Surfing and Veganism

Stok's picture
Stok started the topic in Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 3:17pm

I think surfers, by their nature, are generally pretty in tune with the environment - more so than the general public.

We regularly get to fully immerse ourselves in the raw, unforgiving ocean, sometimes that ocean may be hours away from civilisation. We get to see sides of the ocean many don't, and all surfers feel somewhat connected to it.

Surfers are usually concerned about climate change, dwindling natural resources, excessive human population increase, exploitation of sea animals (Bali Dolphins, Seaworld etc), Tuna cages (Victor Harbor) and shark diving - hell even general littering (I've never seen a true surfer litter).

So I thought I’d put it out there – is anyone on this forum vegan? If not, have you ever considered it?

Living a vegan lifestyle is pretty much as close as you can get to being sustainable in our modern society. Aside from the health and serious and significant ethical reasons to become vegan (and there are so, so many of ethical reasons available), sustainability is a huge one. Human demand for seafood is straight out killing our oceans. Livestock is also killing them – directly through creating ‘ocean dead zones’ near farmland and indirectly through agriculture’s massive carbon footprint.

As a lifelong surfer, and only a recent vegan (6 months) I encourage you to watch this, and consider if you want to continue being a part of one of the most destructive ways of life the earth has ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLgkrQSRy9E

p.s. I became vegan only for sustainable and ethical reasons – I actually don’t think eating meat is necessarily wrong, and I do believe in the food chain and apex predators – But the way humans consume is not what I would consider part of the food chain. We’re not an apex predator – we’re a destructive bacteria.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 4:08pm

Yep, I was vegan for six months about ten years ago. Like you, I did it for ethical reasons having read some of Peter Singer's books, and although I believed in it (still do) I simply wasn't healthy while vegan. I lost a shitload of weight, had joint problems, and didn't have any endurance. The diet wasn't for me so I gave it up and went back to vegetarian, then vegequarian, then eventually to a normal diet (by societal standards). These days it's everything in moderation and try and ignore the guilt.

Gonna be interesting to see where this thread goes.

Stok's picture
Stok's picture
Stok commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 4:31pm

stunet wrote:

Yep, I was vegan for six months about ten years ago. Like you, I did it for ethical reasons having read some of Peter Singer's books, and although I believed in it (still do) I simply wasn't healthy while vegan. I lost a shitload of weight, had joint problems, and didn't have any endurance. The diet wasn't for me so I gave it up and went back to vegetarian, then vegequarian, then eventually to a normal diet (by societal standards). These days it's everything in moderation and try and ignore the guilt.

Gonna be interesting to see where this thread goes.

Great to hear you gave it a shot Stu, and that you're a believer in moderation - much better than not doing anything at all, and better again than opposing being vegan (which is still a huge thing in modern culture, thanks to Meat and Livestock Australia).

The health side of things is interesting, although not really the point of my post. I turned vegan quickly - almost immediately after doing some quick research on (so called ) humane farming techniques (in Australia and other first world nations. After changing my diet, I must admit for a week or so I did feel flat and a bit weaker - it was psychological though. Now I feel fine - although I've only been doing it for 6 months - no different in strength, weight or endurance. A common issue many new vegans have is not actually eating enough. A meat and dairy based diet is high in protein and fats, as such, you feel full quite quickly - you need to increase your serving sizes on a vegan diet.

I find it pretty easy being vegan as you pretty much just replace milk with soymilk, meat with tofu/beans/lentils and if you're desperate for cheese - just get vegan cheese.

dandandan's picture
dandandan's picture
dandandan commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 4:34pm

I've gone through stages: vegetarian as a kid without really knowing what it was, conscious vegetarianism for most of my teens, vegequarian for most of my early twenties, only tried veganism for short stints. I've never really versed myself in the debate - I innately feel that the meat industry as it is today is undeniably wrong. That's not to say that I think meat eating in all its forms is wrong, but industrial meat is, for me, ethically abhorrent. During all my years in Indo (more than five years by now at least) I've eaten meat less than a twenty or thirty times I'd say.

These days I don't really know how to identify my eating habits. I can't remember the last time I went into a supermarket, or bought meat to cook for myself. I eat meat when I feel like it, which is rarely, and feel my most energetic and positive when I've been eating a mix of rice, beans and seasonal veg with about 400 tonne of chocolate in between. My philosophy to life at the moment has been on reducing waste, which dictates my eating habits a lot. All my food comes from either farmer's markets or bulk stores, which necessitates a healthier diet than I used to have. So far so good - though the chocolate thing is getting really out of hand.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 4:38pm

I'm piscatorial vegetarian.

Have been for about eight years.

I've never felt better.

I was full raw ,vegan when I started and that lasted about 8 months till it was unsustainable due to my location at that time. I found my endurance sky rocketed when I gave up meat, but I also gave up sugar, dairy , piss and everything else you care to name, so you can decide where the improvement came from.

I did lose a lot of explosive strength though that caused me to include seafood.

I'm not down on the seafood as I'll catch as much of it myself as possible.

I went down this road due to major health problems in many people close to me and I thought....fuck that.

BTW Stok - that line about humans being destructive bacteria.....utter bullshit.

I've had less offensive things drip out the eye of my cock than that sentiment.

Stok's picture
Stok's picture
Stok commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 4:45pm

Blowin wrote: I'm piscatorial vegetarian.

Have been for about eight years.

I've never felt better.

I was full raw ,vegan when I started and that lasted about 8 months till it was unsustainable due to my location at that time. I found my endurance sky rocketed when I gave up meat, but I also gave up sugar, dairy , piss and everything else you care to name, so you can decide where the improvement came from.

I did lose a lot of explosive strength though that caused me to include seafood.

I'm not down on the seafood as I'll catch as much of it myself as possible.

I went down this road due to major health problems in many people close to me and I thought....fuck that.

BTW Stok - that line about humans being destructive bacteria.....utter bullshit.

I've had less offensive things drip out the eye of my cock than that sentiment.

Care to elaborate on that last point Blowin?

I'd like to know how our current consumption and growth habit is any different to that of a bacteria?

p.s. I was only really mentioning that to quash the 'food chain' arguement which is commonly used against veganism

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 5:04pm

I generally try to be pretty responsible in regards to the environment and other living things etc but i could never be a vegan id go crazy i don't smoke don't do drugs and rarely drink and am pretty healthy but i love my meat, only meat I've eaten that i wouldn't eat again is dog it did nothing for me and I've since seen how bad they are treated in transport etc.

If i got really ethical minded on it all id rather pay double for true free range meat, anyway my wife would kick me out of my home and divorce me if i even suggested becoming vegan.

The way i look at it i have the best of both worlds i get to eat yummy meat meals but also enjoy some yummy vegan food.

I think the concept of being a vegan is interesting its widely believed these days that a large part of what makes us human is that we are the only animal that cooks food, its believed around the time we started cooking food in particular meat was the period we we really evolved our brain power, if this is true i find it ironic that we are where we are today because we eat meat and as a result people now have the choice to become vegans..kinda funny that.

Oh i did give up Cows milk for years and only drank Soya milk but then i read about how bad soya milk is so now I'm back to cows milk.

BTW. Dandan Thats crazy to read…Ive alway seen Indonesian's as huge meat eaters, my wife's family eat so much meat and eggs and when i go up Sumatran islands its all fish i actually crave vegetables and fruit but it's actually often hard to get and quite expensive as most is shipped in from the mainland.

For further reference and common sense.

General Social issues: Rita Panahi & Lauren Southern
Indigenous issues: Jacinta Price and Anthony Dillion
Gender: Debra Soh.
Islam: Armin Navabi & Brigitte Gabriel
Population: Dick Smith

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 5:12pm

So Stok - when you sit down to a meal with your family do you resemble a bunch of filthy bacteria.

Or was it my family you were referring to ?

Or maybe, you and me , we're both good cunts and it's all those animals we don't know personally that are the destructive problem that needs to be exterminated from the Earth ?

Unfortunately parroting the Matrix doesn't render you a considered person.

Otherwise Braudulio and myself would be president and 2IC of a global government.

BTW Aside from the truth in the old joke : Q How can you tell if there is a vegetarian at your party ?

A. They'll tell you.

I find that a lot of meat eaters can get very defensive and threatened by my choosing to not eat meat.

Lines like " Fuck that , life's too short to not eat bacon " and " You're gonna die from something anyway"
Usually being espoused by the type of life in the fast lane / FOMO / YOLO cunts that think nothing of spending every waking hour in front of the TV when they're not at work......not that there's anything wrong with that.

But I don't judge them on their life choices, why the fuck do they think they've got carte Blanche to tell me what I'm doing that's distasteful to them ?

Whoa - I'm getting upset here, my blood sugar must be down .

Could be time for a nut meat / I can't believe it's not butter sandwich.

Another joke people, I'd rather put a lepers cock in my mouth than any of that over processed faux food that seems to get peddled at Vegoes.

Each to their own though.

Stok's picture
Stok's picture
Stok commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 5:10pm

indo-dreaming wrote: I generally try to be pretty responsible in regards to the environment and other living things etc but i could never be a vegan id go crazy i don't smoke don't do drugs and rarely drink and am pretty healthy but i love my meat, only meat I've eaten that i wouldn't eat again is dog it did nothing for me and I've since seen how bad they are treated in transport etc.

If i got really ethical minded on it all id rather pay double for true free range meat, anyway my wife would kick me out of my home and divorce me if i even suggested becoming vegan.

The way i look at it i have the best of both worlds i get to eat yummy meat meals but also enjoy some yummy vegan food.

I think the concept of being a vegan is interesting its widely believed these days that a large part of what makes us human is that we are the only animal that cooks food, its believed around the time we started cooking food in particular meat was the period we we really evolved our brain power, if this is true i find it ironic that we are where we are today because we eat meat and as a result people now have the choice to become vegans..kinda funny that.

Couple of interesting points there Indo:

Firstly, don't buy into ethical meat - it doesn't really exist. Even if it did, it would be incredibly unsustainable due to the amount of land required for free range animals to be farmed.

I started out like you - enjoyed meat and the occasional vegan dish, but eventually questioned was it worth continuing with meat just for my individual pleasure.

The dog thing is also classic - the amount of people who were in uproar over the dog eating festival in China...funny that only a couple of days ago Australia had what could effectively be classified as a day to eat baby animals and celebrate 'straya.

Finally the evolution side of things is also interesting - eating cooked meat etc. I believe in this and it does make sense. Cooked meat may have allowed our brains to develop. Who know why humans were put on this planet, and who knows if we were designed to eat meat or not really (we've got small canine teeth, but mostly herbivorous teeth?) - but I feel we're heading down the wrong path. The thing is we're smart enough now to be compassionate. We were compassionate about accepting each other, sexuality etc - now I feel we are slowly becoming smart enough to become more compassionate towards animals too (or at least we should be). Compassion to me is a sign of intelligence and maturity. It is ironic, that's for sure.

Stok's picture
Stok's picture
Stok commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 5:28pm

Blowin wrote: So Stok - when you sit down to a meal with your family do you resemble a bunch of filthy bacteria.

Or was it my family you were referring to ?

Or maybe, you and me , we're both good cunts and it's all those animals we don't know personally that are the destructive problem that needs to be exterminated from the Earth ?

Unfortunately parroting the Matrix doesn't render you a considered person.

Otherwise Braudulio and myself would be president and 2IC of a global government.

BTW Aside from the truth in the old joke : Q How can you tell if there is a vegetarian at your party ?

A. They'll tell you.

I find that a lot of meat eaters can get very defensive and threatened by my choosing to not eat meat.

Lines like " Fuck that , life's too short to not eat bacon " and " You're gonna die from something anyway"
Usually being espoused by the type of life in the fast lane / FOMO / YOLO cunts that think nothing of spending every waking hour in front of the TV when they're not at work......not that there's anything wrong with that.

But I don't judge them on their life choices, why the fuck do they think they've got carte Blanche to tell me what I'm doing that's distasteful to them ?

Whoa - I'm getting upset here, my blood sugar must be down .

Could be time for a nut meat / I can't believe it's not butter sandwich.

Another joke people, I'd rather put a lepers cock in my mouth than any of that over processed faux food that seems to get peddled at Vegoes.

Each to their own though.

Lol Blowin - some good ones there.

I can assure you I don't hate people, consider my family (or yours!) as filthy bacteria or think we're in some sort of matrix. people are great - not perfect - but great. We've done some bad things in the past, and I hope that factory farmed meat will become just that - a bad thing in the past that we've learnt from.

I do however feel that the way we've spread across the globe and scarred the natural environment with civilisation is very similar to the spread of a bacteria, and our insatiable appetite for finite resources and are excessive waste production can only be labelled as destructive. Sure we've got the potential for greatness, and we can still turn this ship around and become sustainable - but right now, we're not doing too well! Again - I hope this will be a thing humans can look back on in the distant future and say 'shit, we really have come a long way since then!'

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 5:47pm

I guess everyone has their own idea of what ethical means to me ethical meat exist i think you have to look at each meat type differently then take into consideration different aspects like how the animals are treated quality of life and then environmental impact etc these all vary greatly, from a fish thats caught in the ocean compared to a pig thats restricted to a pretty pointless life with no room to move.

Maybe some would say just the act of ending an animals life to further your own is unethical, but i personally don't feel that way, life and death is just part of life's cycle, watch any wildlife documentaries and you will soon see that, you could even say nature is the cruellest of them all.

I also don't have a problem with killing an animal for food although i do admit that often when i have had to kill an animal to eat thats more than a fish, like a duck or a chicken or a pig, i don't enjoy eating it as much, its almost like i can still feel the animals warmth and smell its smell etc and it gets in the way of me enjoying it, but i get the same thing when i cook, i don't enjoy it half as much as when someone else cooks its like the food is still just ingredients rather than a meal.

I think thats kind of sad though, i think thats just because I'm so detached from the true cycle of life as when i see my Indonesian friends or mother in law kill an animal to eat or cook, they have no problem eating it, i almost feel jealous i can't be like that like I'm further away from the reality of life, i think when people go vegan then it pushes you even further away from who we really are, i guess that's why its a popular lifestyle choice these days for many inner city types.

Ive alway wanted to be put in a situation for a year or so somewhere remote where i had to farm everything vegetables, fruit, animals and be fully self sufficient, it would be really interesting to see how i went and how i felt about things after it.

BTW. For me i only ate dog once to see what it was like, but i have since seen them shipped on boats in Indo legs tied together and thrown in a pile in a heashen bag , to me dogs are different to other animals though as most domesticated animals have been breed for meat or milk and are still almost wild in a sense, while dogs have been an animal that humans have breed for companionship.

For further reference and common sense.

General Social issues: Rita Panahi & Lauren Southern
Indigenous issues: Jacinta Price and Anthony Dillion
Gender: Debra Soh.
Islam: Armin Navabi & Brigitte Gabriel
Population: Dick Smith

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 8:49pm

Stok, how do you get your protein?

How processed is that protein source, where is it grown and how much storage, transport etc etc does it need?

I and my family are majority fish a quarians or whatever the term is. 99% of the fish I can catch myself less than 5 ks from my house( i haven't bought fresh fish for years, there's always a can of sardines in the cupboard as a backup).
We eat a bit of free range chook, I'm self sufficient in eggs from my own hens. They eat our veggie scraps, bugs and a bit of grain.
I haven't really looked into it very deeply- so theres plenty of room for my views to be modified- but when I see the heavily processed protein sources that vegans eat (particularly soy) it seems to me far less sustainable to me than harvesting/farming my own protein sources locally.

Is meat unsustainable? Depends on how it's done. Seen any of Joel Salatins farming?
http://www.polyfacefarms.com/

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 10:47pm

Speaking of Soy, this is a great well balanced read on Soy IMO its not something that you should totally avoid but for me its one that i don't want to put to much of it in my body (hence why i went back to cows milk after years of drinking soy) as its in so many things already, you name it and they are in it.

http://authoritynutrition.com/is-soy-bad-for-you-or-good/

Also for people who think by being vegan or vegetarian that means they don't have blood on there hands so to speak, well thats not exactly true either, things just aren't that simple these days.

http://theconversation.com/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-anim...

For further reference and common sense.

General Social issues: Rita Panahi & Lauren Southern
Indigenous issues: Jacinta Price and Anthony Dillion
Gender: Debra Soh.
Islam: Armin Navabi & Brigitte Gabriel
Population: Dick Smith

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 10:46pm

Soy is garbage.

Stok's picture
Stok's picture
Stok commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 10:57pm

freeride76 wrote: Stok, how do you get your protein?

How processed is that protein source, where is it grown and how much storage, transport etc etc does it need?

I and my family are majority fish a quarians or whatever the term is. 99% of the fish I can catch myself less than 5 ks from my house( i haven't bought fresh fish for years, there's always a can of sardines in the cupboard as a backup).
We eat a bit of free range chook, I'm self sufficient in eggs from my own hens. They eat our veggie scraps, bugs and a bit of grain.
I haven't really looked into it very deeply- so theres plenty of room for my views to be modified- but when I see the heavily processed protein sources that vegans eat (particularly soy) it seems to me far less sustainable to me than harvesting/farming my own protein sources locally.

Is meat unsustainable? Depends on how it's done. Seen any of Joel Salatins farming?
http://www.polyfacefarms.com/

Vegan protein sources are plentiful - I mainly eat green peas, beans (chickpeas, blackbeans), tofu, tempeh and quinoa - but there's lots more. They're not highly processed or un-natural at all, and are all very good for you. I think it's a common attitude that vegan protein sources must be overly processed or unnatural - which simply isn't true.

It sounds like you live quite sustainably - good work. The problem is though that most people now live in crowded cities, and there's literally just too many people to justify letting everyone have a block of fertile land to raise chickens less than 5kms from the coast - so most people get their food from industries. You're a lucky exception in this case.

Your comment regarding how much storage/transport etc. touches on ecological footprint. The footprint of meat, seafood and dairy is huge - the farm lands, the slaughterhouses, the freezers, the fishing trawlers, the transport etc. is massive. Some interesting stats I've heard recently is that 80% of the world's soy production goes to feeding livestock, and 1 kg of beef requires 20,000L of water to produce. Sure fruit and veg has an ecological footprint, but it's tiny and almost insignificant in comparison.

Sustainable farms are probably better but they don't really address the ethical side of things.

So yes, your lifestyle is more sustainable than that of a vegan who buys food - but not everyone can get what you have.

Stok's picture
Stok's picture
Stok commented Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 11:19pm

indo-dreaming wrote: Speaking of Soy, this is a great well balanced read on Soy IMO its not something that you should totally avoid but for me its one that i don't want to put to much of it in my body (hence why i went back to cows milk after years of drinking soy) as its in so many things already, you name it and they are in it.

http://authoritynutrition.com/is-soy-bad-for-you-or-good/

Also for people who think by being vegan or vegetarian that means they don't have blood on there hands so to speak, well thats not exactly true either, things just aren't that simple these days.

http://theconversation.com/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-anim...


Soy is just a bean - and yes probably too much of it would be an issue. But don't kid yourself, cow's milk is not in any way what so ever good for human consumption. It's entirely designed to feed a calf - nothing more. Every mammal requires milk prior to being weened - humans are the only animals who have decided to continue consuming the milk from some animals. There's no way it can be healthy. You know it's loaded with pus and mucus right?

Regarding the issues raised in the other article - like you said it's not that simple. You can't only look at cows (what about pigs, chicken and fish?) and you can't just use protein as a comparison (what about fibre and carbohydrates?). The article does raise some good points though - being vegan is not a completely cruelty free lifestyle - but it's less cruel than the alternative that's for sure.

Also I get where you're coming from in your other post - we're so disconnected from our food in Australia.

mk1's picture
mk1's picture
mk1 commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 2:56am

"There's no way it can be healthy. You know it's loaded with pus and mucus right? " Yep and potentially we got the enzymes to consume dairy from the shit and mucus on the cows teats. I don't believe a moderate amount of dairy is harmful, and certainly some fermented dairy is quite healthy.

I eat a low meat diet, and wild caught or non-factory farmed where able. I personally don't see the need for veganism over vegetarianism as long as ethical/sustainable practices and consumption levels are followed. I also don't really get why people hold hyperstrict labels around their eating habits, its kind of self-flagellation via mental-obsessiveness, it all just sounds like an eating disorder to me actually - there's a huge gulf between "low meat" and "vegetarian" although the diet might be almost identical depending on the individuals.

I believe the major benefits are in going to low meat diets and avoiding factory farming practices for the remainder. That's 85% of the environmental/moral value right there, while going full vego would get you to about 97%, veganism on top just doesn't seem to hold much value. I'd like to see a wider variety of wild/sustainable meat sources (local processed wild rabbit, crocodile, wild bird, insect, jellyfish, various sea creatures, etc) with a lower overall intake made up for by more plants. Heck, just eating more Halal foods would be a start!

ID I agree soy is over processed and usually full of sugars but don't mind a bit, normally mix between soy, almond, coconut, rice/grains milks, mostly they're water anyway. Not into drinking a lot of dairy - save that for the coffee, or yoghurts, cheese etc.

FYI that conversation article has so many logical holes in it, makes you have to wonder about the validity of their whole website. I am not sure how they could publish it to be honest.

penmister's picture
penmister's picture
penmister commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 5:23am

This chick at work gave me a soy sushi she found.. i pressed it and it exploded on her back..so funny she said it burnt.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 7:00am

Stok wrote:

It sounds like you live quite sustainably - good work. The problem is though that most people now live in crowded cities, and there's literally just too many people to justify letting everyone have a block of fertile land to raise chickens less than 5kms from the coast - so most people get their food from industries. You're a lucky exception in this case.

Yes and no. Lots of people now signing into small farming co-ops where they can get sustainable free range food both plant and animal in the local area surrounding their city.
This is probably way more sustainable and smaller ecological footprint than eating quinoa flown in from South America.

There is also the issue of our physiology and optimal nutrition. Obviously we are not obligate carnivores but we don't have the massive digestive tract of herbivores either. We've evolved to be omnivores and there's no doubt that animal proteins are far easier for us to digest and assimilate certain nutrients than plant proteins.......try putting a pregnant mum or a kid on a vegan diet and you understand that very quickly.
Not having a go at you Stok, it's a great topic.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 10:34am

I do agree on one thing, most of us eat way too much meat, i think because we are so disconnected from the reality of it and its just so east to get, just buy it at the shop all cut and packaged, we wouldn't eat so much meat if we had to actually kill or put the effort in to getting it, its not natural but then again our diets and just about everything we eat is now far from natural even fruits and vegetables have changed so much from what they were and i guess you could say if you live somewhere cold its not really natural to eat foods that aren't from your climate.

No offence i don't mean this personally it a good topic, I'm just talking in general, i find vegans no different to religious people, they have some good idea's and beliefs on general living, the problem is many seem to think everyone should do the same and almost feel a need to preach and convert.

Personally i couldn't think of anything worse than being a vegan not just because i love meat but i also love food like cheese and eggs so much and things like eggs are in so many different products, i think it would really suck to need to analyse everything you eat especially when traveling food me food is so much a part of enjoying other cultures and a way to even connect with people of other cultures, for example it would really suck going to Indo and not being able to grab some satay or beef rendang or martabak etc.

Personally for me the biggest problem with my diet currently is how much sugar i eat, I'm trying to cut back but I'm fully addicted to it and its in everything, i also hate the amount of waste and plastics we dispose of, i mean most families fill a big garbage bin a week as do we and we still compost and recycle as much as we can, kinda sucks when you think how much rubbish you dispose of in a year.

BTW. For those strict vegans out there, how far would you take you beliefs?….Would you still take anti venom made from a snake if you got bitten?

For further reference and common sense.

General Social issues: Rita Panahi & Lauren Southern
Indigenous issues: Jacinta Price and Anthony Dillion
Gender: Debra Soh.
Islam: Armin Navabi & Brigitte Gabriel
Population: Dick Smith

Boltsy's picture
Boltsy's picture
Boltsy commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 1:03pm

while we have capitalism, there will minimal sustainability !!!

Boltsy's picture
Boltsy's picture
Boltsy commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 1:03pm

while we have capitalism, there will minimal sustainability !!!

mk1's picture
mk1's picture
mk1 commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 1:57pm
AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 2:03pm

"For those strict vegans out there, how far would you take you beliefs?….Would you still take anti venom made from a snake if you got bitten?"

What about a blood transfusion?

Boltsy's picture
Boltsy's picture
Boltsy commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 3:13pm

mk1....not so sure of this article when there is evidence that in no other time in history is that the balance of wealth is so unequal....when the richest 60 peoples wealth can equal the same as 3 billion peoples poorest and the top 1% of wealthy people have 97% of the wealth

mk1's picture
mk1's picture
mk1 commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 4:03pm

Yes Boltsy, big issue but that doesn't necessarily preclude the arguments in the article. Does indicate the now-failure of capitalism though. I actually started to wonder who those 60 people are, it'd be interesting to find out.

Stok's picture
Stok's picture
Stok commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 5:54pm

freeride76 wrote:
Stok wrote:

It sounds like you live quite sustainably - good work. The problem is though that most people now live in crowded cities, and there's literally just too many people to justify letting everyone have a block of fertile land to raise chickens less than 5kms from the coast - so most people get their food from industries. You're a lucky exception in this case.

Yes and no. Lots of people now signing into small farming co-ops where they can get sustainable free range food both plant and animal in the local area surrounding their city.
This is probably way more sustainable and smaller ecological footprint than eating quinoa flown in from South America.

There is also the issue of our physiology and optimal nutrition. Obviously we are not obligate carnivores but we don't have the massive digestive tract of herbivores either. We've evolved to be omnivores and there's no doubt that animal proteins are far easier for us to digest and assimilate certain nutrients than plant proteins.......try putting a pregnant mum or a kid on a vegan diet and you understand that very quickly.
Not having a go at you Stok, it's a great topic.

I know you're not having a go - it's good open discussion!

I agree with your first paragraph, if such a thing does exist (local co-op farms) then surely that's pretty sustainable. Not sure how workable it would be considering there's like 7M people in Sydney, 5M in Melbourne for example - can everyone really rely on this? How many co-op farms would we need?

Physiology and optimal nutrition is interesting. The dietitians association of Australia does endorse a vegan diet, and even states it's suitable for a developing child. I would agree that physically we have omnivore traits - but a thought which stuck with me for a while was, what would happen if you put a toddler in a room with an apple and a piglet? There's no way the kid would even consider eating the piglet at all - hence I believe we are now evolving beyond being omnivore - maybe before our bodies are necessarily 100% ready for it (but hey - vegan is dietician approved!). It's been raised earlier in this thread that some people find it hard and confronting to kill their own food - which i believe is 100% reasonable. Most people are developed into civilised, compassionate and respectful members of society - not like people of the past who used to rape, pillage, murder etc. as they pleased (think stone age, vikings etc.). Modern people are mostly not killers or hunters, so why should we expect our diet to remain the same? Generally I think it's a good thing that you personally kill your own animals which you're going to eat - but doesn't that make you less evolved? I mean, we don't have the hunting/killing traits which we used to have, so why try to still do it?

There's also the point that people these days consume way more meat than we were designed to - which is not exactly optimal nutrition. Also, lots of meats are well associated with cancers and other health complications too. Also- don't be so precious! Optimal nutrition is one thing, but humans are actually tough and resilient animals! We don't need a perfect nutritious dish every meal to stay healthy!

Finally, although I don't have any experience with pregnancy - I'd imagine that a vegan woman who becomes pregnant would have no issues throughout the pregnancy. But if a meat eater tried to become vegan whilst being pregnant, well, different story I'm sure!

Stok's picture
Stok's picture
Stok commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 6:06pm

indo-dreaming wrote: I do agree on one thing, most of us eat way too much meat, i think because we are so disconnected from the reality of it and its just so east to get, just buy it at the shop all cut and packaged, we wouldn't eat so much meat if we had to actually kill or put the effort in to getting it, its not natural but then again our diets and just about everything we eat is now far from natural even fruits and vegetables have changed so much from what they were and i guess you could say if you live somewhere cold its not really natural to eat foods that aren't from your climate.

No offence i don't mean this personally it a good topic, I'm just talking in general, i find vegans no different to religious people, they have some good idea's and beliefs on general living, the problem is many seem to think everyone should do the same and almost feel a need to preach and convert.

Personally i couldn't think of anything worse than being a vegan not just because i love meat but i also love food like cheese and eggs so much and things like eggs are in so many different products, i think it would really suck to need to analyse everything you eat especially when traveling food me food is so much a part of enjoying other cultures and a way to even connect with people of other cultures, for example it would really suck going to Indo and not being able to grab some satay or beef rendang or martabak etc.

Personally for me the biggest problem with my diet currently is how much sugar i eat, I'm trying to cut back but I'm fully addicted to it and its in everything, i also hate the amount of waste and plastics we dispose of, i mean most families fill a big garbage bin a week as do we and we still compost and recycle as much as we can, kinda sucks when you think how much rubbish you dispose of in a year.

BTW. For those strict vegans out there, how far would you take you beliefs?….Would you still take anti venom made from a snake if you got bitten?

I know you don't mean it in a bad way - but the veganism and religion thing is pretty stupid. You could just as easily label being an omnivore a religion - think of how when you were a kid you were immediately put on an omnivore diet after weening, you worshiped ice creams and had Christmas turkey, Australia day lamb, Easter fish (or whatever else). Omnivores worry about people they care about who become vegan and try to convert them back to being omivore.

So yeah - try not to think like that because your views are lop sided.

I do however feel I should at least make some effort to increase veganism in society - not in a preachy way, but the truth is most people actually don't know where their food comes from, or how it was made, or if the animal was in pain, or was scared, or was taken away from its mother - people should know this. I think it's better to be well educated of how humans acquire their meat these days, whether you eat meat or not - so in that sense I do feel a need to 'spread the good word'...! But yeah, nothing preachy.

As for travelling and veganism in indo - I've got two words for you - Gado Gado!

And you're correct - it's impossible to be completely vegan - I'd still use snake antivenom, or probably would still eat meat if there were no other option (i.e. when I go to a remote village in Indo, I wouldn't bother asking for vegan options lol). But If I can be 60% vegan, or 80%, OR 95%, it's better than nothing right?

batfink's picture
batfink's picture
batfink commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 6:24pm

I was vegetarian for 23 years. No fish, chicken, other animal meat or eggs at all. Not a jot. Even avoided cheeses with animal rennet etc. Pretty pukka. Philosophical reasons.

No more, but I would eat less meat than most.

I respect anyone's decision to choose their diets, and there can be all manner of reasons why one decides, be it health, ethics, religion, whatever.

But stok, the standard arguments for vegan lifestyle are emotive, simplistic and wrong. Again, I'm happy for you and others to make that choice, but you have drunk the vegan kool-aid. I urge you to be more sceptical.

Just a few points, don't have time to cover them all.

Soy, as a substitute has significant ethical issues (land taken up for soy farming), and is either well processed to make soy milk, or is significantly processed in the form of tempeh, tofu etc, so any 'unprocessed' arguments are hard to defend.

Soy has significant other issues, particularly for young females, as there is a substance in it which is chemically almost identical to eostrogen, and is taken up by the human body as eostrogen this can interfere with human hormones. Conversely, it can be useful for ageing females as a form of natural hormone replacement therapy.

Eggs, well, the damned chickens lay them every day or two, regardless of whether you eat them or not. They aren't fertilised, they are natural, there is no ethical reason not to eat them.

Meat, sure, make your decision, but plant food can't be grown on marginal land, whereas animals can graze that land. Grazing animals on marginal land increases the total food production.

Fish, sure we're currently over-fishing the ocean, but that doesn't make it unethical, just stupid.

The eating of animals, you're on firmer ground trying to raise an ethical argument there, but eating meat does not necessarily make you a bad person.

Let's remember in all this that 'lifestyle' diets are the privilege of the wealthy westerner, not an option for those struggling to get enough food on a given day.

Dairy, yeah, this one really gets me. The arguments proffered are, dependent on your perspective and given mood, somewhere between pathetic and mind-bendingly stupid. Humans can't drink cows' milk because it was made for cows!!! Is that it? Most of those cows wouldn't exist if we weren't drinking their milk, so does that make vegans cow-hating psychopaths? Hard argument to muster.

Some humans don't have the gene that processes milk and milk products properly, a very small percentage of the human race however. Aside from that, milk is a wonderfully nutritious food, also low fat (4% - full fat milk). Mucus and pus-filled? Oh gawd, the plants you are eating are covered in fungi, bacteria and viruses of all descriptions. Mucus and pus-filled milk? Only if they have mastitis and they can't use that milk for human food during that time. Perhaps a few mL per 100 litres gets through, but whatever amount if any, it is not mucus and pus-filled.

And the real kicker, that it's cruel to take milk from their young. That just takes the cake. Cows, like humans, will continue to produce milk for a long time after the human child, or calf, will need it. There is a point where the calves no longer need it, but if it is still being taken from them they will still produce it. But what about all those poor bleating calves, missing their mother's love??? Well, it's the most unthinking anthropomorphism, and even human babies cry, does that mean all mothers are abusing their children. It assumes about a thousand things, but mostly that they are human, and they clearly aren't. Milk production stops when it's no longer being taken from the animal(or human). Milking just extends the time, and it is an amazingly sustainable product, taking sunlight and turning that into grass and then into milk via the cows 4 stomachs and specific bacteria. It's a wonder! From then then, cheese, yoghurt et al.

Again, and I have looked at this issue for over 30 years, it's your personal choice, but the ethics of it all are so much more complex than the arguments offered for veganism. It's simplistic at best. That's the nicest thing I can say about the arguments for veganism. Peter Singer examines the complexity of the ethics so much more thoroughly.

And what cannot be argued is that humans are omnivores, and that is almost certainly the reasons we have been so successful in colonising the planet, but not like bacteria.

Best wishes on your dietary journey.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 6:48pm

Nice post Batfink.

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 6:56pm

"Piscatorial Vegetarian"......

Un fucking believable.......

Sheepdog

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 6:58pm

I'm a bovine/poultry vegetarian...

Sheepdog

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 7:01pm

Sure you can raise kids on a vegan diet, but it obviously has pitfalls and comes off way more as a lifestyle indulgence from neurotic parents rather than a healthy choice for a growing kid.

"Paediatric dietician Helen Wilcock, a member of the British Dietetic Association, says she tries not to be judgmental about the rights and wrongs of vegan diets for young children, but any parent wanting to raise their child as a vegan needs to be very well-informed. "Vegan children can be deficient in vitamin D, calcium, iron and possibly vitamin B12, so they need supplements," she says.

Another big issue is that a vegan diet isn't very energy-dense: you have to eat a lot of it to get enough energy. But children typically don't eat a lot, so getting enough calories into them can be difficult. "I recommend adding oil to their food," Wilcock says, "because that gives them more calories."

Another difficulty is protein. "If a child eats meat and fish, it's easy to get all the right amino acids. But if a child is getting protein from pulses, the problem is that one type of bean might not provide every amino acid, so there has to be a good balance of pulses. In other words, a child who only eats chicken will get all the amino acids – but a child who only eats one type of bean won't."

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 7:07pm

Sheepdog wrote: "Piscatorial Vegetarian"......

Un fucking believable.......

I don't come up with these labels Sheepy, I just live it.

Like if someone was to label you a non drinking , but thoroughly unhappy , former baker.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 7:10pm

Can someone with any idea please describe to me why Gorillas, elephants , hippos , buffalo and giraffes get so large and powerful without animal proteins ?

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 7:36pm

"I don't come up with these labels Sheepy, I just live it"

Bahahahahahahahaha...... You grab it and run with, it's yours, buddy......
Piscatorial vegetarian........ Bhahahahahahahahahaaaaaah.......
Fuckn tears running down my face....... You made my saturday, bro.......

Sheepdog

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 7:42pm

Btw, gorillas were considered herbivores, but are now considered omnivores...... The most intelligent animals are onmivores or carnivores... Herbivores are the least intelligent ..

Sheepdog

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 7:45pm

Yeah I already assumed I would make your Saturday.

A Saturday spent gurning and fretting over the perilous future of Australia whilst the rest of us are getting barrelled , pissed and sucked off doesn't take much making though does it ?

PS Those tears ? I'm happy for you that you're convinced they're from good humour .

Enjoy the rest of your day cobber.

PS How would you label your diet ?

Sadcuntarian with Xtra scallops ?

mk1's picture
mk1's picture
mk1 commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 7:47pm

Blowin wrote: Can someone with any idea please describe to me why Gorillas, elephants , hippos , buffalo and giraffes get so large and powerful without animal proteins ?

Bugs Blowin they eat a LOT of bugs.

Actually I think hormones and the animal's DNA dictate how the nutrients are used or stored. Also they eat constantly so their intake is huge, imagine focusing 90% of your day on just putting more food in your mouth, even if it is just lettuce. That's my guess!

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 7:58pm

Blowin wrote: Yeah I already assumed I would make your Saturday.

A Saturday spent gurning and fretting over the perilous future of Australia whilst the rest of us are getting barrelled , pissed and sucked off doesn't take much making though does it ?

PS Those tears ? I'm happy for you that you're convinced they're from good humour .

Enjoy the rest of your day cobber.

PS How would you label your diet ?

Sadcuntarian with Xtra scallops ?

Oh no... I'd label myself as a cunt....

Anyhow, just google searched "piscatorial vegetarian", seeings you reckon it's an existing label....

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHWA_enAU...

Nothing.... Nadda..... Zilch.....
Rather be a cunt than full of shit mate ;)

ps - actually, there are 2 references, one of which is yours..... Really popular label bro.... lol

Sheepdog

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 7:55pm

'Can sumwun wiv eny idear pleese dezcrybe two meeee wheye Gurillers, ellafants , hippows , bufferlowz and jirrarfs gett sew larj an' powrfool wivouwt aminal prowteens ?'

Its very basic. Because their digestive system is designed to extract protein, energy and nutrients from huge amounts of plant sources.

'Fanks 'eaps mmmaaaaayyytee... bra... nouw culdya tewll arze 'ow cum a fisch cun breave warta n stuff... aaayyeee!!!'

Idiot. Swillnut.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 8:06pm

Sheepdog wrote:
Blowin wrote: Yeah I already assumed I would make your Saturday.

A Saturday spent gurning and fretting over the perilous future of Australia whilst the rest of us are getting barrelled , pissed and sucked off doesn't take much making though does it ?

PS Those tears ? I'm happy for you that you're convinced they're from good humour .

Enjoy the rest of your day cobber.

PS How would you label your diet ?

Sadcuntarian with Xtra scallops ?

Oh no... I'd label myself as a cunt....

Anyhow, just google searched "piscatorial vegetarian", seeings you reckon it's an existing label....

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHWA_enAU...

Nothing.... Nadda..... Zilch.....
Rather be a cunt than full of shit mate ;)

ps - actually, there are 2 references, one of which is yours..... Really popular label bro.... lol

Yeah who knows ? I thought it was a thing , turns out its PESCETARIAN.

Shows how much I know.

All I know is that eating fish as opposed to terrestrial meat makes me feel good.

Maybe you should figure out what makes you feel good.

And Sorry to have misinformed you and wasted your time searching on the Internet for shit when you could have been.....searching on the Internet for shit.

Maybe it's your diet making you unhappy mate ?

Surely it's worth looking into ?

You can't continue as you are ?

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 8:07pm

The bullshit talk stops here.

Hope that sounded real Clint Eastwood-like, though if it it didn't it doesn't matter 'cos the result will be the same. Anymore aggro trolling (Sheepdog) or playground level payouts (Uplift) they'll be deleted.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 8:14pm

.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 8:13pm

stunet wrote:

The bullshit talk stops here.

Hope that sounded real Clint Eastwood-like, though if it it didn't it doesn't matter 'cos the result will be the same. Anymore aggro trolling (Sheepdog) or playground level payouts (Uplift) they'll be deleted.

Fair call.

This shit is dull.

manbat's picture
manbat's picture
manbat commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 8:13pm

My guess is dung beetles have an impressive digestive system, they eat the shit of herbivores.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 8:24pm

AndyM wrote: "For those strict vegans out there, how far would you take you beliefs?….Would you still take anti venom made from a snake if you got bitten?" What about a blood transfusion?

I imagine the answer to that would involve their initial motivation for becomeing vegan. As other have said, there are many reasons for making dietary choices, but my choice to become vegan had nothing to do with animal welfare - sorry Gandhi! - and everything to do with environmental issues.

So by that rationale antivenom would present no issue.

happyasS's picture
happyasS's picture
happyasS commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 9:39pm

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 10:12pm

Stunet.... Are you for real?

Here's what I wrote....
" "Piscatorial Vegetarian"...... Un fucking believable....... I'm a bovine/poultry vegetarian..."

Obvious humour...... Thought I'd get a laugh with the bovine/poultry vegetarian........

I then wrote;
"Bahahahahahahahaha...... You grab it and run with, it's yours, buddy......
Piscatorial vegetarian........ Bhahahahahahahahahaaaaaah.......
Fuckn tears running down my face....... You made my saturday, bro......."

So seriously stunet...... Are you for fuckn real? Where were you when I or others have had the shit ripped out of us far worse than this? Munching popcorn?

If you can't tell the difference between a bit of Aussie shit stir humour and trolling, then god help us all...

Sheepdog

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 10:13pm

Am I allowed to say bullshit, if I say I retract the bullshit... after I said the bullshit...

And what if I spell bullshit properly, or is that bullshit?

And, so is the banned video up... or down? Is Joel Fitz a kook... like you(s) said and showed... or is that proper bullshit...

Does anyone know how come trees get so big without eating protein???

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Saturday, 30 Jan 2016 at 10:14pm

And, can a drone film bullshit... is that classified as bannable bullshit???