Surfing and Veganism

Stok's picture
Stok started the topic in Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 3:17pm

I think surfers, by their nature, are generally pretty in tune with the environment - more so than the general public.

We regularly get to fully immerse ourselves in the raw, unforgiving ocean, sometimes that ocean may be hours away from civilisation. We get to see sides of the ocean many don't, and all surfers feel somewhat connected to it.

Surfers are usually concerned about climate change, dwindling natural resources, excessive human population increase, exploitation of sea animals (Bali Dolphins, Seaworld etc), Tuna cages (Victor Harbor) and shark diving - hell even general littering (I've never seen a true surfer litter).

So I thought I’d put it out there – is anyone on this forum vegan? If not, have you ever considered it?

Living a vegan lifestyle is pretty much as close as you can get to being sustainable in our modern society. Aside from the health and serious and significant ethical reasons to become vegan (and there are so, so many of ethical reasons available), sustainability is a huge one. Human demand for seafood is straight out killing our oceans. Livestock is also killing them – directly through creating ‘ocean dead zones’ near farmland and indirectly through agriculture’s massive carbon footprint.

As a lifelong surfer, and only a recent vegan (6 months) I encourage you to watch this, and consider if you want to continue being a part of one of the most destructive ways of life the earth has ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLgkrQSRy9E

p.s. I became vegan only for sustainable and ethical reasons – I actually don’t think eating meat is necessarily wrong, and I do believe in the food chain and apex predators – But the way humans consume is not what I would consider part of the food chain. We’re not an apex predator – we’re a destructive bacteria.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 11:56am

Looks like science and nutrition is now pointing to the main culprit of obesity and lifestyle disease as not animal proteins but carbohydrates; particularly modified and simple ones like sugar, wheat flour, corn syrup etc etc.
So, no, the western diet is pretty fucked up but it may be that plants are at least to blame as animals for that.
Not just the amount of protein in eggs but the full suite of amino acids required for human nutrition.
No doubt walnuts are great but at the moment I can go down the back of my house and grab an egg, the nearest walnut grown to me was probably hundred of K's. Although I can get plentiful macadamias and pecans locally. Great snack food.
In fact there's a macadamia tree growing in my backyard but the nuts mostly get hit by borers. I should take better care of it and try and harvest more from it.

staitey's picture
staitey's picture
staitey commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 12:08pm

Firstly I'd think that Stok you've created a great thread to generate some good discussion with regards to this topic. The first page of posts had me quite interested and some of it is actually laugh out loud funny, so thanks for the entertainment guys.

I have to say though Stok that unfortunately for myself your posts to me come across as quite 'preechy'……..I think you mentioned you not wanting come across as this but its kind of like that mate around the workplace / backyard BBQ going, ' I'm not racist, but………..'

I've got a fairly scientific brain and occupation so I feel your argument may come across stronger if you could provide examples of proven fact and evidence rather than sweeping emotional statements regarding:
hen's periods, pus and mucus in milk, etc Although I do empathise that this is a discussion not your thesis as you stated.

I myself have dabbled with the thought of vegetarianism for a long time but I feel as though reading this forum that if I continue my low meat, balanced diet that I have I'm probably not doing too much wrong. Obviously if I could catch it all and kill it all myself that'd be more sustainable but having a family, business etc I don't have the time our forefathers had to do all this. If it were a choice between this or vegetarianism I'd just be a vego I'd say as quite frankly I don't wouldn't have the stomach or heart I don't think.

Just a question to those vegans / vegos out there? In this day and age do you always get kind of forced to justify your lifestyle choice by meat eaters you meet? As though somehow you've offended their choice to eat meat? Would be tiring if so I would imagine…..

Different kind of scenario but lately I've been not drinking (nothing special - no medal required) but wanted to have a dry few months and it seems to be always met with surprise and very little support like for some reason you've offended your mate or acquaintance's for their drinking habits…………funny story from the other night. Went to restaurant / bar and mate and I ordered a beer and I ordered a lemon lime and bitters. A (different) waitress came out with the drinks and was so confused (thought she had wrong order) as here we were 2 blokes sitting at the pub but one doesn't have an alcoholic drink???? Must be the wrong table…………..bit of a snap shot of our society I reckon.

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 12:40pm

staitey wrote: Firstly I'd think that Stok you've created a great thread to generate some good discussion with regards to this topic. The first page of posts had me quite interested and some of it is actually laugh out loud funny, so thanks for the entertainment guys.

I have to say though Stok that unfortunately for myself your posts to me come across as quite 'preechy'……..I think you mentioned you not wanting come across as this but its kind of like that mate around the workplace / backyard BBQ going, ' I'm not racist, but………..'

I've got a fairly scientific brain and occupation so I feel your argument may come across stronger if you could provide examples of proven fact and evidence rather than sweeping emotional statements regarding:
hen's periods, pus and mucus in milk, etc Although I do empathise that this is a discussion not your thesis as you stated.

I myself have dabbled with the thought of vegetarianism for a long time but I feel as though reading this forum that if I continue my low meat, balanced diet that I have I'm probably not doing too much wrong. Obviously if I could catch it all and kill it all myself that'd be more sustainable but having a family, business etc I don't have the time our forefathers had to do all this. If it were a choice between this or vegetarianism I'd just be a vego I'd say as quite frankly I don't wouldn't have the stomach or heart I don't think.

Just a question to those vegans / vegos out there? In this day and age do you always get kind of forced to justify your lifestyle choice by meat eaters you meet? As though somehow you've offended their choice to eat meat? Would be tiring if so I would imagine…..

Different kind of scenario but lately I've been not drinking (nothing special - no medal required) but wanted to have a dry few months and it seems to be always met with surprise and very little support like for some reason you've offended your mate or acquaintance's for their drinking habits…………funny story from the other night. Went to restaurant / bar and mate and I ordered a beer and I ordered a lemon lime and bitters. A (different) waitress came out with the drinks and was so confused (thought she had wrong order) as here we were 2 blokes sitting at the pub but one doesn't have an alcoholic drink???? Must be the wrong table…………..bit of a snap shot of our society I reckon.

Quality post, staitey
As Blowin continually points out whenever he can, The old sheepdog doesn't drink alcohol.... This is probably the third time i have mentioned it here in nearly 2 years.... So it seems to leave an impression... I stopped drinking not long after 9/11.... Early 2002 by memory.... Was in my early 30s and felt I was "slowing down" in the surf..... Best thing i ever did.... but gee.... A few "friends" dropped off the radar... Not as many visitors or invites on a Friday night..... Sorta showed me who the fairweather friends were.... .....Whenever we go to a party or a function, We continually have to justify not drinking..... Imagine having to justify not smoking pot or durries...... It's quite bizarre...
Staitey..... About 2 months into not drinking, you'll notice your reflexes sharpening.. You'll notice real clarity....Natural highs become a lot more intense, almost like the highs you'd get as a child doing something amazing for the first time...... And if you got a woman, you'll blow her away.... lol..... Blowing your load really becomes blowing your load.... Your brain nearly explodes bahahahaha.... All senses heightened.... So much better than a drunken half remembered slur fest....

Sheepdog

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 1:19pm

To answer your question freeride, eggs are deluxe. Intially the BV value of protein in foods was a comparison against eggs. Its not the highest, but very high, especially when cooked. That topic is a shit fight these days, mainly due to marketing. But that's just one favourable aspect of eggs. The vitamin B content is also deluxe, as are the type of fats. You need to appreciate, understand the overlooked power of and role of those simple B vitamins. Water soluble, so what... The most important fats need certain elements to render them most usefull, a problem with the same type of fats from nuts and seeds, and a reason fish oil is also so popular. Extremely important nutrients like choline, biotin, lecithin are in high quantities. The yolks are a rich source of these nutrients, plus important antioxidants, ie, lutein and zeaxanthin. One crucial vitamin which eggs are lacking in is C. It can be easily addressed by eating capsicum etc with eggs, but the best is to have some pineapple, or papaya after, which have enzymes that help further digest protein. Or take a time release C. This is the best value. Even with the shit exchange rate. For most supplements too. Shipping rate/speed are deluxe.

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-C-1000-250-Tablets/466

Comparing eggs to walnuts is like comparing diamonds to plastic. Walnuts are incomplete for a start. Eggs are so easily, and completely used by humans. Simplistically its like this. Eggs = put a dollar in, get a dollar fifty out. Walnuts = put a dollar in, get two cents back. Plus, clear the decks. We are taking everything out to grow the fuckers. Rancid? Naaaaaahhh... its organic... mmmaaaaayyyytttee. You need to understand recovery. How to thrive, not grovel. Anabolic/catabolic. How to tip the daily balance in your favour a little bit.

You re right freeride, sugar, shit carbs, plus too many, and shit fats also are the huge problem. Jamie Oliver lives to eat. feed us Jamie... we are starvin' mmmaaayyyttee!!!

We don't have to make getting eggs so savage. Just like getting milk. Its just profit at all cost that is the problem.

You need to do much research, and trialing, or the blabbering is useless. Its another topic where experience is key to forming valid opinions.

Claiming marketing doesn't affect vegans is comical. We gotta sell corn. Just like we off loaded the spinach glut. The full story of that has been muffled well. Popeye. The war... the glut... flog it... Popeye, the timing, the sentiment, they'll believe anything.

I have to train people. Again.

Stok's picture
Stok's picture
Stok commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 2:24pm

Uplift - nail on the head there mate - marketing makes the whole thing a shit fight, like seriously a shit fight. I mean, who's got the time and money to really do a impartial comparison?

I don't claim marketing doesn't affect vegans, but I can quite firmly claim that meat is heavily marketed. 'Get some Pork on Your Fork' and 'You're better on beef' are a couple of recent ones. Then there's the whole Sam Kekovich embarassment about lamb and Australianism. That sort of marketing is not available to veganism.

I do think that generally meat and dairy are much stronger financially than any vegan groups (not that there really is any), so would have a lot more money spared to fund research papers.

Staitey - it's ruthless to be honest haha! Gives you a feel of what it's like being in a minority group. Haven't lost any friends because of it, but have had to justify it several times. I don't openly discuss it due to the very negative stereotypes associated with it, and I definitely don't announce it. But as soon as I choose some food without meat, it's like the spotlight's on me and a microphone is shoved in my face and people ask what's wrong with me - then I might mention 'well, I'm trying to follow a vegan diet'....after I say this - well that's when the jokes start - 'hahah how do you recognise a vegan, don't worry, they'll tell you HAHAHAHA'. It's quite funny actually. Could imagine quitting alcohol would be similar (not on that yet, maybe one day).

It's funny too, because the 'preachy' thing and 'religion' thing has been brought up a bit - well it's not a religion at all. I've been preached to several times about how much meat I should eat, or that milk is good for bones or whatever. The reality is, people feel annoyed by individuals who challenge the norm - and often feel that they are preaching.

staitey's picture
staitey's picture
staitey commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 2:29pm

Sheepdog wrote: Quality post, staitey
As Blowin continually points out whenever he can, The old sheepdog doesn't drink alcohol.... This is probably the third time i have mentioned it here in nearly 2 years.... So it seems to leave an impression... I stopped drinking not long after 9/11.... Early 2002 by memory.... Was in my early 30s and felt I was "slowing down" in the surf..... Best thing i ever did.... but gee.... A few "friends" dropped off the radar... Not as many visitors or invites on a Friday night..... Sorta showed me who the fairweather friends were.... .....Whenever we go to a party or a function, We continually have to justify not drinking..... Imagine having to justify not smoking pot or durries...... It's quite bizarre...
Staitey..... About 2 months into not drinking, you'll notice your reflexes sharpening.. You'll notice real clarity....Natural highs become a lot more intense, almost like the highs you'd get as a child doing something amazing for the first time...... And if you got a woman, you'll blow her away.... lol..... Blowing your load really becomes blowing your load.... Your brain nearly explodes bahahahaha.... All senses heightened.... So much better than a drunken half remembered slur fest....

hahahaha sounds like some good things to look forward to. Main reasons I've had a rest is health. I'm hardly a big drinker these days anyway compared to my 20s but I've found for days after a few beers / wines etc on the weekend I'm not as sharp as usual. I also don't really like the feeling of being pissed anymore either. The final and main reason is life is so busy and I now have little kids I don't really want to be wasting it being hungover.

Its tricky though, we've all grown up drinking (in Australia) with our mates and for every dinner out, birthday, holiday, friday arvo that's what we do. I enjoy it, its (mostly) a social experience and its a bit of a de-stress. So I think when all your peers do that it can be tricky to swim against the stream. However I'm finding the less I do drink the more content I am not doing so

staitey's picture
staitey's picture
staitey commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 2:32pm

Stok wrote:
Staitey - it's ruthless to be honest haha! Gives you a feel of what it's like being in a minority group. Haven't lost any friends because of it, but have had to justify it several times. I don't openly discuss it due to the very negative stereotypes associated with it, and I definitely don't announce it. But as soon as I choose some food without meat, it's like the spotlight's on me and a microphone is shoved in my face and people ask what's wrong with me - then I might mention 'well, I'm trying to follow a vegan diet'....after I say this - well that's when the jokes start - 'hahah how do you recognise a vegan, don't worry, they'll tell you HAHAHAHA'. It's quite funny actually. Could imagine quitting alcohol would be similar (not on that yet, maybe one day).

It's funny too, because the 'preachy' thing and 'religion' thing has been brought up a bit - well it's not a religion at all. I've been preached to several times about how much meat I should eat, or that milk is good for bones or whatever. The reality is, people feel annoyed by individuals who challenge the norm - and often feel that they are preaching.

fair enough, good quality debate. This will be one where there isn't anyway one group can be right or wrong

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 2:34pm

I've been experimenting with sobriety...taking a month off here and there. Currently a week into a month break and feeling that sharpness.....to me that kicks in about a week after stopping.
I did a state of origin last year while sober and that tripped my mates out but I dunno, people get used to it. It's definitely not the norm in Aus society.

A good mate of mine just died so I'm deffo going to have a couple at his wake.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 2:39pm

A little something else ....

I was never aware until I began forensically inspecting my diet, but for myself there is an old saying that rings true - Nuts make you nuts.

Too many - which actually isn't that many - nuts make my emotions , moods and my thought process' s very compromised .

Sound strange ?

Yeah, I wouldn't have credited it either till I tried a bit of trial and error.

I was otherwise focusing on nuts as a source of protein.

PS. You're right about giving up the meat, a lot of people view it as some kind of self denying martyrdom.

It's not as though I'm giving up drinking which is basically another way of saying that my mouth feels like an empty void until there is a penis in it.

Yes, Sheepy, that is a joke.

I too don't drink for extended periods and people try to shame me for that.

PS- And please don't take offence if you DO enjoy having a cock in your mouth.

This discussion is about the empowerment of personal choice after all.

SurferFuk's picture
SurferFuk's picture
SurferFuk commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 3:15pm

Sheepdog wrote:
Quality post, staitey
As Blowin continually points out whenever he can, The old sheepdog doesn't drink alcohol.... This is probably the third time i have mentioned it here in nearly 2 years.... So it seems to leave an impression... I stopped drinking not long after 9/11.... Early 2002 by memory.... Was in my early 30s and felt I was "slowing down" in the surf..... Best thing i ever did.... but gee.... A few "friends" dropped off the radar... Not as many visitors or invites on a Friday night..... Sorta showed me who the fairweather friends were.... .....Whenever we go to a party or a function, We continually have to justify not drinking..... Imagine having to justify not smoking pot or durries...... It's quite bizarre...
Staitey..... About 2 months into not drinking, you'll notice your reflexes sharpening.. You'll notice real clarity....Natural highs become a lot more intense, almost like the highs you'd get as a child doing something amazing for the first time...... And if you got a woman, you'll blow her away.... lol..... Blowing your load really becomes blowing your load.... Your brain nearly explodes bahahahaha.... All senses heightened.... So much better than a drunken half remembered slur fest....

ARE YOU FOR REAL MATE?

You're the first here to nominate someone on swellnet for their drinking?

You're just like a Vegan champ, preach ya shit and try to feel good about yourself, by bagging out others on the head!

FFS get a life ya sook.

Surfers have their mind buried in the sand;)

benski's picture
benski's picture
benski commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 3:34pm

Funny you lot get shamed about not drinking. I didn't touch a drop for 10 years and most people said they wished they could "not drink" as well. Maybe they were just blowing smoke but it was very rare I got hassled about it by mates or strangers. No good about your mate freeride. A good time to raise a glass.

Blowin, can you elaborate on the nut thing? I snack on almonds a fair bit (maybe 20 a day) but not sure I've noticed any effect of em. Be curious to suss it out a bit though.

happyasS's picture
happyasS's picture
happyasS commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 3:51pm

the whole omega 6 versus omega 3 ratio thing was popular a while back with the scientific community, i think the basic premise hasnt yet been debunked but i havent really followed it much. whats interesting is that if you have a look at these ratio figures in foods it becomes apparent that the suggested "correct" ratios are very difficult if not impossible to achieve unless you eat fish being nearly all omega 3 and next to no omega 6. i dont necessarily buy into these scientific studies but it was interesting to see that those countries with the most healthy diets (jan, asian, mediteranian) did include regular to lots of fish in their diets. true or not, it does make me wonder about how healthy the vegan diet is.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 4:26pm

Ive got to a agree on the not drinking thing, i use to drink a lot binge and social but for the last ten years I've rarely drank at all, I maybe get drunk two or three times a year if i go to a party or see a band and just have a few beers less than twenty times a year, sometimes i go weeks even months without a drink and i do feel so much better body and mind.

Ive been quite self conscious about what I'm eating this week, and gee it must be hard to be vegan, there i so many things i eat and really enjoy that i couldn't if i was a vegan not just meat but eggs, milk, cheese, yogurt, ice cream, chocolate.

I think if i go into a I'm trying to save the world phase, I'm seriously just going to make sacrifices in other areas of my life rather than go vegetarian or vegan.

Maybe i am selfish but end of the day you only live once and god i love my non vegan food.

zenagain's picture
zenagain's picture
zenagain commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 4:55pm

Not wanting this thread to morph into an anti-drinking discussion but i gave up alcohol a few years ago now too. I probably drink about 2-3 beers a year max and that's after being a full-blown piss head for 25+ years. All of the above in terms of clarity and renewed vigour.

I was a vego for about 3 years, not really through choice but the house I shared with my best mate (who was raised as a vegetarian from birth) and his nouveau vego wife, I just kind of just went with the flow. We all liked to cook so would kind of see how creative we could get with vego meals. The big difference in the end was that my mate never said a word about his food choices while his wife was a vego-militant bitch and made it clear to anybody who didn't share her world view that they were probably just one rung of the ladder above the spawn of the devil. She was actually quite embarrassing to be around and just quietly the best decision he ever made was to let her go. Pulling pints in a London pub for six months and tripping in Goa for three made her an expert of all things worldly. Nutcase.

Anyway, an old hippy from Uki once told me that all food is simply just that-food. He said the important thing is to eat it with love and be thankful for it. (he also taught me an incredible waxing technique which I use to this day- lovely little sticky bumps of goodness)

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 5:06pm

benski Funny you lot get shamed about not drinking. I didn't touch a drop for 10 years and most people said they wished they could "not drink" as well. Maybe they were just blowing smoke but it was very rare I got hassle wrote: d about it by mates or strangers. No good about your mate freeride. A good time to raise a glass.

Blowin, can you elaborate on the nut thing? I snack on almonds a fair bit (maybe 20 a day) but not sure I've noticed any effect of em. Be curious to suss it out a bit though.

Waif like super models have 22 almonds a day when they're trying to get their weight down to 50kgs. Benski... be extremely carefull not to go above that figure, lest you be struck down by horrific consequences!!! Think swillnuts...

seal's picture
seal's picture
seal commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 5:14pm

I've got to add my two bobs worth to this debate with a story about a girl my son is involved with.
She is a great kid whom I love like my own but had in the past 2 years become a vegan.
Now she was a very active girl with better than average looks, a good surfer who at times could carry a little excess in weight for her frame but by no means fat.
She would do small time photo shoots etc and got a little self conscious if she didn't look perfect in a bikini or whatever, so one of her friends suggested becoming a vegan could be the answer.

Anyhow, she started her vegan diet.
At first she read a few books, surfed the internet, talked to friends about the vegan lifestyle and started to eat what they said. She lost a few kilos and looked great and we thought she was on a winner.
But she got more involved with the different people promoting vegan eating, lost more weight and started to be consumed by her new lifestyle to the point of not wanting to even eat at the same table as others eating meat.
She became so thin that we became concerned for her welfare, not only physically but mentally also and she lost the spark she once had. Her hair lost is shine, her face became sunken and her bones were sticking out everywhere.
She had no strength to paddle out on bigger days and her strong surfing became a thing of the past. We were worried.
She assured us she was eating plenty and my son agreed she ate heaps but I firmly believed she was on course for a major sickness. Sure enough it happened. What started out as a chest cold turned into pneumonia and hospitalisation with drips etc and her struggling to fight off the illness.
She has gotten better and in time, to our joy, began to add fish and eggs to her diet which I think has made a huge difference to her health.
She is still thin and very conscious of what she eats but at least she now looks healthy and has regained her spark again
The biggest benefit too is that I no longer get preached to about being an animal murderer or how can I eat that poor little lamb etc.
Fark!! that was driving me crazy!!!
So I don't know if it was just her or what, but I have heard others carry on almost as if they're part of some religious sect the way they try to push their healthy eating lifestyle onto others.

Basically my take on it all is eat a balanced diet, with as little processed foods as possible especially sugar and complex carbs. Eat lean meats,fish,eggs, fresh fruit and veggies, cut down on the piss, don't smoke and exercise as much as you can find time for and you'll live a healthy happy life.
Reward yourself occasionally with a treat and things should be ok.

mk1's picture
mk1's picture
mk1 commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 5:14pm

Food reactions (On the nuts nuts thing)- I tried eating a lot of beans a couple of years ago, bean salads etc, and noticed I got sick quite a bit: hay fever/colds, etc. Cut the beans and it stopped straight away.

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 5:20pm

SurferFuk wrote:
Sheepdog wrote:
Quality post, staitey
As Blowin continually points out whenever he can, The old sheepdog doesn't drink alcohol.... This is probably the third time i have mentioned it here in nearly 2 years.... So it seems to leave an impression... I stopped drinking not long after 9/11.... Early 2002 by memory.... Was in my early 30s and felt I was "slowing down" in the surf..... Best thing i ever did.... but gee.... A few "friends" dropped off the radar... Not as many visitors or invites on a Friday night..... Sorta showed me who the fairweather friends were.... .....Whenever we go to a party or a function, We continually have to justify not drinking..... Imagine having to justify not smoking pot or durries...... It's quite bizarre...
Staitey..... About 2 months into not drinking, you'll notice your reflexes sharpening.. You'll notice real clarity....Natural highs become a lot more intense, almost like the highs you'd get as a child doing something amazing for the first time...... And if you got a woman, you'll blow her away.... lol..... Blowing your load really becomes blowing your load.... Your brain nearly explodes bahahahaha.... All senses heightened.... So much better than a drunken half remembered slur fest....

ARE YOU FOR REAL MATE?

You're the first here to nominate someone on swellnet for their drinking?

You're just like a Vegan champ, preach ya shit and try to feel good about yourself, by bagging out others on the head!

FFS get a life ya sook.

The butt hurt is strong in this one.....

Sheepdog

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 5:20pm

Uplift , just curious on what an average days tucker for you consists of - brekkie thru to a late night snack ?

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 5:24pm

Blowin writes "PS- And please don't take offence if you DO enjoy having a cock in your mouth."

Well I practiced yoga for years but still couldn't get the flexibility.... What's it like? Do you spit or swallow?
Ohh that's right.... Fish only..... I'll buy you a box of tissues.....

Sheepdog

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 5:29pm

'That sort of marketing is not available to veganism.'

Even though all the champs use vitabrits, and the mighty flakes or bubbles. Bread? Wheat? Barley? Canola? Beer? All food is marketed to the hilt. Australia is bursting at the seems with food and grog and soft drinks, but, its no where near enough...let them truckers roll... the marketers rub their greasy mitts in glee, as the helpless addicts clamor and beg for more. Driven by reams and reams and reams of fantastic scientific studies, there's always one to suit the market. There's one born every minute is long gone, now its every second, soon... the sky's the limit.

Ask someone what cholesterol is, what it does, insulin, DHA, EPA, what's a hormone, glucogen... pull up a chair, sit back and relax, let the show begin, its hilarious. As they cringe in terror, terrified of... fuck knows!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfEMrjPYx7c

mk1's picture
mk1's picture
mk1 commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 5:45pm

Seal, obsessive food/diet fixation, particularly one of "food rules" is a low form of mental illness in my opinion.

benski's picture
benski's picture
benski commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 5:51pm

bloody alcohol crusaders. Worse than vegans. I like a beer these days and with my dodgy knee keeping me hobbling around, I've never been fatter so get that into youse.

Where's my pork chop?

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 6:14pm

udo wrote: Uplift , just curious on what an average days tucker for you consists of - brekkie thru to a late night snack ?

For me food is just petrol, so depends on what I will do or have done. But as soon as I get up I have a heaped teaspoon of creatine dissolved in hot water, then add cold, dissolve shilijat in it. Then 2 KSM-66 Ashwgandha extract, 8mg astaxanthin, 600mg butea superba extract, 2ml of pine pollen tincture. At the same time I'll make a jug of whey, milk protein isolate, glutamine, pure cream, or coconut oil, berries, banana, or pineapple, or avocado. I'll drink that in 3 lots through the day, depending on work, surf, etc. That will get around 120 gms protein, plus all I feel I want to recover well nutrient wise. If I have time in the morning, rare, I will have 5 eggs, scrambled, fried, omelette, with cheese,in butter, top quality pans, with capsicum, mushroom, cucumber, brocolli, beans, whatever. Lunch same. Tea same. Depending on again, work or workouts. I have 6 grams Vitamin C (3 are time release) throughout the day. Vitamin D. Sometimes nuts with protein, or eggs, depend how much carbs, nutrients and what kind I want. I workout 3 times a week, depending on recovery. All my workouts are to full failure, with as much weight as I can move. It boils down to tons moved in a set time. Last night, around 5 tons in an hour. Increasing that increases intensity. So adaptation occurs. Its hard on the nervous system too. I have the same routine as the morning minus creatine twice more in the day. Except on workout days. ZMA before bed and workouts.

Go to the pub, get fried eggs with cheese on top and salad. They'll do it if you are nice.

If I have to, I'll get a vego pizza with a variety of cheeses.

I try to eat to not kill directly, but the eggs are always a conundrum there. So any milk product is fine. I tried it without eggs for about 5 years but na, no good. Not as strong. Strong means endurance too.I'm 60,anyone that knows me knows that's how I've eaten for 30 years or so. Before heaps of meat, fish, chicken, same thing though. That's the ultimate, but I chose the not directly killing idea.

I forgot to add, all I drink is water, pubs, parties, whatever, just water.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 6:10pm

Any Caffiene at all ?

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 6:17pm

udo wrote: Any Caffiene at all ?

See, above, I edited it on the end, all I drink is water, pubs parties whatever.

If I am flat, and have a big workout, ie deadlifts, squats, I have 400mg caffiene an hour before.

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 7:13pm

benski wrote: bloody alcohol crusaders. Worse than vegans. I like a beer these days and with my dodgy knee keeping me hobbling around, I've never been fatter so get that into youse.

Where's my pork chop?

Mate.... Good on ya.... Pretty sure I didn't promote not drinking as a lifestyle, or start a thread called "surfing and sobriety"..... My little spiel was in relation to being judged for NOT drinking.... And your and surferfuks posts reinforce that... But you both were just joking right... ;) if drinking makes you happy, or relieves stress, or you just like the taste, go for it, whether it be once a month, or every day... Freedom of choice I reckon..... Same deal with diet.... If humans want ignore their omnivorous teeth and eat like a herbivore, if that makes them feel happy, great!!
Chicken and salad tonight..... Yum..... (local free range organic too, cost a lot more, but that makes ME feel happy).....

Sheepdog

talkingturkey's picture
talkingturkey's picture
talkingturkey commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 7:29pm

Fark, I thought never listening to Triple J ever put me on the outers in Swellnut world. But no booze?! Who the fuck are you, people?

Don't tell me Blowie and me have got THIS in common? Oh, and SurferFuk too. Though he seems to be a bit of a blow-in to be honest.

Burp. It's beer o'clock. Scotch egg for a chaser.

benski's picture
benski's picture
benski commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 7:42pm

@sheepdog "But you both were just joking right... ;)"

Well, yes. I was in fact trying to make a joke in response to zen and his crusade to derail this into an anti-alcohol lecture. It's just so typical of him.

Stok's picture
Stok's picture
Stok commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 7:42pm

Is it just me or is this thread collapsing?

Seal - I'm not disputing your anecdote, but for every vegan horror story, there's at least 5 times as many positive stories. I've heard about girls who had eating disorders, became vegan and actually put on weight back to a healthy level. Also, to name a few well known names, Venus and Serena Williams are vegan, as is Alana Blanchard...

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 7:45pm

Stok, what do you think of Uplifts solution with eggs and milk, nothing killed.

If the aim of being vegan or vegetarian is to reduce animal suffering surely thats a no brainer isn't it?

benski's picture
benski's picture
benski commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 7:46pm

Stok if it's collapsing and you're worried about it, build it back up. You haven't answered the questions I posed before on where you draw the line. You could start there :-) You said it was a response to guilt of poor animal treatment but I would genuinely be curious about how far you go and where you stop.

I think singer's argument that it's just about minimising impact is fine but how far do you choose to take it? Not having a go, just curious.

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 7:53pm

"Is it just me or is this thread collapsing?"..................

Collapsing like a bad souffle'.......

Sheepdog

Stok's picture
Stok's picture
Stok commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 7:57pm

Freeride - for sure, I reckon eggs and dairy are nasty in the large scale sense (i.e. what probably 90% of the population have access to via Coles), however if you have a couple of hens in the backyard, and know a local farmer who milks their cow by hand and ensures the calf gets plenty of milk first - then I think it's fine. Trouble is, as I mentioned, 90% of the population don't have access to this, which is where the problem starts.

Benski - where do I draw the line - well I try to buy products which are not tested on animals when possible (I say when possible because I'm poor). I still wear leather shoes but will probably avoid buying leather. I'll kill mosquitoes if they bite me or keep me up at night. I'll use antivenom. I won't kick up a fuss if I accidentally eat a product with gelatin, or eggs or whatever in it. One thing I've been thinking about recently is I've got a ments trip planned this year, and the availability of good vegan food will be an issue - so I might have to give it up for a month. I believe the line is where you draw it, for some, there is no line, for others, it's at eggs and dairy. I'm generally of the opinion that something is better than nothing. i find it hard to respect people who strongly oppose a vegan diet and do absolutely nothing to make their diet (and lifestyle) more sustainable/ethical.

goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 8:09pm

seal wrote
"Basically my take on it all is eat a balanced diet, with as little processed foods as possible especially sugar and complex carbs. Eat lean meats,fish,eggs, fresh fruit and veggies, cut down on the piss, don't smoke and exercise as much as you can find time for and you'll live a healthy happy life.
Reward yourself occasionally with a treat and things should be ok.

Mate thats perfect
My mindset exactly

SurferFuk's picture
SurferFuk's picture
SurferFuk commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 9:20pm

talkingturkey wrote: Fark, I thought never listening to Triple J ever put me on the outers in Swellnut world. But no booze?! Who the fuck are you, people?

Don't tell me Blowie and me have got THIS in common? Oh, and SurferFuk too. Though he seems to be a bit of a blow-in to be honest.

Burp. It's beer o'clock. Scotch egg for a chaser.

Nah TT, been here longer than yourself, just changed my name and I'm fuckin with surfiefuks heads.
Time will tell champ;)

Surfers have their mind buried in the sand;)

goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 8:14pm

uplift wrote:
udo wrote: Uplift , just curious on what an average days tucker for you consists of - brekkie thru to a late night snack ?

For me food is just petrol, so depends on what I will do or have done. But as soon as I get up I have a heaped teaspoon of creatine dissolved in hot water, then add cold, dissolve shilijat in it. Then 2 KSM-66 Ashwgandha extract, 8mg astaxanthin, 600mg butea superba extract, 2ml of pine pollen tincture. At the same time I'll make a jug of whey, milk protein isolate, glutamine, pure cream, or coconut oil, berries, banana, or pineapple, or avocado. I'll drink that in 3 lots through the day, depending on work, surf, etc. That will get around 120 gms protein, plus all I feel I want to recover well nutrient wise. If I have time in the morning, rare, I will have 5 eggs, scrambled, fried, omelette, with cheese,in butter, top quality pans, with capsicum, mushroom, cucumber, brocolli, beans, whatever. Lunch same. Tea same. Depending on again, work or workouts. I have 6 grams Vitamin C (3 are time release) throughout the day. Vitamin D. Sometimes nuts with protein, or eggs, depend how much carbs, nutrients and what kind I want. I workout 3 times a week, depending on recovery. All my workouts are to full failure, with as much weight as I can move. It boils down to tons moved in a set time. Last night, around 5 tons in an hour. Increasing that increases intensity. So adaptation occurs. Its hard on the nervous system too. I have the same routine as the morning minus creatine twice more in the day. Except on workout days. ZMA before bed and workouts.

Go to the pub, get fried eggs with cheese on top and salad. They'll do it if you are nice.

If I have to, I'll get a vego pizza with a variety of cheeses.

I try to eat to not kill directly, but the eggs are always a conundrum there. So any milk product is fine. I tried it without eggs for about 5 years but na, no good. Not as strong. Strong means endurance too.I'm 60,anyone that knows me knows that's how I've eaten for 30 years or so. Before heaps of meat, fish, chicken, same thing though. That's the ultimate, but I chose the not directly killing idea.

I forgot to add, all I drink is water, pubs, parties, whatever, just water.

That was actually very interesting Uplift

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 8:20pm

goofyfoot wrote: seal wrote
"Basically my take on it all is eat a balanced diet, with as little processed foods as possible especially sugar and complex carbs. Eat lean meats,fish,eggs, fresh fruit and veggies, cut down on the piss, don't smoke and exercise as much as you can find time for and you'll live a healthy happy life.
Reward yourself occasionally with a treat and things should be ok.

Mate thats perfect
My mindset exactly

Mine too….and even that is hard work.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 8:23pm

Stok wrote: Freeride - for sure, I reckon eggs and dairy are nasty in the large scale sense (i.e. what probably 90% of the population have access to via Coles), however if you have a couple of hens in the backyard, and know a local farmer who milks their cow by hand and ensures the calf gets plenty of milk first - then I think it's fine. Trouble is, as I mentioned, 90% of the population don't have access to this, which is where the problem starts.

Benski - where do I draw the line - well I try to buy products which are not tested on animals when possible (I say when possible because I'm poor). I still wear leather shoes but will probably avoid buying leather. I'll kill mosquitoes if they bite me or keep me up at night. I'll use antivenom. I won't kick up a fuss if I accidentally eat a product with gelatin, or eggs or whatever in it. One thing I've been thinking about recently is I've got a ments trip planned this year, and the availability of good vegan food will be an issue - so I might have to give it up for a month. I believe the line is where you draw it, for some, there is no line, for others, it's at eggs and dairy. I'm generally of the opinion that something is better than nothing. i find it hard to respect people who strongly oppose a vegan diet and do absolutely nothing to make their diet (and lifestyle) more sustainable/ethical.

If you say did eat eggs and dairy on a trip like that, how would your body react?

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 8:42pm

Agree with Benski Stok, you haven't come up with much.

Your basic premise: that veganism is the most sustainable lifestyle available was demolished in the first post. Veganism is drowning in fossil fuels, eating locally where possible from polyface farms is far more sustainable.

Your ethical argument, presumingly to reduce suffering in animals? Is far more interesting but you haven't really made much of a case there either. You're on firmer ground than the sustainability argument but it's still very contested territory. As far as using or eating animal products that cause no suffering to the animal like eggs and milk you've come up with some hyper-emotive polywaffle about pus mucus and periods that was about as convincing as a teenage girls instagram account.

Thats actually the only argument that holds water as far as veganism goes: a kind of emotional reaction to the stark reality that the human being is an animal and that existence involves some "yucky" things.
I don't think that is neccessarily bad: I see it as just an extension of our cultural evolution away from nature and towards a more technological mediated existence.
Soon, as humans evolve into a more trans human state we won't have to deal with the icky reality of food at all.

The other , more general philosophical argument against veganism is that it draws an arbitrary line about reducing suffering to animals, and mostly certain animals about whose subjective state we can really have no idea about. According to Peter Singer it's only animals that feel pleasure or experience suffering that can be said to have interests about which we should be concerned about and thus engage our moral concern. Surely this is nothing but an arbitrary category? How can we know that mosquitoes don't have interests which should concern us? Or bacteria, or fungi or plants?

Most indigenous people accorded every element in the region surrounding them interests/spirit/consciousness of a kind. Whose to say the Earth itself, or a forest cleared for soy production isn't as deserving of our moral concern as a single cow or chicken?
PLants themselves are almost completely sneeringly disregarded by veganism as having no right to existence, despite them having a very clear interest in preserving themselves to reproduce etc etc. We now know that plants can communicate with each other, can respond to their environment in a variety of incredibly subtle and intelligent ways. Clearly consciousness, in the very broad sense of being aware of the environment is a spectrum, not a sharply defined category that begins at vertebrate mammals or birds or fish. Consciousness may be merely an inevitable result of matter, as the philosopher John Gray has recently asserted, and hence the indigenous peoples of Australia who sense and celebrate the spiritual force of the landscape may be far more scientifically accurate than we have heretofore thought.

Edit: just saw your post above about eggs and milk. Fair enough, but free range eggs and organic milk is freely available now.

zenagain's picture
zenagain's picture
zenagain commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 9:07pm

I'm enjoying your posts FR, balanced and lucid without being condescending and in a forum such as this it could quite easily go the other way. As are the other contributors, Bravo chaps.

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 9:17pm

Yeah I agree FR post on this subject are very well balanced and well put.

To be fair though free range eggs doesn't mean too much it just means they are not in cage but the chicken are still in a big hen house packed to the rafters, not exactly what we picture when we think free range.

yorkessurfer's picture
yorkessurfer's picture
yorkessurfer commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 9:22pm

Agree with freeride you can't get more sustainable than locally caught seafood if you live somewhere that you can source such food. I had a big family Xmas this year and laid out a spread of local catch. Blue Fin Tuna, Crayfish, Abalone, Spencer Gulf Prawns, King George Whiting, Calamari and Flake all caught in local waters.
The family loved it and I didn't have to transport it hundreds of kilometres from Coles or whatever. Doesn't get much better than that! Do you know where all your food comes from Stok?

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 9:22pm

I've seen dairies in South India where the cattle are treated like Gods, and the milk, yoghurt, cream, cheeses, butter, ghee etc are awesome. Ive seen goats treated in the same way, even here in Australia. Same thing with eggs, when I first went to Indonesia years ago chickens and eggs were everywhere. The ultimate free range. Its still the same in some other remote Asian regions. That's a goal that could be easily attained if not for the overruling capitalistic drive for profit and production above all else.

Some Nunga Lecturers I studied under thought it was ridiculous, the ultimate stupidity, totally misunderstanding of life and nature, to exterminate rabbits, and completely waste them disrespectfully, to try to profit by 'growing' 'food'.

Sounds like you have a good set up freeride.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 9:35pm

freeride76 wrote: Agree with Benski Stok, you haven't come up with much.

Your basic premise: that veganism is the most sustainable lifestyle available was demolished in the first post. Veganism is drowning in fossil fuels, eating locally where possible from polyface farms is far more sustainable.

Your ethical argument, presumingly to reduce suffering in animals? Is far more interesting but you haven't really made much of a case there either. You're on firmer ground than the sustainability argument but it's still very contested territory. As far as using or eating animal products that cause no suffering to the animal like eggs and milk you've come up with some hyper-emotive polywaffle about pus mucus and periods that was about as convincing as a teenage girls instagram account.

Thats actually the only argument that holds water as far as veganism goes: a kind of emotional reaction to the stark reality that the human being is an animal and that existence involves some "yucky" things.
I don't think that is neccessarily bad: I see it as just an extension of our cultural evolution away from nature and towards a more technological mediated existence.
Soon, as humans evolve into a more trans human state we won't have to deal with the icky reality of food at all.

The other , more general philosophical argument against veganism is that it draws an arbitrary line about reducing suffering to animals, and mostly certain animals about whose subjective state we can really have no idea about. According to Peter Singer it's only animals that feel pleasure or experience suffering that can be said to have interests about which we should be concerned about and thus engage our moral concern. Surely this is nothing but an arbitrary category? How can we know that mosquitoes don't have interests which should concern us? Or bacteria, or fungi or plants?

Most indigenous people accorded every element in the region surrounding them interests/spirit/consciousness of a kind. Whose to say the Earth itself, or a forest cleared for soy production isn't as deserving of our moral concern as a single cow or chicken?
PLants themselves are almost completely sneeringly disregarded by veganism as having no right to existence, despite them having a very clear interest in preserving themselves to reproduce etc etc. We now know that plants can communicate with each other, can respond to their environment in a variety of incredibly subtle and intelligent ways. Clearly consciousness, in the very broad sense of being aware of the environment is a spectrum, not a sharply defined category that begins at vertebrate mammals or birds or fish. Consciousness may be merely an inevitable result of matter, as the philosopher John Gray has recently asserted, and hence the indigenous peoples of Australia who sense and celebrate the spiritual force of the landscape may be far more scientifically accurate than we have heretofore thought.

Edit: just saw your post above about eggs and milk. Fair enough, but free range eggs and organic milk is freely available now.

Nice work Freeride

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 9:39pm

You still see the free range chickens in some places in Indo, also free range pigs that have pretty much a dream pig life until the big day, you also see a lot of pigs in stalls with not enough room to move though.

Nice Yorkessurfer, You can't beat fresh self caught seafood ten times more tasty the the tuff they try to sell in shops….and I'm very jealous of the size of those King george whiting you guys get.

chook's picture
chook's picture
chook commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 9:40pm

freeride76 wrote: Agree with Benski Stok, you haven't come up with much.

Your ethical argument, presumingly to reduce suffering in animals? Is far more interesting but you haven't really made much of a case there either. You're on firmer ground than the sustainability argument but it's still very contested territory. As far as using or eating animal products that cause no suffering to the animal like eggs and milk you've come up with some hyper-emotive polywaffle about pus mucus and periods that was about as convincing as a teenage girls instagram account.

Thats actually the only argument that holds water as far as veganism goes: a kind of emotional reaction to the stark reality that the human being is an animal and that existence involves some "yucky" things.
I don't think that is neccessarily bad: I see it as just an extension of our cultural evolution away from nature and towards a more technological mediated existence.
Soon, as humans evolve into a more trans human state we won't have to deal with the icky reality of food at all.

The other , more general philosophical argument against veganism is that it draws an arbitrary line about reducing suffering to animals, and mostly certain animals about whose subjective state we can really have no idea about. According to Peter Singer it's only animals that feel pleasure or experience suffering that can be said to have interests about which we should be concerned about and thus engage our moral concern. Surely this is nothing but an arbitrary category? How can we know that mosquitoes don't have interests which should concern us? Or bacteria, or fungi or plants?

let's accept your suggestion that everything may be conscious. so a plant may well have some degree of consciousness, and so it morally wrong to some degree to eat a plant. however, that in no way makes it morally the same as eating a sheep. not everthing is conscious to the same level and in the same way. we should be concerned about plants, fungi and mosquitoes, but not to the same degree that we should be concerned with cows sheep etc.

the arbitrary distinction that you see between consciousness and non-consciousness doesn't lead to the conclusion you draw...that all things are conscious (or that there is no distinction between conscious and non-conscious)..the line between baldness and being hirsute is also vague and may be seen as arbitrary. but that doesn't mean no one is bald or hirsute.

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 10:04pm

Tens of thousands of years of eating animals, first hunting, then farming, has allowed the human brain to grow, to the point where we can feel guilt and philosophize about not eating animals.... Irony.....

Sheepdog

Stok's picture
Stok's picture
Stok commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 10:10pm

Freeride, I admire a lot of your responses and enjoy your contribution to the discussion so far.

But, I think you're greatly over simplifiying things. Veganism is drowning in fossil fuels? Whilst there is undoubtedly associated emissions with veganism, it would be insignificant as compared to omnivorism. As I mentioned before, your lifestyle is very sustainable - well done for making it work - but this isn't a discussion about how you personally live, this is a discussion about how the world is working on a meat eating diet. Consuming locally and having your own veggie patch may be great for the let's say 1 million people who live outside of captial cities in Australia - but what about the 20 Million odd who live in Shanghai in China? You can't dismiss veganism on the basis that you live in frankly a privileged and lucky situation.

The reality is that in most cases around the globe, livestock would be fed crops. Crops grown entirely to feed livestock. Yes in some areas of the globe - in marginal lands - it's better for livestock to graze and be used as food from a sustainability perspective - but I'm sure these scenarios are minorities.

The same goes for the egg and dairy points - yes it can be ethical in some scenarios - maybe, say 10% of all worldwide dairy. Again, the majority would be factory farmed. Also, again, you need to grow expanses of crops to feed these animals.

The period and mucus part is not actually actually emotive. I'm not sitting here thinking ew, that's gross. It's actually a comment on what society may see as acceptable or not. I mean, if Pura Milk were to state 'may contain mucus, pus or other bodily secretions', it may not go down to well. Again, personally I think some people don't care (I used to be one of them, I've eaten some pretty strange stuff).

You've raised a better point with drawing of a line. Is it unethical to draw a line - decide who you think is worth saving and who is not worth saving? Is that more ethical than doing nothing at all? Good questions really.

Generally the plant thing is a bit wrong though. We're talking things with central nervous systems here, things which have emotions such as fear or comfort - plants don't have these, animals do. this is where the line comes into it. But really, I firmly believe doing something, or doing what you can, is much better than nothing

Stok's picture
Stok's picture
Stok commented Monday, 1 Feb 2016 at 10:13pm

Sheepdog wrote: Tens of thousands of years of eating animals, first hunting, then farming, has allowed the human brain to grow, to the point where we can feel guilt and philosophize about not eating animals.... Irony.....

This was raised before Sheepdog, and is true. It's ironic.

There's not doubt about it, as we progress as a society and become more developed we have become more compassionate, and animal suffering for human nutrition, enjoyment, health or fashion, I think is soon to be a thing of the past.