Surfing and Veganism

Stok's picture
Stok started the topic in Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 3:17pm

I think surfers, by their nature, are generally pretty in tune with the environment - more so than the general public.

We regularly get to fully immerse ourselves in the raw, unforgiving ocean, sometimes that ocean may be hours away from civilisation. We get to see sides of the ocean many don't, and all surfers feel somewhat connected to it.

Surfers are usually concerned about climate change, dwindling natural resources, excessive human population increase, exploitation of sea animals (Bali Dolphins, Seaworld etc), Tuna cages (Victor Harbor) and shark diving - hell even general littering (I've never seen a true surfer litter).

So I thought I’d put it out there – is anyone on this forum vegan? If not, have you ever considered it?

Living a vegan lifestyle is pretty much as close as you can get to being sustainable in our modern society. Aside from the health and serious and significant ethical reasons to become vegan (and there are so, so many of ethical reasons available), sustainability is a huge one. Human demand for seafood is straight out killing our oceans. Livestock is also killing them – directly through creating ‘ocean dead zones’ near farmland and indirectly through agriculture’s massive carbon footprint.

As a lifelong surfer, and only a recent vegan (6 months) I encourage you to watch this, and consider if you want to continue being a part of one of the most destructive ways of life the earth has ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLgkrQSRy9E

p.s. I became vegan only for sustainable and ethical reasons – I actually don’t think eating meat is necessarily wrong, and I do believe in the food chain and apex predators – But the way humans consume is not what I would consider part of the food chain. We’re not an apex predator – we’re a destructive bacteria.

dandandan's picture
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dandandan commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 2:43pm

I don't know about you a360 but I can't think of a single person who has ever been bitten by a snake, so I doubt it is something that most vegans are going to grapple with. The amount of vegans who have faced that conundrum across the globe would surely be less than 100.

In any case, I think sticking by your guns most of the time is a good enough goal.

a360's picture
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a360 commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 2:57pm

Interesting though was thinking about it the other , after another family member got bitten by a dugite 2nd in the family in the last 20 years (both OK) and at the same time when I found out I was watching a doco which had certain religions refusing blood products because of their faith leading to the odd death.

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bigleft commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 3:53pm

Sorry a little off topic here but uplift do you remember where the thread was about shoulder rehab that you had helped out welly etc, I have hurt my ac joint and the search function isn't working!... As for this thread seriously good work has been very interesting and have some great info to use on a couple of overzealous friends/ppl on Facebook who sprout the vegan/cowspiracy stuff constantly, I am very lucky a bit like freeride in that I have chooks out the backyard which produce all of our eggs along with a small vege patch where we grow as much veg as we can and all of our own herbs etc (all in suburban Perth), couple that with having come from a farming family who still operate on a property north of gero I can still obtain a lot of meat pretty easily from them and understand/have been involved in the whole process of where it comes from... Again it's not pretty but I believe it's a fact of life... The sheep getting shot will go through a lot less pain than the poor zebra getting taken out on the savannah and being bled to death...

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wellymon commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 4:00pm

bigleft.
Muscles By BlindBoy,
There is a glitch on SN bringing it up with search.

Good exercises, Uplift is the bomb;)

Good luck.

Our brains are too small at the moment to comprehend the reality of what's happening in our forests . We're only just waking up so to speak . The big problem is we think we know everything, we are specks of dust on a timeline and we know nothing .

udo's picture
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udo commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 4:52pm

Just put -swellnet muscles- into google.

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bigleft commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 5:07pm

Legends!! Thanks very much for that guys :)

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 5:31pm

hehe, to be honest uplift I was trying to blow a bit of smoke up your arse with the 5 ton line being the domain of someone fit, because you always seem to find ways to take comments as though they're a fight and make assumptions about other people's comments.

But look, I'm sorry to be making such unconsidered assertions, based on no real experience, but I'm not talking about the food triangle. I didn't mention that, did I? From what I understand, based on my limited fake experience and unconsidered opinion, doctor's don't use that anymore either, not for at least a decade I think. I'm not talking about days of yore.

Please understand, I'm not arguing that current medical recommendations will make you fit, the point against which you seem to be arguing, just they won't make you an "unhealthy porker", to quote my original comment on this. That's all my baseless unconsidered assertion is. That was in the context of suggesting that doctors aren't responsible for the obesity epidemic because I'm pretty sure they never suggested we should sit on our bums and eat frozen pizza and KFC while snacking on smiths crisps and lollies in between. But as you know I've no real experience in all this as I've never spoken to a doc. They might be suggesting that kind of approach to life nowdays. :-)

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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 5:59pm

Vegans to be true vegans can't eat lots of things even honey or i believe don't like to support industries that kill/farm animals, but i wonder where the line is drawn?

How do they feel about fruit & vegetables that have been fertilised with fertilisers that contain animal by products….i could understand manures get a pass as are a natural by product that does not cause harm to an animal even though they may be collected from farmed animals that will end up being killed to be eaten.

But many other fertilisers include actual dead animals that are a by product of fishing industry or slaughter houses for example blood and bone and fish emulsions, id imagine many vegans are into organic fruit and vegetables which on a commercial scale is actually where these products are more commonly used because people who organically farm generally avoid synthetic fertilisers.

(Synthetic Fertilizers are “Man made” inorganic compounds - usually derived from by-products of the petroleum industry. Examples are Ammonium Nitrate, Ammonium Phosphate, Superphosphate, and Potassium Sulfate.)

Must be very complex being a vegan, and in many cases even when they think they are doing the right thing, they are actually part of what they are against.

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 6:03pm

batfink wrote: I'm trying to lose 3 or 4 kgs.

i remember doing an energy calc a few months back....1kg of fat = 9000 calories. average bloke needs 2500 calories a day. so if you eat half that then its gonna take you a week to lose 1 kg and 4kgs will take you a month ! i reckon about 1 to 2 kgs a month is more sustainable. if you eat healthy but just too much (like me) then i reckon cutting your intake in half is a big jump and its really mentally draining.

i read somewhere that your brain uses something like 20% of your food energy intake or something like that. sounds amazing - did i just make up that number?

Nigel Nosedive's picture
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Nigel Nosedive commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 6:13pm

Hi Stok
Perhaps you missed my point- it wasn't as much a criticism of veganism more the widely held view that because you can see fish and bycatch etc dying then those ecosystem must be being raped. Even with trawling the habitat remains much closer to the original than a field of lettuces does.

The strawman of applying similar harvesting approaches to invasive species was to highlight that expert consensus has determined that trying to eradicate more widespread species by mechanical means is futile. Also we taxpayers do throw large sums at eradication in limited circumstances - the battle against fire ants in SE Qld is a current example and the large effort to remove carp from a lake system in Tassie also comes to mind. In both cases I am reasonably certain the decisions were predicated on the fact that the populations hadn't expanded significantly.

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wellymon commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 7:20pm

happyasS wrote:
batfink wrote: I'm trying to lose 3 or 4 kgs.

i remember doing an energy calc a few months back....1kg of fat = 9000 calories. average bloke needs 2500 calories a day. so if you eat half that then its gonna take you a week to lose 1 kg and 4kgs will take you a month ! i reckon about 1 to 2 kgs a month is more sustainable. if you eat healthy but just too much (like me) then i reckon cutting your intake in half is a big jump and its really mentally draining.

i read somewhere that your brain uses something like 20% of your food energy intake or something like that. sounds amazing - did i just make up that number?

2500 calories a day, depends on many things happyas, body weight/work/exercise etc, Uplift could probably explain things better that myself;)

If you read Uplifts diet, it does not contain sugar!,,,, But very good protein for a reason, that being energy, which is essential for the big fella, lifting and pushing tonnes;)

Stokie,My wife was a vego for 10 years, not a vegan? She was constantly sick, as she tells me, before I meat her.
The doctors said she lacked so much , iron, protein and zinc , especially bringing a new one into this world and had to change her diet drastically. She did, but took along time to wean herself from all vegetables to , fish, then to meat.

Hey Stoky, no offense mate, but I have known many a vegan and vego freak, to tell you the truth, they and their family are always sick, with this, with that.!!!
After 6 months of being a vegan, as you've stated? be aware champ.

As meat is not bad, it's SUGAR and PROCESSED FOODS mate;)

Our brains are too small at the moment to comprehend the reality of what's happening in our forests . We're only just waking up so to speak . The big problem is we think we know everything, we are specks of dust on a timeline and we know nothing .

udo's picture
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udo commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 7:35pm

Its a good wife that tells you she was constantly sick before you meat her

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happyasS commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 7:53pm

udo wrote: Its a good wife that tells you she was constantly sick before you meat her

headache i assume.

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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 8:54pm

benski wrote: hehe, to be honest uplift I was trying to blow a bit of smoke up your arse with the 5 ton line being the domain of someone fit, because you always seem to find ways to take comments as though they're a fight and make assumptions about other people's comments.

But look, I'm sorry to be making such unconsidered assertions, based on no real experience, but I'm not talking about the food triangle. I didn't mention that, did I? From what I understand, based on my limited fake experience and unconsidered opinion, doctor's don't use that anymore either, not for at least a decade I think. I'm not talking about days of yore.

Please understand, I'm not arguing that current medical recommendations will make you fit, the point against which you seem to be arguing, just they won't make you an "unhealthy porker", to quote my original comment on this. That's all my baseless unconsidered assertion is. That was in the context of suggesting that doctors aren't responsible for the obesity epidemic because I'm pretty sure they never suggested we should sit on our bums and eat frozen pizza and KFC while snacking on smiths crisps and lollies in between. But as you know I've no real experience in all this as I've never spoken to a doc. They might be suggesting that kind of approach to life nowdays. :-)

Honing in on:

'From what I understand, based on my limited fake experience and unconsidered opinion, doctor's don't use that anymore either, not for at least a decade I think. I'm not talking about days of yore.'

http://www.nutritionaustralia.org/national/resource/healthy-living-pyramid

http://www.nutritionaustralia.org/national/healthy-eating-pyramid/updati...

'The layers of the Pyramid are based on the recommended food intake for 19–50 year olds according to the Australian Dietary Guidelines (2013). However the proportions and placement of each food group are generally applicable to all age groups from 1–70 years.'

Nutrition Australia’s Pyramid has continually evolved for over 30 years, always with the same aim: to encourage Australians to eat a varied and balanced diet in line with current dietary guidelines.

'In 2015, Nutrition Australia launched the new Pyramid with a fresh look and targeted health messages.'

Oh, so long ago...

Please stop now...

As stewart would say... STOP FUCKING BULLSHITTING!!!

I actually have to teach, mentor and assess Fitness and Nutrition courses, which have to be based on the ludicrous fucking food triangles, that the Australian health system/doctors promote, for them to be officially recognised.

Again... please stop... FUCKING BULLSHITTING!!!???!!!...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el581UBW4b0

And, the obesity epidemic explodes even bigger, out of another fresh triangle.

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Blowin commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 8:54pm

I was seeing a vegan girl for a while.

She didn't like meat but she loved the bone.

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:18pm

Hehe. No bullshitting good sir. Position statement on nutrition from the Australian medical association from 2005.

https://ama.com.au/position-statement/nutrition-2005

"With such a poor understanding of what constitutes a healthy diet, care must be taken to only promote long-term eating habits that are evidenced-based. This would mean that the traditional diet pyramid should no longer be used and there should be a focus on variety and the correct quantity of energy for an individual's requirement."

Those dastardly doctors with their one size fits all approach to nutrition, trying to make us obese. ;-)

NOW STOP SHOUTING AT PEOPLE!!!

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happyasS commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:19pm

mk1's picture
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mk1 commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:24pm

Fuck I remember being taught the food pyramid in primary school, and then you find out that it's just bullshit!

Saw a QI episode where they compared the "standard drinking measures for good health" from around the world - all different. He said one of the main guys who developed it had admitted he just made a number up, one that wouldn't seem too bad, nothing too innocuous.

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:33pm

Indeed mk1. Sounds like that fella was a proper goose.

The food pyramid is a classic example of how science gets proved wrong by better science.

Now duck, there might be an eruption over that. ;-)

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happyasS commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:33pm

interesting program on SBS a while back about the food pyramid. it deduced a very reasonable case that the food pyramid arose out of a single US wheat/corn producing state. corrupt congress members supporting that failing state and paying off medical scientists to find in favour of mass grain consumption. scary when you consider that the whole thing could have been concocted up by just a few men over 60 years ago.

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mk1 commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:35pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-holt-gimenez/world-hunger_b_1463429.html

"The world already produces more than 1 ½ times enough food to feed everyone on the planet. That's enough to feed 10 billion people, the population peak we expect by 2050. But the people making less than $2 a day -- most of whom are resource-poor farmers cultivating unviably small plots of land -- can't afford to buy this food.

"In reality, the bulk of industrially-produced grain crops goes to biofuels and confined animal feedlots rather than food for the 1 billion hungry. The call to double food production by 2050 only applies if we continue to prioritize the growing population of livestock and automobiles over hungry people.

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mk1 commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:36pm

benski wrote: Indeed mk1. Sounds like that fella was a proper goose.

The food pyramid is a classic example of how science gets proved wrong by better science.

Now duck, there might be an eruption over that. ;-)

Haha, that's been one of my main arguments on this site yet I just threw all the science out the window calling it all bullshit!

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:37pm

Or in the case of the food pyramid, bogus corruption is exposed by good science.

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mk1 commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:40pm

benski wrote: Or in the case of the food pyramid, bogus corruption is exposed by good science.

Yes it does appear to be structurally incorrect.

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:42pm

Haha. Ah well, the links between the medical profession and pharmaceuticals make the bath water easy to throw out with the baby.

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floyd commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:51pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pyvBpNwHuU

"T-Bone"

Got mashed potatoes
Got mashed potatoes
Got mashed potatoes
Ain't got no T-Bone
Ain't got no T-Bone

uplift's picture
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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:00pm

benski wrote: Hehe. No bullshitting good sir. Position statement on nutrition from the Australian medical association from 2005.

https://ama.com.au/position-statement/nutrition-2005

"With such a poor understanding of what constitutes a healthy diet, care must be taken to only promote long-term eating habits that are evidenced-based. This would mean that the traditional diet pyramid should no longer be used and there should be a focus on variety and the correct quantity of energy for an individual's requirement."

Those dastardly doctors with their one size fits all approach to nutrition, trying to make us obese. ;-)

NOW STOP SHOUTING AT PEOPLE!!!

'Yore... you said? 2005? Exactly, so they came up with this, welcome to 2015.

'In 2015, Nutrition Australia launched the new Pyramid with a fresh look and targeted health messages.'

'The pyramid is available on the Nutrition Australia website, plus magnets and posters will be distributed to schools and doctors.'

Doctors do use it, I see that consistently with clients. What do you find, with the people you train and help with nutrition? And what do the government accredited course's you teach, assess, etc use besides the pyramid?

uplift's picture
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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:03pm

But, take your time googling.

In the meantime, with the volume up, STOP BULLSHITTING!!!

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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:25pm

'Those dastardly doctors with their one size fits all approach to nutrition, trying to make us obese. ;-)'

A classic attempted deflection of the facts. Nothing like what I said. What I said is that doctors have next to zero training in nutrition and exercise. Which is a fact. So they, as you yourself point out, have little choice but to use misinformation. And that's a choice. Unless as a profession they admit they aren't equipped to offer help, or they completely alter their education content. Which they haven't. So, now they have the new pyramid.

And, another fact, obesity is rising, as are the waiting lists for preventable operations and procedures.

Another fact is that the health system can't continue to function in this vein.

A tip from the market... don't fall in love with the company.

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mk1 commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:36pm

Impressed with the level of consideration people have put into their food consumption shown in this thread. I guess if you haven't, you don't feel a need to post though?!

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:37pm

Ah you make me laugh old mate. An appeal to authority to argue a side point? Yeah Nutrition Australia (as opposed to the ama) have a revised food pyramid no kidding. Not exactly under dispute here. Looks a bit different to that rubbish from the 80s and 90s though doesn't it?

Still doesn't change my very simple point, that really is so uninteresting I'm surprised you're wasting your time looking for an argument (remember this came out of you thinking wrongly that I was mocking your workout), that if people follow doctor's advice on eating healthy food and exercising regularly they won't end up obese. But many people don't follow that advice.

As for what I find in my teaching? I don't like to talk about my actual work on swellnet but being a uni lecturer (and primarily researcher) I tend to find my students have pretty good diets and are aware of the sustainability, or otherwise, of what they eat. None is what you'd call obese though.

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happyasS commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:37pm

gaarrghhh....thats a "new" food pyramid uplift. how dare they try and change it. ><

i vote to blame egyptians for this pyramid mess we are in.

now for some trivia....

Who famously said......"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."

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zenagain commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:43pm

Was it Nathan Pritikin?

Edit: Nope.

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:42pm

Oh uplift you really really do make me chuckle. Stop looking for a fight man. I'm dropping in jokey remarks because you're too quick to fire up. You've forgotten what you're arguing about :-). You've certainly missed my only point on this (which I repeated above for you). I'm bailing on you now because this was an interesting thread and these kinds of arguments are so dull. So dull.

Go well man.

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:46pm

That sounds like something stok would say.

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happyasS commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:53pm

einstein apparently, (although not so famously)

....but he was a physicist so mighta got that one wrong. apparently he could think clearer as a vegetarian in his later years.

just imagine, a new race of intelligent herbivores telling us meat eaters what to do....i wont stand for it !

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mk1 commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:53pm

Weinstein

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mk1 commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:53pm

Auto correct! Einstein

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mk1 commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:54pm

Damn it!

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happyasS commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:05pm

i made up that little bit about him thinking clearer as a vego.

....i doubt he'd mind much about being misquoted on a surfing website.

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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:08pm

Again, misrepresentation Benski. Denial of facts. My job is to actually address peoples health. That's what they pay me for. No, this is because you are unable to accept the fact that doctors have next to zero training in nutrition, or exercise. You need to feel they have, to satisfy your bias. Your old 2005 statement came about because doctors relied on the old pyramid, as they have nothing else at their disposal. A period of confusion and limbo followed, again, because doctors have next to zero training in nutrition and exercise, a fact you need to ignore or deny. They blindly try google though. But, new guidelines have been reached, hence the new pyramid. Obesity still is on the rise. As are the waiting lists. Doctors send clients to me, trying to utilise the useless couple of free PT system. Which also causes more problems than it addresses. You displayed your ignorance of exercise fully, with your 5 ton comments. Knowing that its important to eat and exercise correctly is useless, without knowledge of what that means... in the long run. As the never ending 'fresh' pyramid trail demonstrates, along with the burgeoning waiting lists and 'epidemics'. Exercise and nutrition can cause problems if it is incorrect.

A uni lecturer... that reminds me of when I had to teach one the difference between a power clean, and a clean and jerk... in front of the 'students' too! Oh the joy!

5 very revealing tons.

This subject isn't your forte benski, nor zenki's for that matter... not a crime. No need to ...

However, stewart has outlawed bullshitting!!! STOP... THE SHEER TONNAGE OF IT!!!

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Stok commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:14pm

benski wrote: That sounds like something stok would say.

I'm flattered benski
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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:23pm

"No, this is because you are unable to accept the fact that doctors have next to zero training in nutrition, or exercise."

No no man, I completely agree with you on that. Never disputed it. I know it to be true.

Re 5 tons...lighten up man. You don't think I could do the calculations? As I said I was trying to inflate your ego a tad tto try to calm the inevitable storm.

And remember, I've claimed no expertise in exercise or nutrition. Just made a simple observation which, my good man, I still believe is true, despite all your bluster.

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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:18pm

' I'm bailing on you now because this was an interesting thread and these kinds of arguments are so dull. So dull.'

Good choice... pulling out the infamous... 'observing without perceiving' technique... very clever, very ... 'bright'... Benski!!!

Good luck!!!

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:22pm

happyasS wrote: i made up that little bit about him thinking clearer as a vego.

....i doubt he'd mind much about being misquoted on a surfing website.

Ah really? I thought that was interesting! My diet is basically determined by eating foods that I've found help my concentration and focus, and avoiding foods that impede that. Protein is important for me in that regard, really gives me a clear head. Sugar is something I avoid as that sends my brain crazy. Some carbs are ok.

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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:26pm

You are getting even more confused benski. Observe. Don't try and perceive...

'Doctors have no expertise in nutrition or exercise... neither do I... fact... therefore I assert that following my advice to follow the advice of doctors regarding exercise and nutrition will be successful... discuss... as long as your discussion concurs...

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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:30pm

Excuse me Mr Benski... err... are you... err... sure...

'Shut up dullard!!! I'm the lecturer here! GET OUT!!!'

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Stok commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:31pm

wellymon wrote:
Stokie,My wife was a vego for 10 years, not a vegan? She was constantly sick, as she tells me, before I meat her.
The doctors said she lacked so much , iron, protein and zinc , especially bringing a new one into this world and had to change her diet drastically. She did, but took along time to wean herself from all vegetables to , fish, then to meat.

Hey Stoky, no offense mate, but I have known many a vegan and vego freak, to tell you the truth, they and their family are always sick, with this, with that.!!!
After 6 months of being a vegan, as you've stated? be aware champ.

As meat is not bad, it's SUGAR and PROCESSED FOODS mate;)

Ah welly, her constant sickness must have been the vegan/vego thing, of course! It's like people become vegan, get a headache one day...it must be because they're vegan! Trust me I know the feeling, I had a stomach cramp a while back - immediately assumed it was because I was vegan. But common sense does prevail.

Seriously though, if you can clearly explain to me about the link between being constantly sick, and being vegan, that would be great.

It's interesting, you're not the first one to bring up an anecdote of someone being malnourished as a vegan/vego. Like the lads in this forum have been saying - it's socially acceptable to be obese or overweight, underweight on the other hand...is weird. Maybe it's an instinctual thing, as in, it's better to be overweight to see out the hard times, so we tend to worry less about overweight people. We do worry more about underweight people it seems - both have health consequences. I'm sure many omnivores use this as one of their many go to excuses when they're about to eat or buy some meat.

I mean, I could easily say - "yeah I know guy who used to be vegan, but one day decided to be an omnivore. Had heaps of energy to start with, said he felt great. Then after a year or two he started putting on weight, and couldn't drop it. He reduced his meat intake so much until he was nearly a vegan again, then he started losing weight again."

Or how about this - "I knew a woman who was a meat eater from birth, she was obese, had type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure and died of heart disease."

Obviously any diet has its associated challenges, and it's pretty clear that as being a vegan it is easier to be thinner, and being a meat eater it is easier to be fatter. But as has been mentioned in this thread, provided you eat a balanced, well rounded diet (vegan or omnivore) and exercise, you're probably going to be fine.

Although to be honest I'd like to see an exact comparison between the health risks of an unhealthy vegan diet vs an unhealthy omnivorous diet,

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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:36pm
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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:37pm

Hehe. Oh uplift my dear man. I thought I was the one obscuring facts and avoiding throoths or whatever you said.

Follow the docs advice on eating and exercising and it probanly won't make you obese. That's all I said (about four times). It won't make you fit, it just won't make you obese. That's what you're wasting your evening arguing against. Is it really that important to you to argue such an uncontroversial point?

I'm not questioning your undoubted authority. I'm not muscling in on your well tended turf. It was all in the context of the claim that doctors are somehow responsible for the obesity crisis, as though they have been telling us to sit on our bums and eat maccas.