Australia - you're standing in it

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Sheepdog started the topic in Friday, 18 Sep 2020 at 11:51am

The "I can't believe it's not politics" thread.

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Westofthelake Saturday, 18 Sep 2021 at 6:58pm

#ThatFellaDownUnder

Burnt the French, burnt the NZer's, burnt $2 bill, and what do we get?

An Announcement.

Vic Local's picture
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Vic Local Saturday, 18 Sep 2021 at 7:10pm

Obama is a "traitor".
And here we have the idiot right in all it's "glory".
Trump of course isn't a traitor despite encouraging a mob to storm the capital on Jan 6 where 6 people died. And that's after not accepting a democratic vote, and his long history of dealing with foreign dictators to attack the democrats.
Calling Obama a traitor while ignoring the ridiculous extremism of Trump and his cronies is just silly.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Saturday, 18 Sep 2021 at 8:04pm
Vic Local wrote:

Obama is a "traitor".
And here we have the idiot right in all it's "glory".
Trump of course isn't a traitor despite encouraging a mob to storm the capital on Jan 6 where 6 people died. And that's after not accepting a democratic vote, and his long history of dealing with foreign dictators to attack the democrats.
Calling Obama a traitor while ignoring the ridiculous extremism of Trump and his cronies is just silly.

Why do you keep getting this wrong?

Five people died not six

1. One unarmed women shot at point blank range by security.

2.One police officer died the next day from a heart attack (and no he did not get hit with a fire extinguisher)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Brian_Sicknick

3.One died of a stroke.

4.One died of a heart attack.

5. One women did get trampled but actually died of acute amphetamine intoxication

Vic Local's picture
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Vic Local Saturday, 18 Sep 2021 at 8:24pm

And a bunch of Capitol police officers have since committed suicide.
But hey, let's all just ignore Trump's role in this insurrection.
This was his violent mob.
And the idiot rabble on the streets of Melbourne today have been encouraged by the LNP in Victoria and the Sky News After Dark nutters.
You blokes need to start calling out the conservative megaphones who whip up stupid violent mobs for political gain.

I focus's picture
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I focus Saturday, 18 Sep 2021 at 11:07pm

China and its threat to Oz?

Historically China hasn't had a military ambition beyond its boarders other than Japan.
Taiwan will always be a part of China so its not an example.
South China sea is also a Chinese asset also not an example

Great powers always use economic power to gain control and influence for their own benefit. This is also always followed by projecting military power to maintain this advantage.

Question is will China project military power?

Currently China's military build up isn't configured for this purpose.

Why are we building subs here that will leave a 20 to 40 year capability gap costing x 2 to 3 times as a result with no reduction in sovereign risk?

Having nuclear powered subs will lead to having them also being some time in the future being nuclear armed.

Carry on gents...

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garyg1412 Saturday, 18 Sep 2021 at 11:39pm

China doesn't need to outgun us. They will just outsmart us. Spending $90 billion on some submarines is a fucking obscenity. Imagine spending that amount on health and educating your population. How switched on would this country be in 20 years time which is when we will take delivery of these subs.

Do some quick maths. Say an average uni or hospital costs $2 billion to build we could build 45 of these. Say the average uni fee is $50k we could give 1.8 million students an education that will better their lives. Say the average front line health workers wage is $150k then this would employ 60,000 health care workers for the next ten years.

One has to seriously question the intellect of a marketing executive, a journalist and someone who could be your great grandad, firstly for discussing this idea, and secondly for actually implementing it. Real leadership is non existent at the moment.

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Optimist Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 5:48am

We don’t need the submarines just yet, but we do need the British and American navy guard dogging our pacific turf. It’s a good deal with them sharing all their other gadget tech as well. So now China will no longer be a military threat but the problem is them being a hacking threat. With quantum tech they will eventually be able to hack everything so we need a good off grid defence and monetary system. Can you imagine the whole world waking up one day with their bank accounts empty. The head of alibaba disappeared recently after refusing to hand over everyone’s account details to the Chinese govt. these are the threats we really need to be concerned about. Time to untangle yourself from internet and tech reliance. Pay cash, simplify, turn off most apps…etc etc…don’t use your proper date of birth all over the net…can’t hurt.

etarip's picture
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etarip Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 5:59am

“South China sea is also a Chinese asset also not an example”

I focus, can you spell out in a little more detail the basis for the CCPs claim over the SCS? That’s at odds with international law, just because you ‘claim’ something doesn’t make it yours. This is a gods summary / explainer:
https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/how-china-bending-rules-so...

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thermalben Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 6:24am
Optimist wrote:

we do need the British and American navy guard dogging our pacific turf

You sure on the double entendre?

etarip's picture
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etarip Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 6:35am
thermalben wrote:
Optimist wrote:

we do need the British and American navy guard dogging our pacific turf

You sure on the double entendre?

Sailors are a different breed….

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 8:20am
garyg1412 wrote:

China doesn't need to outgun us. They will just outsmart us. Spending $90 billion on some submarines is a fucking obscenity. Imagine spending that amount on health and educating your population. How switched on would this country be in 20 years time which is when we will take delivery of these subs.

Do some quick maths. Say an average uni or hospital costs $2 billion to build we could build 45 of these. Say the average uni fee is $50k we could give 1.8 million students an education that will better their lives. Say the average front line health workers wage is $150k then this would employ 60,000 health care workers for the next ten years.

One has to seriously question the intellect of a marketing executive, a journalist and someone who could be your great grandad, firstly for discussing this idea, and secondly for actually implementing it. Real leadership is non existent at the moment.

Im surprised this is the first time this type of naive kiddy type comment has come up here, pity we live in a real world and not some airy fairy fantasy world.

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san Guine Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 8:44am

Just read back through all the comments and thoughts on this site and it got me thinking of our commonalities rather than the differences of nearly all the posters to this site.
So here goes my (non) exhaustive list of shared values of SN posters, in no particular order:

1. The given, that we are all surfers or have some interest in surfing
2. Love and respect for the environment
3. Egalitarianism, everyone should have equal rights and opportunities
4. Fairness, we all want to be treated fairly and have our opinions listened to
5. Freedom, a much misused term, but we all value it
6. Justice
7. Calling out BS, regardless of our political persuasions
8. Distrust of politicians
9. Distrust of corporations
10. Healthy cynicism (see point 8 and 9)
11. Equity for all
12. Acceptance of difference (although sometimes not so much!)
13. Democracy, yet to see anyone post any better alternative
14. Overreach of politicians
15. Anti-discrimination, despite the vitriol, go back to points 3, 4, 6 and 11
16. Enquiring minds
17. A dislike of greed, in all its' forms
18. Surfers are not a homogenous bunch, vive la difference!

This is only my perspective of these Swellnet forums. Feel free to add, subtract, disagree.

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brutus Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 9:06am

Question...what has China actually done to Australia in that Australia keeps taking some kind of moral ground on Covid/Wuhan/Uighers/human rights ?

Australia has a Human rights issues with First Nations peoples/refugees/killing civilians in Afghanistan.......so moral high ground?

Why has Australia provoked China with empty rhetoric ....war, said the flea to the dog .....

France found out from the media , that Australia was now forming an alliance with the UK/USA and not buying French Subs and creating the new alliance AUKUS........Scomo lied to the French as did the USA.........

So maybe there will be jobs in South Australia in a decade building nuclear subs ( unless there is a change of Government, FFS when?) .......we have paid $2.3B so far for the subs....might as well round up the number to $3B .........once we have paid the penalties.....

Now Australia is being called untrustworthy, Lies and treason and turning our backs on Frances/Europes offer of being an ally in the Indo/pacific with us.....and we will be punished for our rotten behaviour with trade sanctions ( What free trade agreement with Europe ?) and now loss of an incredibly important Military allies in France and Europe....

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/lies-and-treason-france-could...

.......can someone please explain where there is a win in this for Australian workers......our economy our National wellbeing?

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D-Rex Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 9:09am

Fingers crossed for Clarry to win Charlie tonight.

I focus's picture
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I focus Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 9:26am
etarip wrote:

“South China sea is also a Chinese asset also not an example”

I focus, can you spell out in a little more detail the basis for the CCPs claim over the SCS? That’s at odds with international law, just because you ‘claim’ something doesn’t make it yours. This is a gods summary / explainer:
https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/how-china-bending-rules-so...

In terms of current law no argument , in terms of a greater power extending home defences it is a given.

The South China Sea belongs to China, no question in terms of strategic defence and its of no matter that's its a major sea way.
The question is when will China have the power and influence to effectively control it.

Recent example I guess would be the Soviet Union keeping western interests away from its border and drawing the line at East Germany. Effectively the Russians occupied neighbour states to achieve this.

Not putting up a legal or moral proposition just throwing up what greater powers do currently and historically then asking the question will China follow the script?

I don't know the answer.

In terms of Australian defence and avoiding military confrontation should China expand militarily realistically you couldn't depend on alliances our only means of real defence will be to nuclear arm.

Hence I guess the move to nuclear subs, its preparing Australia for the inevitable IMHO.

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 9:25am

san Guine - Agree 100% - Maybe dislike of on-shores ( the fishermen might disagree ) and apprehension of " men in grey suits " .

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 9:35am

VLocal . A typical response of yours . I mention Obama possibly being a traitor and you respond with what about Trump . Deflection is your style , rarely responding to the original comment .

Obama turning a blind eye to China's was a refusal to do anything that he should have known ( and known the outcomes ) for years in advance .

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etarip Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 9:50am

Hey I focus, I understand China’s desire for strategic depth, and that militarisation of the SCS is their way of achieving it. I just don’t agree that it should be ceded in law or convention. There’s little basis for the claim and it’s far more complex in terms of competing (and valid) claims from up to 12 other nations. It sets a dangerous precedent to accept that because they’ve militarised it it becomes China’s in perpetuity. It seriously compromises the navigation of the seas, and you can see that in the recent passing of a Chinese law that treats it as “territorial waters” - that’s 12nm from the coast everywhere else, not 1200nm as in the case of the 9 dash line.

That’s why there’s countries like Germany, who don’t look like they should care, doing passages of the SCS.

The follow on to this is that people often quite China’s lack of military adventurism as a reason to ‘trust’ them. The reality is that this reflects their prior lack of capability than any high-principled attitude to statecraft. That equation has changed. It also ignores the annexation of places like Tibet, border incursions in Vietnam and an ongoing low-level tension on the Indian border. Recent flare ups in the Himalayas were instigated by the PRC, not India, and there’s not much consensus on what the purpose of that was.

I’m not sure that these outposts in the SCS are actually that defensible militarily. Especially the isolated ones. But it’s a huge gambit for the PRC to present an attack on one of them as the same as an attack on mainland China.

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etarip Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 9:52am

Pleas don’t assume that my analysis makes me comfortable with the political drum-beating that accompanies it. The same people that pushed acceptance of a deep economic dependency on China on the population are now using the scare campaign against them.

Hutchy 19's picture
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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 10:04am

etarip - The FBI leader admitted to leaking to the press when trying to undermine Trump . Why highlight their views on ANIFA ?

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fitzroy-21 Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 10:15am
Hutchy 19 wrote:

VLocal . A typical response of yours . Deflection is your style , rarely responding to the original comment .

Exactly Hutch, he's being doing it ever since he started on here. Deflects, twists, turns and skews it to suit his narrative which rarely has anything to do with what was written in the original post he is responding to. Even multiple simple explanations doesn't get through.

etarip
“ That equation has changed. It also ignores the annexation of places like Tibet, border incursions in Vietnam and an ongoing low-level tension on the Indian border. Recent flare ups in the Himalayas were instigated by the PRC, not India, and there’s not much consensus on what the purpose of that was.”

It is a subtle and patient ploy in my view. They don't appear to recognise or respect known borders and sovereignty. Skirmishes with Pakistan, India and through the Himalayas as you have mentioned. All the countries the encompass in the SCS, they are strangling their fishing rights and intimidating freedom of passage. Passive aggression.

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vladalotovodka Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 10:20am

Wall Street and big boy US Senators make much money when is give US jobs to China peoples. Much bonus mean turn eye of blind to China bigly majong game. Great USA busy make war with sand people and poke Putin in eye with stick often so surprise when friend of is funny bamboo chopstick shift to wolf warrior big swinging codpiece panda.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 10:23am

@brutus

In regard to taking a moral high ground on Covid/Wuhan, Australia didnt infect the world with Covid, a virus that highly likely escaped from a lab in Wuhan because of some very highly risky gain of function research, China and even the WHO then seemed to almost cover up what they were dealing with, if they had been open and honest from day one, it most likely could have been contained and not turn into the biggest global pandemic of our life time.

All Australia and many other countries want is an honest and open investigation into the origins of Covid, so we can all learn from the how and why and prevent it happening again, but that hasn't happened and is ever unlikely to happen, and we all know why. (anyway this is an old issue, Scomo did and said what was needed but it hasn't been brought up or pushed hard since)

Every country has it's human rights issues past and present no country is perfect, but comparing Australia to China in regard to human right issues is absolutely ridiculous.(especially with the issues you are suggesting)

Australia is not provoking China with empty rhetoric, they are securing some submarines because obviously intelligence/military agencies and western governments are concerned about all kinds of issues around China be it the South China Sea, Taiwan or possibly a lot of shit we aren't privy too

They aren't just going out to buy them because it sounds like a good idea, the amount of people behind the scenes and discussion would be huge, whole departments and million of dollars spent examining all possible future scenarios/risk, the USA sharing info (maybe not all) with out departments in Australia and maybe even making suggestions advising etc

The role Scomo or any other PM would play is pretty much just giving the tick of approval at the end of the day, trusting that all the expert advisors are on the money.

In regard to France, they have a right to be upset, but shit happens they will get over it, end of the day you need to do the best for yourself or your country, for some reason they changed their plan on which Subs (think there was a post/article somewhere pointing out reasons why)

Its fun to discuss this kind of stuff or Covid, vaccines, Climate change science etc, but end of the day we are all just nobodies on a forum with worthless views, its the experts in their fields that get paid the big bucks and live this shit day in day out that are the people we should trust and listen too be it about Covid, Vaccines, or this issue.

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 10:29am

VLocal - What I am having trouble working out is that IF Trump gave a clear suggestion to rioters to storm the Hill as you say , why was it so poorly defended ? They had almost no security there ! How did the rioters know to go there and how could others not know .

Who made that decision ? Was it the FBI/CIA ? Why ? It just doesn't make sense to me .

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brutus Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 10:35am
etarip wrote:

Pleas don’t assume that my analysis makes me comfortable with the political drum-beating that accompanies it. The same people that pushed acceptance of a deep economic dependency on China on the population are now using the scare campaign against them.

etarip, great point.....the rise of China is directly linked to the West's capitalist formula.......of profit at all cost.
Find a country that has really cheap labour , and a government prepared to build infrastructure for industry and there you have it , more profit and which means a better lifestyle with more toys and leisure hrs.......for US!
So our lust for money and power and our decadent lifestyles has created China's wealth and power...and now they want the same as us....
Your point about the people who created China's power are now the ones complaining...is the true irony of the small minds that can't see our current lifestyles /cultures are based on colonialism/cheap labor and exploiting poorer countries ,LOL!!

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 10:37am

Indo . Disagree on this unfortunately .

"Its fun to discuss this kind of stuff or Covid, vaccines, Climate change science etc, but end of the day we are all just nobodies on a forum with worthless views, its the experts in their fields that get paid the big bucks and live this shit day in day out that are the people we should trust and listen too be it about Covid, Vaccines, or this issue."

It has taken them years to finally make the correct decision on subs and a few billion to correct the previous decision . We do pay them big bucks but often we don't get our monies worth .

Vic Local's picture
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Vic Local Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 10:46am
Hutchy 19 wrote:

VLocal - What I am having trouble working out is that IF Trump gave a clear suggestion to rioters to storm the Hill as you say , why was it so poorly defended ? They had almost no security there ! How did the rioters know to go there and how could others not know .

Who made that decision ? Was it the FBI/CIA ? Why ? It just doesn't make sense to me .

Wow Hutchy19, blaming the police, and not the rioters and their chief instigator is a stunning piece of blame shifting. Even for you.

Trump lost the election, he didn't accept the vote, and then urged a mob to go to the capital and fight like hell. 70 minutes later they stormed the capitol building. It's not that complicated mate.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 10:56am
Hutchy 19 wrote:

Indo . Disagree on this unfortunately .

"Its fun to discuss this kind of stuff or Covid, vaccines, Climate change science etc, but end of the day we are all just nobodies on a forum with worthless views, its the experts in their fields that get paid the big bucks and live this shit day in day out that are the people we should trust and listen too be it about Covid, Vaccines, or this issue."

It has taken them years to finally make the correct decision on subs and a few billion to correct the previous decision . We do pay them big bucks but often we don't get our monies worth .

If these nuclear subs are the best subs for the future and needs then yeah id love to know why we went for the french subs first?

But to really know why, i need an experts opinion not just somebody's opinion.

Things sometimes change in life, outlooks and needs change, cost and budgets change, collaboration options change, technology advances etc

This doesn't completely answer things, but its still a decent read.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-16/why-australia-wants-nuclear-subma...

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Fliplid Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 11:00am

Indo - "pity we live in a real world and not some airy fairy fantasy world."

Indo it is actually a reality in some countries, just not in Australia. Someone in Norway can can go to uni and they would be able to graduate with a medical degree at no cost. In Australia the same degree would cost between $250,000 to $600,000.

Do you think the a free, good quality tertiary education would be of a benefit to the average Aussie kid?

This goes a long way to explaining why there are so many foreign doctors in Australia. Also explains why some European countries have diverse and prosperous economies without having to rely on digging stuff out of the ground.

We had a choice and decided it was better to turn education and health into a way to make money rather than seeing it as a way that can develop and grow the nation/ economy

"Most of the Norwegian public universities don’t charge any tuition fees. This applies to all international students, regardless of their country of origin.

https://www.mastersportal.com/articles/1664/study-in-norway-tuition-fees...

"Higher education in Sweden is grant-aided and free of charge. State-funded institutions are not allowed to charge fees. This means that all Swedish students and students from the EU/EEA are educated free of charge."

https://eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-policies/eurydice/content/higher-edu...

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 11:03am
Vic Local wrote:
Hutchy 19 wrote:

VLocal - What I am having trouble working out is that IF Trump gave a clear suggestion to rioters to storm the Hill as you say , why was it so poorly defended ? They had almost no security there ! How did the rioters know to go there and how could others not know .

Who made that decision ? Was it the FBI/CIA ? Why ? It just doesn't make sense to me .

Wow Hutchy19, blaming the police, and not the rioters and their chief instigator is a stunning piece of blame shifting. Even for you.

Trump lost the election, he didn't accept the vote, and then urged a mob to go to the capital and fight like hell. 70 minutes later they stormed the capitol building. It's not that complicated mate.

He also said in his speech at 12:00 just before the riot

"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard," he said.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 11:09am

@Fliplid

I wasn't talking about education aspect, not interested in getting into any discussion on that.

I was talking about the naive child like cliche view that people(generally when your 15 to 25) always bring up about military spending thinking we can just use all that money for other purposes and do away with the military.

Its just completely naive and comes from the fact we have been brought up in a country that hasn't been affected by conflict or war.

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goofyfoot Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 11:18am
indo-dreaming wrote:
Vic Local wrote:
Hutchy 19 wrote:

VLocal - What I am having trouble working out is that IF Trump gave a clear suggestion to rioters to storm the Hill as you say , why was it so poorly defended ? They had almost no security there ! How did the rioters know to go there and how could others not know .

Who made that decision ? Was it the FBI/CIA ? Why ? It just doesn't make sense to me .

Wow Hutchy19, blaming the police, and not the rioters and their chief instigator is a stunning piece of blame shifting. Even for you.

Trump lost the election, he didn't accept the vote, and then urged a mob to go to the capital and fight like hell. 70 minutes later they stormed the capitol building. It's not that complicated mate.

He also said in his speech at 12:00 just before the riot

"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard," he said.

So was it fight like hell or peacefully make your voice heard?
Who’s telling porkies?

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 11:27am
goofyfoot wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Vic Local wrote:
Hutchy 19 wrote:

VLocal - What I am having trouble working out is that IF Trump gave a clear suggestion to rioters to storm the Hill as you say , why was it so poorly defended ? They had almost no security there ! How did the rioters know to go there and how could others not know .

Who made that decision ? Was it the FBI/CIA ? Why ? It just doesn't make sense to me .

Wow Hutchy19, blaming the police, and not the rioters and their chief instigator is a stunning piece of blame shifting. Even for you.

Trump lost the election, he didn't accept the vote, and then urged a mob to go to the capital and fight like hell. 70 minutes later they stormed the capitol building. It's not that complicated mate.

He also said in his speech at 12:00 just before the riot

"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard," he said.

So was it fight like hell or peacefully make your voice heard?
Who’s telling porkies?

To be fair it was both, so yeah mixed message and the more negative one was at the end of his speech, probably would have been wiser to end it with the peaceful bit.

"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard,"

"We fight. We fight like hell and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. So let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue."

You could argue the second bit doesn't have to mean fight with violence though, but either way it could easily be read into that way and was irresponsible, the first peaceful part isn't really open to interpretation.

Anyway better go do some stuff.

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Vic Local Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 11:25am

He also said in his speech at 12:00 just before the riot

"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard," he said.

Too little too late. Trump worked the mob up into a frenzy over weeks with the bullshit claim the election was stolen. On Jan 6, lawmakers were fleeing for their lives. They weren't patriots, they were thugs encouraged by a lunatic.

It's truly stunning how conservatives like to downplay the actions of their violent fellow travellers.
Trying to defend the indefensible actions of Trump is just embarrassing ID. You've said a few sensible things lately. Your last post certainly wasn't one of them.

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vladalotovodka Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 11:30am

Wolf pack not howl at moon. Wolf pack howl at other wolf pack. Wolf decide is was who is bigger pack. Bigger pack with hero alpha leader often scare or attack smaller pack is build territory is have more elk and deer and ground for piss and shit.

China is was busy build big wolf pack Now start howl often.

Nice world of puppy school play is joke if wolf join class.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 11:31am
Vic Local wrote:

It's truly stunning how conservatives like to downplay the actions of their violent fellow travellers.
Trying to defend the indefensible actions of Trump is just embarrassing ID..

Not defending the actions or Trump, just providing the full picture that i agree was irresponsible and mixed messages

BTW. Pot calling kettle black, 2020 USA Antifa & BLM

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brutus Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 11:47am
indo-dreaming wrote:
@bru

Indo...the latest investigation by the USA into Covid was undecided as to where and what the origins were. the Spanish flu started in Minneapolis/USA was spread by the military to Europe and killed between 100-150m people....who cares , it wasn't on purpose as was the Covid....there is no sign anywhere that Covid was artificially created......but Australia stood up thumped it's chest and demanded answers ....who or what is Australia to provoke China, but at the time it was Trump trying to deflect the blame onto China and Scomo did Trumps bidding and the people who had small and big business's paid the price!.....who cares where it came from?

as far as human right issues go...for me it's more B&W.....if someone steals$1 or $100 or $10M....it's still theft.......just as human rights issues are..." oh because ours are lesser that makes it alright?"

Our new found war mongering in becoming a military puppet of the USA and getting 8 subs in 20+ years time.....20 years is a long time....20 years ago we welcomed China's investment , and China became our 1# export market, tourism was Chinese based, our universities profited big time from the influx of Chines students....we accepted China's $'s without question.....sold the port of Darwin , our energy grids/farms.......perhaps it was Labor , but we all accepted the windfall...all of a sudden in 2 years they have become our enemy and we are doing everything we can to piss them off....so we will pay with less business , but more than that our credibility in that we accepted their money and are hypocrites now because we don't like their politics.

In regards to France , Scomo lied to Macron...that's a personal issue.....and Scomo is now responsible for the fracture in French/European relationships and also between France/Europe and the USA.......

in the End the biggest winners, again are China and Russia as the western alliances fragment...

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Vic Local Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 12:04pm

I never defended the BLM riots but hey, at least they had a genuine grievance (police murders that were over-represented in the black community), unlike the Trump mob who's violence was based on pure bullshit.

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 1:09pm

VL - As you know I never blamed the police (deflection again ). I was asking who made the decision to have so few there as it was well known that there was going to be a demonstration ( which turned into a riot due to lack of police numbers ) .

""I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard," he said.

Too little too late. Trump worked the mob up into a frenzy over weeks with the bullshit claim the election was stolen. On Jan 6, lawmakers were fleeing for their lives. They weren't patriots, they were thugs encouraged by a lunatic."

As you said it was weeks in the making . Who made the decision to leave the few poor police to front and control the "frenzied mob " ???? Why were there not hundreds of police there ? Who decided to leave the lambs to be slaughtered ? It would never got as bad if this happened . Did someone want it to happen ?

Don't tell me Trump was the only one who knew !

Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19 Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 2:07pm

Con - I am highlighting the WOKE word again . Australia and the world is wokeing up and it is out of control .

Luckily I think I am part of the unwoken ones and have avoided the pandemic so far .

Authored by Victor Davis Hanson via AmGreatness.com,

":The Jacobins in 1793 hijacked the French Revolution and turned a movement toward a constitutional republic into a totalitarian, year-zero effort to destroy the past and ensure equity for all—or else. The Reign of Terror—and eventually Napoleon—followed.

The effort to force war-weary Czarist Russia to reform into a constitutional monarchy ended up being kidnapped by a small but lethal clique of Leninist Bolsheviks. What ensued was the destruction of Russian life—and millions of corpses—over the next 70 years. Ditto Mao Zedong’s various murderous resets culminating in the cannibalistic “Cultural Revolution.” Mao’s final tab was 60-70 million deaths of his fellow Chinese.

French, Russian, and Chinese wokists all toppled statues, canceled out the nonbelievers, wiped away history, tore down monuments, and declared themselves the purest of all generations in their year zero—before getting down to the business of dividing up the spoils and settling scores.

Most of these bloodbaths started out with the supposedly noble idea of delivering social justice, equity, and fairness before they inevitably went deadly and feral. We should be just as worried about our own woke pandemic."

I focus's picture
I focus's picture
I focus Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 2:11pm
etarip wrote:

Pleas don’t assume that my analysis makes me comfortable with the political drum-beating that accompanies it. The same people that pushed acceptance of a deep economic dependency on China on the population are now using the scare campaign against them.

Nah same same.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 2:16pm

I saw the best t-shirt the other day

"Awake but not Woke"

Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19 Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 3:29pm

If you print them Indo I will buy and wear proudly .

If I decide to print some I will give you one free for highlighting the slogan .

I like " unWoken " as well !

Any response Vic Local on why there was not more police numbers on "The Hill " .

I am perplexed at why the poor police/security had to face the mob with such low numbers .

They had , as you correctly point out , so much warning !

The only logical explanation I can think of is that someone wanted them to storm the building . Was willing to have the doors opened and the protesters turned into rioters . All to blame Trump .

Why would ANYONE do this ? What would they have to gain ?

You are so good with numbers !

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 3:13pm

lots of splashing coming from the shallow end of the gene pool again today, carry on ....

velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 4:12pm

..and a great thanks to Vlad for colouring the thread. I've got a beauty for you Vlad, sure it's not the Russian anthem but it's catchy:

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 4:18pm
Hutchy 19 wrote:

If you print them Indo I will buy and wear proudly .

If I decide to print some I will give you one free for highlighting the slogan .

I like " unWoken " as well !

Any response Vic Local on why there was not more police numbers on "The Hill " .

I am perplexed at why the poor police/security had to face the mob with such low numbers .

They had , as you correctly point out , so much warning !

The only logical explanation I can think of is that someone wanted them to storm the building . Was willing to have the doors opened and the protesters turned into rioters . All to blame Trump .

Why would ANYONE do this ? What would they have to gain ?

You are so good with numbers !

Did a google and there is actually heaps of different ones and places that sell them now, this was the one i saw.

https://www.google.com/shopping/product/14351531073487978863?client=safa...

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 4:36pm

"Indo...the latest investigation by the USA into Covid was undecided as to where and what the origins were. the Spanish flu started in Minneapolis/USA was spread by the military to Europe and killed between 100-150m people....who cares , it wasn't on purpose as was the Covid....there is no sign anywhere that Covid was artificially created......but Australia stood up thumped it's chest and demanded answers ....who or what is Australia to provoke China, but at the time it was Trump trying to deflect the blame onto China and Scomo did Trumps bidding and the people who had small and big business's paid the price!.....who cares where it came from?"

it's a bit ignorant to say "....there is no sign anywhere that Covid was artificially created......" that's simply not true, plenty of scientists believe the spike protien 'fit' is just way too perfect to be natarul and to have evolved so quickly...

but it really doesn't matter anyway... man made or not, is but a bit part of the story...

because when china covered up the outbreak and truth of the pandemic for months and months, and intently allowed it to spread around the world, they were leveraging a disaster at best... and engaging in an act of war, without even considering it at worst...

"...as far as human right issues go...for me it's more B&W.....if someone steals$1 or $100 or $10M....it's still theft.......just as human rights issues are..." oh because ours are lesser that makes it alright?"

there's then, ...and there's now...

"...Our new found war mongering in becoming a military puppet of the USA and getting 8 subs in 20+ years time.....20 years is a long time...."

it's about much more than waiting 20 years for subs...

"...20 years ago we welcomed China's investment , and China became our 1# export market, tourism was Chinese based, our universities profited big time from the influx of Chines students....we accepted China's $'s without question....."

it wasn't all bliss for all of us... and whilst I didn't personally have an issue 20 years ago, it was patently clear at least 10 years ago where all this greed was heading...

the uni issues are an absolute disgrace at a minimum, ...and just plain wrong the influence and corruption they gained of our once great system...

"...old the port of Darwin , our energy grids/farms.......perhaps it was Labor , but we all accepted the windfall...all of a sudden in 2 years they have become our enemy and we are doing everything we can to piss them off....so we will pay with less business , but more than that our credibility in that we accepted their money and are hypocrites now because we don't like their politics."

because two years ago china dropped its mask, ...their reaction to, and about the corona virus has shown they are not our friends in a mutual relationship at all, they are totally self serving and dominating...

it became indisputable

"... In regards to France , Scomo lied to Macron...that's a personal issue.....and Scomo is now responsible for the fracture in French/European relationships and also between France/Europe and the USA......."

well yeh, but big joe has done way more damage on these fronts than little scotty has...

the alliances are all over the shop, but I think the real enemy of a free world will make all these tiffs and fits seem totally irrelevant

"...in the End the biggest winners, again are China and Russia as the western alliances fragment..."

russia... yes

china... we'll see

all of the above just expediated a much needed reckoning, ...better late than never...

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 4:27pm

vicvoacal, you come across as such an old conservative stick in the mud with your hyper dramatised outraged accounts of the great unwashed...

and then you write gems like this...

"It's truly stunning how conservatives like to downplay the actions of their violent fellow travellers."

ppffffffffffffffffff

is that an obseravation or an admission?

Island Bay's picture
Island Bay's picture
Island Bay Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 4:49pm
Hutchy 19 wrote:

Con - I am highlighting the WOKE word again . Australia and the world is wokeing up and it is out of control .

Luckily I think I am part of the unwoken ones and have avoided the pandemic so far .

Authored by Victor Davis Hanson via AmGreatness.com,

":The Jacobins in 1793 hijacked the French Revolution and turned a movement toward a constitutional republic into a totalitarian, year-zero effort to destroy the past and ensure equity for all—or else. The Reign of Terror—and eventually Napoleon—followed.

The effort to force war-weary Czarist Russia to reform into a constitutional monarchy ended up being kidnapped by a small but lethal clique of Leninist Bolsheviks. What ensued was the destruction of Russian life—and millions of corpses—over the next 70 years. Ditto Mao Zedong’s various murderous resets culminating in the cannibalistic “Cultural Revolution.” Mao’s final tab was 60-70 million deaths of his fellow Chinese.

French, Russian, and Chinese wokists all toppled statues, canceled out the nonbelievers, wiped away history, tore down monuments, and declared themselves the purest of all generations in their year zero—before getting down to the business of dividing up the spoils and settling scores.

Most of these bloodbaths started out with the supposedly noble idea of delivering social justice, equity, and fairness before they inevitably went deadly and feral. We should be just as worried about our own woke pandemic."

Bingo!

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local Sunday, 19 Sep 2021 at 6:10pm

Hang on sypkan.
Hutchy19 has just posted a truly bizarre conspiracy theory claiming the Jan 6 riots were somehow choreographed to make Trump look bad, and apparently I'm a conservative for pointing out his complete and utter bullshit.
sypkan, that's just weird.