The United States(!) of A

factotum's picture
factotum started the topic in Thursday, 27 Aug 2020 at 11:12am

Septic Tanks are going to Septic Tank

zenagain's picture
zenagain's picture
zenagain commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 7:50pm

You are.

Indo's link suggests she enjoys quite substantial support.

Maybe you're worried there may be an indigenous leader in the future that doesn't support your opinions?

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Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 7:51pm

Price is supported by Pauline Hanson and Andrew Bolt. And you blokes still reckon Price is widely respected by indigenous people in Australia??

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

Patrick's picture
Patrick's picture
Patrick commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 7:52pm

VL, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say, grudgingly, that you're not a white supremist.

But... the sexism is another matter and I can't let it go (after all my mum is a woman). I notice you picked out the female for attention as not a 'real' leader but quietly ignored the two males in the article.

Racist and sexist.

Stu, how can you put up with this?

zenagain's picture
zenagain's picture
zenagain commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 7:54pm

Regardless of the toxic people who support her, is she not entitled to her views?

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AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 7:55pm

In this day and age it's tone deaf and pretty offensive.

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 7:59pm

"Regardless of the toxic people who support her, is she not entitled to her views?"
Of course Price is entitled to her views, but let's not pretend she's an indigenous leader.
" but quietly ignored the two males in the article." Oh FFS, my original comment before the link was about Price. Accusing me of sexism for staying on the topic is fucking pathetic Patrick.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

Patrick's picture
Patrick's picture
Patrick commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 7:59pm

VL, that's the stereotyping you keep doing... you want all people of a certain cultural background to have a certain political opinion.... and it's one that you deem appropriate.

Patrick's picture
Patrick's picture
Patrick commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 8:01pm

It's alright big fella, that was a joke.

Patrick's picture
Patrick's picture
Patrick commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 8:02pm

But seriously Stu, how can you put up with it.

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 8:07pm

BS Patrick, If indigenous people want to hold conservative views that's fine with me, but you blokes like to pretend the deeply conservative Price has widespread support amongst indigenous people. I like to deal with reality.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 8:07pm

Authoritarian types like Vic are more likely to be racist and misogynist.

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 8:10pm

not biting trolls

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

Patrick's picture
Patrick's picture
Patrick commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 8:43pm

/

zenagain's picture
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zenagain commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 8:20pm

Do you really think she comes across as deeply conservative? I don't. And, it appears she enjoys more widespread support than you give her credit for.

I'm not trolling you Vic, but Jacinta seems pretty balanced to me in wanting to address violence, grog and sexual assault in her communities and work towards breaking the welfare dependence cycle among her people. Lofty ambitions I know but not without merit.

You of all people know mate to make an omelette you gotta crack a few eggs.

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GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 9:33pm

Zen, you say Jacinta has “her communities” is she community elected or considered an elder or is she a self elected / appointed spokesperson?

zenagain's picture
zenagain's picture
zenagain commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 9:52pm

Maybe a poor choice of words Guy.

Her people maybe more apt.

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GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 10:27pm

No Zen, her people isn’t good either. Given all the history being a spokesperson or an elder for a community is something strictly for the community to give or to take away. Without the backing / support of her mob / community her words are limited to that of an individual.

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 10:46pm

On further reflection, it’s entirely possible if people like Price have no mob / community backing they hinder the debate because others in the general community looking for easy / imposed solutions are likely to latch onto what they say.

zenagain's picture
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zenagain commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 10:48pm

Fair enough Guy but in saying that, you have to question what motivates her? Maybe she's not an elected "leader" or a tribal "elder" and I know I'm gonna get excoriated for saying this but a lot of the talk from the indigenous leaders and elders is pretty much just that- talk. And we know how much that is worth.

If Jacinta is pure in her motivation then I wish her all the power in the world. If she is motivated by greed or personal advancement at the expense of her people, then the converse applies.

Guy, I'm sure you can agree, something needs to be done. These endless gab-fests achieve SFA, it's boots on the ground that gets things done. If Jacinta can affect that change and improve the plight of her mob then I couldn't give a toss what side of the fence she sits on.

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GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Sunday, 13 Sep 2020 at 11:24pm

I don’t care to think about what motivates her it’s irrelevant to my way of thinking, if she has no community authority to speak on their behalf hers is just another voice in a 200 year long imposed history.

Solutions? The country could try something really novel and ask the aboriginal mobs what they want in a true and honest way starting with embracing the Statement from the Heart.

zenagain's picture
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zenagain commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 12:21am

Interesting you mention community authority. I would argue that being indigenous, she would automatically have community authority. Maybe I'm naive in the ways of indigenous culture. maybe it's a patriarchal culture? What I mean by the above is that even though the authority is not bestowed upon her, by being a member of the group and having an intimate knowledge of the workings and nuance that an outsider wouldn't have, then on the strength of that alone, she could in fact speak and act on behalf of her mob regardless of being "permitted" to speak by elected leaders or elders.

Like our society, of course we're taught to respect and obey our elders (much less so these days) but of course if something is not working or something is broken or something or someone is corrupted, it's folly not to listen to an alternative view and even moreso not to act upon it, regardless of who is delivering the message or how uncomfortable it may make certain people feel.

I've mentioned a couple of times that when it comes to winning elections, people don't want change, they want certainty. With the first nations people it seems like they have neither. Yes, embracing the Statement from the Heart is a good start, but again (and I'm not being callous) it's a piece of paper with some beautiful words scribbled on it, it doesn't send the kids to school, it doesn't stop the drugs and booze decimating the communities, it doesn't stop the rapes or the violence or the hopelessness or the prejudice that indigenous Aussies live with day after day after day. It's the first step and that only of the boots on the ground change that is really needed.

So again, my point is, if Jacinta's motivation is pure and born out of love to lift her people up, then whether she's a conservative or not, I will support her stance till the cows come home.

Look at the hundreds of thousands of words written in these SN forums and from some really smart people too- what difference however tiny have they changed anything Guy? It's all just talk man and it's all cheap. Sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's awful but one thing is a given, it's achieved very little . Action gets things done. A plan remains just that, until the first shovel breaks ground, or the first brick is laid, or the first seed is sown. They're not independent of each other. One does not work without the other.

Vic and BB of course will want a link but these are my thoughts Guy. It's nice to have a conversation with you.

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Michael Bourne's picture
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Michael Bourne commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 12:29am

Come on zenny, wise up for once. What's motivating you zenny? Over there, as an immigrant in Japan. What's motivating you, when you nicely decide to overrule Indigenous Australian people's choices, like the good 'ol days, when they decide who they choose to represent and guide them. Guide them out of a very, very recent, most horrific, prolonged, determined attempt to make them extinct. Out of a horrendous slaughter house, attempted genocide. Easy when you have that right, aye zenny, to enjoy the spoils of that worst ever in human history crime. How do you reckon you'd go, having every thing you know ridiculed, every thing you know stolen, watching every one you know, destroyed, including butchered and murdered and raped and tortured around you. The worst things immaginable happening for around 175 years. Things not moving along fast enough, or perfect enough for you zenny? No mistakes allowed for Indigenous Australians, in making their way out of that shit?

Here we are, 200 odd years of being in receipt of a stolen land. A land that was running along just fine, being cared for by Indigenous Australians just fine, better than anyone ever has in human history in fact. For at least 60,000 - 80,000 years, and quite possibly 120,000. So how are we doing after just 200 odd years, now here in lockdown? Lockdown... big achievement. Plus chuck in obesity, climate change, pollution, suicides, inequality, crime, domestic viloence, financial depression, all booming along nicely too. In lockdown.

Our solution? Our chosen leaders, reckon obviously we aren't consuming enough, that we need to get right back to spending, pronto too, to consuming more... heaps more in fact, to making more weapons and stuff too. And, most importantly... to get the buggers (andrew's lot) back in the trenches to work!!! I know you want to be that wise, wise voice zenny, with those, reasoned, 'carefully chosen' words. Again. But remember the last time, once again, documented here in the swillnut chronicles, when you were so, so carefull, so, so wise, so, so swillnut emboldened with your brilliant words. When you swillnutted, when you blurted out, just like now, how some one else wasn't much good at all, not very good at all...either... compared to you. Someone else... who just happened to be one of the all time classic, charging legends, at the heaviest spots going, and on their heaviest days. Remember that, those your 'carefully chosen' wise words zennsless. And a 'prick' too... was your last 'carefully chosen', swillnut emboldened outburst, at that time... again...

Somebody brought up 'goosestepping'. Ever seen anyone 'goosestepping' backwards at ludicrously high speed, including their tongue... Who could ever forget that so, 'carefully chosen', but magnificently bungled, snivelling and grovelling, back trackin', squwarkdown. Not me aaayye!!! Imagine if you got ya big shot then, so reasoned and wise, to teach that highly respected bloke ('prick' ya reckon), ya lesson, to show the world what a real swillnut good bloke can do!!! At maybe maxing chopes, maxing pipe, Maxing Mullaghmore, giant escondido, giant Gland, etc, etc, etc. After you copped a well earned slap in the dial, and then got dumped, still squealing out in the lineup, ('shooda seen me a the yappamoto shorey ayyeee') I don't think... well I know for certain, that not even your wife would be able to save you... again...

Self Determination zennsless, that's Indigenous Australians carefully chosen words. that their chosen teachers taught me. Give em a break if they're not up to perfect speed with how you woulda done shit in their shoes zenny. They deserve a break, zennsless, not more swillnuttin' bullshit, not more of the same 'niceness'. Choose your wise words a bit more carefully... mmmaaayyytee...

zenagain's picture
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zenagain commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 12:47am

Ahh mate, been waiting all night for you to give me a grilling and really, you just poached a lousy egg and it fell off the spoon before you could get it on the toast.

And I know what you're getting at, but remember the exact words (which most of were yours) I retracted what I said. Am I not allowed that? You sure are a hard taskmaster.

Anyway handsome, don't know about you but I don't have the answers, but happy to listen to yours when you come up with the "solution". Till then, happy to take a knee with you.

Nighty night big fella. I was telling lies last night. I did miss you, just a tiny little bit. Can't speak on behalf of the others though.

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Michael Bourne's picture
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Michael Bourne commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 1:00am

Self Determination. How many times do they have to say it. So you want to be allowed to make bungle after bungle, for no actual reasons, other than swillnuttin' and yet...

So how would you have gone zenny, especially after copping a bit more niceness from the 'big guns'. It wasn't that long ago.

Self Determination. Give em an honest break for once, a real one.

Retraction? Who could forget, and yeh, of course I remember that... we'll just call it 'high speed (tongue included) ludicrous reverse goosesteppin'. But did ya actually learn anything?

Nice, sweet dreams!!!

zenagain's picture
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zenagain commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 1:12am

I do mate, even though I'm not up to perfect speed. I like to think I'm capable of evolving. Learning takes a lifetime,

And thankyou, I will as long as you're not in them.

Ps- I think Snuffy has a crush on you.

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indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 7:58am

Good on you Zen, these guys might not like Jacinta because she is a conservative.

But lets remember one thing, her views would never be supported by the left side of politics as don't fit typical typical narratives so she could never run for Labor, and expect much harder financially or even support wise if she ran as an independent. (rusted on Liberal voters automatically vote for her)

She uses what media she can to get exposure be it social media ABC or Sky News, if she didn't do this she wouldn't get media exposure, her aim is obviously to get her message and views out there and to get support.

As you say her heart and motives are obviously in the right place, her whole platform is based on improving the lives of indigenous people and actually being honest about the problems and dealing with them especially the issues around violence and homicide and especially towards women and children. (basically she looks forward instead of always looking backwards that you can clearly see in comments above)

She isnt just some blow in from the city with no first hand experience she has first hand lived and breathed experience and still does see it from a close range, a survivor of a violent abusive marriage, pregnant before she left school, and according to articles has a string of relatives that have been murdered by her own people, I know at least Bess sister was murdered and only last year Jacinta's nephew was killed in a fight (both killed by her own people)

As for some idea she doesn't have the backing of her people not sure how anyone comes to that conclusion but i guess it's because haters are always the loudest, if she didnt have some support in her own community she wouldn't get the votes she does, yeah sure not all votes are her people but that's the same for her opposition.

And this idea she doesn't have the right to be a leader or have her voice heard because she isn't some male elder, seriously its not 1960, she has just as much right as anyone else even if she is a women.

Please Stunet give me an ignore button for Talking Turkey, Shatners Basoon, Dale Cooper, Factotum, Pupkin, and any new fake profile he decides to create.

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 8:11am

It’s not me she has to impress info it’s her mob and I suspect they told her to fuck off long ago. She’s entitled to her views but she isn’t a community spokesperson or elder so they carry no weight in a complex debate.

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 8:31am

...well she ain't as lonely on her stage as some would have you believe...

...including having marcia langton, the guru, by her side...

"...n a joint address on Thursday, the academic Marcia Langton, Alice Springs councillor Jacinta Price, and a member of the prime minister’s Indigenous advisory council, Josephine Cashman, called for a royal commission into the rates of Indigenous family violence and intimate partner homicide."

"...Cashman also criticised the recently announced third action plan to reduce violence against women and children.

“It recommends cases of violence against Indigenous women and children should be dealt with, ‘through activities that provide support for families and encourage behavioural change without resorting to police or courts’,” said Cashman.

“Forcing victims to resolve crimes perpetrated against them without going to the police will do nothing but feed the destructive culture of silence that allows criminals to gain power over communities through fear.”

"...Price, the daughter of the former NT minister Bess Price, had earlier detailed horrifying accounts of violence and cover-ups within Aboriginal communities.

From early in life Aboriginal people “learn to lie to keep the peace” amid rampant family violence, she said.

Price said the number of deaths due to homicide that had impacted her family were in the hundreds."

"...“So from early in life, everyone learns to lie to keep the peace. Which manifests into child and youth suicide and the continuation of a destructive cycle.”

She said Indigenous culture was used “as a tool” by perpetrators to defend their violence, or even as an excuse or reason for it.

“It is a national shame that in our recent history Aboriginal male perpetrators have got away with their crimes based on the argument that they were acting within their culture’s confines,” she said.

She said there was a lack of constructive criticism in Australia of “anything Indigenous”, and people were encouraged to maintain culture without change or evolution.

“Our leaders need to be held to account, just like everybody else in this country.”"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/nov...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/national-press-club/2016-11-17/nati...

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sypkan commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 8:36am

“So from early in life, everyone learns to lie to keep the peace. Which manifests into child and youth suicide and the continuation of a destructive cycle.”

"She said Indigenous culture was used “as a tool” by perpetrators to defend their violence, or even as an excuse or reason for it."

“It is a national shame that in our recent history Aboriginal male perpetrators have got away with their crimes based on the argument that they were acting within their culture’s confines,” she said.

"She said there was a lack of constructive criticism in Australia of “anything Indigenous”, and people were encouraged to maintain culture without change or evolution."

“Our leaders need to be held to account, just like everybody else in this country.”"

...seems it's a culture of facilitation that's developed. a culture of facilitation that would be super difficult for any community to give up

good intentions, bad outcomes...

what's that einstein said about doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome?

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 8:38am

"It’s not me she has to impress info it’s her mob and I suspect they told her to fuck off long ago. She’s entitled to her views but she isn’t a community spokesperson or elder so they carry no weight in a complex debate."

I don't know what support she has with her so called mob that I'm sure is dominated by male voices, but as you can see on the previous page she does have decent support over her whole electorate and even has support Australia wide, she is no different to any political leader she doesnt speak for everyone but she does speak for a lot of people.

Please Stunet give me an ignore button for Talking Turkey, Shatners Basoon, Dale Cooper, Factotum, Pupkin, and any new fake profile he decides to create.

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 10:24am

"...mob that I'm sure is dominated by male voices,..."

oh the irony!

preserving 'the patriachy', under the guise of 'culture'...

the patriachy, ...in all of it's worst forms...

( ...and 'cultural' developments!)

"She said there was a lack of constructive criticism in Australia of “anything Indigenous”, and people were encouraged to maintain culture without change or evolution."

blowfly's picture
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blowfly commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 8:57am

There is a vast difference between identifying a problem and being able to solve it. The issues being complained about have been called out by decades of indigenous leaders .....and have frequently been used by less sympathetic politicians, such as Hanson, to insult and belittle indigenous people and their culture. Personally my view is that non-indigenous people should stay out of the debate unless they have something beyond snide one upmanship to contribute.

blowfly's picture
blowfly's picture
blowfly commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 9:00am

Anyway back to the USA.

America 2020

America-2020

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 9:16am

its about disgust, disbelief, and frustration

not snide and one upmanship, I'll leave that to others...

blowfly's picture
blowfly's picture
blowfly commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 9:22am

"....its about disgust, disbelief, and frustration"

So your feelings (oh so sensitive! Not) justify patronising unhelpful comments like this?

"...oh the irony!

preserving 'the patriachy', under the guise of 'culture'..."

Well no they don't. They just label you as part of the problem.

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 9:29am

I don't think you conservative folk have grasped why Price and Cashman are "popular".
It's all about blame and and responsibility.
Do you ever wonder why the Uluru Statement From The Heart, created by genuine indigenous leaders, has gone nowhere? Ignored.
Have you lot ever wondered why these two are darlings of right wing talk back radio?
If our federal politicians actually listened to the real indigenous leaders, they'd actually have to take responsibility for the past and act to improve the situation for indigenous Australians. That would require genuine action, something Scotty from Marketing just doesn't do. He's not a problem solver.
The way the conservative media amplifying these indigenous non leaders, simply sheets all the blame on indigenous people themselves. Don't worry about it Whitey, you don't have to be part of any solution. No wonder the usual suspects lap that shit up.
Yes Price has raised the occasional useful point re domestic violence, but she's no indigenous leader. When she jumped into bed with a pack of absolute racist dogs, who are widely despised by indigenous Australians, she lost any pretence of speaking for indigenous people.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 9:32am

Info, my resurch tells me Price isn’t a politician nor a leader nor a member of a political party nor does she represent an electorate. She is a Councillor with the City of Alice Springs (1of 5 the others all male). Been to the Alice info? Big in your face problems there info so I get Price’s agenda as a local councillor, good luck to her I wish her well in improving things in the Alice, but she’s vocal on the national stage too I read and that’s why she gets a gig on Fox, now who would have thunked that? Has strong views on Australia Day and all ... darling of the right I read

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GuySmiley commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 9:30am

Burp not blip

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sypkan commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 10:43am

not sensitive at all, the disgust and disbelief is at certain stubborn beliefs, that have lead to a certain situation... none of it focussed on blackfellas at all

if you can't address the problem...

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 11:19am

I'm in on 'the uluru statement', or whatever you want to call it..

but I gotta say, it's pie in the sky stuff, a good initiative, a good sentiment, and perfectly legitimate in my eyes, but with buckley's chance of eventuating in the current climate

keep holding out... sure, ...but it's not gonna be the fix all its portrayed as

and anyway, there are many other 'wicked problems' that can't be ignored, problems decades in the making, problems that also (urgently) need addressing, now, yesterday...

but you keep on keeping holding out if you wish...

sellling blackfellas short in the process

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sypkan commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 11:13am
factotum's picture
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factotum commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 5:43pm

Well, I wouldn't go that far, Sepp.

Diamante Joe is just trying to eke out an existence. Then again, KAK got the boot from Studio Ten, so maybe he'll need to 'step it up'?

Ah, the media pool is certainly shallow and smells a bit like wee, wouldn't you agree fanboy?

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 2:13pm

its not about joe, it's about a pretty significant development

but continue with your mundanity if you must...

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 2:24pm

sypkan.
That meeting with Hanson and Price was in March. No shock that lots of photos were taken and press releases were issued.
Go do a google search and see if you can find any follow up action by Hanson or One Nation to reduce domestic violence in Indigenous communities. You'll find out that Hanson has done a lot of bad mouthing of indigenous people since march and fuck all about the problem Price raised. Nice photo shoot, bugger all results.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

blowfly's picture
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blowfly commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 2:33pm

'I'm Indigenous': Pauline Hanson's cringeworthy confrontation"

“As an Indigenous person, climbing Uluru is very disrespectful,” one member of the group said.

"The senator argued: “I’m Indigenous, I was born here, I’m native to the land. So, you know, I’m Australian as well, and I’m Indigenous.”

https://au.news.yahoo.com/pauline-hanson-confrontation-with-indigenous-g...

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 3:05pm

Hanson filed under Cockwombles of AU Politics in the filing cabinet ... its a thick file.

Had Cockwomble published in the Age yesterday to describe Trump, that's twice now!

factotum's picture
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factotum commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 4:08pm

Pauline! She's a writer and a scholar!

1st book:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3718966/A-look-inside-Pauline-H...

And a woman of principles! A later book:

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/detestable-tony-abbott-to-launch...

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Marx*

*Groucho

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 4:42pm

ewwww

that photo....

keep slamming pauline, and missing the point...

I don't give a fuck about pauline

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 4:54pm

Pauline is an easy target always has been always will be, i dont agree with everything she says some things she says i strongly disagree with, but of all the politicians out there she is the one i have the most respect for, for her fighting never give up spirit.

She hit the mainstream political scene and media spot light almost 25 years ago and for that whole time, the left and media and countless others have tried to bring her down, but she just keeps getting back up and fighting for what she believes in.

I think she even went to jail for a few years, but still came back for more, who else in politics has gone through so much and just keeps coming back for more?

And the fact she is a women in a male dominated scene makes it even more impressive.

Please Stunet give me an ignore button for Talking Turkey, Shatners Basoon, Dale Cooper, Factotum, Pupkin, and any new fake profile he decides to create.

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
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DudeSweetDudeSweet commented Monday, 14 Sep 2020 at 4:55pm

Pauline is immeasurably smarter than Facto.....prove me wrong.