The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond's picture
bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 12:36pm

17 x

a staggering statistic

well they did ask for it...

soggydog's picture
soggydog's picture
soggydog Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 1:51pm

Nationally Domestic violence affects 1 in 3 non indigenous women and 1 in 2 indigenous women. That’s nation wide not specific states or communities.

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 2:09pm

I call bullshit on those statistics.

You really expect me to believe that 33% of all Australian women are getting beat up by their partners ? Ridiculous.

batfink's picture
batfink's picture
batfink Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 2:35pm

Dammit, have to agree with DSDS.

But domestic violence is much more widespread than is easily quantified.

But these statistics defy rational analysis. I suspect I know why these figures are so high, and it’s not because they are credible.

I’ve asked friends of mine in recent years. - “have you ever hit a woman, ever, in any circumstances, or do you know any man who you reasonably suspect of hitting a woman.” Not one of them has.

Now I recognise that my circumstances and friends are very different to other parts of Australia and even other parts of Sydney or Central Coast. But 1 in 3, and 1 in 2 for indigenous women?

Treat those stats with some scepticism.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 2:47pm

maybe you guys just need to update your understandings of 'domestic violence' to contemporary 'perspectives'...

self serving, broad sweeping (with a one way brush), all encompassing, agenda driving, contemporary perspectives...

yeh, bullshit basically

soggydog's picture
soggydog's picture
soggydog Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 2:43pm
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:

I call bullshit on those statistics.

You really expect me to believe that 33% of all Australian women are getting beat up by their partners ? Ridiculous.

2004 survey,, pretty much first thing to come up under a google search I would not make shit up like that. Remember that domestic violence doesn’t always have to be physical by definition.

soggydog's picture
soggydog's picture
soggydog Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 3:05pm

The main part of the discussion was what factors drive these outcomes for aboriginal women.
Indo has presented this phenomenon as part of aboriginal culture and it would appear to dismiss other factors associated with colonisation and marginalisation of communities. Stronger cultural ties due to isolated environments seems to be one of his arguments that exacerbates the problem.
The stats are pretty confronting

seeds's picture
seeds's picture
seeds Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 3:32pm

That was my point to Indo. It’s more prevalent in indigenous communities but it is also bad in ours. Therefore it can’t be because of their culture because it exists in our culture. And this bollocks argument that it because of patriarchal society. Our society has been patriarchal for eons and was up until a few decades ago. Still is in many ways.

soggydog's picture
soggydog's picture
soggydog Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 3:49pm

I just read the link Indo provided.

The scummy little racist failed to highlight one particular paragraph that was most important to this conversation. It was just before the “Verdict”

I’m quoting from the article Indo linked above.

“Many accept that the impact of colonisation, ongoing trauma from displacement of indigenous people from their traditional lands and Kinship Groups. The removal of children from families and ongoing negative relationships between indigenous people and the criminal justice system have all contributed to heightened levels of violence.
For others the low expectations that mainstream society has for indigenous Australians, the high rates of unemployment and poverty and substance misuse are more likely explanations.”

So as we can see, there are many factors that Indo seems to have dismissed even when they are part of articles that he presents as supporting evidence. No where does it state that these rates of violence are associated with indigenous culture in Australia

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 4:14pm

Meanwhile, ol' Eugenics Dreaming wants to attribute Indigenous issues purely to their culture.

Charming.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 4:53pm
soggydog wrote:

I just read the link Indo provided.

The scummy little racist failed to highlight one particular paragraph that was most important to this conversation. It was just before the “Verdict”

I’m quoting from the article Indo linked above.

“Many accept that the impact of colonisation, ongoing trauma from displacement of indigenous people from their traditional lands and Kinship Groups. The removal of children from families and ongoing negative relationships between indigenous people and the criminal justice system have all contributed to heightened levels of violence.
For others the low expectations that mainstream society has for indigenous Australians, the high rates of unemployment and poverty and substance misuse are more likely explanations.”

So as we can see, there are many factors that Indo seems to have dismissed even when they are part of articles that he presents as supporting evidence. No where does it state that these rates of violence are associated with indigenous culture in Australia

Obviously the links were to prove that there is high levels of domestic violence and deaths in indigenous women because Seeds was trying to paint non indigenous Australian domestic violence and death rates as high.(or similar to indigenous women rates)

And then this complete and utter tosser (you)

Said "Are you suggesting that death from domestic violence is somehow double to ten times the rate in indigenous communities than in non indigenous communities in Australia with no supporting evidence."

And went on calling me racist for even suggesting rates of violence or deaths were higher.

Which i then showed you with supporting links that yes, Indigenous women have a 34 to 95 times higher chance of hospitalisation and 9 to 17 times higher homicide rate than non indigenous women.

Any normally person would be eating some humble pie and even be apologising, but no the A grade absolute tosser you are is now trying to cling onto another non relevant aspect of the article. that had nothing to do with the point.

Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 4:54pm

Centring settler colonialism in rural Australian
multicultures: race, place and local identities
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/1369183X.2020.1800447
Annnndddd....
Black African nurses battle racism in rural Australian workplaces, study finds
https://anmj.org.au/black-african-nurses-battle-racism-in-rural-australi...
Seems you don't have to be an Indigenous Australian. You just have to be black. Apologies for yesterdays comments not being accurate.

soggydog's picture
soggydog's picture
soggydog Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 5:15pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
soggydog wrote:

I just read the link Indo provided.

The scummy little racist failed to highlight one particular paragraph that was most important to this conversation. It was just before the “Verdict”

I’m quoting from the article Indo linked above.

“Many accept that the impact of colonisation, ongoing trauma from displacement of indigenous people from their traditional lands and Kinship Groups. The removal of children from families and ongoing negative relationships between indigenous people and the criminal justice system have all contributed to heightened levels of violence.
For others the low expectations that mainstream society has for indigenous Australians, the high rates of unemployment and poverty and substance misuse are more likely explanations.”

So as we can see, there are many factors that Indo seems to have dismissed even when they are part of articles that he presents as supporting evidence. No where does it state that these rates of violence are associated with indigenous culture in Australia

Obviously the links were to prove that there is high levels of domestic violence and deaths in indigenous women because Seeds was trying to paint non indigenous Australian domestic violence and death rates as high.(or similar to indigenous women rates)

And then this complete and utter tosser (you)

Said "Are you suggesting that death from domestic violence is somehow double to ten times the rate in indigenous communities than in non indigenous communities in Australia with no supporting evidence."

And went on calling me racist for even suggesting rates of violence or deaths were higher.

Which i then showed you with supporting links that yes, Indigenous women have a 34 to 95 times higher chance of hospitalisation and 9 to 17 times higher homicide rate than non indigenous women.

Any normally person would be eating some humble pie and even be apologising, but no the A grade absolute tosser you are is now trying to cling onto another non relevant aspect of the article. that had nothing to do with the point.

You tied it all to aboriginal culture, dismissing the factors mentioned in the article you presented to support your statistics. I humoured you and read the article, only to find you omitted a very important paragraph relevant to the conversation we where having.
You where strongly presenting the argument that problems of domestic assault, violence all the way to peadophilia where constructs of indigenous culture. The counter argument was these factors where also symptomatic of colonisation and marginalisation. Which you strongly dismissed, even referring to the premise as cliche and lazy.

Again you are now back peddling, trying to cover your arse. But you are a pretty stupid shit cunt. And we see you.

Racism is a learnt behaviour, you’ve got two kids eh’?

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 5:29pm
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
soggydog wrote:

I just read the link Indo provided.

The scummy little racist failed to highlight one particular paragraph that was most important to this conversation. It was just before the “Verdict”

I’m quoting from the article Indo linked above.

“Many accept that the impact of colonisation, ongoing trauma from displacement of indigenous people from their traditional lands and Kinship Groups. The removal of children from families and ongoing negative relationships between indigenous people and the criminal justice system have all contributed to heightened levels of violence.
For others the low expectations that mainstream society has for indigenous Australians, the high rates of unemployment and poverty and substance misuse are more likely explanations.”

So as we can see, there are many factors that Indo seems to have dismissed even when they are part of articles that he presents as supporting evidence. No where does it state that these rates of violence are associated with indigenous culture in Australia

Obviously the links were to prove that there is high levels of domestic violence and deaths in indigenous women because Seeds was trying to paint non indigenous Australian domestic violence and death rates as high.(or similar to indigenous women rates)

And then this complete and utter tosser (you)

Said "Are you suggesting that death from domestic violence is somehow double to ten times the rate in indigenous communities than in non indigenous communities in Australia with no supporting evidence."

And went on calling me racist for even suggesting rates of violence or deaths were higher.

Which i then showed you with supporting links that yes, Indigenous women have a 34 to 95 times higher chance of hospitalisation and 9 to 17 times higher homicide rate than non indigenous women.

Any normally person would be eating some humble pie and even be apologising, but no the A grade absolute tosser you are is now trying to cling onto another non relevant aspect of the article. that had nothing to do with the point.

You tied it all to aboriginal culture, dismissing the factors mentioned in the article you presented to support your statistics. I humoured you and read the article, only to find you omitted a very important paragraph relevant to the conversation we where having.
You where strongly presenting the argument that problems of domestic assault, violence all the way to peadophilia where constructs of indigenous culture. The counter argument was these factors where also symptomatic of colonisation and marginalisation. Which you strongly dismissed, even referring to the premise as cliche and lazy.

Again you are now back peddling, trying to cover your arse. But you are a pretty stupid shit cunt. And we see you.

Racism is a learnt behaviour, you’ve got two kids eh’?

Sorry but nowhere have i suggested or mentioned peadophilia.

Anyway it's pretty clear that you dont like being proven completely wrong, so now clutching at straws.

If you didn't want to look like such an ignorant fool and be proven completely wrong, all you had to do first before commenting is spend 5 seconds googling first like i suggested.

soggydog's picture
soggydog's picture
soggydog Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 5:51pm

I did, your statistics where on point, but like I said before, the conversation was about culture vs external factors such as colonisation and marginalisation.
The article you provided supported your position on statistics. But also supported my original argument on cause.
But it seems you just want to “win” the argument so you zig and zag now statistics are the argument not that aboriginal men have a culture predisposed to rape and violence. Which was your original premise. Remember PNG and the comparisons of violence and sexual assault being culture.
So call me a fool or whatever else, at least I’m not a blatant racist shit cunt….like you.

Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 6:17pm

To be fair, Indo does write some pretty wise stuff sometimes. I'm putting this one straight to the top shelf and heeding it....along with his other 2 stooge mates and the 2 or 3 hanger on's who get 'offended' on here when the conversation hits a little too close to home and their own dubious beliefs and behaviours. . Cheers for the wise words Indo!!
@Indodreaming wrote "If you or others want me to post here less it's probably wise just to ignore me,"

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 7:09pm

Here’s a question for Bluediamond who first established this thread. He stated in his initial essay that he believes 50% of real estate should be repatriated to the descendants of indigenous Australians who were dispossessed of the land.

The same bloke also finds it disgusting that settler Australians attain an unfair advantage in society and perpetuate systemic racism by bequeathing the land they own to their children and grand children. Land which was stolen from indigenous Australians.

His quote :

“Also alot of these older generational Australians in more of the regional areas of Australia have had land and assets passed down from generation to generation. So there's a level of privilege accompanying their belief systems.
And when you follow how that land was acquired in the first place and the punishment that was dished out to the original Indigenous inhabitants that could no longer live off their own land “

Assuming Bluediamond has living grandparents and parents and that they own property, Bluediamond may well stand to inherit this unearned wealth merely as consequence of birthright and being born into inter generational ownership of stolen land.

My question is this : Does Bluediamond intend to return every single piece of stolen real estate to its rightful indigenous owners when he inherits this property on the passing of his parents/ grandparents?

I can’t see how he can avoid refusing ownership of this real estate as would be blood on his hands and he’s obviously way too virtuous to ever live with himself if he profited from this cursed inheritance.

A moral conundrum!

Especially if Bluediamond is not capable enough of a person to secure possession of real estate through his own means.

Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 7:07pm

Which part of if you choose to interact with me on here then post with your real name don't you understand blowin?
Until then.....

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 7:16pm

So you’re not handing over the keys to Granny’s / Mum and Dad’s house to the local indigenous when they pass?

That’s stolen land bloke. You can’t accept that surely? You’d be perpetuating white privilege and systemic racism.

The entire premise of this thread is your personal desire to see reparations made to dispossessed indigenous Australians and you specifically mentioned you favour direct return of real estate ownership.

You specified your disgust at the continuing dispossession which our hereditary culture enables.

Surely you would never consider taking possession of this land for yourself?

Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 7:18pm
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 7:20pm
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 7:22pm
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 7:37pm

"People who are racist think they have go more support in society than they do. If you don't say anything they'll continue to think that. If you do, they start to reassess," says Prof Yin Paradies from Deakin University, who helped create Everyday Racism, a free mobile phone app that allows you to slip into the shoes of, among other roles, an Aboriginal man.'

Yep. You heard it hear first folks! There's an app that allows you to experience what it's like to step into the boots of a fellow human from a different background. I reckon this might benefit a few on here ;-)
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.atn21.everydayracism
Give it a crack! What have you got to lose?

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 7:37pm

It’s pretty obvious what your deal is Bluediamond.

You want to point the finger at others and decry them as racists as you believe this makes you appear virtuous in comparison. You’ve shown that you will stoop to any level to achieve this end including telling blatant and disgraceful lies.

Such as :

West Australians wish they could shoot indigenous people.
White Australians want a society segregated from indigenous Australians.
Most older Australians are extreme racists.

To be honest, it makes my skin crawl to even repeat your hate inciting bullshit but it serves a purpose of reiterating your desperate need to make others look worse so that you look better.

You describe how you managed to get to adulthood and avoid developing any knowledge of indigenous culture. This must have required an incredible lack of curiosity and an impressive depth of ignorance. Now you live in a town which has virtually no indigenous presence.

In fact , apart from trying to appoint blame and shame on others, I can’t see a single shred of evidence that you’re committed to anything but virtue signalling and shrill insults of others.

In other words- All mouth and no trousers.

velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 7:40pm

I like the implications of that (edit: post above on returning land) DSDS. Imagine, if everywhere in the world, the everyday people had their land (commons) returned to them... Most of us wouldn't be stressed over mortgage rates!

Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 7:44pm

Blowin ya mong, put your name to your posts and i'll actually read them. Til then...
And to finish on a happy note for tonights postings...
How's this legend.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-02/uncle-herb-patten-entertaining-gu...

oxrox's picture
oxrox's picture
oxrox Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 7:48pm
Paul McD wrote:

And when dealing with racists, here's a guide
https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/people/how-to-deal-wi...

Ok so i read that. I want to hear your comments on this. One a quote from the above, one a quoted comment from you. First from your article and I've selected just one for reference.
Commenting on First Nations Peoples lateness by saying they've "probably gone walkabout" is quite rightly perceived as casual racism in that article.
Re older West Australians living on the land "The only difference is they're not allowed to shoot indigenous people anymore. I guarantee these types would if they could"
What's going on there?

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 7:52pm

Someone posting under “Paul McD” complaining that other people post anonymously.

You cannot exaggerate the stupidity of some people when you try to describe it.

Paul McDermatitis?

Paul McDonald?

Paul McDrongo?

Here’s a heads up genius - Unless Paul McD is your real name , you too are posting anonymously.

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 8:01pm

Bluediamond’s entire fifty million word soapbox tantrum in two sentences:

“I think everyone else is horribly racist because they won’t return the stolen land to indigenous Australians. Although I would never do so myself “

soggydog's picture
soggydog's picture
soggydog Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 8:16pm
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:

So you’re not handing over the keys to Granny’s / Mum and Dad’s house to the local indigenous when they pass?

That’s stolen land bloke. You can’t accept that surely? You’d be perpetuating white privilege and systemic racism.

The entire premise of this thread is your personal desire to see reparations made to dispossessed indigenous Australians and you specifically mentioned you favour direct return of real estate ownership.

You specified your disgust at the continuing dispossession which our hereditary culture enables.

Surely you would never consider taking possession of this land for yourself?

Just playing devils advocate here, not trying to start anything. But yeah there is a family who doesn’t get granny’s land handed down to them……..because they where violently dispossessed by colonial settlers.
Just another angle

Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 9:03pm

Creepy stalkers at it again.
Paul McDiarmid. Would you like my address and phone number?
Put it on here many times. You stalked it so you should know it.
At least indo admitted to having a stalk. Credit to that!
Why are you so scared to post your name blowin. Are you saying there's actually 2 of you?? The anonymous online troll..and.....
I honestly think you need help. Or at least to own your comments.

Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 9:05pm

And i didn't read the other 'big question' you posted because, like i said, no name, no discussion. Very simple. That's what you'll get for stalking me online and saying very hurtful and vilifying things against me on here that aren't true. Your a half man blowin. At best.

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 9:38pm

I don’t stalk you boy. I’ve got zero interest in yourself or anyone like you. I know too much about you already without asking. If you want the entire world to know every detail of your wretched existence then good luck but I don’t want to have a thing to do with you, let alone go looking for more under my own steam. I’d sooner crawl through a blocked sewer pipe.

I’m not sure you even know what stalking means bloke. You post your personal details and name and every other bit of knowledge anyone could know about you online yourself. ….whether people want to know or not . Then you get emotional because they know these things.

You’re like the bloke who goes down the beach wearing nothing but a raincoat, who walks up in front of some innocent strangers , rips open the raincoat and accuses the appalled beachgoers of being perverts who want to stare at his dick.

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 9:22pm

Of course you read the question. You avoid answering because you’ve got no reply.

Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 9:35pm

Kill your online name and embrace the real you.
Kill yourself Blowin!! Dudesweetdude. Crocodile cacharadon or whatever that other one was. (not literally of course, definitely don't mean that.... just metaphorically). Name you!! Imagine the freedom. Fly with me Blowie. Freedom.
If you're as top a bloke (and maybe you actually are offline) then why not put your name to yourself? I really don't know what you're afraid of. Consider it liberation and freedom.
Consider me your saviour blowie. Maybe some good can come out of this whole messy online spate we've had over the last 3 years.
And we can get back to the topic. Because until you do, i have no discussions other than this one to have with you.
And i really do want to keep contributing to this thread that i started because it's important to me, without having to deal with this...err....mess.

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 10:03pm

.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Thursday, 2 Jun 2022 at 10:36pm

I'll delete that

I dont want to out anyone

but funny things afoot with you two

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Friday, 3 Jun 2022 at 8:17am
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:

It’s pretty obvious what your deal is Bluediamond.

You want to point the finger at others and decry them as racists as you believe this makes you appear virtuous in comparison. You’ve shown that you will stoop to any level to achieve this end including telling blatant and disgraceful lies.

Such as :

West Australians wish they could shoot indigenous people.
White Australians want a society segregated from indigenous Australians.
Most older Australians are extreme racists.

To be honest, it makes my skin crawl to even repeat your hate inciting bullshit but it serves a purpose of reiterating your desperate need to make others look worse so that you look better.

You describe how you managed to get to adulthood and avoid developing any knowledge of indigenous culture. This must have required an incredible lack of curiosity and an impressive depth of ignorance. Now you live in a town which has virtually no indigenous presence.

In fact , apart from trying to appoint blame and shame on others, I can’t see a single shred of evidence that you’re committed to anything but virtue signalling and shrill insults of others.

In other words- All mouth and no trousers.

It's also clearly aimed at being a cheap shut down tactic.

Obviously BD wouldn't hand over any inherited property to an indigenous trust or similar as 99.9999% of people wouldn't, and I'm sure if he doesn't already he would be happy to own property in Australia.

Talk is basically pretty cheap.

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley Friday, 3 Jun 2022 at 8:41am

Keeping it on topic the high court Chief Justice that presided over the Mabo Case died earlier this week.

That case and Wik Case established in law that terra nullius was a lie and allowed land rights claims to be heard by the courts.

Just like the current debate(s) no prises for guessing which side of politics supported/opposed these developments but the nation did move on without the sky falling in.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM Friday, 3 Jun 2022 at 9:06am

And today is Mabo Day - 30 years since the High Court overturned the legal concept of "terra nullius".

UserMick's picture
UserMick's picture
UserMick Friday, 3 Jun 2022 at 10:36am

Deane, Gaudron and McHugh, JJ. disagreed with Brennan, J. to the extent that His Honour held that native title could be extinguished by a clear legislative intent of the Crown without the need to pay compensation ..........

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Saturday, 4 Jun 2022 at 1:49pm

Another recent article, and no i dont subscribe to the Australian (not that there would be anything wrong with doing so) cut and pasted from https://www.facebook.com/anthonywodillon/

By Amos Aikman

Women in the bush are trapped in an epidemic of extreme violence brought about by inter¬generational abuse and disadvantage and a culture that protects perpetrators before victims, ¬according to one of the Northern Territory’s most senior judges.

In an exclusive interview with The Weekend Australian, NT ¬Supreme Court judge ¬Judith Kelly said the problems were so severe that in some cases women who had tried to escape had been effectively kidnapped and dragged to tiny outstations to face beatings and rape.

Others had endured years of often drunken, jealous violence inflicted by “hopeless” men, only to be killed in the company of ¬bystanders who did not try to help.

Justice Kelly, one of the Territory’s nine top judicial officers, shared her observations after handling scores of such cases since 2009. Sitting judges rarely give ¬interviews. She broke down during hers. “I just want people to know what’s happening to Aboriginal women,” Justice Kelly said.

“I’m absolutely sure that if ¬people knew, they would care … so if people find out what’s happening, and they do care, maybe something can be done about it.”

She also spoke out after reading The Australian’s three-part ¬series on Ruby, an Indigenous woman who was sexually abused and beaten by her father in the -remote community of Yuendumu and then forced to flee the town after he was jailed.

“When I read that, I was shocked by how shocked I wasn’t,” she said. “Because it’s a horrendous story, but we see that every day.”

Roughly a quarter of the ¬criminal cases before the NT ¬Supreme Court are serious crimes of violence against Aboriginal women. Many more are dealt with by the Local Court.

Aboriginal people represent about one-third of the NT population but the overwhelming ¬majority of its prisoners. “It is genuinely tragic that there are vast numbers of Aboriginal men in prison,” Justice Kelly said. “The mirror image of that is the vast numbers of Aboriginal women in the morgue and in the hospitals. It’s a total epidemic of domestic ¬violence.”

She praised the Black Lives Matter movement’s focus on ¬allegations of excessive use of force by authorities, but questioned whether those ought to be the top priority.

Police have fatally shot two Aboriginal men in the NT since 2000: Kumanjayi Walker in Yuendumu in 2019 and another man in Wadeye in 2002.

“In that same period, 52 Aboriginal women have been the victims of homicide, mostly by their partners,” she said.

“I’m not saying that the two shootings don’t matter. But that level of violence against women, in a non-Aboriginal community in like Sydney or Melbourne, there would be a huge outcry.”

She said claims of racism in the justice system were “very unhelpful” and false. “It’s not racism that’s doing any of these things; it’s the violence of the men against the women,” she said.

“It’s simplistic, and it trivialises real racism, which is quite a poisonous attitude of mind.”

Justice Kelly argued that Aboriginal women were being made to bear the “absolutely dreadful” brunt of society’s failure to fix problems such as unemployment, passive welfare dependency, ¬substance abuse and inter-generational trauma.

Those women were confronted in their communities by culture not just of silence but of actively silencing victims and were usually powerless to help themselves.

“These are not self-destructive women; these are women who can’t escape from a terrible situation,” she said. “These are not people who are complicit in their own victimhood. These people are doing their best to protect themselves, and they can’t.”

Her remarks partly mirror those of then coroner Greg ¬Cavanagh in 2016, who, when handing down his findings into the deaths of two Aboriginal women, called domestic violence “a contagion” that was “literally out of control”.

“The circumstances of these two deaths … reveal the stark ¬reality that the criminal justice system fails to protect women from domestic violence,” he said. “That is to say, policing and punitive sentences do not provide an answer to stopping the violence.”

Kwementyaye Murphy was ¬viciously beaten by her husband in December 2014, while Kwementyaye McCormack bled to death from a stab wound three months later. Both suffered through years of abuse at the hands of their partners but had generally been unwilling to co-operate with police in having their husbands charged.

Justice Kelly said the typical ¬offender who came before her was a man with a long history of ¬assaulting the same woman and who eventually caused her serious harm, triggering an ¬appearance before a higher court.

“You get young men who are essentially hopeless; they are never going to get a job; they don’t have a chance of status; they lack self-esteem,” she said. “They take it out on women, mostly when they’re ‘jealousing’ and drunk. And it goes on and on and on, and there’s that level of tolerance that allows it to continue.”

Last year, she took the unusual step of allowing cameras into her courtroom to film the sentencing of Samuel Edwards, a violent serial offender who bludgeoned and stabbed his partner to death during a drunken house party in Palmerston in 2019.

Five people were present for part or all of the “prolonged, savage and brutal” ¬attack. Neighbours also heard sounds of distress. None of them called the police.

In her interview, Justice Kelly also highlighted the story of Patricia, which The Weekend Australian reports today. Patricia faced years of sometimes “animal like” attacks from her “ugly” and “bad” partner, Gary Andy. On one ¬occasion, he beat her with a food grater while she was holding their baby, leaving the infant drenched in its mother’s blood.

Andy had an 18-page rap sheet before he faced Justice Kelly’s court. He continued threatening Patricia even after being arrested, calling her phone 158 times from jail over 12 weeks until he intimidated her into changing her story.

Justice Kelly said the causes of violence against Aboriginal women could not be remedied with a little extra money or a new program. She said there was also a cultural component.

“The evidence is so clear that it can’t really be denied – of a tendency in some communities to prioritise the interests of male offenders over the interests of female victims,” she said. “There is not just a culture of ¬silence; there is an active silencing or attempt to silence Aboriginal complainants, women who have been the victims of violence from men.”

Traditional Aboriginal culture appeared to have some elements of “men having the right to discipline their wives … and a cultural component of revenge”.

“Revenge used to be a lot more formalised, standing for spearing and the like, but now often consists of a carload of men going to somebody’s camp and beating up anybody they can find there,” Justice Kelly said. “And if they happen to kill somebody during that process, then there’s a blood feud.

Offenders often did not believe they had erred, even after sentencing. Justice Kelly mentioned one who claimed “men can hit wives” and whitefellas had “no right to change that”. She also recounted a remark by a woman who broke her niece’s leg. “She said, ‘I haven’t done anything wrong; I asked her for beer, and she didn’t give it to me, and she’s been cheeky before’,” she said.

Justice Kelly said some men thought they had “ownership of a woman – she has no right to say no, and she has no right to leave when she wants to”.

Crown facts in many domestic and family violence cases say the crime was reported by a nurse or a doctor when the victim sought medical attention. Justice Kelly took that as evidence the Territory’s already appalling official ¬violence rates are underestimated.

NT Chief Minister Natasha Fyles told The Australian this week that the elevation of a f
ederal Labor government and three Indigenous federal NT representatives presented a “historic” opportunity to tackle domestic and family violence. But she did not outline any new strategy besides using needs-based funding to deliver services locally.

Justice Kelly said bringing down violence rates would require tackling the causes of crime, such as disadvantage, which were society’s problems.

“The cultural component of the tolerance for violence and the prioritising of the rights or the interests of men and male offenders over those of women and women victims, that’s not something that can be dealt with by wider society; that has to come from within,” she said.

She did not believe the parole system was failing but did think correctional services, the Director of Public Prosecutions and legal aid agencies were under--resourced.

The NT coroner will next year hold an inquest into the death of R Rubuntja, an anti-domestic-violence campaigner whose violent partner ran her down in the car park of Alice Springs Hospital, dragging her body beneath the car’s undercarriage.

I won't go into my life's story by 3 different men, maybe worse & I'm Not Aboriginal, added with me being forced to watch my Pets being slowly murdered!! I escaped and had to go into Hiding for Decades nearly the whole of my life, jumping at every strange sound! Then one day decades later he found me, and he still loves me and so the saga continues, in hiding Again...... Being a quite person, Never saying a word to antagonise and having a wonderful Father totally opposite to the violent partners so I was Not prepared! Forget calling Police, forget taking out an AVO, it only ends in that person's death!! SOLUTION; ALCOHOL, it's a DEADLY WEAPON!! GET RID OF ALCOHOL!!! It produces a DR JEKYLL & MR HYDE personality!

The total personality change in said person shows what that deadly chemical called alcohol can do to the human brain!! Now a Son is a Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde through Alcohol, one minute a nice guy then mouthful after mouthful sees this same person turn into an abusive verbal maniac!!

There is No Stopping the violence in Aboriginal communities Until the Alcohol is stopped Completely and then Factories opened up to give those with Nothing to do an incentive in life!!

There's enough Millionaires in this country that could donate to have factories built and they'd still make the money back with their Shares on the Stock Exchange! I have put this to my Aboriginal best friend and she agrees!!

Until Alcohol is totally gone from the community and businesses opened up for folk to work in then all the talk and all the incarcerations will do Absolutely Nothing, this has been going on for decades and it will continue Forever Unless a total change is brought about!! I wish all those involved well.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE1...

seeds's picture
seeds's picture
seeds Saturday, 4 Jun 2022 at 2:16pm

What is your point Indo?

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Saturday, 4 Jun 2022 at 3:56pm
seeds wrote:

What is your point Indo?

It wasn't posted to make a point as such, more just it popped up in my FB feed and a new article relevant to the recent discussion

But i guess if it you were looking for points then i guess its interesting that NT ¬Supreme Court judge ¬ Judith Kelly also mentions some cultural elements.

indo-dreaming wrote:

Justice Kelly said the causes of violence against Aboriginal women could not be remedied with a little extra money or a new program.

She said there was also a cultural component.

“The evidence is so clear that it can’t really be denied – of a tendency in some communities to prioritise the interests of male offenders over the interests of female victims,” she said. “There is not just a culture of ¬silence; there is an active silencing or attempt to silence Aboriginal complainants, women who have been the victims of violence from men.”

Traditional Aboriginal culture appeared to have some elements of “men having the right to discipline their wives … and a cultural component of revenge”.

“Revenge used to be a lot more formalised, standing for spearing and the like, but now often consists of a carload of men going to somebody’s camp and beating up anybody they can find there,” Justice Kelly said. “And if they happen to kill somebody during that process, then there’s a blood feud.

Offenders often did not believe they had erred, even after sentencing. Justice Kelly mentioned one who claimed “men can hit wives” and whitefellas had “no right to change that”. She also recounted a remark by a woman who broke her niece’s leg. “She said, ‘I haven’t done anything wrong; I asked her for beer, and she didn’t give it to me, and she’s been cheeky before’,” she said.

Justice Kelly said some men thought they had “ownership of a woman – she has no right to say no, and she has no right to leave when she wants to”.

Crown facts in many domestic and family violence cases say the crime was reported by a nurse or a doctor when the victim sought medical attention. Justice Kelly took that as evidence the Territory’s already appalling official ¬violence rates are underestimated.

seeds's picture
seeds's picture
seeds Saturday, 4 Jun 2022 at 8:49pm

We know the problems. This is just bias confirmation that this is culture based for you. I would argue that when the judge says culture she means the culture that has developed in these communities because of all the reasons your detractors are raising. I would argue she doesn’t mean this has been aboriginal culture for 40000 years or more

UserMick's picture
UserMick's picture
UserMick Sunday, 5 Jun 2022 at 9:35am

Not McHugh J
Toohey J
Sorry

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Sunday, 5 Jun 2022 at 12:48pm
seeds wrote:

We know the problems. This is just bias confirmation that this is culture based for you. I would argue that when the judge says culture she means the culture that has developed in these communities because of all the reasons your detractors are raising. I would argue she doesn’t mean this has been aboriginal culture for 40000 years or more

absolutely it is not a culture for 40000 years or more

but it totally is a culture that has developed through an ancient patriachal culture combined with contemporary whiteman's poisons...

I think where people get frustrated is, because the run of the mill advocates that call everything is as a result of 'racism'... are also the very same advocates extremely critical of the 'old white men' that run the world, and their preserving of power through their so called 'patriachy' etc.

...yet when the very obvious ill effects of a patriachal culture are causing extrene harm, these very same advocates are silent (or silenced) through an ideology that believes it is all a result of 'racism'...

'the narrative' just doesn't stack up in the modern context

it is well reported that 'culture' is used as a silencing tool as pointed out by the judge, and has been known as such for quite some time

that passage from the australian was truly difficult to get through, but as the judge shows, one can have compassion, believe racism and inequality are contributing factors, and also believe, that what we have been doing for the last few decades has fed and exacerbated these problems rather than address them

time for a change... thankfully there has been a recent change in narrative coming from within ...to try and silence these voices - as seems to be the reflexive reaction from some - is just to continue to feed the beast...

you know what einstien said about doing the same thing?

AlfredWallace's picture
AlfredWallace's picture
AlfredWallace Sunday, 5 Jun 2022 at 3:30pm

Indo you fail to identify that all the problems that you keep eluding to in Aboriginal communities are no different to those same problems that exist in non-aboriginal communities like yours and mine. For the life of me WHAT IS YOUR POINT with all this rabbiting on. Again i look deep into it all your scribes and its clearly evident you have a HUGE problem with aboriginal people. Do you just keep writing in the desperate hope that someone will eventually agree with you ? Give if it away mate, its extremely boring and tiresome. Have you had a personal experience with Aboriginal people thats scarred you for life or are you not telling us something, you appear extremely intimidated by them, otherwise you wouldn’t keep writing this crap.
Hope you and your Indonesian wife and children are happy. What colour are your offspring ?

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Monday, 6 Jun 2022 at 7:46am

@ Seeds

She clearly uses the words "Traditional Aboriginal culture" and outlines traditional aspect of culture.