Climate Change
blindboy wrote:Indo do you ever pause to consider that your views on the energy transition are pretty much in direct contradiction to those of the major energy intensive industries. While they see that net zero can be achieved, you apparently do not. They back.it up with detailed plans. You just assert an opinion with no evidence. Can you explain why you feel qualified to disagree with experts working in the field?
I have no idea how you have come to that conclusion?
My views are what the experts are saying. (but we should also note, experts also have varying agreement on some things)
Im very optimistic and positive about renewables, they will succeed becomes they make economic sense, I'm doing a new build and planned my roof line orientation completely around ensuring i get the most out of my solar panels, im also looking forward to the day i have an EV, super cheap to run and low maintenance..
IMHO the narrative in much of the media and public is very negative when it should be more positive ,Australia has already hit over 50% renewables at times recently and said to hit 100% at times by 2025, per captia we have the highest solar capacity in the world (ahead of Germany) our rate of renewable uptake is one of the fastest in the world.
The only area im skeptical on is the whole battery deal, the amount of batteries needed is crazy, no country is even remotely close most have minutes of capacity if that and mostly just to even out the grid, i think California is coming closest with their new battery capacity something like 6hrs for a certain number of homes.
There is heaps of different batteries being developed but its a bit wait and see, but relying on lithium/cobalt based batteries is problematic as the battery capacity needed world wide for EV,s and Storage far outstrips supply
Batteries are also only short term storage, you need a system that provides far more than 24hrs capacity, there is also times generally very hot or cold days where energy use can peak to crazy heights you need to factor in these things too, there is some very large challenges, but as Scomo has said technology advances are the things that will join these dots, hence you can only have a rough plan and not a detailed one.
Pumped hydro and other things will fill gaps but we are talking long term and even then you will need back up systems.
The view that gas peaking plants will play an important role in the transition is reality until they can be converted to run on hydrogen this is not my opinion, its the opinion of experts (but yeah even so called experts often disagree)
Here is a very recent example in Germany where even the Greens there are admitting Gas may need to play a role until Hydrogen can take up the slack
"Greens’ chief Annalena Baerbock spoke after Scholz at the event, suggesting the parties may have agreed to the role of gas following their exploratory talks in the past weeks.
“Our clear message: gas is needed for a bridge, but all technology that is now being built must be hydrogen-ready,” explained Baerbock, following Scholz’s speech.
Her readiness to accept gas as a transition fuel is a clear shift of the German Greens’ position, which may imply a compromise to accept gas as a lesser evil in exchange for concerted climate action at the EU level."
https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/future-german-c...
Even this recent Guardian article bagging the government agrees.
"It starts with a complete shift to clean energy in electricity supply. In Australia, the cost-effective power system of the future is a mix of solar and wind power, with energy storage in batteries and pumped-hydro plants, and gas plants at the ready for occasional use when needed"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/02/australia-could-be...
BTW. Ive never suggested Net Zero is not possible, reducing emissions to zero is impossible, but net zero is possible because those emissions you can never stop will be offset.
So you believe, the well publicised commitment of Australia's largest electricity user the Tomago Aluminium smelter to 100% renewables by 2029 is impossible without gas?
Also the idea that a diesel generator is more reliable than a back up battery is hard to square with the large number of moveable parts they contain.
I don't know anything about the smelter or smelters and ive never commented on them before, but id be guessing its going to be running during day when there is the energy supply produced by renewables and very minimal operations at night, id assume just keeping the lights on and keeping things at stand by operational temps id assume mostly relying on wind?, but like i said i know nothing about this issue, ive barely even read an article on it.
I would have assumed in the future hydrogen would be what powers them?
In regard to batteries and generators, its not that either is more reliable than the other but it just common sense to have back up systems, in the same way that if you didnt have solar and batteries and ran on generators you would have a second generator as a back up to the first even three generators, and ideally if running swap between both every so many hours to minimise over heating and ensure constant maintenance etc
Batteries are also generally short term storage, a generator especially two or three alternating can provide long term energy only limited by fuel, they are two very different things, In the same way batteries and hydrogen are two different things.
For example you live in the outback off grid
Solar with batteries with no back up system is high risk, what if a storm comes through or something and your set up gets badly damaged your then in trouble the repair guy might not be able to fix it for weeks, or you have a week of black skys and heavy rain and your batteries get no charge but you have freezers full of food etc, then what?
The smart option is to have solar with batteries and at minimum a back up generator ideally two with a decent fuel supply.
BTW. I understand these aspects because i lived on Fraser Island for a few years all houses there rely on solar, batteries and generators my best mate there oversaw about twenty houses rentals and i was second in charge at this place and had to overseas all energy produced, water, sewage and a whole host of other aspects for about twenty house and other facilities https://www.fraserislandbeachhouses.com.au
Same deal in Indo i managed a remote resort there for a season and had to ensure staff in charge of generators and water supply etc and now im still involved in ensuring my friend in the Telos does these things too. (im pushing hard to get solar on too, but Covid has fucked that up for a while)
You always need back up systems and a back up system for the back up system.
Numerous inconsistencies and assumptions there Indo. To pick just a couple ; smelters run 24/7 and why is battery capacity assumed to be less than fuel storage capacity? I would have though it far easier for remote communities to install extra panels and batteries than rely on limited fuel storage capacity and regular deliveries capable of being disrupted and vulnerable to significant price variation.
Because battery capacity is super expensive to build up you physically need large and expensive batteries if you wanted a weeks worth of battery capacity to ensure you get by, thats a huge investment and something hard to justify if only needed once or twice a year.
Fuel can be stored much much easier a huge fuel tank is not that expensive in the scheme of things.
BTW. Im not suggesting running on fuel 24/7 im talking back up systems, and not putting all your eggs in one basket.
"Fuel can be stored much much easier a huge fuel tank is not that expensive in the scheme of things."
....but you have to pay to fill it. Once you have a battery and sufficient panels there are no further costs. What is it about burning stuff that so appeals to you?
How much fuel supply does Australia have? If imports were to cease we'd only last 2 weeks? (from memory).
I just had an epiphany, the next great Australian invention, brought to you by Scott Morrison and his good mate Barnaby. A coal powered car. They'd love it. No more relying on other countries for fuel, we've got plenty here. No need to worry about other countries not buying our coal, we can power our cars with it.
Wouldn't count it out with this lot
It’s interesting, and a bit disconcerting, watching Greta Thunberg being positioned as the Jesus Christ of climate change. The ultimate astroturfing promotional tour which will take a decade before her shouty shouts are taken as irrefutable and unrefusable dictates.
She’s not the Messiah…..she’s the product of an intricately planned and executed political effort.
gragagan wrote:I just had an epiphany, the next great Australian invention, brought to you by Scott Morrison and his good mate Barnaby. A coal powered car. They'd love it. No more relying on other countries for fuel, we've got plenty here. No need to worry about other countries not buying our coal, we can power our cars with it.
Wouldn't count it out with this lot
No one can deny the romance of a ride through the country side on a coal powered steam train. Imagine how happy we’d all be if we all drove steam powered cars! Load up the picnic basket, a blanket , lashings of ginger beer and steam off into the rolling hills powered by Newcastle’s finest export*!
* Not counting Miss Surfest or Matt Hoy.
we have the technology ;)
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parlia...
Blowin wrote:gragagan wrote:I just had an epiphany, the next great Australian invention, brought to you by Scott Morrison and his good mate Barnaby. A coal powered car. They'd love it. No more relying on other countries for fuel, we've got plenty here. No need to worry about other countries not buying our coal, we can power our cars with it.
Wouldn't count it out with this lotNo one can deny the romance of a ride through the country side on a coal powered steam train. Imagine how happy we’d all be if we all drove steam powered cars! Load up the picnic basket, a blanket , lashings of ginger beer and steam off into the rolling hills powered by Newcastle’s finest export*!
* Not counting Miss Surfest or Matt Hoy.
Yep just have to load up the box trailer with coal, shovel ready haha
Fliplid wrote:we have the technology ;)
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parlia...
I was being sarcastic (obviously), but after watching that video the idea has merit. It's not an internal combustion engine, reportedly has less dangerous emissions, less emissions overall, and can run on just about anything that burns. So you could assume that it would run on hydrogen
blindboy wrote:"Fuel can be stored much much easier a huge fuel tank is not that expensive in the scheme of things."
....but you have to pay to fill it. Once you have a battery and sufficient panels there are no further costs. What is it about burning stuff that so appeals to you?
Solar (even wind) and batteries are great, but they have limitations because they are not a fuel you need to safe guard against these limitations and not put all your eggs in one basket.
We don't have a whole heap of Hydro or any Nuclear so we will need other support measures, gas in the transition period and hydrogen in the long run.
This is not my opinion, it's what experts are saying and makes complete sense.
Blind One - I have just logged on and see that you ARE LYING ? Why when it is so EASY to check ?
You said again ( last time you linked the article ) "the well publicised commitment of Australia's largest electricity user the Tomago Aluminium smelter to 100% renewables by 2029".
You know this is total BS . I gave you my response to the CEO's view that IF we can get the price of renewable energy DOWN we HOPE the numbers will add up and we CAN get to 100% by 2029 . If that is a commitment I am Bill Gates .
I told you at the time that saying 29 , not 28 , not 30 was CEO speak which is totally unreliable . That RIO was trying to get some good publicity for the ESG investment community to digest after they blew up the sacred site .
Re post the article so EVERYONE can see if you are right and your are not a deliberate BSer .
You have will lose all credibility with me unless you correct this mistake .
As you know that is not a big worry for you as there is little credibility left . Maybe you will do it to keep some cred in the SN community ?
In 200 years time people are going to look back and wonder why we were so crazy to have supercar and formula one races wasting all that fuel. Fossil fuels that could be used for other things..
Hutchy you don't have a clue same old negative LNP talk
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gragagan wrote:Fliplid wrote:we have the technology ;)
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parlia...
I was being sarcastic (obviously), but after watching that video the idea has merit. It's not an internal combustion engine, reportedly has less dangerous emissions, less emissions overall, and can run on just about anything that burns. So you could assume that it would run on hydrogen
what a great (but bit depressing) story
shipped to the US, because they were interested in lower emiisions vehicles no less...
where did it all go so wrong?
I remember my old man talking about hydrogen powered cars being proposed 40 - 50 years ago...
he was anti-greeny everything! ...but thought it an absolute disgrace the oil industry shut down this technology...
Same with my old man haha, told me the same thing when I was little. He did his mechanic (diesel fitter) apprenticeship when he was 15, he was taught about hydrogen engines back then, over 50 years ago. Any new advancements shut down by big oil. He's anti greeny too
Grag - please show me were in the article to CEO made a commitment . Even if I have no idea about Climate Change I have a pretty good idea on how to read and interpret CEO speak.
I am pretty sure you have no CLUE what is in the article or even what it is all about and just keep pasting an old comment .
Mr Howell (Tomago Smelter CEO):
“Our goal would be, by 2029, that the largest load in Australia is, for all intents and purposes, 100 per cent renewable,” Mr Howell told The Australian Financial Review.
“There’s further improvements on the cost of the equation to go before firmed renewables is a viable option for us, but we are perpetually optimistic; I think we will get there.”
https://www.afr.com/policy/energy-and-climate/tomago-aluminium-to-go-gre...
There's still a way to go but good on them for making a commitment.
Gragagan - good work and I apologise for saying you would not what was in the article .
I was wrong .
Unfortunately I don't see a goal that requires improvements on variables outside the control of the CEO as a ( firm ) commitment . He is only optimistic . I can be optimistic but I would not be willing to make a commitment .
The CEO will not be the CEO in 2029 . It won't be his job to deliver on his goal . Things are too often easier to say than do .
Sorry but I still stand with my accusation that the Blind One deliberately lied/BSed and or misrepresented the CEO's comment . He did not deliver a " the well publicised commitment of Australia's largest electricity user".
Blowin - please don't speak badly of Greta . I really do like her a lot after listening to a number of her interviews . A very sensible young women who "talks the talk but is also WILLING to walk the walk ".
Very rare as we know .
@ BB
Had a little read on the Tomago smelter, interesting to read about, clearly not about just solar/wind & batteries though.
AUGUST 11, 2021
"Tomago Aluminium is reportedly in discussions with suppliers for solar, wind and hydro power, but will require a reliable backup generator to ensure uninterrupted supply. Noting the fire at Neoen’s big battery in Geelong last month, the company’s CEO voiced concerns about both commercial viability and technical risks of battery storage, about which he remains skeptical.
Instead of opting for that path, Tomago Aluminium may contract with Snowy Hydro’s proposed Kurri Kurri gas power plant, saying the current cost of around $70/MWh for firmed renewable electricity would put the smelter out of business.
The Tomago Aluminium boss did, however, note the rapid pace of change around renewables, adding that by the time the company’s AGL contract expires in 2028, there may be more enticing clean options available."
https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2021/08/11/nsws-largest-electricit...
gragagan wrote:How much fuel supply does Australia have? If imports were to cease we'd only last 2 weeks? (from memory).
I think from memory we bought large reserves but for some strange reason we store it in the US.
This recent video is pretty interesting, it's pretty easy to write fusion off as a pipe dream, but they sure have invested a lot of time and money in it and long term too so they must really believe its one day possible, seems like even with renewables it's the energy holy grail.
gragagan: “Same with my old man haha, told me the same thing when I was little. He did his mechanic (diesel fitter) apprenticeship when he was 15, he was taught about hydrogen engines back then, over 50 years ago. Any new advancements shut down by big oil.”
and sypkan
I’ve heard similar stories during the 80’s as well. Like Indos video shows there are a number of different projects and concepts floating around and no doubt once the influence of the oil industry is pushed aside there are going to be solutions developed.
Especially considering the huge amount of investments being directed towards them
Blind one- As Indo has reminded me of the articles contents "the company’s AGL contract expires in 2028, there may be more enticing clean options available."
So ONE year before the companies "well publicised commitment " to be using 100% renewable their contract with AGL expires . In the year he hopes their will be more enticing options as the current one would put them out of business . He hopes that they might be able to use some hydro .
As I have to repeatedly say to you this is not a REAL world commitment . Unless the next CEO is god he has Buckley's chance of doing the work in ONE year .
The CEO is BSing . He is just after a bit of Green love from gullible people like you and the ESG investment community . Again I say "please wake up ".
No wonder their was a bit of a stench after the the Climate summit .
"He is supposed to be committed to reducing emissions – but when President Joe Biden produced a little natural gas of his own at the COP26 summit, it was audible enough to make the Duchess of Cornwall blush.
An informed source has told The Mail on Sunday that Camilla was taken aback to hear Biden break wind as they made polite small talk at the global climate change gathering in Glasgow last week.
'It was long and loud and impossible to ignore,' the source said. 'Camilla hasn't stopped talking about it.'
Go outside Hutchy.
Have a watch.
The short film—recently screened to politicians and scientific experts at the opening of the COP26 summit in Glasgow—flicks through timezones, showing different locations on earth being hammered by the devastating effects of climate change.
Message aside i love watch Danny MacAskill clips, always raising the bar with freakish skill.
Wow, incredible.
Lembongan, Cennigan and Nusa Penida are 3 islands surrounded by strong ocean currents that never stop and I’d always thought if there was a way of harnessing that energy it would be a great energy source . These islands get their electricity from Nusa penida and it’s not always reliable. They tried running a cable from Bali but dropped it in 400 meters instead of 200 and the project was a disaster and scrapped. There’s alot of small islands in Indonesia that could benefit from this technology and it would be nice to see the government get behind this . https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/interactive/2021/cop26-...
Good stuff supa. First trip to Lembongan we crossed the Lombok strait at night in an outrigger and a solid swell. I don't remember being scared....probably because I was too young and ignorant.
Good stuff supa. First trip to Lembongan we crossed the Lombok strait at night in an outrigger and a solid swell. I don't remember being scared....probably because I was too young and ignorant.
Just a reminder of how to effectively reduce emissions.
Let me guess………that dip had something to do with some sort of federal government policy?
Nice to know we are keeping up with India and Brazil in our climate ambitions!
"Nearly 200 countries have made an unprecedented and historic pledge at the COP26 climate summit to speed up the end of fossil fuel subsidies and reduce the use of coal, after India pushed through an 11th hour intervention to weaken the language on coal.
Crucially, despite almost a fortnight’s negotiations that ran more than 24 hours late, the 196 countries meeting in Glasgow committed to issuing stronger 2030 climate plans next year in a bid to avert dangerous global warming.
Pledges at COP26 are expected to see Earth warm 2.4°C this century, better than the predicted 2.7°C predicted before the summit but still a rise that would bring extreme climate impacts and see countries overshoot their shared goals of 1.5°C and “well below” 2°C.
The promise to “revisit and strengthen” new plans by the end of 2022 means the UK government hosting the summit can credibly claim to have delivered its aim of “keeping alive” the 1.5°C target. “It is a big moment,” says Chris Stark of the Climate Change Committee, an independent group that advises the UK government.
Fresh plans submitted next year for curbing emissions in 2030 must be aligned with the 1.5°C goal, an important new requirement that means those governments who fall short will have to justify why to their citizens. Australia, Brazil and Indonesia are among many countries whose existing plans are inadequate and will need to be strengthened."
Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2297452-cop26-world-agrees-to-phase...
So who pumped out the GGs?
Doesn't look as impressive here
BTW. Notice our reduction line is similar to NZ
https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/australia?country=AUS~USA~GBR~NZL...
Rivian - 3rd largest automaker in the world after the IPO, while recording $0 in revenue.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/16/cars/rivian-value-tesla-toyota-vw/ind...
Nice work if you can get it.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/18/the-forgotten-oil-ad...
Nothing particularly new here, but it does sharpen the disgust.
Anybody interested in learning more about the oil / tobacco / chemical / defense industries unholy infiltration of academic institutions could do worse than reading 'Merchants of Doubt' by Naomi Oreskes & Erik Conway.
The techniques described in the book have parallels with the way the CCP has set about influencing academic and political life in western countries (see the book 'Hidden Hand' for details of CCP influence peddling).
Your democracy, academia and environment are all on sale.
Take the hydro out of green hydrogen? Is that just an oxymoron or a clever play on words? And I did wonder about all that water,
"In Tasmania Wind Farm projects threatening to impact Aboriginal sites, Tasmania devils and rare migratory birds"
The biggest opponent to the very things he should be supporting, it's down right weird.
Tim Flannery on COP26
"Australia has been a blocker of action on climate change ever since Tony Abbott became prime minister in 2013. At every subsequent COP, Australia has aligned itself with the likes of Saudi Arabia and Russia to protect the wealth it accrues through exporting oil and gas, regardless of the consequences for the world. I’ve attended six COPs and have watched on in deep shame as Australia argues that the money earned through its fossil fuel exports is more important than the survival of its low-lying Pacific neighbours such as Tuvalu. Sadly, Australia acted no differently at COP26. What was different, however, was the near universal disgust Australia earned in response.
The Australian pavilion was set up much like a coffee shop and it quickly became known as the best place in the entire sprawling venue to get coffee. It also quickly became notorious for its lack of an Indigenous presence, and for the prevalence of displays and talks supporting fossil fuels. For the few days that Prime Minister Scott Morrison and Minister for Emissions Reduction Angus Taylor graced the meeting, there was even a large installation demonstrating how the gas company Santos intended to use carbon capture and storage as they accessed more gas from central Australia. The fact that it vanished soon after Taylor left the meeting suggests that at least some Australians have a sense of shame. It may have been just bad luck, but I saw neither Morrison nor Taylor at the COP. I waited all afternoon at the Australian pavilion one day to hear a press conference by Taylor, but he never showed up. The gossip was that the presence of bushfire survivor Jo Dodds scared him off."
https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2021/11/20/australia-t...
https://www.trucksales.com.au/editorial/details/linfox-gets-its-second-f....
Great for Linfox. It can be done. https://t.co/Ttx35BjNc6
— Prof. Peter Doherty (@ProfPCDoherty) November 22, 2021
Up to 200km before recharge. 9 hour recharge. Non refrigerated. Around town deliveries that’s ok and if all their urban fleet goes that way it would reduce their emissions a lot
Interesting wonder how places like Indonesia compare
.