbergasted by Stu’s comment suggesting that indigenous Australians need to plug in to our so called successful ‘capitalistic system’ yeah, look how well thats done. Half of Australia are filthy rich, the other half incredibly poor, cost of houses, cost of living, basically most families by Friday of each working week need $2K on the kitchen bench to cover all expenses, most don’t even earn anywhere near half that, so its real GREAT.
And to Mr. Cut & Paster, yes, you know who you are. If you’ve ever worked, lived, travelled through N.T. you’d think you were in a Western cowboy movie. Cops look like and behave like cowboys and you reckon those judges in court aren’t racist, give me break. Years ago i was filling up with fuel at a well know roadhouse in N.T., at the pump, two coppers had just finished abusing the fuck out of 3 male aborigines who drove off, one cop turned to me and said ‘they are a fucking chore everyday of the week’ . i said nothing and it just reinforced what i already new, most white people in that state do not like aboriginal people. They kick them, beat them and treat them with scant regard. I suggest many of our readers take a safe holiday in your camper and open your eyes to what’s really going on.

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stunet Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 7:47pm
AlfredWallace wrote:

I was flabbergasted by Stu’s comment suggesting that indigenous Australians need to plug in to our so called successful ‘capitalistic system’ .

AlfredWallace wrote:

Years ago i was filling up with fuel at a well known roadhouse in N.T.

What did you use to pay for your petrol?

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GuySmiley Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 8:20pm

Great thought provoking questions Paul, as a frequent visitor to NZ I see the mutual respect of western and Maori cultures you allude to. Perhaps I’m over cooking my tourist experience but NZ’s embracing of their indigenous culture seems decades ahead of AU .... perhaps with the new Labor govt ??

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AlfredWallace Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 8:30pm

Stu. Cabbage leaves. What a silly question . Another reminder of disparaging behaviour. In 1984 halfway between Geraldton and Kalbarri, all traffic stopped for bitumen works, about a 20 min wait, usual road crew also including 3 or 4 aboriginal lads working away, whilst in the long line of traffic in very hot conditions , the profanities and insulting remarks coming out of the windows directed towards the aboriginal lads was beyond disgusting. I played football in southern WA a year or so before, many a time against teams where the entire team were Aboriginal lads, always great fun and fucking good at their craft, how they even played was beyond me, the despicable language from over the fence was bordering on cruelty.
And you wonder why they don’t want any part of our system Stu, they’ve been ridiculed from day dot, nothing has changed at all. No one here can convince me otherwise.

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stunet Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 8:34pm
AlfredWallace wrote:

And you wonder why they don’t want any part of our system Stu, they’ve been ridiculed from day dot, nothing has changed at all. No one here can convince me otherwise.

Mate, stop for a moment. You're a whitefella saying every blackfella rejects the current economic system.

Could you be any more arrogant?

EDIT: I regret ever piping up in this thread. Done. The Sanctimony Train can roll on without me.

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oxrox Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 8:39pm
AlfredWallace wrote:

Stu. Cabbage leaves. What a silly question . Another reminder of disparaging behaviour. In 1984 halfway between Geraldton and Kalbarri, all traffic stopped for bitumen works, about a 20 min wait, usual road crew also including 3 or 4 aboriginal lads working away, whilst in the long line of traffic in very hot conditions , the profanities and insulting remarks coming out of the windows directed towards the aboriginal lads was beyond disgusting. I played football in southern WA a year or so before, many a time against teams where the entire team were Aboriginal lads, always great fun and fucking good at their craft, how they even played was beyond me, the despicable language from over the fence was bordering on cruelty.
And you wonder why they don’t want any part of our system Stu, they’ve been ridiculed from day dot, nothing has changed at all. No one here can convince me otherwise.

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oxrox Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 8:50pm

1984?????? ???????????

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sypkan Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 9:40pm
stunet wrote:
AlfredWallace wrote:

I was flabbergasted by Stu’s comment suggesting that indigenous Australians need to plug in to our so called successful ‘capitalistic system’ .

AlfredWallace wrote:

Years ago i was filling up with fuel at a well known roadhouse in N.T.

What did you use to pay for your petrol?

exactly!

whilst I'd argue most commenters on here are hardly defenders of the capitalist system...

the endless conga line of cultural cringers / system deteactors on here - probably now for over 8 years or more - have fundamentally failed to offer any alternatives...

anything at all!

aside from vague claims 90 % of australians (non indigenous) should/need to adopt an aboriginal culture and system... they have nothing...

when asked how they might see this system / blend of systems manifest... they have nothing...

when asked to define 'structural racism'... they have nothing...

what are the rest of australia to think?

how can we put trust in such ill formed idealism as a way forward?

are we to adopt the blm gender bending anti nuclear family utopian model?

(doesn't sound very fitting with aboriginal culture for to me... and that's just the beginning!)

are we to adopt the 'defund the police' model?

(anyone been noticing the fall out of this supposed new 'summer of love' scale little revolution?)

I am not pro 'right wing' by any stretch of the imagination... but unless the contemporary 'left' get their shit together, with real alternatives more developed than juvenile cries to tear the the whole thing down... well, they'll just continue to be recievers of ridicule, and not much else...

sad times...

seriously... viable ideas and alternatives ...please!!!

anything!

anything at all!!

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sypkan Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 9:30pm
oxrox wrote:

1984?????? ???????????

exactly exactly!!!

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sypkan Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 9:32pm

I got stories from 1984 too!

i decided they were probably best not shared

not helpful...

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Paul McD Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 10:01pm
oxrox's picture
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oxrox Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 10:06pm

Some of you need to watch tonight's episode of 7.30 report for some perspective.
Mind you, after reading that we are talking about the 1980's, I can understand some of the viewpoints here. But I'm living in 2022. Massive difference.

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oxrox Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 10:08pm

Probably won't though. It's too positive for some here.

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Paul McD Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 10:20pm

Just in case you didn't read it @sypkan....here's an excerpt.
A 2019 Australian Electoral Commission ballot found more than 60 per cent of local residents supported the facility.

"However, the eligibility criteria for the local government electoral roll meant that Native Title holders were excluded from the ballot.

“After successfully winning Native Title after 21 years of fighting for our Country, we were then excluded from the community ballot,” Mr Bilney said.

“The government has continued to treat us unfairly, including not undertaking heritage assessments with us and abandoning the commitment to ‘broad community support’ at the last minute.”
Does that help to clarify for you what could be classified as systemic/structural racism? Dated 2019 for those that think things are moving forward for the better.

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oxrox Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 10:36pm
Paul McD wrote:

Just in case you didn't read it @sypkan....here's an excerpt.
A 2019 Australian Electoral Commission ballot found more than 60 per cent of local residents supported the facility.

"However, the eligibility criteria for the local government electoral roll meant that Native Title holders were excluded from the ballot.

“After successfully winning Native Title after 21 years of fighting for our Country, we were then excluded from the community ballot,” Mr Bilney said.

“The government has continued to treat us unfairly, including not undertaking heritage assessments with us and abandoning the commitment to ‘broad community support’ at the last minute.”
Does that help to clarify for you what could be classified as systemic/structural racism? Dated 2019 for those that think things are moving forward for the better.

I would argue that things have moved on for the better. Not that long ago it would have just happened. Now, they have the opportunity to present their case to the federal court. I'm sure most Australians would be outraged if they weren't successful in their appeal.

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Paul McD Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 10:43pm
oxrox wrote:
Paul McD wrote:

Just in case you didn't read it @sypkan....here's an excerpt.
A 2019 Australian Electoral Commission ballot found more than 60 per cent of local residents supported the facility.

"However, the eligibility criteria for the local government electoral roll meant that Native Title holders were excluded from the ballot.

“After successfully winning Native Title after 21 years of fighting for our Country, we were then excluded from the community ballot,” Mr Bilney said.

“The government has continued to treat us unfairly, including not undertaking heritage assessments with us and abandoning the commitment to ‘broad community support’ at the last minute.”
Does that help to clarify for you what could be classified as systemic/structural racism? Dated 2019 for those that think things are moving forward for the better.

I would argue that things have moved on for the better. Not that long ago it would have just happened. Now, they have the opportunity to present their case to the federal court. I'm sure most Australians would be outraged if they weren't successful in their appeal.

Yeah i hope so @oxrox.
Here's the latest on the case. It will be a good first test for the Albanese government who i'd assume could hold sway on whether it goes ahead or not. . Regardless it doesn't change the fact, the local Indigenous population were banned from taking part in a community ballot to vote yes or no on the project. A fair snapshot of structural racism in this country??
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-06/napandee-nuclear-waste-storage-fa...

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sypkan Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 11:15pm
Paul McD wrote:

'structural/systemic' racism. Exhibit A.
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2021/12/22/sa-traditional-owners-lau....

well, I was referring to the 'structural racism' phrase banded about extensively for 12 months or more - with no explanation - around the blm 'revolution'...

and around incarceration / deaths in custody / poor outcomes more widely that are often talked of on here...

you wanna define that for me?

having said that, the nuclear waste site there would be a bit of a disaster from my point of view, however, that article, and the fairly typical style of journalism it exhibits, raises more questions than it answers...

for example -

"..A 2019 Australian Electoral Commission ballot found more than 60 per cent of local residents supported the facility.

However, the eligibility criteria for the local government electoral roll meant that Native Title holders were excluded from the ballot..."

a little explaining here would of minimum requirement from a real journalist..

how exactly were they excluded?

unfairly ommitted?

are they not on the AEC roll?

or, is it becsuse their residential addresses are not in that area?

a pretty vague emotive statement

anyway, it's going to court...

"“We're going to fight this all the way.”

The Federal Court is expected to list the case early next year."

hopefully it gets rejected

has there been a conclusion?

Paul McD's picture
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Paul McD Thursday, 9 Jun 2022 at 11:26pm
sypkan wrote:
Paul McD wrote:

'structural/systemic' racism. Exhibit A.
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2021/12/22/sa-traditional-owners-lau....

well, I was referring to the 'structural racism' phrase banded about extensively for 12 months or more - with no explanation - around the blm 'revolution'...

and around incarceration / deaths in custody / poor outcomes more widely that are often talked of on here...

you wanna define that for me?

having said that, the nuclear waste site there would be a bit of a disaster from my point of view, however, that article, and the fairly typical style of journalism it exhibits, raises more questions than it answers...

for example -

"..A 2019 Australian Electoral Commission ballot found more than 60 per cent of local residents supported the facility.

However, the eligibility criteria for the local government electoral roll meant that Native Title holders were excluded from the ballot..."

a little explaining here would of minimum requirement from a real journalist..

how exactly were they excluded?

unfairly ommitted?

are they not on the AEC roll?

or, is it becsuse their residential addresses are not in that area?

a pretty vague emotive statement

anyway, it's going to court...

"“We're going to fight this all the way.”

The Federal Court is expected to list the case early next year."

hopefully it gets rejected

has there been a conclusion?

Yes i do agree with you there @sypkan.
I was wondering the same.
I'm sure it's out there somewhere but i took a fair knock to the head yesterday with the ocean floor in the surf and have a splitting headache so gonna sign out. Will suss out tomorrow if i can find out a little more about how they decided on who was eligible for the ballot but i'm guessing it has something to do with native title holders excluded due to conflict of interest...which would also be b.s. But that's just an assumption so will see what else i can find.

sypkan's picture
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sypkan Friday, 10 Jun 2022 at 12:06am

I imagine it is because of this...

"or, is it becsuse their residential addresses are not in that area?"

but that doesn't sound as outraging as this...

"However, the eligibility criteria for the local government electoral roll meant that Native Title holders were excluded from the ballot."

anyway, even if it's because they are not residents, clearly they should be consulted if they are the owners of that actual land being used, but even this is a bit vague...

it will be an interesting test for the new labor government

it's amazing how long this can has been kicked around the state, it's probably a good 12 years or more since the billa kalina land owners were fighting this very same fight, from memory...

even an NT site was proposed for a while

seems nearly no one wants radioactive waste in their backyard... who would have thought?

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AlfredWallace Friday, 10 Jun 2022 at 7:30am

Shall we start on the next no consultation or communication with TIWI folk regarding Santos big grab for gas at the top of N.T.
As I said yesterday, it’ll never change.
A bit of cringe news. Wife works with large groups of Aboriginal folk. Last year on a project a company was offering to a fair number of them several pallets with hundreds of Pepsi Max boxes within, subtle bribery. Obviously one of these nuff nuffs saw a few drinking the shit. If Aboriginal people haven’t already got enough rampant diabetes in their populations, this is the kind of childish crap that is thrust upon them. You wonder why I come across negative all the time. This shit just goes on ad nauseam.
On some of her projects corporations with budgets in the hundreds of millions, spend 1 or 2 mill on ecology, botany, zoology etc, and to the people whose land it belongs then offer the local aboriginal group $70,000 and even then they still try and pay as little as possible. So basically these corporations value the aforementioned fraternities more than they value people. . What the fuck is wrong with human beings ?

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Paul McD Friday, 10 Jun 2022 at 8:05am
AlfredWallace wrote:

Shall we start on the next no consultation or communication with TIWI folk regarding Santos big grab for gas at the top of N.T.
As I said yesterday, it’ll never change.
A bit of cringe news. Wife works with large groups of Aboriginal folk. Last year on a project a company was offering to a fair number of them several pallets with hundreds of Pepsi Max boxes within, subtle bribery. Obviously one of these nuff nuffs saw a few drinking the shit. If Aboriginal people haven’t already got enough rampant diabetes in their populations, this is the kind of childish crap that is thrust upon them. You wonder why I come across negative all the time. This shit just goes on ad nauseam.
On some of her projects corporations with budgets in the hundreds of millions, spend 1 or 2 mill on ecology, botany, zoology etc, and to the people whose land it belongs then offer the local aboriginal group $70,000 and even then they still try and pay as little as possible. So basically these corporations value the aforementioned fraternities more than they value people. . What the fuck is wrong with human beings ?

I don't think you come across negatively @alfredwallace. Just that you have your eyes open and have seen more than maybe alot of commenters on here have of the realities of what's actually going on in Black and White Australia. There is a clear distinction once you get away from the urban white coastal lifestyle.

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Paul McD Friday, 10 Jun 2022 at 8:17am
GuySmiley wrote:

Great thought provoking questions Paul, as a frequent visitor to NZ I see the mutual respect of western and Maori cultures you allude to. Perhaps I’m over cooking my tourist experience but NZ’s embracing of their indigenous culture seems decades ahead of AU .... perhaps with the new Labor govt ??

Yep, NZ is a great example of how a better relationship and coexistence can occur GS. Definitely some things to think about in that respect. I wonder what the key difference is in the two approaches of Australia vs that of NZs over the years.

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Island Bay Friday, 10 Jun 2022 at 8:48am

That's very possibly about to change, guys. Our govt is proposing vast changes to governance which will vest massive powers in unelected iwi (tribal) leaders, i.e. putting an end to democracy as we know it.

This is not going to go well.

Island Bay's picture
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Island Bay Friday, 10 Jun 2022 at 9:01am

Re the above post: Unelected leaders of 13% of the population would have veto rights over decisions concerning 100% of the population.

AlfredWallace's picture
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AlfredWallace Friday, 10 Jun 2022 at 9:33am
Paul McD wrote:
AlfredWallace wrote:

Shall we start on the next no consultation or communication with TIWI folk regarding Santos big grab for gas at the top of N.T.
As I said yesterday, it’ll never change.
A bit of cringe news. Wife works with large groups of Aboriginal folk. Last year on a project a company was offering to a fair number of them several pallets with hundreds of Pepsi Max boxes within, subtle bribery. Obviously one of these nuff nuffs saw a few drinking the shit. If Aboriginal people haven’t already got enough rampant diabetes in their populations, this is the kind of childish crap that is thrust upon them. You wonder why I come across negative all the time. This shit just goes on ad nauseam.
On some of her projects corporations with budgets in the hundreds of millions, spend 1 or 2 mill on ecology, botany, zoology etc, and to the people whose land it belongs then offer the local aboriginal group $70,000 and even then they still try and pay as little as possible. So basically these corporations value the aforementioned fraternities more than they value people. . What the fuck is wrong with human beings ?

I don't think you come across negatively @alfredwallace. Just that you have your eyes open and have seen more than maybe alot of commenters on here have of the realities of what's actually going on in Black and White Australia. There is a clear distinction once you get away from the urban white coastal lifestyle.

Hi PaulMcD. How is your head ? Yes, very true comment, i use to say once you get away from any coast or on the east coast, behind the Dividing Range, circumstances for Aboriginal people change dramatically.
Look at the recent fuck up with the return of the Mungo remains to the Willandra Lakes system at Lake Mungo. Some tosser at NSW Parks Service coupled with Sussan Ley, the then Federal Environment minister politician just made up their own mind, contrary to what the traditional owners wanted, and just organised the reburial of the remains. The TO’s had been negotiating with the past governments for 40 years to have the remains returned to country in the manner they wanted. Imagine if this happened on the fringes of Sydney or Melbourne, there would be uproar, similarly what if Ned Kelly’s remains for example or any other short time period icon were fucked with, equally their would be uproar. Why cant we be happy to have a culture thats the oldest on the planet.
It infuriates me when i hear people commenting about how they love travelling to Europe or similar because its so much more cultured than Australia, everything is so old, its amazing. What, all 2000 years of existence. Give me a spell. Our nation still looks through British and European eyeballs, particularly when it comes to the management of our land (still treated like a country park or estate) and its original inhabitants. A present day snapshot shows we are doing terrible on both fronts.