"standard contact tracing is totally fine for the very low levels of virus we have in the community, for now.
I'd much rather see taxpayer money spent on that then giving amazon millions of our dollars for data that we will never get back."
Probably the most logical comment made on this thread yet.
I would have concerns about Amazon getting the contract but the data is yours and stays in your phone unless you release it. Standard contact tracing relies on memory and, even allowing for the Bluetooth problems, is almost certainly going to be less comprehensive than the app. At this stage, as the epidemic in Australia subsides the concern is that clusters will still occur as asymptomatic carriers pass the infection to more vulnerable people. A high uptake of the app in the community in which the cluster occurred would be a huge advantage. The risk is that an infected individual from one cluster can very quickly start a new cluster elsewhere. If this process is not controlled then we will have a second wave. I am very optimistic about our ability to control the epidemic and even eradicate the virus within Australia. The app will simply speed the process up and reduce the number of deaths........and the life saved by you having the app is most likely to be yours.
What about these points in the same article AndyM?
"The revelation that this information is to be held by Amazon's cloud service — Amazon Web Services (AWS), the world's largest cloud service, which operates under US law — may spark further concern.
AWS is subject to a raft of invasive US national security legislation, including the CLOUD Act, a 2018 law compelling US-based technology companies to provide data to federal law enforcement under warrant, regardless of whether the data is held in the US or overseas.
However, a spokesman for Mr Robert said the US CLOUD Act did not apply to Australian data.
"Keeping Australian data in Australia will be guaranteed through a determination through the Biosecurity Act and legislation," he said.
"It will be a criminal offence to transfer data to any country other than Australia. A penalty of imprisonment for five years and/or 300 penalty units ($63,000) could apply to breaches of the direction.
"This is exactly the same way the Australian Government already uses AWS for many other agencies, including the work of our intelligence agencies, including ASD, and ensures Australian data stays in Australia."
I thought you didn't trust the ABC, then why cherry pick parts of their article?
Keep tin-foilin' bruddah!
It's all yours Joh, for me there's more than enough doubt surrounding this, not to mention whether it's an efficient use of taxpayer's money at this stage of the game.
As for the US CLOUD Act not applying to Australian data, if you want to trust in that, you go for it.
You probably believed the US when it signed a treaty with Britain saying "Extradition shall not be granted if the offense for which extradition is requested is a political offense."
I mean, the US is totes trustworthy.
Just out of interest Andy, no wind up intended, what sources of information and institutions do you trust?
Professional consensus is a good start, no?
Maybe separating some sort of fact from assertion?
For example, Johknee accused me of cherrypicking from that ABC article but surely it's obvious what can be accepted as fact.
"The Department of Home Affairs, which is principally responsible for border protection and national security, ran the tender for the app, rejected local applicants and went with Amazon.
Issuing the contract to Amazon may also mean the Australian data is obtainable by US law enforcement under a 2018 law that allows them to obtain information held by US-registered data companies no matter where in the world that information is held.
The Government has plans to store the decryption keys for the data in the same cloud as the data itself — a practice frowned upon within the industry for such a sensitive cache of public information."
The above paragraphs are straightforward.
As opposed to what Johknee quoted:
""Keeping Australian data in Australia will be guaranteed through a determination through the Biosecurity Act and legislation," etc
which is very rubbery and as shown by the U.S. in the past, carries no real weight - there is evidence that similar things have not happened in the past.
Generally speaking, any source of information is capable of communicating both self-evident facts and also "facts" that are meaningless in the greater scheme of things.
So I dunno Cromwell, read widely, try to use some critical thinking and try to get a consensus from sources that you've critically analysed.
An NZ perspective:
Andy's not being a paranoid crackpot. These things happen in the least corrupt, least oppressive countries, almost by default. Mission creep.
Thanks IB, I think people who are blasé about all this must have been asleep for the past 20 years.
At least we can 'debate' on this forum, and thank you for that SN. In NZ at the moment, you get absolutely savaged if you ask a single question.
Keep it up, Andy. There's a reason civil rights are fought for worldwide, and we should only relinquish them briefly and carefully.
Island Bay the criticisms in the first piece concern an app being developed by Apple and Google. It is in effect an argument for doing what Australia has done by developing its own app. The general argument about trends in surveillance is nothing new, we should be concerned about many issues involving privacy but to make the app the focus of these concerns is to fall for the three card trick....... maybe focus a bit more on what the other hand is doing.
And the thing that really frustrates me is when people who otherwise consider themselves progressive all of a sudden turn fucking pro-authoritarian.
Talk about cognitive dissonance.
Agreed IB, we're lucky to have a site like this.
Cromwell, I realise that it was/had become about The App, but I thought there was a broader issue.
Going back to your assessment of sources Andy, you still have to weight their reliability. A consensus can just mean they are all getting their information from the same place. This is a major problem on internet news sites as they just feed on each other. I suppose what really concerns me is that you were so dismissive of the Cyber Security Cooperative Research Centre and I remind you that you never answered my question about how you would rate the Privacy Commission or the release of the source code or named another piece of software that had been subject to similar scrutiny. IB I agree with most of the concerns expressed here about surveillance and lack of privacy. My point is that the scrutiny of this app almost guarantees that it will be safe.
(tbb's Oz Spy School ) Covert -19 > Govid -20
China runs the streets / France runs Transit / US runs Online
2001 Oz founded 1st Biometrics Institute + wrote the Bio ethics Code.
6th eye [biometrics] France (Thales /Gemalto) (one of us...Templar wannabes)
Oz can't handle Nukes > France Transit Bio security licencing > Airports > Subs
P. Costello stalls / ramps Thales deals to feed Liberal Party as in Reffo Quango!
Boomers may recall Costello from Prostitution of Oz Women & Bar Coding Babies
Thales Trams/ trains lure discounts for more data share...(Very good example)
(No phone) commuters (tbb-terrorist) are shown as Red Alert on Cam system.
Thales Drivers Licence apps mine / track / sell all your data internationally
Drivers Licence is soon National.(States are fast tracking this from 2019)
Banking, Bills, Social Security,Tax will require Thales Bio Facial Read in 2020
Bottom Feeders Downtown Spies (China)
Thales Transit surveillance is then picked up by Civic Stations + Intersection cams
Councils sign Chinese sister Cities to wi-fi all utilities to tourists & ratepayers.
GC > Wuhan > Tencent/ Alibaba
Get a Dutto [Sticker] for Chinese Tourists & Students [Visas] see also Darwin...
Oz + Chinese Govts then track Chinese Tourists & Visas on visit > Stay in cities
Everything from Beach / Footy / Events / Mall / ATM / Phones / TV > China access.
tbb's City GCCC are now running 1500 bio cams + free spy-fi + Credit reads
All business / Drone Deliveries / Homes integrate with growing Police surveillance
Breaches are detected by Cams & Penalty Points are issued $13,000 > Covid-19.
GC Social Credit redirects advertised Rallies to cam controlled parks/streets.etc...
Canal tinnies Behavioural Cams
Police Engine Immobilizers
(5 eyes - online Spies)
Google / Apple /Facebook via those Oz yuppie geek Billionaires Atlassian
MyInternetBill > (re: ADDC Boss)
MyHealthCrash + (Sequel - Vomitron)
MyJobseekerCrash + MyJobseekerCrash are hiring
Whatever China/France/US control in Oz ...gets sent to Puppet Master Dr No!
[Breaking News] A perfect example!
MyCovert -19 > GovID -20 > AWS (That's the big Boss) All Tracked & Fucked Now!
Bezos Mandate is feared by all Mortals...
Dr No Bezos runs Australia
AWS (Bezos) Census 2021
June 2018 [GovPass] becomes [MyGovID] > Mid 2020 Facial Recognition
ADDC-Australian Data & Digital Council
National Birth Certificate < > Drivers Licence are two current fast tracks
All govt transactions go online & for those that aren't that way inclined...
Traceable Cash now Tracks $50+$100 to Under Gran's Bed to Chinese Rice Jar.
Chinese use Oz Dollars as Secret Currency (reason for nano sized Trackers).
Highly likely Oz Govt can count money in peoples homes both here & in China.
Totally agree with your first three sentences Cromwell.
I think it was pretty reasonable being doubtful of the CSCRC for all the reasons I've given. I'd absolutely like to see other experts put their two cents worth in.
As for the Privacy Commission or the release of the source code, I don't know, I haven't looked into it.
If the U.S. wants to keep all or some of the data for some unforeseen reason and the Australian government willingly hands it over, what difference does the source code make?
Anyway, I've made my point and I'm done.
Cheers for the chat.
Im curious are you guys also against public surveillance cameras in public or private business???
Obviously these cameras are now an important part to solving and even preventing all types of crime these days from robberies, to car accidents, to rape, violence etc
Or are you also against surveillance of those undertaking cyber crimes like child porn etc???
In the grand picture in regards to our rights / privacy the App is no big deal.
Could be a game changer on recovery as surveillance of the virus is paramount.
Our rights and privacy went long ago through terrorism/ security laws, undermining / debasing the very institutions that defend our rights such as unions etc.
We live in a country where its accepted that we have a system in which a person can be charged found guilty and imprisoned in secret (Blowin rants about the CCP how about our own system?)
Then there is the creep on what powers have been increased as to what fed and state police can do.
The immediate threat isn't from government but the system.
That's before you get to what your mobile phone / internet apps are already doing.
How ever I think giving the contact to Amazon was incredibly f***ing stupid.
Take up now unlikely.
The big problem i see with the app is this
"the app will identify other phones using the app that have been within a 1.5 metre range for at least 15 minutes"
It only takes a second or two two catch the virus from someone so why only log those that are within 1.5 metres for 15 minutes?
Why not just log everyone person that comes within 1.5 metres or even further no matter if they have been in your area for 2 seconds or 2 hours?
Two factors Indo. First the probability of infection increases with time in close proximity. Second, for many people a two second contact would create a huge number that needed to be traced, most being extremely low risk and so waste resources.
BTW BB missed your writing great to see you here again cheers.
Thanks I focus. I will be around as long as it all stays cool.
Sure infection risk increases with time but risk is still there at shorter time spans, 15 minutes is a long time even one minute for me would be too long, but more a time span id expect or even 30 seconds.
Surely the data recorded would also record time span or numbers of times came in contact with that person, so these would be the ones followed up first and then follow up shorter time spans as they go down the list.
For example at the moment only people i would be in contact with for 15 minutes would be my wife.
If i got the virus from someone in a shop etc and they didnt know they had the virus, we would never be able to trace the point of infection back, or if i discovered i had the virus and suspected i got it at such and such a place but had been in contact with a few people for short periods, they couldn't be contacted because it wouldn't be logged in my phone, so only people id have logged in my phone would be my family.
In most cases if you are within 1.5 metres of someone for 15 minutes or more, you would know them anyway, only time i can think of when you wouldn't know them is in a situation like public transport.
Seems a waste to have a system with the data and then not have the ability to use it properly.
I will download and use to support the scheme, but in reality it's only ever going to log my wife's phone while we are in or out of lock down, even if with friends or maybe clients, its unlikely im going to be 1.5 metres from them for 15 minutes.
Would these tech overlords be free to hook up Bio Metrics in their hometowns?
These Billionaires whimper to Gun Toting Cities to install Bio Cam networks.
Silicone Valley was first place to ban Bio Cams & Seattle tried them & smashed 'em.
The geek guys know not to ask anymore...
Meanwhile the most peaceful Cities with zero guns fight off Police Spy Cams
Sydney City detention camp reffos have 60,000 eyes freeze frame a facial touch.
Applying world police laws, if Sydney arms itself, it's free to shoot out the cams.
So 20million cams spy on sheeple but not one cam is aimed at heavily armed Cities.
Govt detains sheeple with prisoners & those with guns are free to run the town.
US Gun owners with night vision telescopic lens, say they don't need the bio cams.
100% cams only go after easy targets + 100% Lie to say they target criminals.
700 UK crims say Cams don't change location or crime but will hide themselves...
Making it harder to track them with the cams or by beat bobbies...
So cams reinvented masked bandits that laugh at the law ...(Brilliant! Thanx Cams!)
Thanks I Focus , I will be around as long as I can promulgate my authoritarian perspective on the stupid plebeians who I truly believe should be enslaved to my personal opinions.
In the meantime I will deliver polemics which are vigorously strewn with references to hard evidence and plausibility, without ever providing a scintilla of either.
I’ll allude to science as though I alone am in ownership of its qualities. I’ll contemptuously frown upon any other call to fact if it’s not those sources I prefer to quote.
I’ll freely dismiss contrary views even if they are irrefutable, based on nothing more than the premise that my opinion trumps all conflicting evidence.
If I can’t defend my perspective with straw man arguments, I will then attack you personally. If this fails I will then assume victim status and soon after contact the site moderators demanding that they shut the entire site down because I’m subject to hard reality of the kind I certainly do not enjoy.
Indo....are you a gyprocker ?
Blowin you are turing Swellnet into Facebook.
If abuse is all you have then what is that you have?
If personalisation is your argument then what is your argument?
Your greatest example of psychological projection yet, blow in. And there's certainly been a shitload.
Congrats! Best self-own ever!
Haha....whatever cocksuckers .
I Focus....not a shot at you , it was for our recently reacquainted Nazi Facist authoritarian dickhead strange cunt ( I’ll not name him to keep the peace ).
On the self isolation medicine, blow in?
ps what's a 'facist'? Is that someone that thinks Swellnet is their very own Facebook?
tbb feels he may have been breached or baptized by Blowin...
We Plasterers (Hang/Set/Sand/Cornice)
tbb refers to the Hanging or Fixing of Plasterboard Sheets....
Blowin & (Bogans) refer to us as Gyprockers or Gypies...(Derogatory Term?)
Gyprocker or Gypie : (Blank shifty FIFO character)
'Gypies' don't hang long, often gone in a week due to workload > (Untrustworthy)
Gyprockers & Blowins are from the same tribe of ilks! No offence to ilks!
Haha tbb the vast majority of plasterers I see on site look like the perfect bong smoking, ciggy chuffing, Mother 1lt can drinking stereotype. Not all! But lots!
Very very unhealthy gents ha ha aha
Haven’t said a bad word about gyprockers.
The gyprockers drew a full picture of female genitalia on the walls upstairs of my brother's house, prior to paint.
We've all been there. Your brother a cunt too, hey VJ?
Blowin, such insight into your own behaviour! I never would have guessed you were capable of it. Congratulations here’s to many more constructive discussions.
You can laugh about trying to deplatform and censor opinions you don’t like , no one else finds that shit amusing.
C'mon...dont make me come in here.
I've been drinking cheap rosé from a plastic cup while singing anti-war songs at the top of my voice and now I'm ready to fight.
Don't make me come in here.
With Jatz crackers.
What of it?
Sounds like Stunet has succumb to some ANZAC day lockdown festivities! Nice work, and you dont have to worry about breaking the glass when you fall over either -stay safe ha ha
"I was only 19" on repeat ?
"You can laugh about trying to deplatform and censor opinions"
It's not your opinions that need deplatforming it is your constant resort to insults, aggression and racism that need dealing with. Deplatforming is only one way to silence those who disagree with you. Insults, attempts to belittle and threats of violence work too. Just a small sample of your work. I would also quite seriously suggest that you take a look at the Racial Vilification Act as one complaint and deplatforming could be the least of your worries.
“Bluff will be packed with entitled and infected frenchmen……”. 28 March
“The same freckle- spotted fuckers would have been crying racism if an Australian had been prioritised for the jobs they held…..” In reference to Irish doctors 29 march
“Go home or die !
Something that temporary visitors in Australia could do well to remember.” 25 March
“Fucking vibrant scum” 19 March
“How’s the vibrants going full fuck-you to Australia with their unapologetic raping of supplies ?” 19 march
“Why don’t you just fuck off back to the Auld Cuntry then if you have no love for the place or it’s people ?” 21 Feb
“Facto ( Pupkin ) is a China Shill.
First against the wall cunt.” 25 March
Have I got this right ?
Are you threatening to lodge a complaint with the police saying that I’m racially vilifying people ?
Are you collating evidence with the intention of getting me into legal trouble ?
A yes or no answer.
Well this clean slate thing between you two didn't last very long.
I wish you guys would just stick to debating opposing views rather than making it about attacking each other.
Now back to the App.I never carry my mobile with me.I heard years ago carrying a phone in your pants pocket wasn't good for your swimmers(semen) not sure if true?
I own an old Nokia and it stays in the car,on purpose.In the beginning i was constantly using mobiles but after a few years i got tired of my privacy being invaded and becoming my own receptionist on call 24/7.(nothing worse than a nagging wife!)I decided to tech detox,i live in a valley with terrible phone/television signal and love it.I do binge on swellnet on the weekends and enjoy all the info/opinions.
I am concerned that legislation of the 'App' will lead to the possession of mobile phones becoming mandatory in public.What about young children?Will they need a phone at the age of 2 or at birth?Government wont share 'app' info but every hacker out there will!
Yep, it's interesting to see what's become mandatory over the years - first a bank account, now a computer is not far off mandatory, soon it'll be so inconvenient not to have a phone that that'll be as good as legislated.
Oldest nephew got a $1000 iPhone for his 11th birthday, what could possibly be wrong with that?
Yeah what's next?
Maybe if your bank account and the ATO and other government departments are linked and you've got a phone with GPS and you're hooked up to something like Facebook that can sift through and sell your data, that's mission accomplished?
Blowin, you can get into trouble all by yourself. You have not vilified me but many of your comments are right on the edge for members of other groups. All it takes is for someone to take offence and register a complaint. Of course the offence you cause by your constant insults, belittling of others and threats are legal, but still a reprehensible attempt to shut down anyone who disagrees with your views. And Indo, if you go back and look you will see those attacks are always started from the same direction and, as I said above, constitute a deliberate attempt to drive me and others off the site. Either that or he has a serious meth problem and just loses it.
Here’s where the abuse started....on the David Icke thread.
Go confirm it . Always playing the victim aren’t you ? I wasn’t aware that you were Blindboy and hadn’t said an offensive word to you previous to this pleasant little outburst, but you were dying for me to realise. Take ownership of your attitude. I still didn’t respond in kind for quite a while , trying to be civil . Soon became obvious I was wasting my time.
“Cromwell commented FRIDAY, 10 APR 2020 at 9:54AM
He is harassing and intimidating people waiting outside the consulate, including no doubt Australian citizens, oh sorry not really Australian are they if they’re ethnic Chinese, all spies, I forgot. Not like yourself a good honest Aussie who took the Chinese dollar as a FIFO workers and retired on his bush block. You are a hypocrite and a sad and pathetic loser with nothing better to do than throw insults around from the safety of your keyboard. If you are so passionate why haven’t you been protesting at the consulate? You have been pouring out toxic bullshit here for years and grossly insulting anyone who dares disagree with you. But I suppose the real world is a bit difficult isn’t it? Insults and aggression don’t work so well face to face. Much safer to hide in hinterland. Fuck me there are some obnoxious idiots around but you are close to the top of the pile.“