The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 9:11am

"Hence why a country like Indonesia that has a very long history of colonisation doesn't have these issues at such high rates"

I see what you're saying - colonisation is a good thing because it puts more milk in the coffee and makes the original people more successful.

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goofyfoot Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 9:26am

Got me fucked how Indo has the energy to post all day every day responding to numerous other posters. The man’s stamina is incredible

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AndyM Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 9:31am

When it comes to eugenics, the fella's a veritable stallion.

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AndyM Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 9:34am

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 9:35am

Reposting here so my post is not lost on the last page, as it's important for people to understand where I come from on this and not paint me in a false way as Soggy did.

@ Soggy dog DONT YOU DARE TRY TO PAINT ME AS SUGGESTING ITS ABOUT SKIN COLOUR OR HOW MUCH MELANIN AN ENTHIC GROUP HAS, ITS NOT!!!

You clearly are not paying attention.

THIS IS ABOUT CULTURE, SOME OF THE SMARTEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD HAVE DARK SKIN AND MOST ARE PEACE LOVING PEOPLE.

What PNG and Australia original peoples have in common is roots style cultures that were isolated from the rest of the world for thousands of years, then suddenly flung into a new world among cultures that had been reformed over long periods of time.

This change can not suddenly happen overnight especially when groups remain isolated from the wider community so its not at all surprising remote communities have higher rates of violence even in PNG some rates of violence and fighting is worst in remote highland areas.

Both cultures have highly patriarchal cultures because the culture has not changed much for thousands of years, and pretty much all cultures started out highly patriarchal and we still have the remnants of this even in our society

They started out like this because physical strength was power and often the best hunter the best fighter or protector was the most respected, as we know women were often seen as lower and objects of men (sadly some still see women in this way)

Cultures just like people when they interact with each other in a positive way, generally through trade reform they adapt and change, hence why a country like Indonesia that has a very long history of colonisation doesn't have these issues at such high rates because its culture has reformed through high levels of wide spread trade over hundreds of years or more.

This is no different to people, we are reformed through interaction with a wide group of people with different views this helps us evolve our views and way we see and treat others.

See post below for examples of how important culture is for success, and evidence of melanin not being a factor in success.

BTW. One thing to note, im not suggesting the high level of violence currently seen was always this high it wasn't, there is factors that are adding fuel to these things, like lack of purpose and boredom where once this was not the case as there was purpose, surviving, hunting, gathering and travelling from spot to spot (producing a healthy mind and body) and in the past they did not have access to large amounts of alcohol they do now. (technically some groups did produce alcohol but you would imagine more a treat)

indo-dreaming wrote:
AndyM wrote:

It very much sounds like you think “putting heaps of milk in the coffee” is the best way to deal with this issue.

So what are your thoughts on eugenics?

I will answer your question but i expect you to try to answer mine in return. (EDIT: it never happened , i didn't even get a reply to this)

Eugenics, well firstly just by asking this you clearly dont understand where Im coming from.

I dont believe any ethic group is better or smarter than the other, this isn't about DNA or ethnicity or skin colour it's about culture.

For instance Asians in most multicultural developed countries are generally the highest achievers in regard to education and even often income, it's not genetics though it's culture, a culture of discipline and expectation from parents/family to achieve ect.

They are also the lowest represented in the criminal justice system in most multicultural developed countries, again this comes down to culture and family expectations etc

Other cultural factors that provide them an advantage in many areas is a higher chance of having both parents and a strong family unit (very low divorce rate)

And it's not about wealth levels, even poor newly arrived Asian immigrants children have shown to excel in areas like education and go on to be high achievers in other areas.

Other than Asians in most multicultural developed countries you can see cultural based success from other groups like Indians or even Nigerians who often top the list

Nigerians are the interesting one being one group from a much larger continent of ethnic groups that to outsiders like us we often lump all together as just Africans, im not sure about in Australia but in the USA and UK they are also one of highest achieving groups both in education and income.

The opposite is true of many ethic groups in all developed countries because of cultural elements many groups under achieve in education and employment and have high levels of single parents and family breakdowns and highly represented in criminal justice system (Why? the exact opposite of cultural success, poor cultural elements)

The problems seen in PNG are obviously a result of culture and it's hard to argue over wise, however i have no doubt that if the English had also settled in PNG in the same way they had Australia all these problems would be blamed on colonisation etc which is just lazy claptrap.

"

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AlfredWallace Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 10:00am
indo-dreaming wrote:

Reposting here so my post is not lost on the last page, as it's important for people to understand where I come from on this and not paint me in a false way as Soggy did.

@ Soggy dog DONT YOU DARE TRY TO PAINT ME AS SUGGESTING ITS ABOUT SKIN COLOUR OR HOW MUCH MELANIN AN ENTHIC GROUP HAS, ITS NOT!!!

You clearly are not paying attention.

THIS IS ABOUT CULTURE, SOME OF THE SMARTEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD HAVE DARK SKIN AND MOST ARE PEACE LOVING PEOPLE.

What PNG and Australia original peoples have in common is roots style cultures that were isolated from the rest of the world for thousands of years, then suddenly flung into a new world among cultures that had been reformed over long periods of time.

This change can not suddenly happen overnight especially when groups remain isolated from the wider community so its not at all surprising remote communities have higher rates of violence even in PNG some rates of violence and fighting is worst in remote highland areas.

Both cultures have highly patriarchal cultures because the culture has not changed much for thousands of years, and pretty much all cultures started out highly patriarchal and we still have the remnants of this even in our society

They started out like this because physical strength was power and often the best hunter the best fighter or protector was the most respected, as we know women were often seen as lower and objects of men (sadly some still see women in this way)

Cultures just like people when they interact with each other in a positive way, generally through trade reform they adapt and change, hence why a country like Indonesia that has a very long history of colonisation doesn't have these issues at such high rates because its culture has reformed through high levels of wide spread trade over hundreds of years or more.

This is no different to people, we are reformed through interaction with a wide group of people with different views this helps us evolve our views and way we see and treat others.

See post below for examples of how important culture is for success, and evidence of melanin not being a factor in success.

BTW. One thing to note, im not suggesting the high level of violence currently seen was always this high it wasn't, there is factors that are adding fuel to these things, like lack of purpose and boredom where once this was not the case as there was purpose, surviving, hunting, gathering and travelling from spot to spot (producing a healthy mind and body) and in the past they did not have access to large amounts of alcohol they do now. (technically some groups did produce alcohol but you would imagine more a treat)

indo-dreaming wrote:
AndyM wrote:

It very much sounds like you think “putting heaps of milk in the coffee” is the best way to deal with this issue.

So what are your thoughts on eugenics?

I will answer your question but i expect you to try to answer mine in return. (EDIT: it never happened , i didn't even get a reply to this)

Eugenics, well firstly just by asking this you clearly dont understand where Im coming from.

I dont believe any ethic group is better or smarter than the other, this isn't about DNA or ethnicity or skin colour it's about culture.

For instance Asians in most multicultural developed countries are generally the highest achievers in regard to education and even often income, it's not genetics though it's culture, a culture of discipline and expectation from parents/family to achieve ect.

They are also the lowest represented in the criminal justice system in most multicultural developed countries, again this comes down to culture and family expectations etc

Other cultural factors that provide them an advantage in many areas is a higher chance of having both parents and a strong family unit (very low divorce rate)

And it's not about wealth levels, even poor newly arrived Asian immigrants children have shown to excel in areas like education and go on to be high achievers in other areas.

Other than Asians in most multicultural developed countries you can see cultural based success from other groups like Indians or even Nigerians who often top the list

Nigerians are the interesting one being one group from a much larger continent of ethnic groups that to outsiders like us we often lump all together as just Africans, im not sure about in Australia but in the USA and UK they are also one of highest achieving groups both in education and income.

The opposite is true of many ethic groups in all developed countries because of cultural elements many groups under achieve in education and employment and have high levels of single parents and family breakdowns and highly represented in criminal justice system (Why? the exact opposite of cultural success, poor cultural elements)

The problems seen in PNG are obviously a result of culture and it's hard to argue over wise, however i have no doubt that if the English had also settled in PNG in the same way they had Australia all these problems would be blamed on colonisation etc which is just lazy claptrap.

"

Indo. You are digging yourself into an enormous hole mate, id stop if i were you. You are casting aspersions left right and centre on a topic you know very little about. Living on Phillip Island amongst mostly white Australians with white Australian attitudes toward others has not been healthy for you.
If you could, try and contact an anthropologist or an archaeologist and sit down and talk to them for a day, you will be more the wiser. Ill remind everyone that way back at Primary school, Secondary school, we were taught NOTHING historical about aboriginal people or their existence. The only history lesson was about Capt. James Cook, all 5 seconds of Australian History. I still feel ashamed to be bereft of the knowledge and truth of our original forebears. Still the oldest and continuous existence of indigenous peoples on the planet and look at the way we still treat them. Shame, shame, shame. In a West Queensland town recently, my wife and her two aboriginal colleagues were refused accommodation in a well known ‘cowboy’ town simply because her colleagues were aboriginal, we’ve gotta do better than this. The establishment was reported and will go ‘down’ sooner rather than later.

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soggydog Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 10:06am

Indo, You still aren’t addressing the issue of colonialism and government policies that marginalised aboriginal people.
You’ve again, in another long winded but otherwise empty post, have made it a solely aboriginal problem to fix. Yet your post clearly show how far some in the wider community have to come before stereotypes and prejudice no longer divides the country into us and them. Remember this thread was about reconciliation not “we need to fix these aboriginal men” thread.

And before you get all offended, I am just replying to your, once again, completely tone deaf offering. The words are yours and you double down.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 10:52am

Whatever Soggydog

Ive given you a lot of evidence of how import culture is and clear practical examples of how culture can also bring success even for people of colour in Anglo-Saxon dominated societies to the point they even excel over so called white folk.

You can choose to ignore the importance of culture as many others will, it really doesn't matter without cultural change nothing will ever change for the broader indigenous community, especially those more isolated from general society, in particular remote communities.

The good news is there is many indigenous people who bring about the cultural change needed themselves and are smart, successful, law abiding people no different to anyone else and are not held back by focusing on any negatives of the past.

Like Anthony points out in the article below though, they also have access to all the things we take for granted, education, employment, medical care, housing ect

BTW. Those words you quote, are not mine, there is nowhere in this thread I've said that, and these comments can not be edited after ten minutes, so please dont spin complete lies.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 10:39am

Anyway another good article from Anthony Dillion.

"I recently read an article on an ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) web page with the headline “Prime Minister Albanese’s commitment to Uluru statement gives First Nations communities hope.” Having read the Uluru statement several times, I ask myself, “hope for what?” Might it be hope that all Aboriginal people have ready access to the same services and opportunities that I and the leading Indigenous proponents of the Uluru statement take for granted? That is, to live in safe environments with access to good education and meaningful jobs?

The Uluru statement proposes an Indigenous Voice to parliament, the overseeing of treaty-making, and truth-telling. However, at this stage, it is unclear how these three components will work to improve the lives of Aboriginal people.

However, that doesn’t seem to matter to advocates of the Uluru statement. They seem to be caught up in the excitement that something is going to happen, even if the details of that something are unclear.
Perhaps the Uluru statement is all about warm fuzzy feelings? On one ABC webpage, an Aboriginal woman is quoted as saying, “I feel like crying. That’s the only way I can encompass this feeling—just being acknowledged and recognised as First Nations people and that what we have culturally is important.” So how does this acknowledgement and recognition translate into practical benefits for those Indigenous people who suffer the most?

Maybe those advocating for the Uluru statement want it because it’s another opportunity to feel more Aboriginal and special. I am only speculating, but speculating is all I can do given the lack of clarity surrounding the Uluru statement. Or maybe they want it because it is a convenient distraction from addressing the challenging problems like poverty, unemployment, and unsafe living environments?

I am not outright opposing the Uluru statement, but at present, given the lack of detail, I am not convinced of its merits. If a clear explanation of how Aboriginal people will benefit is presented, then I will consider it carefully. I think some healthy scepticism is warranted at this stage, given that Indigenous affairs have a long history of symbolism, quick fixes, and silver bullets.

The new prime minister’s statement of endorsement sounds a bit like former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd’s apology; you know, the one that was meant to bring about healing.

In the weeks leading up to what was promoted as a historic moment in Australian history, I didn’t oppose the apology but said that it would not benefit Aboriginal people in any practical way and only result in some short-lived warm fuzzy feelings. You can be the judge as to whether or not I was right.

At the same time, wanting to be practical, I suggested that forgiveness is far more empowering for Indigenous Australians than any apology.

When I read the news stories about the Uluru statement and how it is giving people hope and moving them to tears, I cannot help but think what a low bar there exists for Aboriginal people.

Again, I make this claim on the basis that, so far, I have not seen a clear plan for how the Uluru statement will lead to significantly improved lives for Aboriginal Australians. Shouldn’t the bar be set at focusing on housing, education, employment, and access to modern services?

There are reports that a referendum could occur as early as May 2023. For the key Aboriginal advocates of the Uluru statement who are leading the way, I suggest they develop another statement in the interim.
These advocates are all high achievers themselves and good role models for all Australians. They live in safe and comfortable homes, earn a good income, and know where their next meal is coming from. Perhaps they can give a statement from their hearts of how they have achieved success without the Uluru statement.

I’m guessing the statement would start with something like, “I got an education, worked hard, didn’t keep myself separate from other Australians …”

Most of these Aboriginal advocates were able to take advantage of the opportunities available to them. But, of course, one’s circumstances play an essential part. Many successful Aboriginal people were either born into circumstances that had opportunities or were able to escape dire circumstances and go where the opportunities were.

For those who are unable to escape the environments that seem cut off from modern society, that will be our greatest challenge.

How does the Uluru statement help them?"

https://www.theepochtimes.com/how-does-the-uluru-statement-help-aborigin...

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stunet Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 10:54am

@GS, I just deleted your last comment.

You can refute or ignore ID's posts, but base level abuse isn't on.

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soggydog Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 11:07am
indo-dreaming wrote:

Whatever Soggydog

Ive given you a lot of evidence of how import culture is and clear practical examples of how culture can also bring success even for people of colour in Anglo-Saxon dominated societies to the point they even excel over so called white folk.

You can choose to ignore the importance of culture as many others will, it really doesn't matter without cultural change nothing will ever change for the broader indigenous community, especially those more isolated from general society, in particular remote communities.

The good news is there is many indigenous people who bring about the cultural change needed themselves and are smart, successful, law abiding people no different to anyone else and are not held back by focusing on any negatives of the past.

Like Anthony points out in the article below though, they also have access to all the things we take for granted, education, employment, medical care, housing ect

BTW. Those words you quote, are not mine, there is nowhere in this thread I've said that, and these comments can not be edited after ten minutes, so please dont spin complete lies.

No, you’ve provided your opinion. That’s it that’s all. Not to be confused with evidence.

Have you ever asked your aboriginal mate how he resists bashing and raping women given he is aboriginal. Or what turning point happened in his life that made him reject his cultural predisposition to sexual assault and violence.

Like I said mate, completely tone deaf.

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adam12 Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 11:08am

Indo, your contention that indigenous problems in Australia exist because they are culturally inferior is wrong and offensive and it would benefit the readability of these forums greatly if you weren't pretending to be an expert on fucking everything.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 11:20am

@soggydog

There is all kinds of articles and studies related to how culture drives success even for coloured people in white dominated societies.

Just a few quick examples

"Explaining Asian Americans’ academic advantage over whites

We find that the Asian-American educational advantage over whites is attributable mainly to Asian students exerting greater academic effort and not to advantages in tested cognitive abilities or socio-demographics. We test explanations for the Asian–white gap in academic effort and find that the gap can be further attributed to (i) cultural differences in beliefs regarding the connection between effort and achievement and (ii) immigration status. Finally, we highlight the potential psychological and social costs associated with Asian-American achievement success."

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

"What makes Nigerians in diaspora so successful

"In the US, Nigerians are the most highly educated of all groups, with 61 per cent holding at least a bachelors degree compared with 31 per cent of the total foreign-born population and 32 per cent of the US-born population, according to 2017 data from the Migration Policy Institute.

More than half of Nigerian immigrants (54 per cent) were most likely to occupy management positions, compared with 32 per cent of the total foreign-born population and 39 per cent of the US-born population."

https://www.ft.com/content/ca39b445-442a-4845-a07c-0f5dae5f3460

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 11:34am
adam12 wrote:

Indo, your contention that indigenous problems in Australia exist because they are culturally inferior is wrong and offensive and it would benefit the readability of these forums greatly if you weren't pretending to be an expert on fucking everything.

Nobody said or suggested inferior and nobody is suggesting Asia's or Nigerian's are superior culturally either, it's more about understanding how cultural aspects can affect outcomes in both positive and negative ways.

Im not an expert on everything, but I do try to keep an open mind and think outside cliche boxes.

@soggydog
The last part of your comment is way over the top and off the mark, you seem to not be listening at all, and wanting to put words in my mouth, which is annoying

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GuySmiley Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 11:44am
stunet wrote:

@GS, I just deleted your last comment.

You can refute or ignore ID's posts, but base level abuse isn't on.

Fair enough Stu, but can I accept your intervention as a badge of honour in this instance?

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AndyM Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 12:25pm

Indo you’re talking about culture driving success but you haven’t for a second considered the effect of racist colonial culture and it’s long-term intergenerational negative effects on indigenous Australians.
You clearly don’t appreciate how this has entrenched itself.
Simply saying “change your culture” is total bullshit.

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soggydog Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 12:27pm

Your argument holds no water, you have now changed tact from similarities in the domestic indigenous populations of PNG and Australia and social outcomes associated with culture. Ignoring colonialism.
Then you have jumped to similarities in immigrant populations and outcomes based on new opportunities and competition. From indigenous populations that have been largely self governed.

You didn’t answer my question. What do you think your mates answer would be?

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seeds Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 1:04pm

We all know these over opinionated people in the real world. They give everyone (else) the shits. They never shut up and are always right. You’re speaking your piece/reply and you can see they aren’t listening just thinking about their next self affirming verbal vomit.
Why debate with Indo? He is not able or willing to listen to different opinions.

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Robwilliams Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 1:28pm

Wishing all the indigenous crew peace and happiness.
I'm out and done kicking the can down the road. I look forward to learning and listening.
See you wherever I may.
Be who you want to.
Take care and stand tall.

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soggydog Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 1:28pm

I should have known better really.

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AlfredWallace Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 1:29pm
seeds wrote:

We all know these over opinionated people in the real world. They give everyone (else) the shits. They never shut up and are always right. You’re speaking your piece/reply and you can see they aren’t listening just thinking about their next self affirming verbal vomit.
Why debate with Indo? He is not able or willing to listen to different opinions.

Seeds. I’m sorry, he’s (ID) not able, flabbergasted as to how he cant see the basic root cause of all the issues we discuss relative to indigenous Australians, its not that hard, 4 or five lines of literature is all it takes, he must be wearing English/European blinkers, he certainly never takes a breath. I think his brain is going ten the dozen, the things he wants to say are manifesting themselves in his brain at a greater rate than he can punch the keyboard. Geez he must sleep well at night. ID i admire your passion but not your principles.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 1:31pm
AndyM wrote:

Indo you’re talking about culture driving success but you haven’t for a second considered the effect of racist colonial culture and it’s long-term intergenerational negative effects on indigenous Australians.
You clearly don’t appreciate how this has entrenched itself.
Simply saying “change your culture” is total bullshit.

Let's think about this logically.

If the effect was such a driver as you say it is, then why are the biggest problems in remote communities where indigenous culture is strongest, self governance higher than elsewhere and where outside influence is minimal both now and historically and where people are not exposed to racism or if they are, very low levels because there is few non indigenous people and im sure they would get sorted out if were racist.

While those indigenous people living side by side in cities and built up areas under this racist colonial system and culture you speak of and actually may experience racism at times have the least issues and in general the majority are no different to you and me in success.

It's pretty clear your thought's dont pass the pub test, it's the exact opposite outcome of what your theory suggest.

While on the flip side the current scenario we see supports the theory of culture being a driver.

BTW. Im not exactly saying “change your culture” but you have to be honest and acknowledge the cause of the problems, so you can deal with them, again in PNG they have no choice but to do this.

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AlfredWallace Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 1:34pm

I will end my discussion right here. Ive read so many of Indos reams of dialogue on this topic over the last year and the only message i can take away from analysing it all is that he is racist towards Aboriginal people which truly disturbs me.
I wonder what it would be like if the shoe was on the other foot, i wonder, i wonder, i wonder.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 1:47pm
soggydog wrote:

Your argument holds no water, you have now changed tact from similarities in the domestic indigenous populations of PNG and Australia and social outcomes associated with culture. Ignoring colonialism.
Then you have jumped to similarities in immigrant populations and outcomes based on new opportunities and competition. From indigenous populations that have been largely self governed.

You didn’t answer my question. What do you think your mates answer would be?

I havent changed any tact, my tact has been to show how culture can be either a positive or negative influence.

Sorry unless you answer or try to answer my questions I'm not going to answer your silly nonsense questions.

@AlfredWallace Nobody likes to be called racist, but honestly i dont give a toss what you think those that know me know im not racist, if you mistake my comments for racism then that's your issue not mine, my thoughts are not unique and most are thoughts I've gained from Indigenous people like Anthony Dillion, Jacinta Price, Warren Mundine.

@ Seeds "He is not able or willing to listen to different opinions." the irony of this comment.

Sprouting old worn out one word cliches of colonisation and racism to explain every indigenous issue is not even an opinion its just ignorance and lazy.

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GuySmiley Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 3:08pm

This notion that @info is proffering isn't his at all but that promoted by 2 or 3 disaffected individuals who aren't representative of the broader Aboriginal community nor its leadership. Like I have previously suggested to give these people equal footing in any debate is like giving the 1 in 100 climate change denying scientist equal weight in any debate. @info likes the simplistic ideas here and in other topics because it suits his nuance free political view of the world.

This line that most problems would be solved if people moved off country ignores the spiritual/cultural links between Aboriginals and their country where everything on that country and the seasons that wash through it has significance. Further, it ignores the history of colonial genocide and dispossession where mobs were rounded up (hunted) and forcibly removed off country to some mission station where colonial experiments like removal of children was routinely practiced.

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Hiccups Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 3:47pm

This is hilarious/sad/embarrassing.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 4:07pm
GuySmiley wrote:

This line that most problems would be solved if people moved off country ignores the spiritual/cultural links between Aboriginals and their country where everything on that country and the seasons that wash through it has significance..

I agree this a problematic aspect with no easy answers.

On one hand you will never close the gap while people live on country, because it's never going to be realistic to provide the services needed, education, medical services etc and there will never be the employment needed which is vital.

But on the flip side anything that is seen to move or even lure people from homelands is going to always be seen in a negative light.

We saw this under Abbots proposal to close hundreds of remote communities which were not finically viable.

While i dont pretend to have the answers I did comment on this aspect the other day with some positive ideas.

indo-dreaming wrote:
AndyM wrote:

It tends to sound like you’re in favour of bundling up remote area indigenous people and shipping them off to the cities to put them to work.

Ha ha not exactly

In all honestly i dont have the soloution or even heard a realistic soloution to this issue.

Its problematic because you need to get these people to where there is jobs, education and other services or nothing will ever change.

But by doing so you are always going to be seen as destroying culture, taking people from traditional lands etc

So much money is spent on indigenous issues for little results, maybe some of that money could be used for a resttlement scheme that is completely up to the individual but rewards them with housing and employment.

I'm strongly against race based policy, but there is ways around that for instance things could be based on other factors instead like certain community's only being able to apply

Also mining operations etc should have to give employment priority of lower skilled jobs to people living within say 1000km and have to provide training in nearby communities to help people gain employment.

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Paul McD Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 5:08pm
AlfredWallace wrote:

I will end my discussion right here. Ive read so many of Indos reams of dialogue on this topic over the last year and the only message i can take away from analysing it all is that he is racist towards Aboriginal people which truly disturbs me.
I wonder what it would be like if the shoe was on the other foot, i wonder, i wonder, i wonder.

Yep. Frustrating as it is, hope you kick around and keep contributing @AlfredWallace.
Indo, respectfullessly, could you piss of now? This topic has gone for 2 years and been mostly sabotaged by you. Nothing you've said has changed in that 2 years. A whole bunch of good folk are wasting what could be good, thought provoking ideas moving forward, debating your mundane preconcieved blueprint of make australia great the white man way.
To do it so loudly and proudly during Reconciliation week too. Your above posts are truly shocking and disturbing. I reckon you could do worse than to take some time to spend West of the divide with some indigenous crew, and then get back to us.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 6:23pm
Paul McD wrote:

Indo, respectfullessly, could you piss of now? This topic has gone for 2 years and been mostly sabotaged by you.

It's a forum where people often have opposing ideas on things, you don't agree with me, and i dont agree with you, that's fine thats life, not sabotage.

If you or others want me to post here less it's probably wise just to ignore me, instead of everyone replying to every comment of mine with outdated cliche views or throwing insults back at me.

Oh and the answer sorry is NO.

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soggydog Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 7:04pm

“Outdated cliched views”. What? As opposed to blatant racism. You don’t discuss. Not once did anyone denigrate the views of OTHERS that you have adopted. We just added that maybe culture is not as large a part of aboriginal disenfranchisement as say 200+ years of systematic oppression. You’re the cockwomble who dismisses others quite legitimate points of view as dated and cliche all the while backpedaling from your ignorant racist comments.
Don’t play the humble debater now. Most have seen you.

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AlfredWallace Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 7:21pm
Paul McD wrote:
AlfredWallace wrote:

I will end my discussion right here. Ive read so many of Indos reams of dialogue on this topic over the last year and the only message i can take away from analysing it all is that he is racist towards Aboriginal people which truly disturbs me.
I wonder what it would be like if the shoe was on the other foot, i wonder, i wonder, i wonder.

Yep. Frustrating as it is, hope you kick around and keep contributing @AlfredWallace.
Indo, respectfullessly, could you piss of now? This topic has gone for 2 years and been mostly sabotaged by you. Nothing you've said has changed in that 2 years. A whole bunch of good folk are wasting what could be good, thought provoking ideas moving forward, debating your mundane preconcieved blueprint of make australia great the white man way.
To do it so loudly and proudly during Reconciliation week too. Your above posts are truly shocking and disturbing. I reckon you could do worse than to take some time to spend West of the divide with some indigenous crew, and then get back to us.

Paul MCD. I’m restless. Eight years ago I was teaching a class of young students around the age of 19 years and some students started talking about AFL football and a few of them said did you see how well a particular aboriginal player had performed over the weekend. Mid discussion another student who was born here but of Irish descent, yelled out “ I hate aboriginal people”, i was shocked and asked him to sit down.
One minute later, couldn’t help myself I asked him ‘Well, how many aboriginal people have you met ?” His reply, ‘none’. I then asked him if he hadn’t met any aboriginal people, how do you know you dislike them. He went silent and never provided an answer. Herein lies a huge problem in our society, perceived hatred towards others by simply absorbing all the crap thats out there. We have along way to go.
I wonder if Indo has a partner or is married and if so does that person know about his attitude. Maybe he or she shares Indo’s views, if so, I definitely hope they are not breeders.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 7:26pm
soggydog wrote:

“Outdated cliched views”. What? As opposed to blatant racism. You don’t discuss. Not once did anyone denigrate the views of OTHERS that you have adopted. We just added that maybe culture is not as large a part of aboriginal disenfranchisement as say 200+ years of systematic oppression. You’re the cockwomble who dismisses others quite legitimate points of view as dated and cliche all the while backpedaling from your ignorant racist comments.
Don’t play the humble debater now. Most have seen you.

Okay well just answer that one question then that you are unable to answer then.

Why does PNG see almost all the same problems but has not been impacted by colonialism or racism like Australia has?

And why does Indonesia not have these issues at the same rates yet was impacted by colonialism for a very long period of time?

I can explain why and have and it comes down to culture, and cultural isolation.

You can write things off as being racist, but its just a cheap way of trying to shut down the opposing argument, as ive pointed out quite clearly it's not about DNA, or skin colour etc

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 7:40pm
AlfredWallace wrote:

I wonder if Indo has a partner or is married and if so does that person know about his attitude. Maybe he or she shares Indo’s views, if so, I definitely hope they are not breeders.

My wife is Indonesian with brown skin, she did actually work with an indigenous lady a few years ago with quite dark skin and also worked and friends with a lady from PNG and Africa, however she actually has what i consider racist views towards people with dark skin, and the phone conversations ive heard between her and an Indonesian friend who moved to Catherine would get me banned if i repeated them here.

And yes i have two lovely kids of mixed race.

One of my best mate's who was my best man has aboriginally ancestry with skin almost as brown as my wife.

Clearly you havent been reading my comments very well.

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Paul McD Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 8:01pm

Yes @AlfredWallace. I would say in my experiences travelling oz, most of the older generation i've come across hold extreme racist views towards Indigenous Australians. That's bred down into their families attitudes and keeps the divide wide and obvious.
Also alot of these older generational Australians in more of the regional areas on the Western half of Australia have had land and assets passed down from generation to generation. So there's a level of privilege accompanying their belief systems.
And when you follow how that land was acquired in the first place and the punishment that was dished out to the original Indigenous inhabitants that could no longer live off their own land so were left with the only option of taking (what whitey had put there for profiteering like cattle) so they could at least still eat and feed their family...well....it's fair to say those rifts are as strong today as they were back then. The only difference is they're not allowed to shoot Indigenous people anymore. I guarantee these types would if they could. But the next best option, keep them as a separate race to whiteys and villify them for not having a culture like our superior one.
There is a very ugly side to Australia that sits comfortably out of the spotlight for most people, like the above goose.

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AndyM Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 10:14pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
AndyM wrote:

Indo you’re talking about culture driving success but you haven’t for a second considered the effect of racist colonial culture and it’s long-term intergenerational negative effects on indigenous Australians.
You clearly don’t appreciate how this has entrenched itself.
Simply saying “change your culture” is total bullshit.

Let's think about this logically.

If the effect was such a driver as you say it is, then why are the biggest problems in remote communities where indigenous culture is strongest, self governance higher than elsewhere and where outside influence is minimal both now and historically and where people are not exposed to racism or if they are, very low levels because there is few non indigenous people and im sure they would get sorted out if were racist.

While those indigenous people living side by side in cities and built up areas under this racist colonial system and culture you speak of and actually may experience racism at times have the least issues and in general the majority are no different to you and me in success.

It's pretty clear your thought's dont pass the pub test, it's the exact opposite outcome of what your theory suggest.

While on the flip side the current scenario we see supports the theory of culture being a driver.

BTW. Im not exactly saying “change your culture” but you have to be honest and acknowledge the cause of the problems, so you can deal with them, again in PNG they have no choice but to do this.

Mate you claim that the biggest problems are in remote communities but how have you quantified this?
I’ve asked you this before but you’ve dodged it.

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DudeSweetDudeSweet Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 4:30am
Paul McD wrote:

Yes @AlfredWallace. I would say in my experiences travelling oz, most of the older generation i've come across hold extreme racist views towards Indigenous Australians. That's bred down into their families attitudes and keeps the divide wide and obvious.
Also alot of these older generational Australians in more of the regional areas on the Western half of Australia have had land and assets passed down from generation to generation. So there's a level of privilege accompanying their belief systems.
And when you follow how that land was acquired in the first place and the punishment that was dished out to the original Indigenous inhabitants that could no longer live off their own land so were left with the only option of taking (what whitey had put there for profiteering like cattle) so they could at least still eat and feed their family...well....it's fair to say those rifts are as strong today as they were back then. The only difference is they're not allowed to shoot Indigenous people anymore. I guarantee these types would if they could. But the next best option, keep them as a separate race to whiteys and villify them for not having a culture like our superior one.
There is a very ugly side to Australia that sits comfortably out of the spotlight for most people, like the above goose.

Sounds like extreme bullshit to me Paul.

“Most” older Australians hold extremely racist views towards Indigenous folk and West Australians would “shoot them if they could “ ? Your personal experience tells you that a LOT of West Aussies had cattle stolen off their family lands by indigenous folks and the rifts still extend to this day ? Oh really? How many genuine examples of individuals are you talking about there bloke?

You think spouting rubbish like that helps anyone?

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AlfredWallace Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 6:55am
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:
Paul McD wrote:

Yes @AlfredWallace. I would say in my experiences travelling oz, most of the older generation i've come across hold extreme racist views towards Indigenous Australians. That's bred down into their families attitudes and keeps the divide wide and obvious.
Also alot of these older generational Australians in more of the regional areas on the Western half of Australia have had land and assets passed down from generation to generation. So there's a level of privilege accompanying their belief systems.
And when you follow how that land was acquired in the first place and the punishment that was dished out to the original Indigenous inhabitants that could no longer live off their own land so were left with the only option of taking (what whitey had put there for profiteering like cattle) so they could at least still eat and feed their family...well....it's fair to say those rifts are as strong today as they were back then. The only difference is they're not allowed to shoot Indigenous people anymore. I guarantee these types would if they could. But the next best option, keep them as a separate race to whiteys and villify them for not having a culture like our superior one.
There is a very ugly side to Australia that sits comfortably out of the spotlight for most people, like the above goose.

Sounds like extreme bullshit to me Paul.

“Most” older Australians hold extremely racist views towards Indigenous folk and West Australians would “shoot them if they could “ ? Your personal experience tells you that a LOT of West Aussies had cattle stolen off their family lands by indigenous folks and the rifts still extend to this day ? Oh really? How many genuine examples of individuals are you talking about there bloke?

You think spouting rubbish like that helps anyone?

DudeSweetDudeSweet. Another white Australian in denial, it was only a small time lag before you numpties would reply in a manner that I knew you would. How do you and your kin live with yourselves just blatantly ignoring all issues that you intellectually don’t or won’t understand. What’s life like living under a rock ? We are one fucked up xenophobic nation. There’s no hope.

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DudeSweetDudeSweet Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 7:24am

Not exactly mate.

I was pointing out that Paul is either knowingly telling lies or is seriously deluded. He made several claims which any right minded person would consider laughable, except in this context they are quite disgusting. If Paul honestly wants to help heal society in Australia then I suggest he begin by not spouting divisive and hateful bullshit on Internet forums.

Imagine a young indigenous Australian getting on here and reading Paul’s disgraceful fiction that West Australians want to shoot indigenous Australians dead. Or reading his abhorrent fantasy that race relations in west Australia are at the same place they were when white settlers first started usurping land.

It’s one thing to acknowledge truths and another thing to exaggerate and lie in order to indulge his own fetish for division. Paul’s baseless lies serve no common good and are the single most divisive comments written on this entire thread.

Most older Australians don’t hold extreme racist views towards indigenous people. West Australians don’t wish they could shoot indigenous Australians. Racial issues are not at the same point they were decades ago. Australians do not want a segregated Australia. His claims to the contrary are all disgraceful lies and serve only to inspire racial tension. Paul should be ashamed for speaking such rubbish.

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AlfredWallace Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 7:40am

DSDS. You are totally delusional to think that most older Australians don’t hold severe racist views towards aboriginal people. I’m old and have lived in many of those regions PaulMcD has mentioned, the hatred and abhorrent behaviour towards them has been and still is despicable.
You wanna know the root cause of the hatred, well in W.A. in particular, most white folk see aboriginal people as road blocks to employment and jobs because they think that Native Title and other protectant policies will prevent them from getting land to mine for extractive industries and the big bucks that you earn if you work there. For every tonne of iron ore extracted from the The Pilbara, Australia has blood on its hands. Please look before your own lunchbox before attacking someone like PaulMcD who described it to a tee. Start reading books, you do learn you know, you can get educated.
Start with ‘Blood On The Wattle’ , if you’ve got kids and love all your forebears you’ll be in tears before the half way mark, that is, if you are a compassionate and decent person.

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DudeSweetDudeSweet Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 7:48am

Read books?

I lived and worked throughout WA , mostly the Pilbara for over 25 years. I know what I’m talking about and Paul does not.

I’m not debating this. Paul is talking utter rot and if you repeat the same rubbish then you’re talking utter tot too.

“West Australians wish they could shoot indigenous Australians “

FFS

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Paul McD Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 7:49am

Dude sweet Blowhard. Swellnets resident creepy stalker. Stalks me online and then makes heavy shit up about me to try to put me down. Is there a worst kind of....um...bloke?
You know i don't engage with you. Not unless you put your real name up.
You can't hide behind your keyboard forever creepo.

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DudeSweetDudeSweet Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 7:56am

Whatever. I’m not interested in you or your juvenile emotional state.

Just give your hate mongering a rest. Australia doesn’t need gronks like you talking lies to create more shit than we’ve already got.

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Paul McD Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 7:57am

Agreed @alfredwallace. Very easy to strike a nerve with the real racists on here is it. Just have to speak a little truth. Really hits where it hurts. Yes the native title claims are really ruffling some feathers over here.
Probably why the reparation conversation should have happened a long time ago.

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Paul McD Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 8:02am

So still no real name Blowin?
You wanna come on here and personally attack people constantly, even after i've repeatedly asked you to put your real name to it, and you STILL won't put it up.
Come on. Time to stop dancing around it. Otherwise, please stop trying to engage with me. I'd rather you speak with accountability so we can have a real conversation, and none of this trolling and insulting.
And i would like to know who you are after all the very personal and disrespectful allegations you made up on here.

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Paul McD Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 8:06am

@blowin, You'll either put your name up and show some honour and show that you're not someone that stalks people online when you know their identity and thus showing you're actually a man of honour and substance,
or you'll ignore this, remain anonymous...keep posting shit about me and it will be known to all that you are a completely strange, twisted, stalky troll that should be carefully watched. That's the last i have to say to you on here. From now on, i'm just gonna copy and paste this to any comment you make to me without your real name attached.

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DudeSweetDudeSweet Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 8:12am

For sure bloke. I’ve lived and worked in remote communities trying to get to experience indigenous culture and do my little bit to improve their lot with my own labour in constant 40 degree conditions, whilst you type disgusting lies on the internet about how in 2022 modern Australian society we have West Australians wanting to shoot indigenous , how they want segregation and most Australians are EXTREME racists. You’d have indigenous people believe that relations between themselves and non -indigenous are at the same low point they were in 1788.

And you think I’m the one creating division and hate.

Grow up boy. No one needs or wants your brand of petulance.

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Island Bay Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 8:13am

Using one's real name on a thread like this has nothing to do with showing honour - evidently.

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Paul McD Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 8:16am

Not sure what you mean by that exactly @islandbay. Is that directed at me?
If i've said something on the topic that's offended you could you point out what exactly? Would be happy to discuss further.

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Constance B Gibson Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 8:56am

Blowindo! But of course!

Fark sake, this thread really drags 'em out.

It's like a cockroach bait.

And in NAIDOC week!

Shouldn't you blokes be dribbling about the election or immigrants or China or something?

Oh, and have a nice day. Maybe G-Land will run. Youse can let us all know your experience and knowledge and expertise there too...

Go team!

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sypkan Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 8:57am

"...most of the older generation i've come across hold extreme racist views towards Indigenous Australians..."

nah, this is just utter bullshit

or at best, just your perspective

you are aware your view of racism is totally subjective?

and 'most' means... well in this context, the vast majority...

from my experiences travelling oz, i would say 'most' australians have nothing but compassion for aboriginal people, and wish for nothing more than the betterment of their situation

yes they may articulate that in ways you 'may' find 'racist', but that's up to you...

a lot of those statements above really aren't helpful, and are just plain dated frankly