The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

Paul McD's picture
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Paul McD Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 8:17am

Indo, your two and only two indigenous voices you have hitched your wagon to are both Liberal party members.
Any chance of broadening your horizons??

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 8:22am

Bumping his here so can be read as relevant to next post

indo-dreaming wrote:
Paul McD wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

To be honest i wasn't so focussed on the first half of his article but more the second half.

There is also no such thing as reverse racism, just racism, when you treat people differently based on race, ethnicity or skin colour it's racism, so yeah there is truth in what he is saying.

But like i said before if you dont tick these boxes and move on, you will forever have people banging on about them and saying the problem is we dont have this Uluru Statement we dont have a treaty.

Theres no point fighting these things you need to reach a point where the excuses are exhausted and then you finally might get to a point where people like Anthony, Warren & Jacinta are listened too.

Indo, the point is, racism has made life for the people that were on this land before white settlers came along 200 years ago, extremely difficult to say the least. To ignore this and not acknowledge the race of the people that have had this racist assault on them and their culture is naive and the dangerous way of thinking that is holding this conversation back. We as a nation have to look in the mirror, which includes all the past before we can move forward. It's called ownership of the past. By living the life we currently live as whitefolk that still supresses the indigenous culture is an example of us not taking ownership of the past. This is why i ask the question of what reparation can be offered to balance the ledger so to speak.
I'm surprised you keep missing this point.

The major indigenous issues these days have nothing to do with racism or the past.

If the past or racism was the main cause of major indigenous issues then indigenous people in cities living side by side with non indigenous people would be the ones with the biggest issues and suffering, yet this is where most indigenous people are no different to you and me in how they live or what they achieve.

Instead the biggest problems are seen remote communities where 99% of people are indigenous and where indigenous culture is strongest and where they have the most freedom to live as they want and most control of their communities

There is cultural elements to some of these problems (patriarchal based cultural aspects affect how women are treated) but it also has a lot to do with the fact that any group of people without access to good education, employment and medical/mental health services etc will always have many of these issues no matter ethnicity or past history, we see this all around the world in all ethnic groups of people, if you dont have good education, employment and health care you have issues (especially interracial welfare dependency)

Anyway this popped up in my FB feed today from Jacinta Price another smart driven indigenous person and someone that has lived and been affected by these issues, and just been elected to Senate so hopefully will become a more mainstream name.

"Jacinta Nampijinpa Price, is a Country Liberal Party senator for the Northern Territory.
It is hard to hear the softest of voices in a room filled with clamouring chatter. Only in silence can the quiet truly be heard. Thus, the genuine voices of Indigenous suffering are being drowned out by the virtue-signalling calls for a “voice” and “recognition”.

Indigenous recognition has become the latest virtuous fad; where on any given day in our nation you can be confronted with non-Indigenous Australians vying to have their virtues heard when they monotonously and mechanically pay their “respects to elders past, present and emerging”. Simultaneously, Australians with Indigenous heritage purport to be “proud” members of some – or a number of – tribes belonging to the fashionably termed “First Nations”.

Labor prides itself on acknowledgments to “First Nations” Aboriginal Australians and there is nothing more “virtue-signalling” than Anthony Albanese’s self-gratifying act of flanking himself in the parliamentary press room with the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flags.

There is a stark difference, however, between “big-noting” oneself and actually acknowledging and committing to act on the fact that Indigenous women and children are still being victimised by domestic and family violence and sexual assault at many times the national rate.

What becomes stark is the lack of “recognition” for the reality of the Indigenous voices of victims of violence and sexual abuse, which are blatantly ignored by the virtue signalling class.

There is no mention in the voice to parliament about how we as Indigenous Australians, along with the wider Australian community, are going to confront this reality and start protecting and supporting victims.
There is no mention in the Uluru Statement from the Heart how we as Indigenous Australians are going to confront the crisis of family violence and child sexual abuse.

There is no mention in treaty talks of how Aboriginal Australians are going to work to end violence and sexual abuse in their communities suffering the highest rates of DV and sexual violence.

In all of the fallout from the police shooting death of my nephew in Yuendumu, and the demands of “justice” for his death, there has never been a single demand from my family’s community for justice in response to the countless other homicides, sexual assaults and cases of horrific interpersonal violence caused by those we are related to as kin.

I sat in a courtroom two years ago to support my niece as she and my cousin, her aunty, gave evidence in her case brought against her own father for raping and violently abusing her. Aside from my aunt, her aunt, my mother and my father, not once during the trial did our other family members come to her side in support of her as a victim, or to demand justice for the horrifying trauma inflicted on her by her own father. Instead, she and her aunt came under immediate threat for reporting the horror to police.

It was the perpetrator who received and continues to receive support from family. So much so, his brother took it upon himself to attack my cousin, my niece’s aunt, with an axe while she worked at the primary school – simply for supporting her niece to fight for justice.

The attack was witnessed by schoolchildren. If the brother of an accused rapist and abuser took it upon themselves to attack a woman with an axe in a school in Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, Adelaide or Perth, it would have made national headlines. The perpetrator would have been called out, marches for women would have taken to the streets of cities and there would have been grand demands to smash the patriarchy.

But unfortunately for my cousin and my niece, they are voiceless Aboriginal women who are easily controlled and abused in communities that are out of sight and out of mind of the “virtue-signalling” class. These attacks cannot be fixed by “Welcome to Country” or elders past, present and emerging. Certainly the elders in my niece’s and cousin’s community did not acknowledge nor demand justice for the crimes committed against them.

My niece has had to flee to another state for fear of further violent reprisals. She has been dispossessed of her community because her own family would side with the perpetrator. Yet no excuse exists for such violence and abuse to be acceptable. Nor does any excuse exist for any person – no matter who they are – to not call out this horror, stand up for victims and let them be heard.

These raw and unpleasant truths must be dragged out of the darkness and into the light so Aboriginal women and girls – Australian citizens like my niece and cousin – might one day have their silenced voices heard.

Yet still atop of the Labor government’s list of priorities for supposed betterment of our first people is recognition, treaty and – most ironically – voice."

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE1...

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 8:39am
Paul McD wrote:

Indo, your two and only two indigenous voices you have hitched your wagon to are both Liberal party members.
Any chance of broadening your horizons??

Okay just answer this one question please.

If racism is the big problem as you suggest.

Then why by far are the biggest indigenous problems found in remote communities where 99% of people are indigenous and where indigenous culture is strongest and where they have the most freedom to live as they want and elders ect have most control of their communities.

?????

While indigenous people that live side by side with non indigenous people in cities ect have far far far less issues and generally live and achieve in the same ways non indigenous people do.

But if racism was the major root of these problems as you believe it is, shouldn't the outcome be the exact opposite??

Id really love to hear your explanation on this.

BTW. As pointed out Warren Mundine had a much longer deeper involvement in the Labor party then LNP he was even national president of the Labor party, Anthony Dillion is not involved in politics and although he works for some Catholic College he has made it clear may times he is not religious.

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oxrox Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 9:14am

Here's a novel idea. Why don't we let the indigenous people who are affected by this, be open to have their say like the Price's, Mundine's, Dillon's and the 9 or 10 indigenous people elected to parliament which are mainly Labor, Green or Independent. I note Ken Wyatt was not reelected and yes, he was LNP, but being indigenous, I think, had the best interests of his people at heart.
So let them have their say and us white folk back off and listen. Obviously, there is differing opinions within their own people as per what Indo put up and they should be listened to. Let them thrash it out.

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Cockee Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 9:42am

Look at the indigenous round nonsense in the AFL and NRL at present, it's gotten completely out of hand. Melbourne AFL even changed their name to 'Narrm' ffs.

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Hiccups Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 9:46am
Cockee wrote:

Look at the indigenous round nonsense in the AFL and NRL at present, it's gotten completely out of hand. Melbourne AFL even changed their name to 'Narrm' ffs.

Is it actually "completely out of hand", or are you just a redneck piece of shit?

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AndyM Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 11:05am

“The major indigenous issues these days have nothing to do with….the past”

Indo you’re so unbelievably ignorant.

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 11:37am

@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul

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sypkan Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 12:07pm

"...We as a nation have to look in the mirror, which includes all the past before we can move forward. It's called ownership of the past..."

I don't really want to get involved, because this shit has been gone over a million times...

but statements like this annoy the fuck out of me... aside from a few redneck land owners maybe, and some conservative commentators perhaps...

who the hell is this absolite minute minority of people denying the atrocities of the past?

I literally do not know anyone - a single person... (and I know some rednecky types...) who deny the blackfellas were fucked over

everyday just about on the drum and various other abc shows, there's some advocate saying we need to 'face our history' and we need a 'truth telling' and various other buzzy terms...

the history wars are done!

totally!!! ...for want of a better term, 'the progressives' have won... the dark history is everywhere, 'the stolen generation' is mainstream history, so much so, just about every euro or other visitor to australia, is well well aware of our history. the school curriculum is absolutely heavily laden with 'aboriginal perspectives' history, every single subject is taught through an 'indigenous lens' or theme...

what is this supposed history we are not facing?

what is it advocates believe we still need to face?

is this mode of thinking purely based around financial compensation?

and yeh, absolute shame ken wyatt was voted out, but he will find another significant role, he's clearly a passionate, significant, very competent man...

linda burney eagerly said so the other day (she worked intensively with him)

who woulda thought? ....a labor (lefty) praising the contributions of a liberal party member...

read some of the shit on here, and one would think that is an absolute impossibility

liberal = all that's rotten and bad

yeh nah...

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sypkan Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 12:08pm

surely the need for listening to 'aboriginal perspectives', means listening to ALL aboriginal perspectives...

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Paul McD Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 12:31pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
Paul McD wrote:

Indo, your two and only two indigenous voices you have hitched your wagon to are both Liberal party members.
Any chance of broadening your horizons??

Okay just answer this one question please.

If racism is the big problem as you suggest.

Then why by far are the biggest indigenous problems found in remote communities where 99% of people are indigenous and where indigenous culture is strongest and where they have the most freedom to live as they want and elders ect have most control of their communities.

?????

While indigenous people that live side by side with non indigenous people in cities ect have far far far less issues and generally live and achieve in the same ways non indigenous people do.

But if racism was the major root of these problems as you believe it is, shouldn't the outcome be the exact opposite??

Id really love to hear your explanation on this.

BTW. As pointed out Warren Mundine had a much longer deeper involvement in the Labor party then LNP he was even national president of the Labor party, Anthony Dillion is not involved in politics and although he works for some Catholic College he has made it clear may times he is not religious.

Fark Indo. Really? We've been over this in this very thread, and no matter what i produced you still couldn't see it/ignored it. You want me to do that again? No way. Go back and look for yourself. It's all there.
I can see you have your beliefs and they're not going to change. An open perspective on the topic, especially in the situation of putting yourself in others shoes, i.e Indigenous Australians and thinking of the situation from that perspective would be something i think all of us could benefit from.
Go back and read it all. We thrashed these exact points out.

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Paul McD Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 12:37pm
sypkan wrote:

"...We as a nation have to look in the mirror, which includes all the past before we can move forward. It's called ownership of the past..."

I don't really want to get involved, because this shit has been gone over a million times...

but statements like this annoy the fuck out of me... aside from a few redneck land owners maybe, and some conservative commentators perhaps...

who the hell is this absolite minute minority of people denying the atrocities of the past?

I literally do not know anyone - a single person... (and I know some rednecky types...) who deny the blackfellas were fucked over

everyday just about on the drum and various other abc shows, there's some advocate saying we need to 'face our history' and we need a 'truth telling' and various other buzzy terms...

the history wars are done!

totally!!! ...for want of a better term, 'the progressives' have won... the dark history is everywhere, 'the stolen generation' is mainstream history, so much so, just about every euro or other visitor to australia, is well well aware of our history. the school curriculum is absolutely heavily laden with 'aboriginal perspectives' history, every single subject is taught through an 'indigenous lens' or theme...

what is this supposed history we are not facing?

what is it advocates believe we still need to face?

is this mode of thinking purely based around financial compensation?

and yeh, absolute shame ken wyatt was voted out, but he will find another significant role, he's clearly a passionate, significant, very competent man...

linda burney eagerly said so the other day (she worked intensively with him)

who woulda thought? ....a labor (lefty) praising the contributions of a liberal party member...

read some of the shit on here, and one would think that is an absolute impossibility

liberal = all that's rotten and bad

yeh nah...

I respectfully disagree with you on this one Sypkan.
I also don't wanna go into it all over and over again, firstly because i have fuck all in the way of answers, but secondly, because it's been done to death on some levels.
What i am observing is that if we had truly faced the history of the past and what has happened, we wouldn't still have the problems we have today. And the problems are real. There's a seething dislike and distrust of whitefellas simmering under the surface, well it seems that way to me.
Facing history isn't reading books and going,,...ahhh i see. It's addressing the past misdeeds in n open public forum and finding ways to repair those wounds from what has happened. We've only glanced in the rearview mirror so to speak for the most part, but kept driving forward.
Anyway, that's my opinion. Doesn't mean it's right, but it's the way i see it. Anyway, gonna watch G Land. Cheers.

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Paul McD Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 12:42pm

btw, regarding the Indigenous round in the AFL. The Indigenous fellas in the AFL teams love it. They are proud to stand strong and united in these rounds which are showcased to the country.
The Richmond boys did there thing the other night in front of a packed MCG and they couldn't have been prouder. I think they likened that moment to as good as winning a premiership.
Some of you might think this sort of thing is tokenism, but fundamentally, it's sharing culture, which is what is part of the healing.
To deny sounds a little like proclaiming superiority to the other.

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Cockee Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 12:51pm

Celebrate indigenous players by all means but given there is zero recognition of any other ethnicities playing the game it is incredibly discriminatory and over-the-top to put indigenous players and culture on some sort of pedestal that we are all meant to swoon over. As indo and others (incl aboriginals) have said, 'welcome to country', 'respecting (only indigenous) elders' and flags of all descriptions a-flutter is all feel-good fluff which doesn't touch the surface of what really happens in indigenous communities.

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AndyM Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 12:56pm
indo-dreaming wrote:

@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul

Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.

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Paul McD Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 12:56pm

Probably done more so because of the Indigenous history of 40000 plus years in this country Cockee, as opposed to other ethnicities that aren't actually from this country. A little recognition for a people who's land was stolen off them offends you??

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 1:17pm
Paul McD wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Paul McD wrote:

Indo, your two and only two indigenous voices you have hitched your wagon to are both Liberal party members.
Any chance of broadening your horizons??

Okay just answer this one question please.

If racism is the big problem as you suggest.

Then why by far are the biggest indigenous problems found in remote communities where 99% of people are indigenous and where indigenous culture is strongest and where they have the most freedom to live as they want and elders ect have most control of their communities.

?????

While indigenous people that live side by side with non indigenous people in cities ect have far far far less issues and generally live and achieve in the same ways non indigenous people do.

But if racism was the major root of these problems as you believe it is, shouldn't the outcome be the exact opposite??

Id really love to hear your explanation on this.

BTW. As pointed out Warren Mundine had a much longer deeper involvement in the Labor party then LNP he was even national president of the Labor party, Anthony Dillion is not involved in politics and although he works for some Catholic College he has made it clear may times he is not religious.

Fark Indo. Really? We've been over this in this very thread, and no matter what i produced you still couldn't see it/ignored it. You want me to do that again? No way. Go back and look for yourself. It's all there.
I can see you have your beliefs and they're not going to change. An open perspective on the topic, especially in the situation of putting yourself in others shoes, i.e Indigenous Australians and thinking of the situation from that perspective would be something i think all of us could benefit from.
Go back and read it all. We thrashed these exact points out.

Argh okay i thought we had a new poster but judging by these cliche views I'm guessing Blue Diamond.

So yeah no surprise that you can't answer this question that you or nobody else has ever been able to answer, along with why PNG sees almost all the same issues but is 9.99% Papuan (no racism issues) and never had the impact of colonialism like Australia has. (very minimal exposure to colonialism)

Because both PNG and Australia indigenous groups have the same issues of being disconnected from the rest of the world for so long, where their culture was very roots style and hasn't been influenced by the outside world and cultural aspects reformed especially in regards to treatment of women, both cultures have roots in very patriarchal societies.

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 1:20pm
AndyM wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul

Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.

Just admit it you cant answer the question, it's a very reasonable question to ask.

Bu dont worry NOBODY has ever been able to answer it.

BTW: Having a civil mature discussion is not trolling, trolling is what Facto does, not engaging in meaningful conversation at all but just abusing people or baiting people etc

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Paul McD Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 1:48pm

Ahh Indo. Why do i even bother......
Yep. BD. Yep Cliched views. Guilty guilty...moving along.....

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AndyM Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 1:52pm

It very much sounds like you think “putting heaps of milk in the coffee” is the best way to deal with this issue.

So what are your thoughts on eugenics?

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Hiccups Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 3:06pm
AndyM wrote:

It very much sounds like you think “putting heaps of milk in the coffee” is the best way to deal with this issue.

So what are your thoughts on eugenics?

Haha!

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GuySmiley Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 4:26pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
AndyM wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul

Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.

Just admit it you cant answer the question, it's a very reasonable question to ask.

Bu dont worry NOBODY has ever been able to answer it.

BTW: Having a civil mature discussion is not trolling, trolling is what Facto does, not engaging in meaningful conversation at all but just abusing people or baiting people etc

It’s my observation over the years this issue and other like ones always comes back to this stalemate.

It’s really not about this indigenous issue as discussed above the “real” issue for people like @info is one of free speech where he wants to “constructively” engage in the discussion with ideas cherry picked from obscure or isolated minority and in the eyes of some offensive sources. He isn’t for turning and understandably attracts abuse (also from me in the past) at which time he cries foul. Like @zen I don’t think @info is racist but he seems to lack an understanding that words matter and can cut like a dagger and can cause more harm than getting abused or trolled.

I’m hoping @info has a good break away from the keyboard in indo, gets pitted, reads Dark Emu like he promised he would do when next in indo and comes back more reflective on his strident positions on complex social issues.

Rant over and out.

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Paul McD Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 4:57pm
GuySmiley wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
AndyM wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul

Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.

Just admit it you cant answer the question, it's a very reasonable question to ask.

Bu dont worry NOBODY has ever been able to answer it.

BTW: Having a civil mature discussion is not trolling, trolling is what Facto does, not engaging in meaningful conversation at all but just abusing people or baiting people etc

It’s my observation over the years this issue and other like ones always comes back to this stalemate.

It’s really not about this indigenous issue as discussed above the “real” issue for people like @info is one of free speech where he wants to “constructively” engage in the discussion with ideas cherry picked from obscure or isolated minority and in the eyes of some offensive sources. He isn’t for turning and understandably attracts abuse (also from me in the past) at which time he cries foul. Like @zen I don’t think @info is racist but he seems to lack an understanding that words matter and can cut like a dagger and can cause more harm than getting abused or trolled.

I’m hoping @info has a good break away from the keyboard in indo, gets pitted, reads Dark Emu like he promised he would do when next in indo and comes back more reflective on his strident positions on complex social issues.

Rant over and out.

Nailed it @guysmiley.
Exactly why i can't be farked engaging in a pointless dialogue with I.D.
I wonder if I.D could ever picture himself being black, and how his life would be different in this country. I know personally in my home town that it's not everyday that you see an indigenous Australian in my white home town. How would i feel as an indigenous Australian walking down the street, into all the shops, past the older generation....what sort of response would i be feeling as opposed to being an 'ordinary' whitefella in this situation. Would i feel paranoid? Would i feel like an outcast? Would i feel anger that i'm an outcast on my own land? I could go on. How would Indo Dreaming feel if he was Blackfella Indo Dreaming? There's so many intricacies that get overlooked.

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DudeSweetDudeSweet Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 5:08pm
GuySmiley wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
AndyM wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul

Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.

Just admit it you cant answer the question, it's a very reasonable question to ask.

Bu dont worry NOBODY has ever been able to answer it.

BTW: Having a civil mature discussion is not trolling, trolling is what Facto does, not engaging in meaningful conversation at all but just abusing people or baiting people etc

It’s my observation over the years this issue and other like ones always comes back to this stalemate.

It’s really not about this indigenous issue as discussed above the “real” issue for people like @info is one of free speech where he wants to “constructively” engage in the discussion with ideas cherry picked from obscure or isolated minority and in the eyes of some offensive sources. He isn’t for turning and understandably attracts abuse (also from me in the past) at which time he cries foul. Like @zen I don’t think @info is racist but he seems to lack an understanding that words matter and can cut like a dagger and can cause more harm than getting abused or trolled.

I’m hoping @info has a good break away from the keyboard in indo, gets pitted, reads Dark Emu like he promised he would do when next in indo and comes back more reflective on his strident positions on complex social issues.

Rant over and out.

Great comment.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 5:57pm
AndyM wrote:

It very much sounds like you think “putting heaps of milk in the coffee” is the best way to deal with this issue.

So what are your thoughts on eugenics?

I will answer your question but i expect you to try to answer mine in return.

Eugenics, well firstly just by asking this you clearly dont understand where Im coming from.

I dont believe any ethic group is better or smarter than the other, this isn't about DNA or ethnicity or skin colour it's about culture.

For instance Asians in most multicultural developed countries are generally the highest achievers in regard to education and even often income, it's not genetics though it's culture, a culture of discipline and expectation from parents/family to achieve ect.

They are also the lowest represented in the criminal justice system in most multicultural developed countries, again this comes down to culture and family expectations etc

Other cultural factors that provide them an advantage in many areas is a higher chance of having big parents and a strong family unit

And it's no about wealth levels, even poor newly arrived Asian immigrants children have shown to excel in areas like education and go on to be high achievers in other areas.

Other than Asians in most multicultural developed countries you can see cultural based success from other groups like Indians or even Nigerians.

Nigerians are the interesting one being one group from a much larger continent of evince groups the from an outsiders view on the face of things din seem the different, however not sure about in Australia but in the USA and UK they are also one of highest achieving groups both in education and income.

The opposite is true of many ethic groups in all developed countries because of cultural elements.

The problems seen in PNG are obvious a result of culture and it's hard to argue over wise, however i have no doubt that if the English had also settled in PNG in the same way they had Australia all these problems would be blamed on colonisation etc which is just lazy claptrap.

@Guy I wont be reading Dark Emu the main points of his book have been throughly debunked by quite a few now including well respected anthropologist Peter Sutton, id much rather read his book debunking it "Farmers or Hunter and Gathers"

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 6:08pm
Paul McD wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
AndyM wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul

Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.

Just admit it you cant answer the question, it's a very reasonable question to ask.

Bu dont worry NOBODY has ever been able to answer it.

BTW: Having a civil mature discussion is not trolling, trolling is what Facto does, not engaging in meaningful conversation at all but just abusing people or baiting people etc

It’s my observation over the years this issue and other like ones always comes back to this stalemate.

It’s really not about this indigenous issue as discussed above the “real” issue for people like @info is one of free speech where he wants to “constructively” engage in the discussion with ideas cherry picked from obscure or isolated minority and in the eyes of some offensive sources. He isn’t for turning and understandably attracts abuse (also from me in the past) at which time he cries foul. Like @zen I don’t think @info is racist but he seems to lack an understanding that words matter and can cut like a dagger and can cause more harm than getting abused or trolled.

I’m hoping @info has a good break away from the keyboard in indo, gets pitted, reads Dark Emu like he promised he would do when next in indo and comes back more reflective on his strident positions on complex social issues.

Rant over and out.

Nailed it @guysmiley.
Exactly why i can't be farked engaging in a pointless dialogue with I.D.
I wonder if I.D could ever picture himself being black, and how his life would be different in this country. I know personally in my home town that it's not everyday that you see an indigenous Australian in my white home town. How would i feel as an indigenous Australian walking down the street, into all the shops, past the older generation....what sort of response would i be feeling as opposed to being an 'ordinary' whitefella in this situation. Would i feel paranoid? Would i feel like an outcast? Would i feel anger that i'm an outcast on my own land? I could go on. How would Indo Dreaming feel if he was Blackfella Indo Dreaming? There's so many intricacies that get overlooked.

Funny when you or others try to bring up scenarios like this but forget that one of my best mate's has indigenous background not black but still brown, while another mate whom i also lived with for a while is indigenous and has much darker skin, back then when we were living together with others, it barely was mentioned or even thought about.

Only difference between them me and my other mates was they pulled much more chicks.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 6:55pm

Re reading 1st post above lots of mistakes, i didnt get to edit properly as was in a rush but you get the idea.

And meant "both parents" not big parents :D damn auto spell or maybe its my denial of needing glasses

Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 8:02pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
Paul McD wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
AndyM wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul

Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.

Just admit it you cant answer the question, it's a very reasonable question to ask.

Bu dont worry NOBODY has ever been able to answer it.

BTW: Having a civil mature discussion is not trolling, trolling is what Facto does, not engaging in meaningful conversation at all but just abusing people or baiting people etc

It’s my observation over the years this issue and other like ones always comes back to this stalemate.

It’s really not about this indigenous issue as discussed above the “real” issue for people like @info is one of free speech where he wants to “constructively” engage in the discussion with ideas cherry picked from obscure or isolated minority and in the eyes of some offensive sources. He isn’t for turning and understandably attracts abuse (also from me in the past) at which time he cries foul. Like @zen I don’t think @info is racist but he seems to lack an understanding that words matter and can cut like a dagger and can cause more harm than getting abused or trolled.

I’m hoping @info has a good break away from the keyboard in indo, gets pitted, reads Dark Emu like he promised he would do when next in indo and comes back more reflective on his strident positions on complex social issues.

Rant over and out.

Nailed it @guysmiley.
Exactly why i can't be farked engaging in a pointless dialogue with I.D.
I wonder if I.D could ever picture himself being black, and how his life would be different in this country. I know personally in my home town that it's not everyday that you see an indigenous Australian in my white home town. How would i feel as an indigenous Australian walking down the street, into all the shops, past the older generation....what sort of response would i be feeling as opposed to being an 'ordinary' whitefella in this situation. Would i feel paranoid? Would i feel like an outcast? Would i feel anger that i'm an outcast on my own land? I could go on. How would Indo Dreaming feel if he was Blackfella Indo Dreaming? There's so many intricacies that get overlooked.

Funny when you or others try to bring up scenarios like this but forget that one of my best mate's has indigenous background not black but still brown, while another mate whom i also lived with for a while is indigenous and has much darker skin, back then when we were living together with others, it barely was mentioned or even thought about.

Only difference between them me and my other mates was they pulled much more chicks.

Reckon you're the only one with indigenous mates Indo?
That has nothing to do with your ideology. Nor mine.
Fuck i'd hope not!! Makes me wonder why you'd even say that.

Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 8:09pm

I honestly wonder if you've ever considered what it's like to be an indigenous Australian living in your own country, that was stolen off of you, and being on the wrong side of the tracks because you're not of the white class.
Having mates that are indigenous is not living through their eyes.

Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 8:11pm

Argh fuckit. I engaged. Dammit! I'll go and headbutt the wall now. As you were Indo. We both know this convo is only going to go the same old way.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 8:58pm
Paul McD wrote:

I honestly wonder if you've ever considered what it's like to be an indigenous Australian living in your own country, that was stolen off of you, and being on the wrong side of the tracks because you're not of the white class.
Having mates that are indigenous is not living through their eyes.

The problem with people like you is you want everyone to be a victim, well the reality is not all indigenous people feel like victims, many like my mates dont even think or care about their indigenous background, in the same way i dont care much for my ethnic background.

Anyway i would have changed my profile name too after all the embarrassing anti vaxer crap you posted last year.

BTW. it's 2023 Australia is made up of a huge mix of people of ethnic backgrounds and skin colour shade's, your "white class" and other "white this or that" lines are outdated, non indigenous is a better term to describe Australians who are not indigenous.

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adam12 Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 9:16pm

Indo 'BTW. it's 2023 Australia is made up of..'
Er, what year is it?

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Rabbits68 Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 11:05pm
AndyM wrote:

“The major indigenous issues these days have nothing to do with….the past”

Indo you’re so unbelievably ignorant.

Devastatingly ignorant.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 7:38am
adam12 wrote:

Indo 'BTW. it's 2023 Australia is made up of..'
Er, what year is it?

ha ha i was multi tasking doing 2023 bookings, i should leave multitasking upon to my missus who can actually do it with success.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 7:57am
Rabbits68 wrote:
AndyM wrote:

“The major indigenous issues these days have nothing to do with….the past”

Indo you’re so unbelievably ignorant.

Devastatingly ignorant.

The point is what are the main drivers?

Social economic disadvantage and generations of welfare dependency etc??

Cultural drivers? (such as we also see in PNG)

Or the past??

I't's completely ignorant to ignore the first two drivers, there is so much evidence for these two aspects, but very little too none for the last one, which is more a theory, for all we know if Australia had never been colonised or in a similar way to PNG but still been thrust into a modern world as all countries are bound too be, what's to say Indigenous people wouldn't still face many of the problems seen now or like seen in PNG.

The evidence is also in all the successful indigenous people that don't have exposure to negative cultural aspects, and have a decent education and decent employment and as a result, all the issues that face other indigenous people especially in remote communities are not seen at any higher levels than the general population.

If the past was such a big factor, they also wouldn't be able to escape it.

People need to start actually thinking about things and no jus blindly believing cliche outdated views and listening to what indigenous people like Jacinta, Anthony and Warren are saying

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 7:56am

“ Social economic disadvantage and generations of welfare dependency etc??

Or the past??”

How can you not link the two??

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Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 8:10am

Indo you continue to drag the conversation through the sewer.
This post was created as a platform for those who understand there is a need to address an obvious issue and share ideas of a way forward.
You come on here, listen to no one, stay at the same base level of intelligence that you've shown throughout this thread for the last year and then have the gall to insult me. All during a culturally significant week for indigenous Australians.
Put your name to your profile if you're gonna throw insults mate.
That's why i changed mine. Accountability.
I don't want to change your opinion. I don't want to debate you. You're a proven nuisance that is stuck in your conservative shackles.
One handy hint. Just because you can put lots and lots of words in a post, doesn't necessarily give it substance or truth.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 8:11am
AndyM wrote:

“ Social economic disadvantage and generations of welfare dependency etc??

Or the past??”

How can you not link the two??

You can't break the cycle when people live in areas where there is little to no employment options and in most cases never will be.

One hundred years from now nothing will be different.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 8:15am

So what’s your point?

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 8:28am

You know who i am Paul and i know who you are, judging by your FB profile you actually appear to be a fairly normal bloke,(unlike your mate Facto) i have nothing against you personally, i just strongly disagree with your views.

Views that i once beleived myself and parrotted (especially the first page or two) i then actually expanded my views and started actually thinking about things logically and listening to people like Jacinta, Anthony, Warren.

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AndyM Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 8:27am

It tends to sound like you’re in favour of bundling up remote area indigenous people and shipping them off to the cities to put them to work.

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Paul McD Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 8:49am

Most of this thread has been wasted trying to simplify and explain obvious truths to you Indo. (and hutch!).
No more from me. Wasted time and effort.
Happy to share ideas and listen to others thoughts on the subject.
I would say that largely the problems facing indigenous Austrlians exist's because of people like you and your rigid unchanging views Indo.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 9:03am
AndyM wrote:

It tends to sound like you’re in favour of bundling up remote area indigenous people and shipping them off to the cities to put them to work.

Ha ha not exactly

In all honestly i dont have the soloution or even heard a realistic soloution to this issue.

Its problematic because you need to get these people to where there is jobs, education and other services or nothing will ever change.

But by doing so you are always going to be seen as destroying culture, taking people from traditional lands etc

So much money is spent on indigenous issues for little results, maybe some of that money could be used for a resttlement scheme that is completely up to the individual but rewards them with housing and employment.

I'm strongly against race based policy, but there is ways around that for instance things could be based on other factors instead like certain community's only being able to apply

Also mining operations etc should have to give employment priority of lower skilled jobs to people living within say 1000km and have to provide training in nearby communities to help people gain employment.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 9:13am
Paul McD wrote:

Most of this thread has been wasted trying to simplify and explain obvious truths to you Indo. (and hutch!).
No more from me. Wasted time and effort.
Happy to share ideas and listen to others thoughts on the subject.
I would say that largely the problems facing indigenous Austrlians exist's because of people like you and your rigid unchanging views Indo.

Okay gotcha so im the reason why indigenous women are up to 80 times more likely to experience domestic violence than other Australian women.

Of course it has nothing to do with thousands of years of culture that sees women as objects of men in a high patriarchal society.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 10:00am
indo-dreaming wrote:
Paul McD wrote:

Most of this thread has been wasted trying to simplify and explain obvious truths to you Indo. (and hutch!).
No more from me. Wasted time and effort.
Happy to share ideas and listen to others thoughts on the subject.
I would say that largely the problems facing indigenous Austrlians exist's because of people like you and your rigid unchanging views Indo.

Okay gotcha so im the reason why indigenous women are up to 80 times more likely to experience domestic violence than other Australian women.

Of course it has nothing to do with thousands of years of culture that sees women as objects of men in a high patriarchal society.

All you need is more milk in the coffee, right?

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soggydog Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 10:14am

For decades Australia passed laws that prevented aboriginal people being included in Australian society equally. We had a white Australia policy ffs.
So I think saying. “They’re doing it to them selves and they need to clean their
act up and the Uluru statement of the heart won’t change anything, is to deny that generations of disaffected aboriginal people have faced trauma because of statements then laws passed in our history by largely white men. That is a fact and in no way should any of you white precious men start on about “white guilt “ blah blah. And as a result aboriginal people have higher rates of poor outcomes in life.
If the Uluru Statement of the Heart changes the National mindset towards National unity and a combined effort to help everyone one up then it is extremely important as policy and laws are ideas and tools to shape the future in a direction that started as a statement.

Then as an understanding community we can tackle the isolated community issues together. Because regardless of what some of you may think because you had a couple of aboriginal mates, living and working all over Western Australia we’ve still got a long way to go before we have an equal society. And people’s mind set is a large part of that.

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oxrox Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 10:22am

So, we just discount what Jacinta Price has said because she is a liberal?

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Fliplid Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 10:22am

Indo said"-Education
-Employment
-Health care
-Cultural change & true truth telling."

Isn't this a start?

This mirrors what other indigenous leaders have been calling for. It's one thing to get some type of formal recognition but unless that is followed up with practical solutions nothing will really change.

"Currently, we have 10 entities working on the ground with the people of Cape York and Cairns to break the cycle of disadvantage.
This work includes creating pathways to all forms of education, meaningful employment, leadership opportunities, cultural preservation and healthcare."

https://capeyorkpartnership.org.au/about-us/

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soggydog Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 10:27am
oxrox wrote:

So, we just discount what Jacinta Price has said because she is a liberal?

Not at all, but she’s just one voice.

And let’s face it. What she said is pretty convenient for some.