The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 8:06am
AlfredWallace wrote:

Indo you fail to identify that all the problems that you keep eluding to in Aboriginal communities are no different to those same problems that exist in non-aboriginal communities like yours and mine. For the life of me WHAT IS YOUR POINT with all this rabbiting on. Again i look deep into it all your scribes and its clearly evident you have a HUGE problem with aboriginal people. Do you just keep writing in the desperate hope that someone will eventually agree with you ? Give if it away mate, its extremely boring and tiresome. Have you had a personal experience with Aboriginal people thats scarred you for life or are you not telling us something, you appear extremely intimidated by them, otherwise you wouldn’t keep writing this crap.
Hope you and your Indonesian wife and children are happy. What colour are your offspring ?

Dude I shared an article relevant to the latest conversation, a conversation that you seemed to have missed because, yes while these issues are found in all communities worldwide including general Australian community they are found at very different rates for example

"Indigenous women have a 34 to 95 times higher chance of hospitalisation and 9 to 17 times higher homicide rate than non indigenous women."

If you're not interested in the conversation or my comments then fine ignore them and comment on other aspects that interest you.

Or how about commenting on the article i posted? instead of your personal attacks and misguided personal judgement, as I've said before i have no issues at all with indigenous people my best mate has an indigenous background, ive posted articles from Aboriginal people here that i have deep respect for.

But yeah I'm interested in the elephant in the room and why people ignore the elephant in the room, and I'm happy to point at the elephant in the room and say there it is.

And it's not an elephant that i can just see there has even been books written on the subject with all kinds of evidence for high levels of pre colonisation violence, and these are by people who have lived and worked in indigenous communities.

"Liberating Aboriginal People from Violence Paperback by
Stephanie Jarrett"

or

"Bad Dreaming: Aboriginal Men's Violence Against Women And Children
by Louis Nowra"

Even Peter Sutton one of the most respected anthropologist has talked about high levels of violence before colonisation

And there has been many articles and even studies relevant to the topic, but yeah it is becoming more and more of a taboo topic as these days we paint indigenous culture as something magical and pure and better than other cultures which is nonsense, no culture is magical and pure all have positive aspects and negative aspects and none are better than others, just different.

Anyway these two article's point out many relevant aspects to the conversation.

https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/bennelong-papers/2013/05/a-blacked-out-p...

https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/bennelong-papers/2013/05/the-long-bloody...

Maybe the most interesting being physical evidence in bones

"Violence levels are evidenced for thousands of years into pre-history.

Paleopathologist Stephen Webb in 1995 published his analysis of 4500 individuals’ bones from mainland Australia going back 50,000 years. (Priceless bone collections at the time were being officially handed over to Aboriginal communities for re-burial, which stopped follow-up studies).[15] Webb found highly disproportionate rates of injuries and fractures to women’s skulls, with the injuries suggesting deliberate attack and often attacks from behind, perhaps in domestic squabbles. In the tropics, for example, female head-injury frequency was about 20-33%, versus 6.5-26% for males.

The most extreme results were on the south coast, from Swanport and Adelaide, with female cranial trauma rates as high as 40-44% — two to four times the rate of male cranial trauma. In desert and south coast areas, 5-6% of female skulls had three separate head injuries, and 11-12% had two injuries.

Web could not rule out women-on-women attacks but thought them less probable. The high rate of injuries to female heads was the reverse of results from studies of other peoples.[16] His findings, according to anthropologist Peter Sutton, confirm that serious armed assaults were common in Australia over thousands of years prior to conquest. [17]"

Anyway again if you dont want to engage in this aspect of the conversation then fine, move along or talk about aspects that you dont find so confronting, but im not really interested in comments that judge me personally and paint me in a negative light because you dont agree with things i post, basically if you are going to play, play the ball and not the man.

BTW. It's irrelevant what colour my kids skin colour is, this isn't about skin colour, but the fact you think it is show where your head is at.

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AlfredWallace Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 10:18am

Indo. I’m going to play both pal. In particular you, for your ill informed tripe you keep writing about Australia’s first people. You failed to answer my previous question What is your point ? If you cant answer the question it clearly highlights your complete lack of intelligence and that your entire motive is to call out statistics to undermine Aboriginal people whom you obviously have a problem with. If you didn’t have a problem with them, you wouldn’t write this shit. You are painting a great picture of yourself as a ‘tool’ and a ‘fool’. If you are so correct on everything as evident in all other posts across all other topics on Swellnet , who the hell is your target audience for all this crap ? People don’t spend hours, days, weeks a year, compiling all this information without some kind of motive. You’ve obviously got underlying personal issues.

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indo-dreaming Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 12:17pm

Whatever, it's a public forum where discussion's on all kinds of things happens, you're entitled to your opinion and i and others are entitled to our's, if you have an issue with people having views that differ from yours, well that's your problem.

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adam12 Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 12:42pm

" discussion's"
from his resurch
he's a expert

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GuySmiley Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 5:02pm

Those arguing mobs should leave their country forget the written commonwealth law dealing with land rights steaming from Mabo where continual use or occupation of country MUST be proven. Once forced off their land by colonialists or pastoralists and only “allowed” back after the ‘67 referendum mobs aren’t going anywhere. Leave country and mobs give a nod to the terra nullius lie.

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soggydog Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 6:16pm
GuySmiley wrote:

Those arguing mobs should leave their country forget the written commonwealth law dealing with land rights steaming from Mabo where continual use or occupation of country MUST be proven. Once forced off their land by colonialists or pastoralists and only “allowed” back after the ‘67 referendum mobs aren’t going anywhere. Leave country and mobs give a nod to the terra nullius lie.

I’m not going to get into it with Indo as he just re-affirms that things like the Uluru statement of the heart are probably more for racist shit cunts like himself than they are for aboriginal people.
I’ve worked on land access for BHP with archeologists and Traditional owner groups through the Pilbara, and even after that experience I would never make broad sweeping statements about understanding like some others on here because they lived indigenous adjacent for a time in the Pilbara.
Discussing this thread with my wife the other night, who works on a mine site in the Pilbara and has done for a number of years she mentioned that she had recently had a discussion with one of the aboriginal tradies on sight about how he felt about aboriginal affairs. He said that he had one main issue, and that was that he, as an aboriginal man wished most Australians ( and thier racist Indonesian wife’s) would acknowledge that it never was Terra Nullius, they where here first and they where forcibly subjugated by an invading force.
Another nice thing would probably be not having scummy racist shit cunts like Indo racing around public forums engaging in a bit of recreational vilification for kicks and the odd little endorphin hit. Maybe take up jogging instead.

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AlfredWallace Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 6:45pm

Soggydog. Finally someone with accuracy and clarity and no personal agenda. What a breath of fresh air. Now we are getting somewhere.
Very sound paragraph mate, well done.

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sypkan Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 7:44pm

"...He said that he had one main issue, and that was that he, as an aboriginal man wished most Australians ( and thier racist Indonesian wife’s) would acknowledge that it never was Terra Nullius, they where here first and they where forcibly subjugated by an invading force...."

with respect...

but Im pretty sure racist shit cunt indo wouldn't argue anything different...

I literally don't know of anyone at all that possibly would

this 'narrative' really needs to move on from 1990's ideas...

seriously

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sypkan Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 7:50pm

1970's arguments actually...

60's?

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soggydog Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 8:14pm

Well considering the gentleman in question was aboriginal and the year is 2022, maybe it’s just as relevant now as it was in the 60’s. “But hey whitey, tell us how it really is.”

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GuySmiley Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 8:19pm
sypkan wrote:

1970's arguments actually...

60's?

Whoop whoop so what decade or century does @info’s theorising sit Shep?

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indo-dreaming Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 8:46pm
GuySmiley wrote:
sypkan wrote:

1970's arguments actually...

60's?

Whoop whoop so what decade or century does @info’s theorising sit Shep?

Firstly it's not my theorising i just agree with others, but the articles, books and thoughts from others don't date back further than 15 years most much more recent.

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sypkan Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 9:33pm

no doubt it is relevant... but just because someone belives that's the beast they're fighting doesn't make it so...

ffs, look at the majority of posters on here, they're all flogging the same dead horse....iit's understandable, if that is what is getting all the attentiom, as I said the other day, abc keeps rattling on about the same old shit, like as if the majority of australians are unaware of our dark past

it's common knowledge, everyone knows the blackfellas got fucked over, everyone knows they were taken off their lands and made dependent on the state, everyone knows of the stolen generation

the interpretation of these events may differ, there may be huge ignorance re. the ins and outs of cattle theft and stuff bluediamond was on about the other day etc. ..but MOST australians are well aware of it, and can guess the to and fro's that developed as a result of it...

yeh, the massacres are under reported, yeh the nitty gritty horsemen and their twisted 'games' they played may be totally unknown... but MOST australians accept this twisted shit no doubt happened...

the questions are what to do about it?

ffs again, I doubt even tony abbott would argue terra nullias wasn't a gross (convenient) misconception. clearly the land wasn't empty, he may play with semantics so he doesn't back himself in a corner... but anyone who argues, in this day and age, that australia was empty and wasn't taken over by some pretty extreme means would be regarded as a fruit loop

once again, the debate is what to do about it?

'terra nullias' has been desperately grasped (and never let go) by a certain cohort as a means to get what they see as 'right' in going forward by some pretty complicated legal arguments

I don't necessarily disagree with them, but I do believe it has become a bit of a pipedream, and has failed to move with the political zietghiest, and has (possibly needs) to overlook everything else to get their ultimate outcome...

I would argue this approach has kind of left much of the indigenous population ill equipped for the modern world, as globalisation and mass migration has fundamentally change the face and make up of australia, as basically the whole world adopted an open border elitist outlook to develop and facilitate each countries' modern trajectories and 'needs', in an ever more competitive dog eat dog model - neoliberalism basically...

the 'elite' indigenous population have done ok out of all this, as have much of the non indigenous population... but those left behind, have now been left way way behind, with all the social problems that comes with that...

throw in other 'developments' like meth. etc., and various other things that plague the whole the world... and the outcomes for lower income societies has been disastrous

this thinking has not been totally wayward or negative, australia has done a remarkable job in preserving and restoring indigenous culture - coming off a disastrous low, wayward colonisation base - but it has kind of left large parts of the indigenous population without the basic means to compete in an ever more competitive globalised world... as highly educated migrants etc. move in taking up various opportunites, pushing other (native - black, white, and brown) populations further and further behind...

like the other 'problems' pointed to above, they are not unique to indigenous people... but they are harder hitting, due to the 'racism' of australia's past...

just my thoughts on the issue... and from what I can gather, many aboriginal people have tempered their expectations re. taking their country back, from what was 80's, 90's model of what seemed an 'inevitability'...

there's still your hard nuts that will never concede what was 'never conceded' ... good on em ...all power to them!

but it would appear this thinking, and the work of various advocates holding on to this model, will overlook all sorts of nastiness that has developed, as 'wicked problems' have only gotten worse, far far worse over the last three decades or so...

and now, is at the point, where change, or some new reaction is desperately required...

look at those disturbing stats. ...you think aboriginal women and children can endure another decade or two of an out of control spiral whilst we wait for some ultimate goal that may never come to fruition?

they shouldn't need to endure another week!

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soggydog Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 9:41pm

I agree with everything in your post Sypkan. Especially the last couple of sentences.
The only reason I rail so hard against Indo is because I don’t think that sort of ignorant vilification helps aboriginal people or Australians as a whole.

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GuySmiley Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 9:43pm

hey Shep, here’s something novel something new why not ask, listen and actually do what our indigenous nations ask. After 200 years deciding what’s best for Aboriginals that starling new approach might just work!

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adam12 Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 9:52pm

Sypkan "australia has done a remarkable job in preserving and restoring indigenous culture "

Like the Juukan gorge caves.

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sypkan Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 10:09pm
GuySmiley wrote:

hey Shep, here’s something novel something new why not ask, listen and actually do what our indigenous nations ask. After 200 years deciding what’s best for Aboriginals that starling new approach might just work!

I am

seems your 'listening' is way too focussed...

(much like your wider political viewpoint)

did you see linda burney address peter dutton the other day?

seems to be on a way different trajectory to your baby boomer leftist nuttery

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sypkan Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 10:22pm
adam12 wrote:

Sypkan "australia has done a remarkable job in preserving and restoring indigenous culture "

Like the Juukan gorge caves.

an absolute disaster... heartbreaking...

what struck me most about this, is how most australians thought it an absolute disastrous shame - on so many levels

but then it passed ever so quickly with not much more than a fleeting collective sigh...

such is the nature of modern mining, industry, science, etc... where all the boxes are ticked by high paid consultants - then shit just seems to power on by whatever means...

environmental officers, cultural consultants, and various other buzzy titles... are the box ticking sham that is modern business in australia...

french ceo fall guy - calculation made - problem addressed - business as usual...

you can hardly blame wider australia for that

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adam12 Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 10:59pm

"but then it passed ever so quickly with not much more than a fleeting collective sigh..."
Totally
"you can hardly blame wider australia for that"
Yeah, I do.
Imagine the French peoples response if Rio had, with govt. approval, blown up Lascaux.
There would be another revolution, heads lopped.
The Juukans were 30,000 years older.
Aussies just went "Meh"
Boils my blood.

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GuySmiley Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 11:13pm

Sypkan

My views on this topic don't come from any political ideology but rather from working full-time with Aboriginal communities throughout Victoria and at national forums. Four years that ended with me hiring an Yorta Yorta elder (RIP) to replace me to co-ordinate community health and child care programs throughout the State (as part of a national program to hire 50+ Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff in "community" contact roles). This program was just one of the many national initiatives that stemmed from the Deaths in Custody Royal Commission which my team and the State Office of a Federal Govt Dept needed to respond to.

This isn't some sort of intellectual exercise for me, I can still hear the words of the elders, self determination, respect, genuine consultation that will be acted on fully and in good faith by govt is a non-negotiable first step we must all take. If you want to fail just repeat the mistakes of the past you said above I think, true, let's stop thinking we know best; imposed and simplistic interventions will fail and create more harm. Five years ago we were gifted the Uluru Statement from the Heart and as a nation we need to embrace it and we will all the more richer for it.

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sypkan Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 11:31pm
adam12 wrote:

"but then it passed ever so quickly with not much more than a fleeting collective sigh..."
Totally
"you can hardly blame wider australia for that"
Yeah, I do.
Imagine the French peoples response if Rio had, with govt. approval, blown up Lascaux.
There would be another revolution, heads lopped.
The Juukans were 30,000 years older.
Aussies just went "Meh"
Boils my blood.

yeh, I share your pain

but apathy is our thing... and the french...

I blame the impotence of our leaders

and at risk of sounding like a one trick pony with a bee up his bum... the decades long conditioning of neoliberalism...

and the culture that has developed as result of box ticking sham consultants mentioned above

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sypkan Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 11:47pm
GuySmiley wrote:

Sypkan

My views on this topic don't come from any political ideology but rather from working full-time with Aboriginal communities throughout Victoria and at national forums. Four years that ended with me hiring an Yorta Yorta elder (RIP) to replace me to co-ordinate community health and child care programs throughout the State (as part of a national program to hire 50+ Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff in "community" contact roles). This program was just one of the many national initiatives that stemmed from the Deaths in Custody Royal Commission which my team and the State Office of a Federal Govt Dept needed to respond to.

This isn't some sort of intellectual exercise for me, I can still hear the words of the elders, self determination, respect, genuine consultation that will be acted on fully and in good faith by govt is a non-negotiable first step we must all take. If you want to fail just repeat the mistakes of the past you said above I think, true, let's stop thinking we know best; imposed and simplistic interventions will fail and create more harm. Five years ago we were gifted the Uluru Statement from the Heart and as a nation we need to embrace it and we will all the more richer for it.

with respect guysmiley (and I mean that, I respect what you have done) but you clearly come from a particular viewpoint - a victorian urban one, and all that that entails...

you had much to do with remote communities?

you don't think the community consultation and self empowerment thing you describe has been in place for a while now?

(I know, it has shortcomings, huge ones... not least trust... but how long can we wait?)

you ever had much to do with meth.?

'wicked problems' have gotten a whole lot wickeder

there is no time to wait

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sypkan Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 12:06am

Im not advocating simple interventions, however...

"they shouldn't need to endure another week!"

but iin a weird twist of irony... or reverse racism... or something so twisted I cannot put my finger on it...

if these women and kids were white, they would not have to endure it for another week!!

something is fundamentally wrong

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 8:04am
GuySmiley wrote:

Sypkan

My views on this topic don't come from any political ideology but rather from working full-time with Aboriginal communities throughout Victoria and at national forums. Four years that ended with me hiring an Yorta Yorta elder (RIP) to replace me to co-ordinate community health and child care programs throughout the State (as part of a national program to hire 50+ Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff in "community" contact roles). This program was just one of the many national initiatives that stemmed from the Deaths in Custody Royal Commission which my team and the State Office of a Federal Govt Dept needed to respond to.

This isn't some sort of intellectual exercise for me, I can still hear the words of the elders, self determination, respect, genuine consultation that will be acted on fully and in good faith by govt is a non-negotiable first step we must all take. If you want to fail just repeat the mistakes of the past you said above I think, true, let's stop thinking we know best; imposed and simplistic interventions will fail and create more harm. Five years ago we were gifted the Uluru Statement from the Heart and as a nation we need to embrace it and we will all the more richer for it.

This is a great example on why things never gets better and only get worse, the mind boggles to think this goose has worked in this area, narrow minded fake people with fake solutions instead of open minded real people with real solutions.

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GuySmiley Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 8:53am

No sypkan in my time I worked / consulted very closely with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders from all over the country it was the same message everywhere - so rather than assume something I may or may not have done why not ask first? Why don’t we as a nation ask communities for the solutions but only do so if we are truly prepared to listen and act on what they say ....

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oxrox Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 10:47am
GuySmiley wrote:

No sypkan in my time I worked / consulted very closely with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders from all over the country it was the same message everywhere - so rather than assume something I may or may not have done why not ask first? Why don’t we as a nation ask communities for the solutions but only do so if we are truly prepared to listen and act on what they say ....

Your last sentence is precisely what I said a few pages ago when Indo put up some articles from Price, Dillon and Mundine. Their viewpoint was immediately rejected by a lot of people here because it's not what they want to hear.
We have to listen to all viewpoints from Indigenous people to hopefully come to a solution because nothing has worked. These people are Indigenous and would know a lot more than us about what the problems are and what the potential solution could be. Listen to all sides. Let's not waste this opportunity for change by being tunnel visioned.

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sypkan Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 10:53am

"- so rather than assume something I may or may not have done why not ask first? "

errrrr, that's exactly what I did... ask...

there is no such thing as 'remote' in victoria, and that is why I asked...

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sypkan Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 10:58am
oxrox wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:

No sypkan in my time I worked / consulted very closely with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders from all over the country it was the same message everywhere - so rather than assume something I may or may not have done why not ask first? Why don’t we as a nation ask communities for the solutions but only do so if we are truly prepared to listen and act on what they say ....

Your last sentence is precisely what I said a few pages ago when Indo put up some articles from Price, Dillon and Mundine. Their viewpoint was immediately rejected by a lot of people here because it's not what they want to hear.
We have to listen to all viewpoints from Indigenous people to hopefully come to a solution because nothing has worked. These people are Indigenous and would know a lot more than us about what the problems are and what the potential solution could be. Listen to all sides. Let's not waste this opportunity for change by being tunnel visioned.

yep, the cats that make it to guysmiley's little committees (whereever they're from) bring a certain viewpoint - full of assumptions and ideas about what's what...

that's why they are there

breaking the echo chamber seems to be half the battle from what i see

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GuySmiley Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 11:56am

“Little committees”
“Echo chambers”

Really?

At the risk of repeating myself it’s always about self determination, letting each community decide for themselves via genuine consultation and that is why what Price etc say isn’t the answer, it’s more of the same. Her and other’s ideas might have merit but unless it comes from the community it’s doomed to fail.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 12:14pm
GuySmiley wrote:

“Little committees”
“Echo chambers”

Really?

At the risk of repeating myself it’s always about self determination, letting each community decide for themselves via genuine consultation and that is why what Price etc say isn’t the answer, it’s more of the same. Her and other’s ideas might have merit but unless it comes from the community it’s doomed to fail.

Many remote communities already have extremely high levels of self determination to the point that you cant enter without a permit, some you cant even enter.

Has it helped these communities?

We'll ironically they are often the areas with the greatest problems.

oxrox's picture
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oxrox Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 12:24pm
GuySmiley wrote:

“Little committees”
“Echo chambers”

Really?

At the risk of repeating myself it’s always about self determination, letting each community decide for themselves via genuine consultation and that is why what Price etc say isn’t the answer, it’s more of the same. Her and other’s ideas might have merit but unless it comes from the community it’s doomed to fail.

Yeah well if we are going to referendum on this I'm going to listen to them all. You may think it's doomed to fail but I will sit back and listen to all of the views put across by the people who are affected. Are you saying Price etc don't have links to communities?
I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong but if you're not willing to sit back and listen to all sides objectively, I would suggest that would be doomed to failure as any open minded person would.

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GuySmiley Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 1:05pm

Oxrox, whether Price has any community links / backing or not (I understand she and others championed here don’t) is besides the point the one size fits all imposed from the outside simplistic approach she/they present is precisely the repeated error of the past. Each community is different and while they would all share commonalities each should be given the right/respect to decide their own future. Pretty basic/simple really.

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sypkan Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 1:08pm

excuse my ignorance guysmiley, but are modern indigenous communities across australia made up of a broad range of views and experiences - just like the rest of the world?

or are they just chock full of dogmatic leftists - who share exactly the same views and experiences?

if it is the latter... then please please tell me why the guru of all things indigenous - marcia langton - is happy to share a stage with jacinta price?

you guys go hard trying to dismiss and deplatform jacinta price and co.... constantly...

it seems some of 'the mob' believe she may have something valuable to share

should i respect the voice and experience of marcia langton?

or some baby boomer life long public service honkey who constantly displays his unbelievable proclivities towards censorship - regardless of the issue?

genuine question

https://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/national-press-club/2016-11-17/nati...

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sypkan Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 1:16pm

an excellent discussion by the way...

where the video has 'expired', but seems to be available elsewhere if anyone is interested

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GuySmiley Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 1:19pm

Ive heard Marcia Langton speak many times sypkan and there’s nothing I’ve said above in good faith she would have issue with.

Now if you’re going to be stupid and/or insulting I’m done.

oxrox's picture
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oxrox Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 1:24pm
GuySmiley wrote:

Oxrox, whether Price has any community links / backing or not (I understand she and others championed here don’t) is besides the point the one size fits all imposed from the outside simplistic approach she/they present is precisely the repeated error of the past. Each community is different and while they would all share commonalities each should be given the right/respect to decide their own future. Pretty basic/simple really.

Did you read the article Indo put up from Jacinta Price? It's on page 26 of this thread. Even if you skim over it, take note of the last sentence. It mentions "Voice" and how ironical it is that a lot of "voice" is not being heard because it's not within the current agenda. This is from an Indigenous person living in the Northern Territory. It must and should carry some weight. We need to hear and listen to all the voices to make a difference.

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sypkan Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 2:10pm
GuySmiley wrote:

Ive heard Marcia Langton speak many times sypkan and there’s nothing I’ve said above in good faith she would have issue with.

Now if you’re going to be stupid and/or insulting I’m done.

there's nothing above I would have issue with

it's just your dismissiveness and obtuseness I find frustrating, sorry, I shouldn't have thrown the H word in there, but it's shorter than 'whitefella' and I do find you incredibly frustrating. the rest of my statement / question stands, your position, location and belief system brings all sorts of assumptions with it that allowed you to fill that position... it is not necessarily wrong... but it does come across as rather dated and dogmatic...

we have agreed in the past before that aboriginal elder women have changed the conversation, and have initiated all sorts of good change in communities...

I just see jacinta price, dillon, and indo's other faves as a continuation of that process, an 'evolution' if you will...

some of you guys clearly see them as a threat - they are - to a 1990's narrative that just goes round and round and around...

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soggydog Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 2:17pm

https://apple.news/AXKfYSGr5S7uYagsnhay0mg

Bit of self determination.

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soggydog Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 2:19pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:

“Little committees”
“Echo chambers”

Really?

At the risk of repeating myself it’s always about self determination, letting each community decide for themselves via genuine consultation and that is why what Price etc say isn’t the answer, it’s more of the same. Her and other’s ideas might have merit but unless it comes from the community it’s doomed to fail.

Many remote communities already have extremely high levels of self determination to the point that you cant enter without a permit, some you cant even enter.

Has it helped these communities?

We'll ironically they are often the areas with the greatest problems.

More horse shit from the ***** shit ****. Look up One Arm Point you stupid ignorant **** shit ****.
Broad generalisations again. Shit ****!

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stunet Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 2:36pm

Hey Soggydog,

I edited a few words out of your post. Emotive topic, no doubt, but not the best way to prosecute an argument.

Happy to discuss it if need be: [email protected]

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soggydog Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 2:41pm

No worries Stu, I’ll keep it clean, can’t say it won’t be mean though. Cheers.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 3:49pm
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:

“Little committees”
“Echo chambers”

Really?

At the risk of repeating myself it’s always about self determination, letting each community decide for themselves via genuine consultation and that is why what Price etc say isn’t the answer, it’s more of the same. Her and other’s ideas might have merit but unless it comes from the community it’s doomed to fail.

Many remote communities already have extremely high levels of self determination to the point that you cant enter without a permit, some you cant even enter.

Has it helped these communities?

We'll ironically they are often the areas with the greatest problems.

More horse shit from the ***** shit ****. Look up One Arm Point you stupid ignorant **** shit ****.
Broad generalisations again. Shit ****!

You know if your aim is to get under my skin, the best way to do it would be to actually prove me wrong somehow, which would be pretty hard in this case.

Otherwise to get under someone's skin with just verbal abuse, the receiver actually either has to have some respect for the abuser or at least be engaged in proper discussion first otherwise with no investment in the conversation from either party its kind of pointless and doesn't have any real impact.

Oh and it also only works for so long so you have to use it very sparingly.

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soggydog Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 4:19pm

Did you look One Arm Point up? It is pretty much the opposite of your gross generalisations.
LMB Indo

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AlfredWallace Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 6:44pm

For Fuck sake, its the mouth from the East the West the North and South again, Indo you are never wrong as you’ve mildly convinced yourself. You are persistent, I’m going to start referring to you as The Oracle, the person who knows everything, or thinks they do. You are totally off your head. It’s comical.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 6:54pm

@soggydog

Do you know what the meaning of "Many" is?

It's different to "ALL".

The reality is we know by far overall the biggest problems are in remote and very remote communities, it's pretty hard to argue anything else, it's just fact, but yes of course it varies from community too community some have lower levels some much higher levels of problems, many of these communities also often have the highest levels of self determination.

Logic says if self determination was going to bring magical solutions then you would see a pattern where the communities with the most self determination had found solutions but it's not the case.

All that said like i said at the start of this recent conversation the other week, im not against the Uluru statement or self determination, because its a box you need to tick to move forward so you can move on from narratives like Guy spins, otherwise people like Guy will always say the problem is the people need self determination, plus probably more import it also brings a sense of ownership to the issues.

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GuySmiley Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 8:16pm

Self-determination is ridiculously more complex and nuanced than recently presented here in exceptionally simple terms ...

https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/rights-and-freedoms/right-self-deter...

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soggydog Tuesday, 7 Jun 2022 at 11:55pm

Indo, in regards to communities, do you think it’s possible that you only know about the bad outcomes. I think you are generalising to suit your position as I know of many communities that don’t have these problems to the extent that you are trying to tar an entire population of traditional owners with.
I’ve sat with initiated elders and young men in places of cultural significance that very few people will ever see. I’ve listened to their stories, had conversation, and learnt. I’ve traveled with matriarchs to places of cultural significance and had to wait in the car as they where places women held ceremony in private. I’ve walked transects across tenements identifying stone tools, sat in rock shelters with TO’s and archeologists doing excavation work. And never did I think I understand their plight or knew the answers to complex nuanced problems. I was just extremely lucky that I got paid just to hang with people and see the connection with country.
That’s why I find your consistent considered vilification of aboriginal people as a whole pretty offensive. And like I’ve said more than a few times it’s far from helpful.
Jacinta Price has spoken of her experience as an aboriginal woman, and to be honest I’ve often thought that aboriginal women would have to be one of the most disenfranchised demographics in our society as a whole, but vilification of aboriginal men as a whole hardly seems helpful regardless of wether they are from remote communities or not.
I’ve said my piece numerous times and others such as GuySmiley who have spent time working with traditional owners addressing needs have tried to present a counter argument that you have dismissed without, from what I’ve seen, any consideration at all. That’s why I rail against you so hard. In this and every other thread where I see you lack humanity for your fellow man regardless of wether you agree with them or not.
And quite frankly who are we to tell people how to live their lives. Especially aboriginal people.
In regards to remote communities with serious problems, I really don’t know what the answers are. Probably look after those that are looking after the kids as that’s where change will occur. Sit down with a young man that’s been initiated, you will see pride and the importance of tradition and culture in these communities. That’s the best place to start I suppose. Restore that pride and custodianship of the land as opposed to forcibly inter grating them in to a society they may not fit comfortably into.
You have to listen to the ones who don’t already have a soapbox too.

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AlfredWallace Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 8:03am

Soggydog, Great reply. The worrying thing is, he’s breeding. I know from all of my encounters with people who dislike aboriginal people, not always, but usually, their parents do as well and also those before them, incredibly pathetic when you break it right down. It says a lot about the ‘haters’ more than anything else. Indo needs therapy IMO, seriously, he is not of sound mind, go get help.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 8:24am

Acknowledging where the problems are and by whom isn't generalising or vilification it's actually truth telling, something everyone these days bang's on about, problem is many people only like truth telling when it makes them feel good and dont like acknowledging aspects that might make them uncomfortable.

If you're not honest about where the problems are and why, how on earth are you suppose to solve them?

BTW. While i dont agree with much of your post that was a much better constructive post on this subject than your others.

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stunet Wednesday, 8 Jun 2022 at 8:31am
AlfredWallace wrote:

Soggydog, Great reply. The worrying thing is, he’s breeding. I know from all of my encounters with people who dislike aboriginal people...

I really don't wish to get involved, however I've followed this forum since day dot and not once has Indo Dreaming proclaimed, or even inferred, "dislike for Aboriginal people". What he's done, and at times painstakingly, if a touch clumsily, is forward a solution that runs counter to the popular, long-term model.

You probably don't mean it, but dismissing people as racist only drives further societal division. Sure, some people are racist, but I see no evidence of it here.

I don't wish to get involved so I hold my tongue around forums like this, however I think it pays if everyone stopped the kneejerk reactions and just tried to see what the other person's point of view is before painting them as someone despicable.

For instance, after forty years of failure, is there benefit in trying a different method, perhaps one incorporating 'tough love' where Aboriginal people must strive rather than rely on govt handouts or humbugging? Could that foster success and pride..?

I believe that's part of what Indo has been saying.

On the flipside, is the notion of 'forty years of failure' incorrect and improvements are incremental, meaning symbolic acts (such as the Apology and the coming Uluru Statement) are worthwhile as they slowly chip away at the inequality? I mean, we have two great civilizations and it takes a while for them to align.

There's been a lot of misunderstanding on Swellnet over the years and we've copped shit for harbouring racists, and to be honest I'm getting a bit fed up with it. There are points of view, philosophies to get your head around, and just because someone doesn't share the same belief as yourself doesn't mean they wish ill of the Aboriginal community.