The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

Constance B Gibson's picture
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Constance B Gibson Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 8:57am

And then there's Larry!

Bingo!

sypkan's picture
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sypkan Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 9:04am

bingo bingo!

so predictable

but nothing to contribute...

Snuffy Smith's picture
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Snuffy Smith Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 9:29am

Blokes world?

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 9:37am

Wonder what Bertrand would make of our post-truth society.

sypkan's picture
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sypkan Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 9:45am
Snuffy Smith wrote:

Blokes world?

very apt!

facts...

hate...

can someone please define this amophous 'racism'?

can someone please define this so called but hugely ambiguous 'structural racism'?

defining these 'facts' is key to this conversation moving forward...

but no one cares to even bother explaining themselves and these key terms, so the conversation just devolves into a shit flinging contest, ...full of 'hate'... ironically enough...

again...

carry on

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stunet Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 9:46am

No-one has to post under their name; it's a personal decision whether you do or not.

Calling someone racist when you haven't bothered to understand their point of view says more about the accuser.

Complex issues require thorough explanations, especially to doubters.

Few pages back someone said something about whitefellas taking a backseat to a blackfella problem. Sounded hopeful but the last few pages make it look more hopeless.

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sypkan Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 9:57am

or...

if 'advocates' would truly like some form of treaty or effective means from the uluru statemebt to get up - in a referendum - i emphasise referendum!

...something where 'most' people need to overwhelmingly support the premise...

then, I'd say you are going the wrong way about it...

again...

but carry on anyway...

(because perceived virtue is very addictive)

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 10:17am
AndyM wrote:

Mate you claim that the biggest problems are in remote communities but how have you quantified this?
I’ve asked you this before but you’ve dodged it.

Maaaatttteee firstly you have not replied to any of my questions, so to suggest i dodge your's is a complete joke.

I havent seen you ask this before and the very fact you ask goes to show how ignorant you are on the subject.

Im not wasting my time with you googling the topic to provide all stats and links which is vast to provide you with facts for you to then ignore my reply and not come back with any kind of rebuttal other than some silly meme or misquotation of me.

You can use google yourself and find articles and countless studies (use google scholar)

Key words: Indigenous remote communities with

Unemployment, education, illiteracy, housing, house overcrowding, healthcare, smoking rates, alcohol and drug abuse, life expediency rates, suicides rates, domestic violence, violence towards women, homicide rates, child abuse, rape, crime, prison rates, incarceration rates NT, WA ect.

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GuySmiley Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 10:19am

" ...Complex issues require thorough explanations, especially to doubters ....".

Agreed but I seriously doubt whether the SN forums is the place to discuss complex social issues based on the full SN archived history of this and like topics. The vast majority of contributions are written with an open mind and in good faith but as always its the lowest common denominator(s) that seriously ruin it.

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oxrox Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 10:30am

I have been in the city for a couple of days and haven't been reading this forum or any internet. Reading the last couple of pages where people are saying Western Australians would shoot aboriginal people if they could. WTF. I Iive in rural West OZ and that is one of the most obscene things I've heard. You have got to be kidding! Sure there might be the odd racist person here but the majority treat everyone as they wish to be treated. Treat someone like shit and you get it back no matter where you are from or skin colour.
This sort of stuff will only make matters worse. I was going to stay out of this thread but couldn't let that garbage slip by.

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oxrox Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 10:38am

You could call that crap racism against white West Australians.

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sypkan Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 10:58am
AndyM wrote:

Wonder what Bertrand would make of our post-truth society.

exactly what i thought!

and, the stuff some of the posters put on here is totally and unashamedly influenced by this stuff

then snuffy posts that vid without a single iota of irony it would ssem...

bloody hilarious, if it wasn't so tragic

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AndyM Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 12:02pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
AndyM wrote:

Mate you claim that the biggest problems are in remote communities but how have you quantified this?
I’ve asked you this before but you’ve dodged it.

Maaaatttteee firstly you have not replied to any of my questions, so to suggest i dodge your's is a complete joke.

I havent seen you ask this before and the very fact you ask goes to show how ignorant you are on the subject.

Im not wasting my time with you googling the topic to provide all stats and links which is vast to provide you with facts for you to then ignore my reply and not come back with any kind of rebuttal other than some silly meme or misquotation of me.

You can use google yourself and find articles and countless studies (use google scholar)

Key words: Indigenous remote communities with

Unemployment, education, illiteracy, housing, house overcrowding, healthcare, smoking rates, alcohol and drug abuse, life expediency rates, suicides rates, domestic violence, violence towards women, homicide rates, child abuse, rape, crime, prison rates, incarceration rates NT, WA ect.

Mate I'm sure there's plenty of stuff on issues in remote communities but how do you say it's so much worse than what's going on in towns like Fitzroy Crossing, Kal or any number of towns around Australia?

There're issues everywhere and they can all be traced back to colonisation and dispossession, however you clearly want to focus on remote communities so you can focus on your fixation that Indigenous culture is inherently shit and needs to be changed, preferably by moving Indigenous people to the cities where they can absorb the "superior white culture".

More milk in the coffee eh??

All the bad shit you listed happens more broadly, not just in remote communities, and trying to pass it off as something that happens most where "traditional culture is strongest" is a fucking lie and continues to paint you as a hard-core racist.
Not the casual, oops-a-daisy kind of racist but a considered, conscious, ugly-to-the-bone racist.

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 12:16pm

Whatever Andy you are clearly very narrow minded and lack the maturity to actually discuss the topic without belittling and name calling.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 12:21pm

Haha, dodge.
I’m here to discuss the topic but I don’t think you’re for real.

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 12:32pm

Im still waiting for you to answer my question about PNG.

Why does PNG have very similar problems to Indigenous Australian communities???

It can't be racism it cant be colonialism(not affected like Aust) so what is it?

Poverty?....why aren't the same problems seen elsewhere to same levels in similar countries over run by poverty?

Oh and as I've said I'm not suggesting at all that it has anything to do with skin colour, pigmentation, DNA or even race.

Ive answered a number of your questions but you won't (or should i say CANT) answer just one of mine.

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GuySmiley Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 2:40pm

hey @andym I see @info has asked you several times " Why does PNG have very similar problems to Indigenous Australian communities??? ...."

Just wondering whether our resident numbnuts has provided more than ill-informed opinion to back up his comparing PNG and AU like that? Links maybe?

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Paul McD Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 3:08pm
stunet wrote:

No-one has to post under their name; it's a personal decision whether you do or not.

Calling someone racist when you haven't bothered to understand their point of view says more about the accuser.

Complex issues require thorough explanations, especially to doubters.

Few pages back someone said something about whitefellas taking a backseat to a blackfella problem. Sounded hopeful but the last few pages make it look more hopeless.

Couldn't give a fuck what name someone posts under Stuart. Unless of course they accuse and disrespect a real person using their real name and make completely false and misleading comments about them to put them down.....without using their real name. On a public forum. On your forum. The one that Blowin used to try to spout untrue shit about me....urgh...that should have seen him immediately banned (again) under the rules that you have layed out.
If it's two anonymous' going at it.....who cares.

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Paul McD Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 3:10pm

But you'll happily delete my comments whenever i ask why 3 margs cams...with names. Nice censorship there. I'm sure this one will get deleted too.

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stunet Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 3:46pm

What is it with you and names?

I mean, how does anyone even know it's your real name anyway..?

Jesus...

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fitzroy-21 Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 3:57pm

I've got my money on that it is "bluediamond".

Didn't you throw the toys out of the cot and say you're out a few weeks ago?

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 4:29pm
GuySmiley wrote:

hey @andym I see @info has asked you several times " Why does PNG have very similar problems to Indigenous Australian communities??? ...."

Just wondering whether our resident numbnuts has provided more than ill-informed opinion to back up his comparing PNG and AU like that? Links maybe?

It seems you have been living under a rock but most people know that PNG has extremely high levels of domestic violence especially towards women and children, which is also one of the main problems seen in indigenous community's in particular remote communities .

In Australian indigenous communities, people often explain these high rates of violence with catch phrases like colonisation, intergenerational trauma, even racism.

Obviously in PNG you cant do this, so what's the explanation of these high rates of violence in PNG????

Just imagine this for a minute.

That the English decided PNG was the better place to settle and not Australia and history unfolded in PNG in the same way it did Australia with the majority of the population being non Papuan.

Now of course if this happened everyone would be explaining the violence seen in PNG papuan communities as a result of colonisation, intergenerational trauma, racism.

Which would obviously be incorrect.

And if Australia had only seen colonisation in a similar way to what PNG has, who's to say things would be any different in regards to levels of violence in indigenous communities.

The reason why Andy wont tackle this question is because he cant explain the cause's of violence in PNG and would have to admit it's cultural based, which then becomes problematic because if its cultural based in PNG whats to say its not culture based in Australia.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 4:29pm
GuySmiley wrote:

hey @andym I see @info has asked you several times " Why does PNG have very similar problems to Indigenous Australian communities??? ...."

Just wondering whether our resident numbnuts has provided more than ill-informed opinion to back up his comparing PNG and AU like that? Links maybe?

Nothing.
Nothing factual about issues in remote communities, nothing comparing remote to town communities, and nothing at all about the supposed similarities between PNG and Australia.
Just a thin, watery blurt so as to assert that black people are bad.

Waiter, more milk if you please!

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 4:33pm

Still waiting Andy or Guy, do you want to tackle the question?

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 4:34pm

First thing I found.

“ weak enforcement of laws criminalizing corruption and violence against women and children continued to foster a culture of impunity and lawlessness. Although a resource-rich country, almost 40 percent of its population lives in poverty, which, together with poor health care, barriers to education, corruption, and economic mismanagement, stunts PNG’s progress.”

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/papua-new-guinea

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GuySmiley Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 4:36pm
AndyM wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:

hey @andym I see @info has asked you several times " Why does PNG have very similar problems to Indigenous Australian communities??? ...."

Just wondering whether our resident numbnuts has provided more than ill-informed opinion to back up his comparing PNG and AU like that? Links maybe?

Nothing.
Nothing factual about issues in remote communities, nothing comparing remote to town communities, and nothing at all about the supposed similarities between PNG and Australia.
Just a thin, watery blurt so as to assert that black people are bad.

More milk please waiter!

I thought as much @andym, numbnuts probably hasn't been further west than the Newell and most certainly never to PNG, unfortunately for him I have and given his insipid attempt immediately above some darn good sport at his expense is about to be had... standby

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owgoodaquads Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 4:35pm

@indo-dreaming "...because if its cultural based in PNG whats to say its not culture based in Australia." At a guess, Aboriginal people.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 4:36pm

I can hear you ask so why isn’t it the same in other countries that have poverty.
Well you need to show me that it’s not the case because it’s your assertion.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 4:39pm
AndyM wrote:

First thing I found.

“ weak enforcement of laws criminalizing corruption and violence against women and children continued to foster a culture of impunity and lawlessness. Although a resource-rich country, almost 40 percent of its population lives in poverty, which, together with poor health care, barriers to education, corruption, and economic mismanagement, stunts PNG’s progress.”

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/papua-new-guinea

Oh please what tripe.

Countless countries have exactly the same issues including Indonesia but dont have he problems with violence seen in PNG.

Poverty doesn't cause people to be violent.

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palmymick Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 4:48pm

At the risk of stepping into a boot 'n' all shitfight, has anybody read any Thomas Sowell? I found his work very helpful in the area of race, culture and migration. I started with Black Rednecks and White Liberals, which was a real eye opener for me. Not so much a different point of view but an evidence based approach that is extremely well argued on a range of topics, several of which have been argued here. I'm getting through Race and Culture now. It's more detailed and a heavier read but also well worth the effort.

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palmymick Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 4:49pm

And no, I haven't read the whole thread. That would be like wanking with a cheese grater...slightly amusing but mostly painful!

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 4:53pm
palmymick wrote:

At the risk of stepping into a boot 'n' all shitfight, has anybody read any Thomas Sowell? I found his work very helpful in the area of race, culture and migration. I started with Black Rednecks and White Liberals, which was a real eye opener for me. Not so much a different point of view but an evidence based approach that is extremely well argued on a range of topics, several of which have been argued here. I'm getting through Race and Culture now. It's more detailed and a heavier read but also well worth the effort.

Ive listened to many of his interviews and talks/thoughts on things, is been a little while so I cant remember exactly what he had to say other than what he said generally made a lot of sense and remember thinking he was a super smart wise guy.

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Paul McD Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 5:14pm
stunet wrote:

What is it with you and names?

I mean, how does anyone even know it's your real name anyway..?

Jesus...

Stu i'll pay you the respect you deserve and not get into a tit for tat on this issue. Happy to let it go. My point has been made. I really do hope one day i track blowin down. Fella can't hide forever like he does.
As for the comments i posted earlier....i did it precisely knowing it would be provocative to a very certain few. And viola! Like magic, they appeared...being real strong blokes!!
And as for the same crew (the three stooges i believe they're also known as?)....firstly, i'm happy these crew despise me on here. I'd be very dissappointed with my life if people like this liked and agreed with me.
Secondly, well, i do live over here in WA, i do travel extensively, i have lived in alot of remote towns over here, and i've met alot of different graziers and land owners.. the 'respected' townsfolk you might say. I think it's important that those sheltered on the East Coast from the reality of Black and White Australia should have some insight into that.
Plenty more to add to the topic but no more picking on Swellnets pet.

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soggydog Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 5:23pm
indo-dreaming wrote:

Im still waiting for you to answer my question about PNG.

Why does PNG have very similar problems to Indigenous Australian communities???

It can't be racism it cant be colonialism(not affected like Aust) so what is it?

Poverty?....why aren't the same problems seen elsewhere to same levels in similar countries over run by poverty?

Oh and as I've said I'm not suggesting at all that it has anything to do with skin colour, pigmentation, DNA or even race.

Ive answered a number of your questions but you won't (or should i say CANT) answer just one of mine.

Just jumping in here. Contrary to your opinions household financial stress is known to be one of the strongest factors contributing to domestic violence. So is poverty a driver of domestic violence. Most definitely yes. Regardless of where your from or what colour your skin may be

Just to clarify Indo. Do you think, given your previous posts elude that, aboriginal men and PNG men have a culture that is more predisposed to physical and sexual violence toward women.
And that any reference to 200+ year’s of marginalisation is, and I’m quoting you, lazy, cliche and or irrelevant.

Yes or no will suffice.

Then I might have another one for you.

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AndyM Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 5:24pm

I think Eugenics Dreaming’s views have been made very clear.

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GuySmiley Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 5:30pm

Before I deal with @info-numbnuts later on his PNG/AU theorising does anybody else see the parallels in what he is proposing and the way Bush treated the black neighbourhoods and residents of New Orleans during and after Hurricane Katrina? Get dem out of the burbs and solve dat problem?

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 5:31pm

“ I really do hope one day i track blowin down. Fella can't hide forever like he does”

All well and good to make these comments in the heat of the moment when you’re all fired up, but honestly what would you actually do?
Say you’re having a chat to a bloke in a beach car park somewhere and it came to be that you were chatting to blowin… what next? Punch him? Over stuff said on an Internet forum??

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Paul McD Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 5:36pm

haha. Come on now Goofy. Tea and biscuits and a leisurely mal ride at his favourite beachie. Just a couple of 'blokes' having a good laugh. Alllll gooooood.

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goofyfoot Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 5:46pm

You’d hate it if blowin was a real goer :-0

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Paul McD Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 5:51pm

Not gonna add any more fuel to this one Goofy. Thanks for trying though ;-)
Back to the topic...

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Paul McD Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 5:56pm

A good read re. Papua and it's colonial ties with Australia.
Might interest a few.
https://theconversation.com/png-marks-40-years-of-independence-still-fee...
Another good one regarding how colonialism and domestic abuse against women around the world are tied in together...
https://theconversation.com/how-colonialism-is-a-major-cause-of-domestic...

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goofyfoot Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 5:57pm

Ha, topic was forgotten about on these pages long ago. At least you’re trying but..

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Paul McD Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 6:14pm

True that!! Good on ya Goofy. Hope you're surviving the cold over there. My granny said it's bloody freezing!!

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soggydog Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 8:02pm
Paul McD wrote:

A good read re. Papua and it's colonial ties with Australia.
Might interest a few.
https://theconversation.com/png-marks-40-years-of-independence-still-fee...
Another good one regarding how colonialism and domestic abuse against women around the world are tied in together...
https://theconversation.com/how-colonialism-is-a-major-cause-of-domestic...

Hey man, don’t confuse Indo’s opinions and hypothesis with the presentation of facts.
And for the record, I did answer the PNG question.
Can’t wait for what GS has in store

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seeds Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022 at 8:40pm

There’s something like 20 women (google it mate) already killed by partners this year in Australia. Most perpetrators are not from PNG or isolated aboriginal communities. Seems us whities have a cultural problem also Indo.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 9:13am
seeds wrote:

There’s something like 20 women (google it mate) already killed by partners this year in Australia. Most perpetrators are not from PNG or isolated aboriginal communities. Seems us whities have a cultural problem also Indo.

Yes all society's around the world have these issues but what do you think the levels are in Indgenious communities compared to non indigenous?(2023 non indigenous includes anyone else not just whites)

Double? triple? Ten times the rate?

Go google it mate and get back to me.

soggydog's picture
soggydog's picture
soggydog Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 9:23am
indo-dreaming wrote:
seeds wrote:

There’s something like 20 women (google it mate) already killed by partners this year in Australia. Most perpetrators are not from PNG or isolated aboriginal communities. Seems us whities have a cultural problem also Indo.

Yes all society's around the world have these issues but what do you think the levels are in Indgenious communities compared to non indigenous?(2023 non indigenous includes anyone else not just whites)

Double? triple? Ten times the rate?

Go google it mate and get back to me.

Are you suggesting that death from domestic violence is somehow double to ten times the rate in indigenous communities than in non indigenous communities in Australia with no supporting evidence.

Seems the Indo dreaming house has a bit of a Racism problem. You’ve already exposed that your wife when with other Indonesians likes to engage in a bit of racial vilification. And you quite freely engage in a bit publicly within this small surfing community.
You really can’t be taken too seriously.

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 11:06am

Long-term readers of these forums would know we (Swellnet) have all been here before.

Andrew Bolt's 18c court case (2011), Adam Goodes calling out racism (2013), the Urulu Statemnet of the Heart (2017) and this topic of Aboriginals living on country first visited by PM Tony Abbott (2015) and periodically discussed here since.

The commonalities of all these debates are the right wing media and their commentate and here in SN forums Indo-Dreaming (ID) stridently holding the ideological line not once backing down notwithstanding thousands of words / perhaps 100s of comments mostly written in good faith highlighting that his simplistic approach to complex social issues is not helpful and potentially harmful. Along the way some of these debates have become heated causing several people to be either banned from the forums or to walk away in disgust because of utter frustration at ID's intransigent positioning.

ID's latest theorising links the living standards of Aboriginal mobs living on country and domestic violence to similar issues with PNG communities. Of course these aren't his original ideas at all they belong to 2-3 disaffected Aboriginals with political leanings to the right who represent no-one other then themselves because their mobs have disowned them.

ID's view is if only these mobs would leave their country life would be better. I've discussed this above so I'm not repeating myself again but 200 years of dispossession tells these mobs to stay put.

ID has linked this issue to violence against women and children in PNG but when asked for real evidence has none. NONE.

There is no doubt PNG can be a violent place to live and even visit. Westerners need to be careful where they go and how they act. A culturally strong country where land is still held tightly by traditional owners. As a tourist this was all explained, the notion of retribution remains despite western laws and courts for all who live there. ID's theory is nonsense - you do wrong either cultural or western law will catch up with you.

Thinking about this I last night I remembered many of the wonderfully kindhearted people I've worked with and known in the past (RIP) and how generous and humble they were in the face of a lifetime of bigotry. In particular I remembered their sense of humour and laughter and how positive they were for the future.

I don't intend to waste more time here on IDs nonsense and if the SNs archives are any guide none of us should. The future ..........

https://ulurustatement.org/the-statement/

Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 11:12am

Epic comment Guysmiley. Put into words what i struggle to. Thanks.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 12:45pm
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
seeds wrote:

There’s something like 20 women (google it mate) already killed by partners this year in Australia. Most perpetrators are not from PNG or isolated aboriginal communities. Seems us whities have a cultural problem also Indo.

Yes all society's around the world have these issues but what do you think the levels are in Indgenious communities compared to non indigenous?(2023 non indigenous includes anyone else not just whites)

Double? triple? Ten times the rate?

Go google it mate and get back to me.

Are you suggesting that death from domestic violence is somehow double to ten times the rate in indigenous communities than in non indigenous communities in Australia with no supporting evidence.

Seems the Indo dreaming house has a bit of a Racism problem. You’ve already exposed that your wife when with other Indonesians likes to engage in a bit of racial vilification. And you quite freely engage in a bit publicly within this small surfing community.
You really can’t be taken too seriously.

"In Australia, Aboriginal women are 17 times more likely to die from homicide compared to non-Indigenous women

."https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/nitv-news/article/2020/02/05/why-isnt-nation...

"Mortality

Between 2000 and 2004, there were 150 deaths due to assault among Indigenous Australians in the four jurisdictions.

Indigenous females and males were nearly ten and nine times more likely to die due to assault as non-Indigenous females and males, respectively.

The death rate was highest among people aged 35–44 years."

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/indigenous-australians/family-violence-i...

In regard to domestic violence:

"FactCheck Q&A: are Indigenous women 34-80 times more likely than average to experience violence?"

"Aboriginal women here are 37 times more likely to be hospitalised than non-Aboriginal women for non-fatal family violence-related assaults. In the Northern Territory the rate of hospitalisation is up to 86 times higher for Aboriginal women. In central Australia, this figure is 95 times more likely for Aboriginal women"

"Verdict
The available evidence on domestic and family violence suggest Marcia Langton is broadly correct. There is evidence for the higher end of the claim, including anecdotal evidence and media reports."

https://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-are-indigenous-women-34-80-t...

Might reply latter to you Guy, but many of the things ive said are not just supported by those three, there has even been books written about the subject of the cultural roots of indigenous violence, many of the things i believe in (not all) are also things Peter Sutton believes in like policy based on need not race, i recall reading him even talking about the high levels of violence pre colonisation. (of which there is much evidence)