Australia - you're standing in it

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Sheepdog started the topic in Friday, 18 Sep 2020 at 11:51am

The "I can't believe it's not politics" thread.

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brutus Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 11:03am
Blowin wrote:

I agree with you a 100% in that our current system is not sustainable ( one of the most overused words trying to achieve wokeness,LOL)

(quote-Blowin )I’m not belittling your efforts at Winki. I was impressed and stoked that you took it to them. That’s why I’m so surprised you’d bend over and accept the population growth model as a fair accompli.

Births in Australia aren’t the problem. Stop the importation of a million extra people every few years is a matter of refusing them visas. That’s neither in humane or difficult. You seem ready to do anything to prevent climate change but balk at the economic challenges associated with addressing the far more immediate and pressing danger of Australia’s rampant population growth which will destroy our society and country decades before we feel the effects of climate change to any comparable degree.

People see the headlines and shock of the 2019 bushfires yet fail to assume the same horror to the exponentially worse impacts of population growth because they don’t have the visual impact of 100 foot high flames. Far more habitat and species has been lost to our expanding human footprint than is lost to any fires and the destruction is permanent.

The need for drinkable shit / desalinated rubbish water and the continued environmental destruction of Australia has nothing to do with controlling birth rates and everything to do with the issuance of visas due to economic prerogatives. What price do you put on a liveable home for your grandkids?

The problem is our current system that is increasingly buckling under the pressures of the capitalist system that we have been conned into believing is the only answer....ie...big business runs the system....the system needs and wants profit at any cost....and we the people bare the cost...or profit at any cost when you breakdown what's happening to the environment/economies and the priorities we as a society accept and see as our God given right to be entitled to all our toys/holidays/free $'s and expect our current system to deliver for our Grandkids....therein lies the problem......expectation/entitlement and really can anyone see how in 10-20 years society/liveability will be better?
Just so you know when we found out about the WSL/SCS council scam on the Winki Platform ,I actually stood for council to expose some of the councillors and CEO(free trip to hawaii with the WSL for Pipe) and Surf Coast Shire officers...and a level of corruption that was actually transparent ....so I went to war with a couple of friends , called out all the powers to be as corrupt....stood on Trust/respect and moral integrity...I called all of them out in public , not one of them came back at me.....then suddenly rumours and innuendo everywhere through the Shire here.....my wife left me because I bashed her , I am a misogynist , drug dealer , acid causality ......this was started by the ex-mayor , had 2 councillors ready to sign Stat decs that the ex-mayor spread the bullshit to protect the Labor party's control of council......as the labor led council here will not and cannot stop the next 100,000 people coming here there is literally $30 b worth of development being built...so be careful when you take shit on, they will come for you and your credibility.....

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icandig Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 11:09am
Hutchy 19 wrote:

The Winki platform sounds an good idea to me . .

There are multiple places to view the ocean from connected by concrete paths stemming from the Winki and Bells carpark. Apart from bending over to cop it from the WSL - there is no reason to build a higher path so people can view it from further up in the air. I reckon Hutchy would be one of those people you'd avoid at a party. Constantly offering an opinion nobody wants to hear and taking a contrary opinion to anybody else just to hear the sound of his own voice. Geez Hutchy take a break - you're peppering every forum topic with self important drivel.

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 11:23am

Brutus -"so be careful when you take shit on, they will come for you and your credibility....."

I have had the same experience . Blew a whistle and then got blown out of the water . I then got back in at another location .

As I said above I think the Winki platform would be good for the region .

Having corruption in the council should be called out and full marks for doing so !!!!

With regard to capitalism . Remember that its introduction allowed for the replacement of Feudalism . The change of a status quo that finally allowed wealth to be shared and not hogged by the nobility and their minions .

Its introduction in the 17th Century caused 100 years of chaos with the Little Ice Age contributing . The wars ( including civil ) and the famines caused European populations to plummet especially in the south .

The royals did not give away their power . It had to be taken from them and was hard won but ultimately well worth it .

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brutus Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 11:42am
icandig wrote:
Hutchy 19 wrote:

The Winki platform sounds an good idea to me . .

There are multiple places to view the ocean from connected by concrete paths stemming from the Winki and Bells carpark. Apart from bending over to cop it from the WSL - there is no reason to build a higher path so people can view it from further up in the air. I reckon Hutchy would be one of those people you'd avoid at a party. Constantly offering an opinion nobody wants to hear and taking a contrary opinion to anybody else just to hear the sound of his own voice. Geez Hutchy take a break - you're peppering every forum topic with self important drivel.

Icandig ....I think ol hutchy could be called the conversation Killer ,LOL!!!

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GuySmiley Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 11:58am

If my memory is correct the Winki platform was all about a toilet and cigarette stop for the many (50+?) large tourist buses travelling down the GOR on a daily basis prior to Covid. Day tripping mostly Chinese tourists leaving Melbourne early before travelling down the GOR to the 12 Apostles and then back to Melbourne in the late afternoon (before flying to Sydney to do the Blue Mountains in a day before flying to Urulu or the Great Barrier Reef .... Australia in a week!! ). You can debate the merits of that sort of tourism all you like but the viewing platform on the cliff top inside a surfing reserve wasn't warranted although an upgrade to existing toilets would be good.

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stunet Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 12:17pm

If my memory is correct, Winki is very easy to see while standing on the ground.

Only a short arse would want a platform.

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 12:19pm

If the platform and pathway upgrade doesn't lead to a better walking and viewing experience for everyone then it should never have been planned and not built . Money should be spent more wisely upgrading facilities like toilets and change rooms .

A ciggy shop is stupid as the tourists would have planned for a day out and have a good supply .

If it would be only used for better viewing of the Bells contest then it is a waste and good on everyone for stopping it .

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brutus Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 12:29pm
Hutchy 19 wrote:

If the platform and pathway upgrade doesn't lead to a better walking and viewing experience for everyone then it should never have been planned and not built . Money should be spent more wisely upgrading facilities like toilets and change rooms .

A ciggy shop is stupid as the tourists would have planned for a day out and have a good supply .

If it would be only used for better viewing of the Bells contest then it is a waste and good on everyone for stopping it .

hutchy it's a moot point now as just a couple of us defeated the State Government/ SurfCoast Shire Council/ .Surf Coast Shire officers/Surfing Vic/WSL.......took 2 years .....there will be no platform!

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 12:45pm

The power of a vocal minority which had a good cause . Well done as I have said .

We can now move on to Capitalism and the wonderful benefits it has given to human society .

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goofyfoot Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 12:48pm

A ciggy shop?! Hahah fuck hutchy you’re unreal

Buy a deck of Winnie Reds on the way out to Winki

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stunet Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 1:00pm
Hutchy 19 wrote:

We can now move on to Capitalism and the wonderful benefits it has given to human society .

Indeed it has, if only there were a way to temper the extremities.

The laissez faire attitude that promotes inequality and social instability.
The exclusion of economic externalities that encourages environmental destruction.
The aggregation of hyper wealth that outstrips sovereign authority.

Hey-yup for capitalism but if something ain't done about those three factors then future generations will bemoan it the way you do feudalism.

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 1:00pm

goofy - I did make a mistake and read stop as shop . Too quick again .

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Blowin Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 1:15pm

Brutus- Your experience dipping your toe into political waters sounds just as I’d imagine. That’s why I have no tolerance for politicians. I’m not sure how you handled the smear campaign. If it was me I reckon it’d end up like one of those all in brawls you see in Korean parliament.

Imagine Scomo or the Beetrooter delivering public lies right to your face. Zero chance I’d be able to refrain from jumping the rail and slapping the bastards. That’s why I’m not suited for politics at any level. Thank Christ there’s people like yourself willing to do the right thing and expose yourself to the brutal tactics of those scumbags.

If you’d permit me to repurpose an old joke :

Q/ What do you call a thousand politicians at the bottom of the ocean?

A/ A good start.

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 1:17pm

Stu - Capitalism is not perfect but it is FAR better than any alternative . A lot of posts on this site are very negative towards it and are very uninformed .

"The laissez faire attitude that promotes inequality and social instability. " Wrong . It has done the opposite . Getting rid of feudalism promote equality and stability . 1600-1700 was the century of crisis .
The two world wars were the only period of major instability ( compared to the usual state ) and were not caused by capitalism .

"The exclusion of economic externalities that encourages environmental destruction." Wrong again .
Humans are smart and can factor in externalities . That's why we have parks , want to close the ozone hole , save endangered animals ( like whales we then find out they can be tourist attractions ) , stop logging old growth forests etc etc.

"The aggregation of hyper wealth that outstrips sovereign authority." I agree ! So you are against Gates ,Soros , Rothschild ,Big Tech , Big Pharma etc . I am worried about them to .

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thermalben Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 1:19pm

We've removed forum signatures, but if we reinstated them, mine would say:

"A ciggy shop at Winkipop is stupid as the tourists would have planned for a day out and have a good supply".

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Blowin Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 1:26pm

“Humans are smart and can factor in externalities . That's why we have parks , want to close the ozone hole , save endangered animals ( like whales we then find out they can be tourist attractions ) etc etc.”

Parks and closing the ozone hole were the result of government, not capitalism. And it was the excess of capitalism which drove whales to the brink of extinction, there was no whale tourism until 30 years after our society declared them protected

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 1:28pm
stunet wrote:
Hutchy 19 wrote:

We can now move on to Capitalism and the wonderful benefits it has given to human society .

Indeed it has, if only there were a way to temper the extremities.

The laissez faire attitude that promotes inequality and social instability.
The exclusion of economic externalities that encourages environmental destruction.
The aggregation of hyper wealth that outstrips sovereign authority.

Hey-yup for capitalism but if something ain't done about those three factors then future generations will bemoan it the way you do feudalism.

No system is perfect but capitalism is the most perfect it's the one corner of a triangle the other being freedom & democracy.

Most of the negatives seen by capitalism is actually as a result of Crony Capitalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

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stunet Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 1:36pm

Nah Hutchy,

Laissez faire capitalism is a shonk. Markets need regulating as pure capitalism encourages vested interests who distort them to their own ends. The only people who'd disagree are those who stand to benefit.

"Humans are smart and can factor in externalities." Quite possibly the most naive thing you've ever written here, which is saying something. If humans can factor in externalities then tell me why we haven't done so yet? Came close with the Carbon Tax but the Mad Monk killed it. Abbott: the most destructive person in Australian politics and destined to be our worse PM ever, outclassing another Liberal scholar, Billy McMahon.

Yeah, I also don't think anyone needs the wealth those people and industries accrued. Never thought a right winger like yourself would agree to the Mining Tax but good on you for getting onside for a fairer Australia.

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stunet Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 1:39pm
indo-dreaming wrote:

Most of the negatives seen by capitalism is actually as a result of Crony Capitalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

See also: The last eight years of Liberal National Party government.

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garyg1412 Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 1:56pm

Wasn't there a band called Ciggieshop that had a song called Brim Full Of Ashes at The Winkipop.

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Constance B Gibson Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 2:06pm

"Abbott: the most destructive person in Australian politics and destined to be our worse PM ever, outclassing another Liberal scholar, Billy McMahon."

Hold me beers, and shit me dacks! Footy's on!

https://junkee.com/scott-morrison-rugby-afl-teams/309077

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brutus Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 2:06pm
Blowin wrote:

Brutus- Your experience dipping your toe into political waters sounds just as I’d imagine. That’s why I have no tolerance for politicians. I’m not sure how you handled the smear campaign. If it was me I reckon it’d end up like one of those all in brawls you see in Korean parliament.

Imagine Scomo or the Beetrooter delivering public lies right to your face. Zero chance I’d be able to refrain from jumping the rail and slapping the bastards. That’s why I’m not suited for politics at any level. Thank Christ there’s people like yourself willing to do the right thing and expose yourself to the brutal tactics of those scumbags.

If you’d permit me to repurpose an old joke :

Q/ What do you call a thousand politicians at the bottom of the ocean?

A/ A good start.

yeah Blowin , I had a choice in getting Stat decs , and making a huge public scene out of the cooments....have a friend who is a great lawyer , he organized a top lawyer pro bono...but why would I spend the next couple of years caught up in a political libel and slander case...I already know how corrupt politicians are and how broken the system is.....so took a deep breath forgave the people involved , as it's really their problem......was angry, anger stops with forgiveness and I found a peace......you have no idea the fight within to rain down revenge and retribution a
which is the old me...actions speak louder than words....and that is one of the hardest life changes one can entertain let alone adopt!
which means I can come onto SN and harass you haha,LOL!

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 2:40pm

Stu - your dislike of me ( which I have no problem with ) is making you write things that make you seem as thick as a brick .

""Humans are smart and can factor in externalities." Quite possibly the most naive thing you've ever written here, which is saying something. If humans can factor in externalities then tell me why we haven't done so yet? "

I gave you numerous examples . I can give you so many more , look at the wonderful reserves in Africa that bring in so much money for the locals . You point to ONE that did not happen ie the Carbon ( dioxide) Tax . There are much better ways to reduce CO2 than bring in a complicated system that can be rorted and avoided . Maybe like Wall St you want carbon trading .

Never thought a Mining Tax a good idea . We have them paying royalties and taxes on their profits already . Why do you want to single out an industry for more pain ? Do you hate them ? Another complicated and easily rorted system .

It sounds like you love bureaucracy ! We would need 100k more to administer your two good ideas .

And then for your highlight of stupidness "Laissez faire capitalism is a shonk."

Let me let you in on something . It doesn't exist in our world . Like the tooth fairy and Santa .

Very happy to debate any of the above .

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Optimist Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 2:44pm

Thoughts you guys on the Sustainable Australia Party....seem good on paper.

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sypkan Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 3:18pm

"Thoughts you guys on the Sustainable Australia Party....seem good on paper."

that's who gets my vote, atop of complicated labrynth of preferences that put labor and liberal last

yes even below you know who...

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stunet Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 3:13pm

Hutchy at the Ciggie Shop on the 45,

Numerous times you've banged on about the evils of regulation, govt interference in free markets, you even wrote that 'I like bureaucracy' in your post, so it's pretty damn obvious you're a proponent of laissez faire capitalism, whether you believe it exists or not.

A park is not an externality if it makes financial returns. Get your shit together. The most obvious externality is pollution that is created by industry and borne by the public. Capitalism has no inbuilt mechanism to counter that, so govts have tried to factor in things such as polluter pays or carbon tax price signals, but right wing zealots oppose them at every turn.

Happy to debate any of the above.

#smileyface

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sypkan Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 3:14pm

good onya brutus...

even though Im feeling a bit of a pygmy for thinking I could never get a decent view of the surf there... the last thing needed is a wsl / tour bus corrupted viewing platform

good fight

and good good fight choice...

ie. not taking the litigious route, no matter how tempting and profitable it can be...

we need less of that shit and thinking creeping into oz, not more

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sypkan Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 3:26pm

here's an externality you might like hutchy...

the fact we do not count the carbon costs for transporting all that plastic shit from china

also all the mega pollution coming from the shitty low regulations chinese plastic factory...

if we did, many places would be much more attractive for manufacturing over china...

just sayin

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blindboy Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 6:23pm

In terms of the debate about laissez-faire economics I would suggest reading The Price of Peace; Money, Democracy And The Life Of John Maynard Keynes by Zachary D. Carter. Keynesian economics showed the way out of the laissez-faire economics of the late 19th and early 20th Century. The application of his ideas led to the New Deal in the US, funded the allies in World War 2 and led to the greater equity and increase in living standards in the post-war period.
Neoliberalism arose in opposition to Keynesian economics. Its explicit goal was to recreate laissez-faire economics. The election of Reagan and Thatcher led to the implementation of neoliberal ideas and the economic distortions that continue to channel vast sums into ever fewer hands while reducing government services.
The pandemic has forced governments to return to Keynesian principles by pumping large amounts of money into the global economy. The question needs to be asked, if this can afforded now why previously could we not afford higher wages and welfare payments, the transition to renewables, better hospitals and schools, toll free roads etc etc?
If Keynesian economics can be reduced to a single sentence it would be "If we can do it, we can afford it." To explain this a little further, if we have the manpower, the skills and the resources to do something, any economic barriers to it are the result of poor policy. He dreamed of a world in which his grand-children would work a threee hour day. We could be living in that world now.

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 6:47pm
blindboy wrote:

.
The question needs to be asked, if this can afforded now why previously could we not afford higher wages and welfare payments, the transition to renewables, better hospitals and schools, toll free roads etc etc?

Wages...they are already too high compared to the rest of the world, the higher they go the more jobs go overseas.

Welfare payments...because the money has to come from somewhere..plus higher wealth fare as we have seen decreases initiative to work for many.

Transition to renewables.....Already happening per captia we have the fastest uptake rate in the world, last week we hit a record of 60% renewable energy at one stage (storage is and will be the problem not renewable uptake or transition)

Better hospitals and schools, toll free roads etc all great but money needs to come from somewhere unless you believe in magic money trees theories.

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simba Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 7:07pm

yeah the money has to come from somewhere........but where?.....does it really matter....i mean they always seem to spend untold money on weapons subs etc but always struggle to spend it where it really matters...schools hospitals etc........but does it really matter or are we all being deluded into thinking it does.......americas a fine eg............just print more,change the rules etc who cares.....

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blindboy Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 7:09pm

Indo, Ross Gittins explains why the debt we have generated is not a significant problem. Given the levels we have generated in a very short period and that much of it ended up in corporate profits I think it us fair to conclude that successive governments have failed to invest sufficiently. Keynes also had quite a bit to say about how governments should spend their money. Neoliberal governments around the world have wasted huge sums that could have made a huge improvements in standards of living.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/stop-thinking-our-kids-will-...

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 7:34pm

Stu - I was a proponent of the tooth fairy and Santa for a while , my young children loved them . How can I want " laissez faire" capitalism when it hasn't existed for centuries and for very good reason . Quite obvious really .

I have never advocated the"evils of regulation, govt interference in free markets" . I have said that over regulation and too much government regulation is bad and stifles free enterprise .You criticised me for misrepresenting ( accidentally ) a quote . Then you deliberately misrepresent me by writing this "so it's pretty damn obvious you're a proponent of laissez faire capitalism " .

Even China recognised this and brought in as much capitalism as they could stomach .

Governments make good decisions with many externalities introduced . It is why we vote for them and give them power . This why I wrote in my first post "Humans are smart and can factor in externalities . "

Some more examples - getting lead out of petrol , installing catalytic converters in cars to reduce pollution .Most of the marine and wildlife parks were declared long before tourism showed the benefits and capitalism was the best system to take advantage of it . There are hundreds more if you can't get your head around this . "right wing zealots oppose them at every turn " I don't , I applauded these important initiatives . Are you misrepresenting me again .

Companies are highly incentivised to improve their practises . Look at the cost Johnson and Johnson have to incur by stuffing up . RIO by blowing up a sacred site . The list is almost endless . Investors reward companies that do the right thing by investing in them .

Time to take your head out of the sand .

sypkan "the fact we do not count the carbon costs for transporting all that plastic shit from china " .

A very blunt , ineffective and inefficient way to get plastics reduced . I hate the plastics in our oceans .

Why not just reward the other alternatives and provide R&D to develop them , phase them out over a specific time , put a direct tax on their use , only allow them to be used when there are no alternatives , put quotas and import duties on Chinese ( and other countries ) products that use plastics , ensure correct disposal etc etc . These things we can do immediately .

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stunet Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 7:54pm

Your first sentence is a logical absurdity, Hutchy.

Comparing fictitious characters to an economic policy? One that still has powerful proponents pushing their beliefs to this day: smaller govts, no intervention in markets, individuals forcefully serving their own interests first.

Yeah, sounds like Santa doesn't it?

If I'm misrepresenting you then it's only because these are thoughts that you've repeatedly pushed on here. The miracle of free markets, the tyranny of regulation, the virtue of wealth.

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blindboy Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 8:12pm

Hutchy you may (or perhaps not) have heard of Milton Friedman. He was one of the leading economists behind the development of the laissez-faire system you champion. Maybe you should have a look at his beliefs.

He;

Argued against licensing doctors on economic grounds
Opposed integrating schools
Defined freedom as only the ability to participate in a free market
Considered the differences between the US New Deal policies and Soviet totalitarianism to be trivial
Called income tax, social security and public education “socialist”
Argued against universal suffrage for black South Africans during the apartheid era.

If those are policies you approve of you cannot expect to be taken seriously. Further I would suggest that instead of indulging in long streams of poorly organised generalisations you consider supporting at least some of your claims with evidence. The evidence for my statements about Friedman can be found on pages 460-463 of the book I mentioned earlier.

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inzider Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 8:25pm

milton friedman was a fuckwit, end of story.

Have you read The Shock Doctrine , great read

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blindboy Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 8:45pm

No inzider I'll have a look.

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 9:07pm
blindboy wrote:

Indo, Ross Gittins explains why the debt we have generated is not a significant problem. Given the levels we have generated in a very short period and that much of it ended up in corporate profits I think it us fair to conclude that successive governments have failed to invest sufficiently. Keynes also had quite a bit to say about how governments should spend their money. Neoliberal governments around the world have wasted huge sums that could have made a huge improvements in standards of living.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/stop-thinking-our-kids-will-...

Yeah the debt we have generated isn't a huge problem, but if we kept spending and spending it would become a problem.

And yeah everyone thinks they know how to run a country, but very few actually do run a country, and very few as successfully as Australia.

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blindboy Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 9:19pm

Well yes Indo, there is a limit but it is clearly nowhere near the current level. My point more broadly is that the explicit goal of neoliberalism is to maintain and increase the wealth of that small minority of the population who control an outsize portion of the national wealth. To that end it is simply not in their interest to use Keynesian methods except for crisis management.

If you disagree with that there is always the point that laissez-faire policies always lead to financial crises. The 2008 meltdown was a direct result of the loosening of banking regulations in the US, particularly the Glass-Steagall Act. China, having followed a similar path, is now facing similar problems.

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Supafreak Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 11:06pm

A few surfboard manufacturers have made the list in contact tracing northern nsw 4783-ED84-423-B-4-FA0-8-FC2-8732-FE45-CDFB

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AndyM Wednesday, 29 Sep 2021 at 11:46pm

“if we kept spending and spending it would become a problem.”

Why is that Indo?

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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 30 Sep 2021 at 7:46am

What a stupid question Andy . Indo said this " And yeah everyone thinks they know how to run a country, but very few actually do run a country, and very few as successfully as Australia."

You have NFI and I hope you are able to run your personal affairs . Here is something you may not know , money does not grow on trees . Look what happened to Italy when they spent too much . The austerity program is still being felt 10 years after the GFC .

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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 30 Sep 2021 at 8:06am

I will say it again for all of you who either don't read or fail to comprehend my posts .

There are NO truly free economic systems in the entire WORLD . I DO NOT advocate that they should be tried or will work . ( even the local farmers market is regulated ) .

Stu- can I assume , since you did not mention externalities , you now concede that humans are good at doing them . I am happy to give you many more examples if necessary .

Stu -"Your first sentence is a logical absurdity, Hutchy.

Comparing fictitious characters to an economic policy? "

You are having trouble thinking straight Stu ! Comparing fictitious characters to a fictitious economic policy is a truism and not absurd . What is absurd and illogical is that you don't get it !!!!!

Friedman and Keynes have both been proven wrong on so many fronts as have most experts in most fields . The REAL world has humans and all their positives and negatives dominating .

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stunet Thursday, 30 Sep 2021 at 8:39am

So there's currently no one advocating for laissez faire principles such as smaller government?

Riiiight...

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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 30 Sep 2021 at 8:50am

Advocating for less government intervention is not advocating for NO government intervention .

It is like hoping for smaller surf when its too big .

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blindboy Thursday, 30 Sep 2021 at 9:00am

So Hutchy what is your view on the housing market? Would you support government intervention to stabilise prices?

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 30 Sep 2021 at 9:03am
blindboy wrote:

Well yes Indo, there is a limit but it is clearly nowhere near the current level. My point more broadly is that the explicit goal of neoliberalism is to maintain and increase the wealth of that small minority of the population who control an outsize portion of the national wealth. To that end it is simply not in their interest to use Keynesian methods except for crisis management.

If you disagree with that there is always the point that laissez-faire policies always lead to financial crises. The 2008 meltdown was a direct result of the loosening of banking regulations in the US, particularly the Glass-Steagall Act. China, having followed a similar path, is now facing similar problems.

"To that end it is simply not in their interest to use Keynesian methods except for crisis management."

Reading about the theory, that's what it seems more to be about anyway, which makes sense you let things roll along during good times, and give a little push of help when things aren't looking so good.

And it's worked fine for the last 30 years, Krudd was pretty useless for the most part but one good thing he did was stimulate the economy during the financial crisis, same has been done during Covid.

As for "Neoliberalism" its just one of those words that people throw around, but everyone has a different grasp of what it really is, i dont agree with your view that its goal is to increase the wealth of a top minority.

BTW. All systems favour those at the top to some degree, the biggest difference with any Capitalist ideals compared to Communism & Capitalism is with Capitalist systems anyone can get to be the at the top and there so many shades of grey between the so called top and bottom, while especially Communism everyone is at the bottom with a few select government officials and cronies at the top, same with proper socialism.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 30 Sep 2021 at 9:14am
AndyM wrote:

“if we kept spending and spending it would become a problem.”

Why is that Indo?

Its quite obvious where you are going MMT is a theory even experts cant agree on, but yeah sure it may work to a certain extent for a period of time and yeah we shouldn't always think of debt as a bad thing, and there is good times to spend or times where we should spend and time's when we should be a bit more careful with spending.

But long term it's just common sense that endless spending is highly likely to end up going pear shaped, because it defies the whole point of the value of money.

BTW. The USA dollar is probably a little unique compared to other currencies, so highly likely they can bend things a little more than many other countries.

To just endless keep spending at high rates for Australia would be reckless and dangerous, not to mention it would most likely be like a serious drug habit where it would never seem like enough and always need that little bit more, all seems fine then bang one day things are pushed too far.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 30 Sep 2021 at 9:22am
Hutchy 19 wrote:

Advocating for less government intervention is not advocating for NO government intervention .

It is like hoping for smaller surf when its too big .

With most things in life the simpler you can get them generally the better otherwise you spin this messy web that can be very hard to untangled, yeah sure at times you need intervention but it should always be more tinkering a little by little where needed rather than crazy changes that could cause things to go real bad.

BTW. Ive said this before but it's always funny that those that complain about governments the most, actually want governments to be bigger and have more control over things and more intervention, go figure?

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AndyM Thursday, 30 Sep 2021 at 9:26am

"it's just common sense that endless spending is highly likely to end up going pear shaped, because it defies the whole point of the value of money."

Pretty vague statement but again, it's conflating the spending of a monetary sovereign government and the spending of a household or individual.

If a government creates money to build, say, hospitals, how will that debase the "value of money"?