Surfing and Veganism

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Stok started the topic in Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 3:17pm

I think surfers, by their nature, are generally pretty in tune with the environment - more so than the general public.

We regularly get to fully immerse ourselves in the raw, unforgiving ocean, sometimes that ocean may be hours away from civilisation. We get to see sides of the ocean many don't, and all surfers feel somewhat connected to it.

Surfers are usually concerned about climate change, dwindling natural resources, excessive human population increase, exploitation of sea animals (Bali Dolphins, Seaworld etc), Tuna cages (Victor Harbor) and shark diving - hell even general littering (I've never seen a true surfer litter).

So I thought I’d put it out there – is anyone on this forum vegan? If not, have you ever considered it?

Living a vegan lifestyle is pretty much as close as you can get to being sustainable in our modern society. Aside from the health and serious and significant ethical reasons to become vegan (and there are so, so many of ethical reasons available), sustainability is a huge one. Human demand for seafood is straight out killing our oceans. Livestock is also killing them – directly through creating ‘ocean dead zones’ near farmland and indirectly through agriculture’s massive carbon footprint.

As a lifelong surfer, and only a recent vegan (6 months) I encourage you to watch this, and consider if you want to continue being a part of one of the most destructive ways of life the earth has ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLgkrQSRy9E

p.s. I became vegan only for sustainable and ethical reasons – I actually don’t think eating meat is necessarily wrong, and I do believe in the food chain and apex predators – But the way humans consume is not what I would consider part of the food chain. We’re not an apex predator – we’re a destructive bacteria.

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udo commented Saturday, 13 Feb 2016 at 11:53am

Don't know where mrs_joli instagram shops but she has a choice of roo steak ,camel burgers or crocodile in a green curry.

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velocityjohnno commented Saturday, 13 Feb 2016 at 3:21pm

OK Zen I will try to pass on the info he gave to me:

This supplanted his diet (assume for yourself: your everyday diet). When you go through what's in it, you realise there are a lot of antioxidants in it; that the root vegies are known as antibacterial/cleansing; there are a lot of minerals and vitamins; and its fairly alkaline. (Another personal trainer fellow I know summarised health quite simply as 'nutrition/calories'... that's another tale.)

Juice after morning exercise:
3/4 cup yoghurt, 4 strawberries, 12 blueberries, 1/2 pineapple circle (fresh), 3" of cucumber, 1/2 a squash, tsp garlic (ground), 1/2" ginger root, 10 leaves English Spinach, 1/2 shallot. Dice veggies, feed into blender. Optional: ground brazil nuts, flax (linseeds) added heaped desert spoon each. Mmmmm.

Edit: forgot to add bone broth to the juice (!). Nutrient rich broths were also a part of the Weston Price method to restore solid dentition/bone development to undernourished kids. I can provide a typical boosting meal from the book if anyone likes.

Cereal:
Linseeds, Brazil nuts, Almond nuts, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, chia seeds, brewers yeast, bee pollen (Royal jelly if you can get it, honey if you can't), lecithin. Grind up the nuts (eg coffee grinder) mix in bowl with 1/2 filtered water, 1/2 almond milk. Add tbsp olive oil, add psyllium husk. I personally add black strap molasses to this.

I end up using a mix of these in either dairy or almond milk based smoothies with banana, if I need the sugar hit after a surf. Or add chia oil in place of the olive oil, same omega 3 style input without the fish source.

You can go through one of those old 'Nutrition guide' sheets which lists benefits of vitamins eg B12, and sources, and see there's quite a lot in these recipies...

Otherwise, Peter Kelder's "The Ancient Secret of the Fountain of Youth" can also provide a Yoga based path of youthfulness, idea being to increase velocity and harmony of spinning energy vorticies (given an assumption the human body has an electromagnetic component, aka 'chakras') I'm near 40 and regularly pass as mid 20's. Pisses me off when I get mistaken for my children's brother or cousin.

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zenagain commented Saturday, 13 Feb 2016 at 5:21pm

Awesome VJ. I can't even begin to know where I'd get half that stuff here though.

I'm in the process of making my own cereal and I do the fruit and natural yoghurt thing for brekky too.

I totally gave up sugar and have gone a full month now without so much of a teaspoon of refined sugar, dropped 1.5kegs already. Sugar was my bugbear and I struggle with it because I love cakes and choccies.

People say I look mid-thirties and I'm in my late forties so must be doing something right but many thanks for taking the time out to post this.

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

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indo-dreaming commented Saturday, 13 Feb 2016 at 5:52pm

zenagain wrote: Indo, a bit like beef. I had it sashimi style (raw).

I won't do it again, just wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

Okay, i don't know why but I've always wondered what it would taste like i always imagined it would taste like a cross between beef and atlantic salmon for some reason, i think id like it cooked though i only like sushi in very small amounts.

Maybe a controversial thing to say in Aus but as long as it can be proved to be fished sustainably i don't have a problem with eating it orJapanese fishing for whale as long as its not in Aust waters.

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velocityjohnno commented Saturday, 13 Feb 2016 at 7:00pm

Thank you Zen. The Japanese have a wonderful history of low heart disease and long lifetimes, so there is certainly wisdom in studying their traditional approaches to food (and life in general: Shinto is fascinating). Have always admired your snow and surf posts from a country I love (student exchange, Okayama when young).

Giving up sugar really helped me. Dairy will be harder, and there's a weight of evidence that with my genetic background, I should keep it. We will see.

Also, I have made a mistake in the above post. I wrote "supplanted" - I should have written "supplemented". It is important for the meaning of the post to be correct. Stu, can you please edit my former post (13Feb 3:21).

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Stok commented Saturday, 13 Feb 2016 at 7:40pm

zenagain wrote: Finally, I've travelled a lot in my life and I can assure you as someone mentioned previously, the choice to be vegetarian is strictly a first world one.

I have to challenge the thinking behind this point - whilst I agree with you, it's a moot point.

A vegetarian or vegan diet is as much of a first world choice as any first world diet - It's a first world choice to be omnivorous to.

It's certainly is a first world choice to eat meat dairy and eggs everyday (I'm sure 90%+ of omnivores in the developed world do this). It's actually what some would call glutinous. It's a first world choice to spend $30+ for a good steak, or grab some sushi, or have a lamb kebab after a night out. It is certainly, absolutely, a first world choice to eat whale too.

Eating vegan or vegetarian at least shows some form of restraint. Eating an omnivorous diet generally has more decadence to it.

So, yes in the first world you have a choices with your diet; you can follow a normal diet by society's standards, where you eat like a king, have a different animal cooked a different way each meal. or you can chose to be vegetarian or vegan, where you consciously choose to only eat certain foods.

In my experience travelling to developing countries, there's much less meat on offer than what most first world people would consume - meals are mostly made up of staples.

The original thought of a vegan/vegetarian diet being a choice for the privileged is a negative and closed-minded one. It incites an attitude that vegans are just band wagon jumpers who do it because it's in fashion.

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Stok commented Saturday, 13 Feb 2016 at 7:42pm

tim foilat wrote:
greebs wrote: Tim .. Have done occasionally. Seems healthy enough on the gear he gets tho. Cheers.

Just having a laugh mate, but I just looked up on the fabulous Google and wow, pet food really is rank if you believe this...

"A rendering plant has a huge grinder that is filled up with whatever comes in. Some rendering plants are pickier than others, and some process ingredients in different batches to comply with state or local laws. But on the whole, most tend to dump in whatever they receive and start the grinder when it is full: parts from slaughterhouses, whole carcasses of diseased animals, cats and dogs from shelters, zoo animals, road kill and expired meat from grocery store shelves (tossed in fully packaged, complete with plastic wrap and Styrofoam).

This material is slowly pulverized into one big blend of dead stuff and meat packaging."

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/04/what_is...


Yikes...!
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freeride76 commented Saturday, 13 Feb 2016 at 8:08pm

Stok wrote: . It's actually what some would call glutinous.

Not sure but I think you mean gluttonous? Or do you mean gluten as in wheat?

Not sure how you equate an omnivorous diet with decadence, seeing as the human species has evolved on that diet for more than 2 million years, for most of that time as hunter gatherers.
I think you are making the mistake of equating western diets and lifestyles with being omnivorous. Plenty of vegans living incredibly decadent lifestyles.

Being vegan/vegetarian or omnivorous in and of itself isn't decadent.

But if the point you are making is that most western diets eat way too much meat then I agree wholeheartedly.

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Stok commented Saturday, 13 Feb 2016 at 8:35pm

Yes I mean gluttonous - whoops!

And yes, to summarise my ramblings, diets of the developed world include too much meat.

Agree with you that vegans can still be decadent, but I just don't like the generalisation that it's just vegetarian/veganism that is a first world choice.

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wellymon commented Saturday, 13 Feb 2016 at 9:07pm

zenagain wrote: And Greebs, don't presume to know me because I throw in a little (lame) humour about nut meat in a can or provide a delicious simple food hack, for want of a better term, for basting spare ribs.

You became a vegetarian right? You weren't raised as one? If you read my posts ages ago you'll come across the post where I mentioned a married couple I lived with. The husband was raised as a vego from birth but you wouldn'y know it, politely goes about his business. She on the other hand makes it patently clear to anybody who doesn't want to listen how disgusting they are.

You are right, you won't change my views but because I choose to eat meat (and I don't eat much meat anyway, I eat a pretty much exclusive Japanese diet- veges, rice and seafood and yep, I've even eaten whale and horse) but I also have a deep love and respect for all animals. The two stray cats that I have, who are free to come and go anytime they want, eat chicken. I'll take a fish for the table and eat it with love and gratitude and my little best mate in my avatar enjoys pieces of banana and apple in addition to meat. I hate any form of using animals for human entertainment or sport but that's for another time.

It's my hope naively that the meat I eat is killed ethically and humanely but I will repeat what I have said before, it is all food and if we eat it we should eat it with thanks and love.

Finally, I've travelled a lot in my life and I can assure you as someone mentioned previously, the choice to be vegetarian is strictly a first world one.

Boom Zen, well said mate.

Off topic sorry, Stok;)
Getting some face shots?, ain't heard nothing your way, except plum gravy and 5mm wetsuits?

Fill me in.

Our brains are too small at the moment to comprehend the reality of what's happening in our forests . We're only just waking up so to speak . The big problem is we think we know everything, we are specks of dust on a timeline and we know nothing .

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wellymon commented Saturday, 13 Feb 2016 at 9:11pm

freeride76 wrote: , seeing as the human species has evolved on that diet for more than 2 million years, for most of that time as hunter gatherers.

Does that include our Hominid friends the Yowie?

Our brains are too small at the moment to comprehend the reality of what's happening in our forests . We're only just waking up so to speak . The big problem is we think we know everything, we are specks of dust on a timeline and we know nothing .

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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 14 Feb 2016 at 8:56am

fong wrote: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism

will eat only what falls (or would fall) naturally from a plant: that is, foods that can be harvested without killing or harming the plant.[

Your all murders. ..every last stinky one of u

Ha ha classic, but don't they understand that the reason for fruit is to contain seeds so in a sense they are preventing possible life, i guess they could argue they plant the seeds after they have eaten the fruit though.

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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 14 Feb 2016 at 9:14am

BTW. I do know for my friends in places like Mentawai's and Telo's it would be impossible to be vegan even vegetarian, strangely in many areas there just isn't the fruit and vegetables available and a lot of the diet is based on seafood and basically just rice and sago palm starch and the odd cheap vegetable such as water spinach, vegetables and fruit apart from coconut and bananas and maybe mandarins or some root vegetables are real expensive as all come in from the mainland.

Although not eaten that regular pigs are also very important part of life and also eaten, although rarely because they are worth so much.

I worry about some of my friends diets just because the people in these areas generally don't live long and have brought them seeds that will grow easily in there climate with little care like snake bean etc and tried to casually educate them on the importance of fruit and vegetables in a diet, just through basic conversation very tactfully without preaching, but they generally don't seem interested and last time i think they gave the seed i brought to the neighbour as the neighbour trys to grow some things, I'm happy with that though hopefully he will grow them and let some set seed and spread them around.

Yeah so i can confirm for many in developing countries it sure isn't realistic or an option to be vegan or even vegetarian and could even be life threatening if they tried (without the education and access to foods needed to get what there body needs)

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udo commented Sunday, 14 Feb 2016 at 9:17am

Little off track but a story on ABC online re the use of supplements and green tea.

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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 14 Feb 2016 at 9:51am

I think the fact Kelly Slater somebody who is so conscious about what he puts in his body isn't a vegan or vegetarian says it all.

I mean he is pushing 45 and still competing at a top level still in the top ten thats pretty crazy.

My prediction for 2020 Kelly Slater will write a book called the KS diet, and you know id actually be interested in reading it, screw veganism I'm much more interested in what Kelly eats.

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Stok commented Sunday, 14 Feb 2016 at 11:03pm

indo-dreaming wrote: My prediction for 2020 Kelly Slater will write a book called the KS diet, and you know id actually be interested in reading it, screw veganism I'm much more interested in what Kelly eats.

Screw the ethical and environmental issues, eat what Kelly eats!

Doesn't matter that his full time job is to surf and train, and he surfs and trains most days of the week - it must be his diet that's keeping him in top form!

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mk1 commented Monday, 15 Feb 2016 at 2:36pm

ID - good on you for giving it a shot.

"In Indonesia, 37.2% of children under the age of five are stunted and public awareness of this issue is low.

"Traditionally, Indonesia has paid more attention to severe underweight as a way to determine the country’s state of nutrition. By this measure alone, nutritional issues appear largely resolved, as the prevalence of severe under weight is just 5.4% in children under five-years.

My ASSUMPTION here - indicative of availability of food but of poor nutritional value.

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2015/04/23/the-double-burden-of...

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mk1 commented Monday, 15 Feb 2016 at 2:37pm

Stok wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote: My prediction for 2020 Kelly Slater will write a book called the KS diet, and you know id actually be interested in reading it, screw veganism I'm much more interested in what Kelly eats.

Screw the ethical and environmental issues, eat what Kelly eats!

Doesn't matter that his full time job is to surf and train, and he surfs and trains most days of the week - it must be his diet that's keeping him in top form!

How's the new religion going Stok - faith still burning strong?

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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 15 Feb 2016 at 7:39pm

mk1 wrote: ID - good on you for giving it a shot.

"In Indonesia, 37.2% of children under the age of five are stunted and public awareness of this issue is low.

"Traditionally, Indonesia has paid more attention to severe underweight as a way to determine the country’s state of nutrition. By this measure alone, nutritional issues appear largely resolved, as the prevalence of severe under weight is just 5.4% in children under five-years.

My ASSUMPTION here - indicative of availability of food but of poor nutritional value.

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2015/04/23/the-double-burden-of...

Yeah I'm pretty sure your assumption is spot on.

Thanks for the link the stunting thing is not really something I've read or heard about much before which is surprising, but I'm sure I've seen the effects of it.

The other big problem i see in villages is the kids and how much sugar type products they eat, its crazy kids that are only a few years old and their teeth are the worse rotten teeth you have ever seen you can actually see holes like the sugar has eaten the tooth away like acid, maybe there is something different with kid first teeth?, i know they will fall out and get new ones but still, the addiction to sugar is already done and its not like they look after their adult teeth.

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Stok commented Monday, 15 Feb 2016 at 11:49pm

mk1 wrote: How's the new religion going Stok - faith still burning strong?

Not a religion in any way or form mate, but yes I'm still happily following a vegan diet.

I can only assume you liken veganism to a religion just so you can incorrectly re-assure yourself it's weird and wrong, and that it's ok for you to continue consuming animals.

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AndyM commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 12:28am

Stok wrote:
mk1 wrote: How's the new religion going Stok - faith still burning strong?

Not a religion in any way or form mate, but yes I'm still happily following a vegan diet.

I can only assume you liken veganism to a religion just so you can incorrectly re-assure yourself it's weird and wrong, and that it's ok for you to continue consuming animals.


Wow, where do you get off telling everyone that they're wrong to consume animals?
Self righteous ego++
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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 8:35am

Stok wrote:
mk1 wrote: How's the new religion going Stok - faith still burning strong?

Not a religion in any way or form mate, but yes I'm still happily following a vegan diet.

I can only assume you liken veganism to a religion just so you can incorrectly re-assure yourself it's weird and wrong, and that it's ok for you to continue consuming animals.

Its not a religion, but the way in which many people who follow the lifestyle/diet generally preach and try to convert others and look down on others is very very similar to how many religious people act (mostly born again Christians)

But you doing that here IMO is fine thats what the topic is about, if i don't want to hear or read it, i have the choice not to click on the topic.

Personally i don't have a problem with vegans or vegetarians or people that follow whatever type of diet they like, i respect people choices but i also expect vegans/vegetarians to respect my food choices.

I wouldn't go as far to say its weird or wrong.

But the scientific and biological evidence does prove thats it not what our bodies are designed/evolved for so i think we can use the word "unnatural".

Its kind of like a diesel engine its been made to run on diesel , but you can run a diesel engine on many other alterative oils and fats that it wasn't designed to run on(vegetable oils, animal fats etc) but you have to really think about what you use and ensure its the right consistency and ensure this doesn't change otherwise you have problems and in much the same way as veganism/vegertarism using these oils is often better for the environment.

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boatie commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 10:30am

an article worth reading, not a judgement, just one person's experience of different diets/ideologies

http://dustinsview.com/all/beyond-vegetarian-one-mans-journey-from-tofu-...

worth considering the huge environmental impact of a lot of the soy and pulse production systems around the world before you consider that being vegan is better environmentally than eating grass-fed meat grown in your area, or your own chooks, or that pesky brush turkey digging up the garden

shop locally, grow some of your food yourself, eat when you are hungry, experiment with roadkill?......

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freeride76 commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 11:24am

Couple of quotes from that:

"So then I was a vegan all of the sudden, because the ship is a vegan ship. So I didn’t really have much choice. And I remember seeing the disconnect there—seeing people eating these soy based meat replacers, and veganase, and all this horrible packaged shit, that had all these ingredients that were grown in industrial agriculture, but they were eating them quite happily, knowing that there wasn’t any animal product in it. Their reasoning behind being vegan, was apparently to minimize animal suffering, but in my mind, they were actually causing more cumulative harm than they would have caused if they were eating meat."

Why?

"Well… Don’t get me wrong, I like folks who eat vegan diets because at least they care enough to want to do less harm, but most of their food is heavily processed, most is from unknown origin, and a large portion of the calories vegans consume are soy based. And growing soybeans in a way that minimizes suffering is tough. Most, I would say 99.9% of soy beans grown, are grown in a monoculture, and they rely on outside inputs for fertilizer, and unless they are organic they rely on lots of toxic chemicals to be sprayed on for insecticides, fungicides, herbicides… more and more they’re GMO in the seed. So it’s all kinds of bad. If you’re eating stuff that contains palm oil grown in once-rainforests or anything with corn or soy beans, anything that’s grown in the absence of a functioning ecosystem by industrial farmers…to me, the misery is just more spread out."

"There is no magic bullet. There is no one way to eat that is going to be devoid of guilt or devoid of suffering. There is no way to exist in this world without taking the life of other beings. And that complex truth was missing for me, and it’s still missing for a lot of people… They just go to this magical place called the supermarket, and these magical trucks come in the middle of the night, and magical ferries put all this stuff on eye level shelves, where you just go in there and give this magical money to somebody, and they give you all the things you need to survive. Well, that’s all really convenient, but it’s really disconnecting. And as long as you’re doing that, you can believe this myth that you can eat and survive without doing any harm to anybody else. That myth was shattered when I read that book."

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Stok commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 1:12pm

freeride76 wrote: "There is no magic bullet. There is no one way to eat that is going to be devoid of guilt or devoid of suffering. There is no way to exist in this world without taking the life of other beings. And that complex truth was missing for me, and it’s still missing for a lot of people… They just go to this magical place called the supermarket, and these magical trucks come in the middle of the night, and magical ferries put all this stuff on eye level shelves, where you just go in there and give this magical money to somebody, and they give you all the things you need to survive. Well, that’s all really convenient, but it’s really disconnecting. And as long as you’re doing that, you can believe this myth that you can eat and survive without doing any harm to anybody else. That myth was shattered when I read that book."

This is a good piece here, I agree with this.

I don't necessarily agree with the horrible packaged shit and processed side of things. Yes it's easy to get nasty processed vegan foods, just as it's easy to get nasty processed non vegan foods (I'm thinking cheap sausages, meat pies, gelatin etc.). A lot of vegans choose to avoid overly processed foods like mock meat, and there are heaps of other options for calories than just soy. Also, it's quite easy to get certified organic soy products.

Also, I brought this up previously, but 80% of the worlds soy is used for animal agriculture. (http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/footprint/agriculture/soy/). There's also some 16 billion animals currently in our agriculture industry (worldwide). So, even if the whole world turned vegan there'd surely be a significant net reduction in soy production and consumption. Note that I'm not saying the answer is for the whole world to turn vegan (well at least straight away!).

Back to the last paragraph regarding no magic bullet - this is correct. But unfortunately I think it is a poor excuse used by many to justify continuing consumption habits - as in'the world's fucked either way so why should I change what I do'.

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Stok commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 1:16pm

AndyM wrote:
Stok wrote:
mk1 wrote: How's the new religion going Stok - faith still burning strong?

Not a religion in any way or form mate, but yes I'm still happily following a vegan diet.

I can only assume you liken veganism to a religion just so you can incorrectly re-assure yourself it's weird and wrong, and that it's ok for you to continue consuming animals.


Wow, where do you get off telling everyone that they're wrong to consume animals?
Self righteous ego++

Sorry to offed AndyM, but did you not just see mk1 liken being vegan to a religion? Is it ok for him to be self righteous and egotistic to me?

And to be clear, I do think eating animals is ok - in a completely natural environment.

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sharkman commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 1:36pm

for those who choose to eat animals , question, would you eat another human being if needed?

x

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freeride76 commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 1:59pm

Sharkman, that question has been answered many, many times in human history.

When faced with starvation and certain death most people resort to cannibalism.

Not always and not in every case but it's more the rule than the exception.

Thankfully, having to eat another human to survive is an exceedingly rare event.

It's interesting that vegans seem to think that if only people carefully considered their arguments then they would change....but it's very clear that people can carefully consider the arguments for veganism (sustainability, animal suffering, ecological footprint etc) and choose an omnivorous diet.

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Blowin commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 2:10pm

I'd eat another human.

But only if that person was a vegan.

And didn't ride a SUP.

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Stok commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 2:26pm

freeride76 wrote: It's interesting that vegans seem to think that if only people carefully considered their arguments then they would change....but it's very clear that people can carefully consider the arguments for veganism (sustainability, animal suffering, ecological footprint etc) and choose an omnivorous diet.

Well, some people can. A lot of people who see videos such as Earthlings, Lucent or Cowspiracy do change their diet and lifestyle. Not necessarily to a vegan one, but I'm sure they'd consider what they do.

But your point also just shows the stubbornness of humans. People don't change easily. I mean, some people were of the strong opinion that homosexuality was wrong and unnatural, and that they didn't need to accept it. This changed over time.

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freeride76 commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 2:31pm

True.

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Stok commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 2:32pm

sharkman wrote: for those who choose to eat animals , question, would you eat another human being if needed?

People also choose to eat baby animals too...
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lostdoggy commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 2:44pm

Blowin wrote: I'd eat another human.

But only if that person was a vegan.

And didn't ride a SUP.


Please, eat the SUPers too.
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benski commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 2:57pm

Stok wrote:
But your point also just shows the stubbornness of humans.

Only if you start from the position that eating animals is wrong. In actual fact, people hearing all the arguments for a vegan diet and choosing an omnivorous one says nothing about the stubbornness of humans. It says more about the differences in values that people hold, that guide their decisions. I consciously value my nutrition above the life of a given cow. You don't. That doesn't make me any more or less stubborn than you, it just identifies a different value judgement.

Just like your point of view that choosing an omnivorous diet is selfish, and that surfers are by definition selfish, your arguments are based on the presupposition that eating animals is inherently wrong. Open your mind to the idea that it is not so, and those arguments fall away to a value judgement. A chosen line in the sand. Everyone has to make their own and that's fine, but veganism is not inherently more right than others.

It may be objectively better to eat vegan in Australia given the way animals are farmed in Australia, but it is in no way inherently better than eating animals in and of itself. At least if it is, I haven't been shown why and we're a good number of pages into this conversation.

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freeride76 commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 3:12pm

Comment from an omnivore I agree with wholeheartedly.

"Eating animals ethically, as Marie described above, is possible ( possible, but it does not necessary exist) only on a very small scale, in an environment of small, diverse family farm or homestead. As soon as it becomes commercial, ethic suffers. I moved to the land from the city to solve for myself the same problem as Daniel was facing. And I’ve gone through the same path of thinking as Daniel did, and came to the same conclusion – small farm as diverse regenerative ecosystem with native plants and heritage breeds of animals, who are important part of this ecosystem. This is the only sustainable way I can see. To grow sustainably and locally, to eat seasonally. And whatever the land you are walking on is providing you with naturally and sustainably is your ideal diet. I’ve been vegan for many years. Now I am drinking my milk and eating my meat. It is still never easy for me. But, the burden of guilt for my food and for my environmental impact is off my shoulders now. I am doing my best for myself, for my few customers, for my animals, for my land and at the end of the day, for the planet. I am not sure whether this model could feed the world. But if to think of putting all the soy and corn acres back into the hands of small farmers, probably it could. There would be no cheap junk on the grocery stores shelves, but this is something we can survive without.
This guy is 100% right. Better to eat lard and tallow and butter from pastured animals, raised ethically and sustainably on a small local farm, than to use coconut and palm oils brought here from Africa, which is loosing it’s rainforests, which are, as we know, chimp’s and orang-outang’s and other specie’s habitat, at enormous pace, just to satisfy our needs for “ethical” fats.

Boycott animal factories, boycott imported, not seasonal food, find your small farmer, there are a lot of them out there. Visit the farm, meet the land, meet the animals, probably volunteer there couple days a year or just bring your kids to show them how their food is growing. The greater the demand for local ethical food, the more farmers will switch from stupid routine of growing chemical corn to something much better, healthier and more satisfying. It is a long process and consumers are a driving force. Please! Do not just avoid the problem, do something!"

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 3:13pm

And another, seeing as I catch and eat about 99% of my own fish within five k's of my house.

"Thank you for the interesting interview and comments. Pescatereanism is a happy medium that addresses most if not all major vegan concerns. Wild salmon, for example, are one of the most natural and health promoting foods on earth, providing ESSENTIAL nutrients lacking in the terrestrial food supply. Wild salmon live 95% of their lives as nature intended, and are only caught just as they begin the final weeks of their life cycle. In Bristol Bay, Alaska last year fifty million sockeye salmon returned, a testament to that states successful fisheries management program. 20% of these fish passed freely to the spawning grounds to perpetuate the run, while the rest were ‘harvestable surplus’ and became some of the last truly wild, naturally ‘organic’ food on earth. Salmon and other seafood from well regulated fisheries (see MSC.org) is among the most sustainable foods from just about every conceivable perspective. Inputs of land, water, chemicals, veterinary drugs, and labor are minimal or even non existent, lmpact on biodiversity is less than the best organic farm, and CO2 contribution is far less than any other meat alternative. Finally, fish has long been known as “brain food” which is certainly something we need a lot more of.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6W-Ss5MCRKU"

chook's picture
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chook commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 3:42pm

just wondering, how many of you meat eaters have ever slaughtered, dressed and butchered one of the cows, sheep or pigs that you've eaten? maybe a chook?

benski's picture
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benski commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 3:48pm

Not me. Though I've watched on as it happened once. Why do you ask, chook?

fitzroy-21's picture
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fitzroy-21 commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 3:52pm

Yeah chook, have done all of the above a number of times. Not on my own of course, a mate who is a butcher gives me a hand and shows me the ropes. A full beast is a big job.

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chook commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 3:57pm

ben, personal reasons...just trying to flush out the chook murderers.

yeah, a cow is a whole other ball game compared to a sheep or even pig. you need a chain saw just to get the head off and a tractor to lift it into the air. rabbit are a good size.

years ago, a neighbour somehow nicked a meat inspection stamp. he would slaughter a few sheep, throw them in the back of the car, drive up to sydney and sell them in pubs.

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freeride76 commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 3:54pm

As opposed to all the vegans growing their own soybeans?

Not a hundred percent sure but fairly certain vegan ism is far more a diet of the urban classes.

It'd be extremely hard to survive on your own home grown food as a vegan. As an omnivore it's much easier to live off local food, grow, catch your own.

chook's picture
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chook commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 4:04pm

pretty sure most meat eaters are also of the urban classes... urban dwellers who don't even know how to pick a good cut of meat in the butcher shop, let alone raise and kill a cow in their backyard.

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 4:16pm

Sorry Chook but your point is?

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 4:23pm

sharkman wrote: for those who choose to eat animals , question, would you eat another human being if needed?

Yes, if it was a matter between life and death and meant doing so gave me a better chance of survival, for instance we are trapped and one person died and their body was still okay to eat, it would be hard and you wouldn't enjoy it.

But in those life or death circumstances people generally do what i needed to survive.

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tonybarber commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 4:55pm

This chat is reminding me of the line in 'Notting Hill' - 'those carrots have been murdered. Poor carrots'.
Hope you all enjoy your meals and not think too much about how it arrived on the table.

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batfink commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 7:54pm

Stok wrote: But your point also just shows the stubbornness of humans. People don't change easily. I mean, some people were of the strong opinion that homosexuality was wrong and unnatural, and that they didn't need to accept it. This changed over time.

Freeride accepted that with great grace. Perhaps he didn't notice the high-handedness and sense of superiority that drips from that false analogy.

But I did.

A post way back referred to 'how's that religion going', which you dismissed casually. It's worth examining the evangelical tone and seeing the religious fervour behind your arguments and understanding the connection with religion in that sense.

As mentioned before, you are free to eat what you like, but the ethics argument is not as clear cut as you make out, and freeride has selected a number of paragraphs from other sites that were relevant. I would respect your position much more if you didn't evangelise.

But the fact remains that vegan diet was developed from a religious perspective, a fairly out there one at that, not from a philosophical movement. Latter day arguments about ethics, sustainability and the like do not hold up to closer examination, and were developed post-facto, and in that sense are dishonest. Have the courage of your convictions.

Sustainability is great, but vegans are allowed to eat GMO products of all varieties, pesticide created veggies, chemically fertilised soy beans etc. No problem with them if you're a vegan.

And your response is that you can eat perfectly grown organic, pesticide and fertiliser free locally produced food. Of course you can, but that wipes out at least half of the human race, as there isn't enough productive land for 8 billion people to eat.

Whichever way you turn there is a cost, and it is a cost taken in organic living beings, one way or the other.

I understand what you are saying about eating foods that don't involve killing animals. Eggs and dairy don't, but then vegan arguments resort to animal 'suffering', an unknowable position and a inchoate argument.

And the nett effect of veganism would be the demise of all cows, pigs and chickens. Not the death of individuals, but the wiping out of the species. Do you think we would keep them around, using otherwise useful land, if they weren't food factories?

And do you use one of those wildly popular cooking or juicing appliances, or other manufactured product that was put together by children in asian sweat factories? What about their harm?

How can you live a perfectly ethical life? When you really look at it, closely, somewhere along the line you hurt someone or something. Every time. There is no free lunch!

And who has the time to do all the research, all that work, and still somehow contribute to society in a meaningful way, that earns a few dollars and puts food on your children's plate. I've been doing it for 30 years and haven't scratched the surface, and I read often and analyse constantly.

Eventually you realise that making an effort is important, and choosing your own effort to make is important to your own dignity and self respect, and evangelising so that everyone else gets on to the one and only same train that you are on reveals a level of personal growth not yet achieved. You've got to stop using veganism as a means to look down on your fellow man. That is at the heart of my issues with dietary discussions generally, not just veganism.

On other matters, I wish that uplift could put together a post without demeaning language and personal attacks. He espouses stuff that is actually at the cutting edge of research on a lot of things, but I couldn't get through the aaaayyyyyyeeeeeees to be bothered finding it.

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dellabeach commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 7:56pm

Welcome to the Freak's Club, Stok. I gave up eating animals 23 years ago after having contributed to the demise of quite a few of them. Will be turning 54 this year and surf most days, over the last few days, twice a day as the points have been pumping. Can still easily put in 3-4 hour sessions, even at Kirra with a sweep. No shortage of energy. I don't take any supplements, just tasty vege dishes and fruit. Last check up returned perfectly normal blood levels for calcium, B12 and iron. Good luck with your change in diet. If you have any questions, message me on my FB page, Sunset Surfer.

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Stok commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 10:26pm

dellabeach wrote: Welcome to the Freak's Club, Stok. I gave up eating animals 23 years ago after having contributed to the demise of quite a few of them. Will be turning 54 this year and surf most days, over the last few days, twice a day as the points have been pumping. Can still easily put in 3-4 hour sessions, even at Kirra with a sweep. No shortage of energy. I don't take any supplements, just tasty vege dishes and fruit. Last check up returned perfectly normal blood levels for calcium, B12 and iron. Good luck with your change in diet. If you have any questions, message me on my FB page, Sunset Surfer.

Hah, freak's club...really? Thanks for the goodluck, and great to hear you're healthy and happy.
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Stok commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 10:53pm

batfink wrote:
Stok wrote: But your point also just shows the stubbornness of humans. People don't change easily. I mean, some people were of the strong opinion that homosexuality was wrong and unnatural, and that they didn't need to accept it. This changed over time.

Freeride accepted that with great grace. Perhaps he didn't notice the high-handedness and sense of superiority that drips from that false analogy.


I can assure you there's no superiority here, only open minded discussion. I never look down on people, everyone has their story and their reasons for what they do.

My beliefs and reasoning are mine only, and although I openly discuss them, I don't push them to others. I do find however that whenever I mention that I'm vegan it evokes insecurities in some people - and they can get quite aggressive with me (mostly passively). As if they assume my one goal is to prove what they are doing is wrong.

The thing is, diet is such a deep seeded thing in peoples life, whether or not the know it. Eating is something you do several times per day, every day of your life. The general, normal developed world diet is to eat whatever you want, and not give a shit what anyone else thinks. Of course when a group of people, or an individual changes from this a general sense of uneasiness in the general public will be felt.

It's like people who eat paleo, or gluten free, or don't eat red meat or whatever - it results in a similar emotion for a lot of people - why would a person bother doing that?

Then there's the us versus them mentality...you create a picture of what these people who follow the diet are like, based on negative experiences with some individuals.

All of a sudden...it looks like a religion.

Well I tried to liken being an omnivore to a religion too, and I'll try again - I know of people who worship boiled chicken because they believe the more they eat, the more protein they will get and the more muscly they will become. I know people who feel they need to consume a glass of milk each day to get their calcium fix. The reality is that the preachy/religious side of consuming animal products is actually stronger.

The crux of it for me is I don't believe everyone should be vegan necessarily. I just believe that we have moved ourselves out of the natural world. The way we have sucked wild animals into our economy is just horrendous. The way people justify this as part of the food chain is ridiculous. There needs to be more open education about how we get our food, and how animals are slaughtered. People need to be able to make conscious, considered decisions from a young age. If people choose to continue eating meat, so be it.

Oh, and your comment about wiping out species if the world became vegan - had a good chuckle at that.

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Stok commented Tuesday, 16 Feb 2016 at 10:59pm

Who here happily eat's pork?

Have you seen Lucent? It's a 2014 documentary showing footage from Australian piggerys.

I recommend watching - warning, it's not exactly nice viewing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KArL5YjaL5U