The App
Well Cromwell and Indo is 2 in for the app, I,m out for sure but 2/3 will be fine, even more than the 40 % they are hoping for. Did you both sign up to the My Health also FWIW? The Gov computer crowd cant run a census online, nor voting nor online schooling even (naplan, current issues with online classes it would seem ) what makes you think this wont be be the same? Thats not even starting on all the things that could go wrong with hacking and big brother policing later on down the line. Selfish or just cautious?
Look out, Cromwell’s patented and self-confessed hysterical appeals to emotion are here again.
How dare you Mike, that’s a highly offensive slur against doctors and teachers :)
Personal attacks? Sure sign of a losing argument and a good reason to end my contribution here. Go chat with those who enjoy exchanging insults. There are a few on here.
The thing that people have to remain vigilant about is allowing the public to be wedged into a “for or against the virus “ scenario surrounding the uptake of an app.
Just because you don’t wish to take a single voluntary step towards a system which mirrors the social credit system used in a certain dystopian dictatorship, doesn’t mean you’re not wholeheartedly committed to combating the virus.
@mikehunt207
Wasn't that My health thing and opt out not opt in thing?
Personally i think that is a very sensible system that should have been brought in years ago.
Sorry Andy. I forgot to post this.
The Libertarian Impulse
“Libertarians seek to maximize political freedom and autonomy, emphasizing freedom of choice, voluntary association and individual judgement. Libertarians share a skepticism of authority and state power, but they diverge on the scope of their opposition to existing economic and political systems.” Wikipedia
It sounds like a good idea and perhaps in some utopian future, it would be. It would even be a good idea here and now if we were rational beings, but we are not. Yet it has never been more fashionable. The most obvious manifestation of this is the increased skepticism of all authority in areas such as science, politics and economics. Credit amongst peers is now, it seems, increased by dismissing all expert opinion. There is a saying about babies and bathwater applicable here.
A healthy degree of skepticism is justified by the regular blunders and dishonesty of our politicians, the distortions of popular science and the greed of our corporations. It becomes unhealthy when all trust in politics, science and corporate responsibility disappears. The irony is that by becoming totally skeptical many simultaneously become totally gullible.
5G caused the current epidemic. Vaccines are a conspiracy between the WHO and big pharma. Climate change is a conspiracy by the illuminati to impoverish us. Governments are n ot to be trusted in even their most vasic functions..... and people believe this nonsense when it is just hot air sprouted by spruikers seeking a moment in the global limelight from which, if they take their opportunities, they can become wealthy. They are the modern equivalent of the snake oil salesman, the huckster, the purveyor of the three card trick. In short they are profiteers who simply do not care about the consequences of their actions.
Babies die in the Samoan measles epidemic. People ignore the pandemic procedures that are saving hundreds of thousands of lives. People continue to vote for politicians who support the fossil fuel industry. Lies have consequences. Ignorance and superstition undermine good governance.
It is axiomatic that fashions ignore reason. Periwigs and cod pieces alone suggest that, as do countless other absurdities from foot binding to jeans hanging below the buttocks. None of these matter much but when the fashion becomes to suspend critical thinking we are in trouble. Consider its definition: the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgement.
Objective analysis involves considering all the evidence. Evaluation involves weighting each element of the evidence. From these processes you arrive at a judgement. If you refuse to accept this as a guiding method then you are back in the days of astrology, studying the internal organs of beasts or any of the other methods of predicting our fate that succesfully plunged the ancient world into the dark ages and kept it there until the enlightenment.
In the current pandemic, the vast majority of the population are not qualified to find all the evidence, understand it or evaluate it but they can apply critical thinking to select their sources of information. This does not mean mindlessly accepting things. In fact it means the exact opposite. It does not require much in the way of research skills to gather the evidence about the credibility of various sources, nor does it take any great skills in evaluation to weigh up the competing claims.
If people are unwilling to make these efforts they should not be making or spreading claims about the pandemic. Remember that free speech ends at the call of “FIRE” in a crowded theatre and that, in these times, that includes casting doubt on the procedures that a minimal level of critical thought will establish as the best way to deal with this epidemic.
@ Indo ,sorry my bad , so did you opt out ? I think this app is an opt in but in or out the decision is still yours to make.
@cromwell, not a personal insult, a question. Sounds like a no ?
Yes it was, which was why it seemed so cynical.
"Implementation of the $1.5bn My Health Record system failed to appropriately manage cybersecurity risks, a review by the national audit office has found.
The review found implementation was “largely effective”, but revealed the government agency could not guarantee that all “emergency access” requests to view an individual’s record were legitimate, and that four privacy reviews funded since it became an “opt-out” system were never finished."
I believe everyone is on the My health system unless you requested not to be.
Are you serious Chromewell?
A healthy concern about government over-reach being compared to 5G and anti-vac conspiracy theories?
It's hilarious when you get all shrill and hysterical, it's pretty entertaining.
"Just because you don’t wish to take a single voluntary step towards a system which mirrors the social credit system used in a certain dystopian dictatorship, doesn’t mean you’re not wholeheartedly committed to combating the virus."
Except in the (blinded) eyes of some.
"the modern equivalent of the snake oil salesman, the huckster, the purveyor of the three card trick."
Or the irrational stooge who thinks that unlimited immigration into Australia is good for the environment.
Now that's hucksterism.
Metadata
MyHealth
Census
Robodebt
Cash less welfare card
Virus App.
Everyone should still be going to rock concerts and the footy....I know I will be !
Ruby princess ( anyone else heard the rumour that there was a federal politician’s relatives on board ? )
Ban on cash over $10K ( so far ! )
RC into unions
Journalists arrested
War on Iraq
Conscription for Vietnam
Etc
Etc
I don't think anyone has said unlimited immigration is good for the environment?
Blindboy did some time back - it was a pretty shocking attempt to justify his beliefs.
Actually it was a year ago almost to the day.
This is what I said:
“Doesn't BB love a good tanty when his ideals are picked to pieces?!
You can almost set your watch by it.
They'd be a lot more persuasive if they were logical, coherent and consistent.
And didn't rely on his self-confessed appeals to emotion.”
Set your watch by it alright, set your calendar too.
Personal attack. As usual.
No attempt to address the issues of substance such as the credibility of the public servants producing and administering the app. No attempt to discredit the epidemiological evidence. Just personal insults and the usual shallow pathetic libertarian agenda. Nothing positive. Always critical. Always attaching the person not the issue. Arrogant assertion backed up by an intellectual vacuum that would do credit to Trump.
So we keep going and wake Ben and Stu up to tell you naughty little children to cease the ad hominem nonsense.? That’s the usual strategy when you are unable to come up with any sensible arguments.
Hey Andy .....get any waves today ?
Man , it was ridiculously flat here. Gloriously flat !
So flat that it’s a beautiful thing just admiring the lack of energy .
Ombak malas !
Incredible water though. Fish going crazy. Wahoo, Spaniards but also some consistently nice snapper getting around.
Perfect combination of current, moon , weather and seasons.
Great day.
“Always attaching the person not the issue. ”
Does this sound familiar?
“fuck off!" Smug self-righteous prats with no real interest beyond self-interest. See ya boys, 'cos that's what you are, a bunch of overgrown fucking adolescents.”
Mate as I keep saying, you’re a hypocrite with zero self awareness.
Blowin, had a few tiny leftovers this morning, the biggest thrill was dodging the rocks that popped up as the tide dropped.
Been a good week of surf though, hope you got some.
Definitely want to get the fishing gear and boat out now that it’s gone flat.
Wish I knew something about trolling for pelagics but realistically I’ll spin for tailor off the shore and flick plastics for flathead and whatever from the boat.
Can you recommend any YouTube vids for offshore trolling?
The Libertarian Impulse:It would even be a good idea here and now if we were rational beings,but we are not.????
Totally skeptical =simultaneously totally gullible????
This is propaganda.Are we not rational beings?Am I allowed to be skeptical?Nothing personal as i appreciate everyone's opinion but i don't need an app to tell me how to live.no thanks shove it up your app!!
Might want to read more about the app. It doesn't tell you how to live.
Gents the horse has bolted unfortunately for most of you that upload apps onto your smart phones, use visa/mastercard/paypal, etc, etc. Your information is out there and you are being tracked by commercial concerns anyway every single day. I think the app has it's merits for the safety of the community as a whole, but I'm going to go the pessimistic route that the government will end up trying to polish a turd in this instance.
Cromwell, Indo Dreaming et al, its interesting to read your landing on this. The good thing is its an overt thing as opposed to covert. However, everyone with a phone is tracked. At 1.5m distancing it becomes far easier to identify individuals especially with facial recognition from fixed cameras / drones etc, which is where it will go. This APP is the first step at getting us conditioned for the next wave. Low uptake, the next wave of supposed virus will bring in the next steps. We've all heard the language 'you didn't comply so we shut the beaches...rant rant' . To bring in facial recognition, micro chipping etc is a big step, it just wont fly in one step but if you stage creep it in step by step it will be here in no time. How easy it is...
And it will impact your social credit score if you don’t comply.
I don't believe that is true, but let's just say for arguments sake some of that was.
What would be the issue? (bar micro chipping)
Why would you have an issue with something like facial recognition?
I personally have no issue with those type of things that only makes society a safer place, especially for children and women like surveillance cameras in public they are already in public places and private buildings.
Facial recognition, dont they already have that in casinos or something? i dont have an issue with that i cant see a negative, i can only see positives.
I think the only decent argument against these things is that it becomes misused by others, but im not even sure how it can be misused?
Probably opening a can of worms with those questions.
BTW my mum puts a bit of tape over the camera on her lap top as thinks people will hack into her computer and watch her, no idea why they would want too, but maybe you guys should also tape over your cameras.
Google Chinese social credit system and get back to me.
You don’t know what’s wrong with it because you don’t know anything about it.
It’s an authoritarian’s wet dream so you will understand why some on here are dampening their gussets.
Argh to me that's the same mindset as people thinking Australia is going to have Sharia law because we have an islamic population in Australia
It's never going to happen, even if there was a group of people that wanted the system .
Blowin, I'm borrowing your argument....
You don't know what's wrong with the app because you don't know anything about it.
Yeah it's as crazy as outlawing cash pay packets so everything has to go through banks and they charge fees raking in billions.
Backing people into a corner like that will never happen.
Onus of proof is on the government.
Indo facial recognition and micro-chips are absolutely not in your or humanities best interest. First they are motivated by fear. Second they are motivated by control & dependence and third, when you are pricked, prodded, chipped probably likely at birth, how far have you come from that infinite expression of love, peace and light that you were once destined for? You are miles off track and our chances of getting it back are dust.
And this happened because we're all honest people?
Might want to change your banking institution if they're charging you to keep your cash.
All of your posts are motivated by fear, Shortenism.
Fear of the state, fear of medicos, fear of technology. Relax (big) brother!
Life ain't that bad and being pessimistic ain't going to help us.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
Beat me too it Johknee.
Im not sure why people are even talking about micro chips?
This is an app on your phone, that you can delete if you like.
Im seriously surprised by the paranoia and tin hat outlook by posters here and elsewhere, you people sound like born again christians that think this is the some first step to the mark of the beast.
BTW. if you want to talk about freedoms, no time in history has so many of the world's population had their freedoms taken away, taken away by the government yes by a virus, if anything an app helps bring back freedoms not take them away. (i cant even go fishing here in Vic)
If you have so little confidence in your fellow Australians that you believe a large group of scientists, engineers and public servants would conspire with the government to deceive the public about a technology designed to save lives in the midst of a pandemic, maybe you should think about moving somewhere you would have greater trust in the people and the national institutions.
You really haven't been paying attention have you Johknee?
Haha, another Chromewell patented strawman argument, bringing a whole lot of emotional irrelevance - "how dare you, my father worked for blah blah blah"
Keep huffing Chromey.
Here are a few reasons why this government in particular shouldn't be given any power over data and information
Legislation
- A mass surveillance data retention regime, legislated despite no evidence it would assist law enforcement or counter-terrorism.
- Long jail terms for people, including journalists, who reveal intelligence operations, with a personal power to launch prosecutions in the hands of the attorney-general.
- “Insider threat” laws further reducing the already-limited capacity of intelligence officials to reveal criminality or misconduct.
- Two royal commissions established to pursue political opponents, and a permanent anti-trade union government body designed to inflict damage on Labor figures
.
- Currently before parliament — a significant expansion of secrecy laws that allows people to be prosecuted merely for viewing or republishing leaked information.
- Soon to be before Parliament: a “papers please” law under which the AFP would have the power to stop and demand ID of anyone in an area designated as an “airport”.
- Soon to be before parliament: an expansion of the government’s powers to plant malware on phones and computers to undermine encryption.
- Proposed by bureaucrats: giving the Australian Signals Directorate the capacity to surveil and plant malware on devices within Australia, breaking a decades-long restriction.
Intimidation
- The ABC is the target of a barrage of vexatious complaints about its public affairs coverage, with individual journalists such as Emma Alberici taking on “enemy of the state” status and being repeatedly targeted. The ABC also had its funding cut by $250 million in 2014 and a further $80 million in the most recent budget.
- The government’s NBN board ordered Federal Police to hunt down whistleblowers who embarrassed NBN by revealing internal information. In 2016, the AFP, with an NBN official participating, raided the offices and homes of staff of Stephen Conroy and raided parliament to access emails to journalists.
- Immigration repeatedly ordered the AFP to investigate leaks revealing its bungling and negligence in offshore detention centres.
- In 2017, after blogger Andie Fox criticised the Centrelink robo-debt scandal, Alan Tudge and his bureaucrats handed her private information to a Fairfax freelancer to attack her and her family publicly; the government’s “Privacy Commissioner” then declared the actions of the minister and his officials to be appropriate.
- The long-running saga of Witness K and his lawyer, Bernard Collaery, both of whom acted legally and in compliance with advice from the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security in revealing a sordid, illegal act by ASIS in East Timor. Both continue to face harassment by the government.
- Leaks from intelligence agencies aimed at the Chinese connections of Labor figures, while strong links between Beijing-aligned actors and the Liberals are ignored.
Yeah John and Indo, I will accept that what I am saying is motivated by fear of an obvious agenda at play. But will you accept the agenda I fear is motivated by control and dependence is being implemented freely (actually in your two cases promoted) by fear? In short lets agree fear is present?
Indo, people are talking about micro-chips because its a natural progression. It starts with an app, which ties to your phone, which you carry everywhere? It will then progress to a band, like a watch or something similar like an ankle bracelet and then eventually move to an inserted chip or tattoo of sorts. I mean with a mandatory vaccination how else will it be visible that you have had it? Do you have a dog? Tattooed in the ear for being de-sexed? Micro-chipped? This isn't new. Surely, you can see this? Musk has been talking about connecting the human brain to AI for years. He's also releasing many low orbit satellite's, which will help connect all this up.
& before you say it. Yep you couldn't make this shit up!!
Um you know it's a social distancing app?
And no sorry it's not a natural progression from social distancing app to microchipping, even if you want to link them somehow. .
@AndyM
No offence but with that post you seriously sound like a complete paranoid tin hat nut case. (i hope you cut and pasted those points from somewhere)
Especially some of you concerns on your list?...worried about being able to be stopped for ID at an airport? or dont think it should be illegal to pass on leaked documents?
"Keep huffing Chromey." OK Andy Pandy. FFS grow up and stop dragging the forums down into insults. You're worse than (name deleted to preserve the peace) these days.
I wouldn't either, Andy.
No conspiracy theory about it. It's just that drastic measures for drastic times tend to linger, after everyone has forgotten about them.
And all of a sudden they're the new normal - the Overton Window has shifted.
I'd say those who are saying don't fear the app are those who....um....don't fear the gubberment.
Sure, a lot of Australians distrust the government and I understand why. The app needs to be tested and shown to be effective and the government need to be sensitive to privacy concerns. But there's a lot of information online about the app (what it does/doesn't do) and I think the government are being transparent.
I'm all for scepticism, but I'm calling bullshit on the paranoia.
Andy I accept your list as accurate. The government cannot be trusted but the public service can to a much greater degree and this app has already been reviewed by an independent security organisation. The government have also committed to releasing the source code. As you point out surveillance in Australia is expanding by stealth. This is not stealth. This is high profile and obvious. Why risk it? And I have a lot of faith in the average public servant. I believe the vast majority are highly ethical and would not be involved in some sort of covert surveillance carried out in direct contradiction to the legislation approving it. You mention witness K as one whistle blower, there are plenty of others. For Morrison to be caught out on this after having his credibility shredded in the bushfire crisis woud be the end of his career. There is no way he will take that risk for such minimal benefit.
.