Surfing and Veganism

Stok's picture
Stok started the topic in Friday, 29 Jan 2016 at 3:17pm

I think surfers, by their nature, are generally pretty in tune with the environment - more so than the general public.

We regularly get to fully immerse ourselves in the raw, unforgiving ocean, sometimes that ocean may be hours away from civilisation. We get to see sides of the ocean many don't, and all surfers feel somewhat connected to it.

Surfers are usually concerned about climate change, dwindling natural resources, excessive human population increase, exploitation of sea animals (Bali Dolphins, Seaworld etc), Tuna cages (Victor Harbor) and shark diving - hell even general littering (I've never seen a true surfer litter).

So I thought I’d put it out there – is anyone on this forum vegan? If not, have you ever considered it?

Living a vegan lifestyle is pretty much as close as you can get to being sustainable in our modern society. Aside from the health and serious and significant ethical reasons to become vegan (and there are so, so many of ethical reasons available), sustainability is a huge one. Human demand for seafood is straight out killing our oceans. Livestock is also killing them – directly through creating ‘ocean dead zones’ near farmland and indirectly through agriculture’s massive carbon footprint.

As a lifelong surfer, and only a recent vegan (6 months) I encourage you to watch this, and consider if you want to continue being a part of one of the most destructive ways of life the earth has ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLgkrQSRy9E

p.s. I became vegan only for sustainable and ethical reasons – I actually don’t think eating meat is necessarily wrong, and I do believe in the food chain and apex predators – But the way humans consume is not what I would consider part of the food chain. We’re not an apex predator – we’re a destructive bacteria.

SurferFuk's picture
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SurferFuk commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 5:09pm

Stok wrote:
SurferFuk wrote: Woooweee Stokyie

Don t tak dem tings call ed Anti Bio otacs then,

Parently tha meaan "Life Kiling"

Haha...well it seems I made the mistake assuming it was an honest 'queztion' in the first place, and responded to you, don't worry I won't be making that mistake again.

Queeze me it was honhest Stokyie.
Just sayang.
Just like Stefphan Hawk kings.

Surfers have their mind buried in the sand;)

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 5:11pm

hi freeride

apologies, my explanation was loose. i had meant for you to compare both the dying animal and the dying plant on the side of the road....which one you would stop for? neither of us nor stok would pull over out of our car to assist a dying plant which was my analogy. so the three of us somehow value the animal life more than that of a plant in this example. But the real question is "what is the basis of the 'extra value' that so caused us to stop for the animal but not the plant"? if we suggest that all categories of belief are arbitrary as you suggest then why does everyone behave the same way and stop for the animal? i dont think that peter singers observation about suffering is arbitrary, but rather something that humans have an intrinsic understanding of and deem as important. i just think that some people just extend their compassionate concerns further than others.

for me (im not vegan nor vego), the "suffering" argument is the only one that makes any sense because of my above thoughts. im not fussed about the environmental argument because humans are smart enough to come up with better ways of doing things and still eat meat at the same time (your polyfarm is a prime example of how thing can work without large environmental impact). to avoid eating something that has made humans the very beings we are is just non-sense in my opinion.

very interesting discussion.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 5:16pm

mk1 wrote: Stok - what about honey?

Vegans don't eat honey. Honey = Enslavement of bee's.

http://vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

SurferFuk's picture
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SurferFuk commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 5:18pm

happyas,
don't get stewart started, with u not starting a sentance wiff a kapital!

Wooowee

Surfers have their mind buried in the sand;)

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mk1 commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 5:30pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
mk1 wrote: Stok - what about honey?

Vegans don't eat honey. Honey = Enslavement of bee's.

http://vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

BrrrRRRRR Gila!!!

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 5:49pm

Stok wrote:
Sheepdog wrote:
Stok wrote: Interesting and disturbing post Sypkan.

Nigel Nosedive - true it is a luxury to choose your diet, this includes being vegan and being an omnivore. A healthy omnivorous diet is just as much of a luxury of the privileged, if not more, than a vegan diet.

Ah obesity, about time someone used that word. Don't see many obese vegans or vegetarians that's for sure.

Sheepdog some very valid points about the suffering of animals and the huge amount by catch associated with seafood.

I watched deckhands club a dolphin to a pulp... Same with turtles.... Coz they were upset that they got caught in the nets..... I was only young.....Never forget it...... Pulled up drowned turtles, submerged after a 4 hour shot.... Shoveled thousands of dead animals off the side of the boat - down the "shit shute"...... I walked away from commercial fishing never to return.... A changed man.... Didn't eat seafood for years....


How did feel eating seafood again after that - i.e. what's your rationale now?

You obviously missed my earlier post on seafood.... I catch it myself, kill it myself... If I do buy it, I go to a local fisherman.... That was easy in Tasmania.... When we had the bakery, we got our scallops from a reputed tassie supplier...
I have recently moved to an area of Australia where cockles are plentiful... They're awesome bait, but just as good to eat..... I've got a heap of snorkeling gear, too... But I've been too flat out.... If I want a Lobster, or a feed of abalone, I'll get it myself......

Sheepdog

SurferFuk's picture
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SurferFuk commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 6:15pm

Cockzles piez now..

Surfers have their mind buried in the sand;)

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Sheepdog commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 6:46pm

SurferFuk wrote: Cockzles piez now..

Nah, ya mung bean..... Da family neeeded me... Back selln ads and swindln business owners... I'll do ya a 2 column by 8cm for your patented penis enlarger, SF.... 50 000 copies.... Upper right hand page.... People flick through the paper, and it's the right hand pages that stand out....If ya take a 1/2 page colour, i'll do ya a 1/2 page editorial..... That's a whole page advertorial for the price of a 1/2 page ad......... Think about it........ Just for you, man.......

Sheepdog

batfink's picture
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batfink commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 8:57pm

Stok wrote:
batfink wrote: I was vegetarian for 23 years.....

Huge post there Batfink - your style of writing hints that nothing I say will convince you otherwise, but trust me, no kool aid has been drunk.

It's a tough topic to talk about without getting into emotive arguments, and I didn't want to come back here to see comments that I would spend all night replying to. Sometimes it's better to just say your piece and don't come back, leave it to others. Too late, alas.

Suffice to say however that it wasn't my style of writing that gave me away. Let's at least be honest about that.

If it helps at all, my points of view have been established by having drunk all the Kool Aid that ever was, leading to eventual immunity, or something close to it.

And I repeat what I said in the first place, which is that it is your choice what you eat. My objection to veganism is only in the juvenile and emotive arguments used to support it.

The rest of your post provided sufficient examples of the arguments about which I have concerns.

batfink's picture
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batfink commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 9:20pm

benski wrote:

The amount of land and water required to produce meat is something that I find hard to accept as reasonable but the alternative seems to rely on a fair bit of soy. That's ok I figured but then read how much of the world's soy comes from Brazil, specifically the Amazon. We can't be supporting the clearing of the Amazon as some kind of sustainable alternative. [\quote]

That was the point of my post benski, not supportive of any diet in particular, just pointing out that it is so much more complex than a one-dimensional 'animal-bad' argument. The ethics of this is hugely complex, and a big part of that is because of modern production methods

benski wrote:

As for the ethics of animal production. It's pretty messed up, a lot of the ways we treat our animals, and some of the arguments batfink proffered are a bit weak I reckon (chickens produce eggs sure but the billions of chooks in cages are only living that miserable life because we put em there to take their eggs. If we don't set up that factory, they aren't there dropping periods in a cage for us). [\quote]

Not exactly what I was arguing benski, although I may have left room for you to take it that way. My point was that the vegan position has nothing to do with sustainability, that their arguments about ethics are largely unfounded (your point above highlights some of the ethical dilemmas).

Vegans are not about only eating sustainable produce, it is about not eating any animal products regardless of production methods, so I brought up a point about a backyard hen fed food scraps to demonstrate the point.

Vegans use post-facto rationalisations of sustainability and ethics to support what is a lifestyle diet. The original philosophy or veganism stems from religious concepts, but it's so much harder to sell to the sophisticated secular westerner if you say it is largely based on the philosophies of the Jain religion.

benski wrote:

The emotional statements of chicken periods and cow's milk being full of pus etc...boring and unconvincing. [\quote]

So do I.

benski wrote:

So I eat everything but try to recognise The impact it has and minimise it where possible. Telling myself that every day ag scientists are working to produce more with less. I eat meat daily though, so I ain't sustainable and don't pretend to be. I live a lucky and indulgent life in that regard.

But yeah, if you want to work in a job that helps the environment, become an ag scientist. Figure out how to produce more food with fewer external inputs. [\quote]

Yeah, but up till now it was the ag scientists that actually created these feedlot type factory farming conditions. I agree that they may provide the answers for the future however, as long as there production methods are aligned with both ethics and sustainability in mind.

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 9:42pm

i read somewhere that if americans eat only what they need to eat and no more that their emissions would reduce by 10%.....i cant remember which type of "emissions" they were talking about though ;)

SurferFuk's picture
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SurferFuk commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 9:54pm

SBS sugar right now.

Surfers have their mind buried in the sand;)

benski's picture
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benski commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 10:02pm

batfink, agree with you on all that. Cheers for the clarifications.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 10:12pm

Maybe the most informative, well balanced, thought provoking thread ever ?

Well done.

Cheers for all posts.

PS - Sheepy - I've worked Prawns, Crays, Finfish ,even dived pearls which have tastey meat !

Industrial seafood harvesting is fucked up.

Trawling would have to be the worst.

Purse seine is terrible , as is long lining though at least they don't despoil the territory while they're raping it.

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batfink commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 10:12pm

Happyass, that is a very conservative figure. Most westerners eat 20% to 50% to 100% more calories than necessary.

Fark, I'm trying to lose 3 or 4 kgs. It's farking impossible, and I'm eating about a quarter of what the average american would eat, I would estimate conservatively, and about 10% of what my 18 year old son takes in.

Bugger.

I read a really interesting article in the New Yorker some time ago about geeks who found mealtimes interfered with their gaming time, so they started to look at ingesting all the necessary ingredients through just raw materials (highly processed nutrients, not food) sort of what uplift eats for breakfast. (only slightly joking uplift, not actually having a go)

Apparently worked fine once they sorted out not to add too much sulphur to their diet. Perhaps this is the way of the future, instead of eating food.

But most would struggle with it, food is as much a sensual experience, and to many a social experience, rather than a matter of mere utility.

Stok's picture
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Stok commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 10:44pm

Batfink - sounds like that may be the future, or at least a big part of it.

The key really is education. People need to be well educated about how and where food comes from. I'm a perfect example of this, I've always lived in cities so I've always had that disconnect. We need to remove it. People either need to mindfully choose to eat animals, or choose to not eat animals - not just grow up eating animals without ever really understanding where their food comes from. This forum is actually probably a good example of people who do not have this disconnect - judging by the responses.

Maybe animals such as mussels, oysters and other similar mollusks can help bridge the gap - for me I haven't eaten any of these since I started being vegan, and have kind of avoided them on the basis that I don't need to consume them, so why consume them. But I haven't done too much research into it - is anyone aware of the common farming techniques for oysters and mussels, and the associated environmental impacts?

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 11:13pm

Keep an eye on your Vitamin B levels Stok.

zenagain's picture
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zenagain commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 11:13pm

I think the environmental impact of farming oysters, mussels and even scallops would be minimal as they are filter feeders and very sensitive to changes in the environment. I've been lead to believe that the condition of a mollusc can provide a snapshot of the overall health of the system in general. Kind of like the canary in the coalmine so to speak.

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

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Stok commented Tuesday, 2 Feb 2016 at 11:23pm

Blowin wrote: Keep an eye on your Vitamin B levels Stok.

I supplement and drink fortified soy milk, and I spoke to my doctor about this. Vitamin B issues are more related to lack of the body's ability to absorb vitamin B - as such it can occur in any person.
uplift's picture
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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 12:21am

You spoke to your doctor about nutrition? Why, are you crazy... the blind leading the blind, they have next to zero training in it. I train obese doctors, crippled doctors, frail doctors, have doctors who are friends. At least some of them admit the training they have in that area is next to useless. When I had cholesterol checks in Elliston when I was employed by the Health Commission, because the doctor and hospital CEO freaked about my eating so many eggs, cream, cheese, butter etc, I did it on the proviso that they had them too. I had levels that were in the best range, they had ludicrously bad readings. The town loved it.

'But I have home made jam on my scones... with brown sugar... and lettuce on my rice cakes...'

Oh the joy. Life in a southern town, nowhere to hide. The cocky's know everything... even the footprints out in the middle of nowhere.

A sad day when the stomach outwits the brain. Some call it 'a sensual experience', and to many a its a 'social experience'. Drug addicts will do that.

And make sure you don't order, or worse still eat breaky foods at tea time... or even worse, visa versa. You'll die, or get 20 to life at least.

Let them truckers roll!!!...???...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd5ZLJWQmss

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floyd commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 6:34am

@ Uplift,

Convoy Ernest Borgnine as Dirty Lyle .... Classic

I totally agree with your comment about most doctors knowing very very little about nutrition. Fortunately I have found one that focuses on diet and a healthy lifestyle ahead of prescription medicine.

Your diet Uplift, is it banting?

dandandan's picture
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dandandan commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 7:13am

zenagain wrote: I think the environmental impact of farming oysters, mussels and even scallops would be minimal as they are filter feeders and very sensitive to changes in the environment. I've been lead to believe that the condition of a mollusc can provide a snapshot of the overall health of the system in general. Kind of like the canary in the coalmine so to speak.

True enough. There are mussels and oysters almost everywhere down here and you'd be an idiot to eat half of them - run off from cities and farms will turn them toxic pretty damn quick. Another thing to consider, and will undoubtedly be something that is talked about more in the future, is the impact of fish farms on them. Abalone divers who dive near some of the salmon ponds are having to steer clear of them due to the algal blooms that result from the huge amounts of input and output that come from 10 000 salmon in a net. Money rules though, so expect this to take some time before it becomes mainstream knowledge.

Interesting to hear that people are talking about quantity now too. I've got mates who are in to lifting heavy stuff and are convinced if they don't eat half a cow a day they will lose their gains. Same too with the country blokes who think only women and 'poofs' eat small portions. The ethics of certain subsets of people choosing to eat obscene amounts of food for pointless personal gain might be an issue in the far off future and it's certainly something I've never encountered in any of the traditional societies I've visited. In fact almost the opposite in some places, where living on smaller portions is seen as a sign of inner strength.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 8:11am

batfink wrote: Happyass, that is a very conservative figure. Most westerners eat 20% to 50% to 100% more calories than necessary.

Fark, I'm trying to lose 3 or 4 kgs. It's farking impossible, and I'm eating about a quarter of what the average american would eat, I would estimate conservatively, and about 10% of what my 18 year old son takes in.

Bugger.

I read a really interesting article in the New Yorker some time ago about geeks who found mealtimes interfered with their gaming time, so they started to look at ingesting all the necessary ingredients through just raw materials (highly processed nutrients, not food) sort of what uplift eats for breakfast. (only slightly joking uplift, not actually having a go)

Apparently worked fine once they sorted out not to add too much sulphur to their diet. Perhaps this is the way of the future, instead of eating food.

But most would struggle with it, food is as much a sensual experience, and to many a social experience, rather than a matter of mere utility.

If there is concern for the environment from food consumption and production, the west is only a small problem, the fast emerging middle class of places like China, India and Indonesia etc is the real concern with this emerging middle class comes a much higher consumption of meat especially red meat, but its not just meat its consumption in general.

Off course the elephant in the room is unsustainable population growth, until people even start talking about this we are screwed but the governments most likely never will want to talk about it, because population growth fuels economies.

BTW. In regard to loss of forest etc in SE asia meat production is nothing compared to the loss of forest for palm oil plantations.

uplift's picture
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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 8:38am

floyd wrote: @ Uplift,

Convoy Ernest Borgnine as Dirty Lyle .... Classic

I totally agree with your comment about most doctors knowing very very little about nutrition. Fortunately I have found one that focuses on diet and a healthy lifestyle ahead of prescription medicine.

Your diet Uplift, is it banting?

The way I eat is just to stay really healthy floyd. Its just all the things I have experienced in 40 odd years of being involved in the health and fitness injury. Crumpled hormones and loss of muscle mass as our society ages is another 'epidemic' besieging it.

I have to attend 'emergency' conferences where the government blathers about how the health system is swamped, bankrupt, doomed, and the waiting lists for surgery are ever burgeoning beyond having any hope of coping. And its getting ludicrously worse by the day.

People accept as normal, as their birthright, all the shoulder, knee, back, hip, wrist, skin, heart, liver, kidney, gall bladder, (you name it, we got it) operations and procedures, due to no idea how to be fit and healthy. 'I'll just sign here doc... is that pen a legal weight limit... ya shouldsa seen the wipeout doc... fark mmmmaaaaayyyteee... give us that lighter pen... fark... shoulder's popped out, fark, back tweaked... fark... knee folded, fark... by the way doc... that little prob we wuz discussin'... have the new pills come... the other ones made me hair fall out... ya got one for that too...'

Let them truckers roll!!!...???

dandandan's picture
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dandandan commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:04am

indo-dreaming wrote:
If there is concern for the environment from food consumption and production, the west is only a small problem, the fast emerging middle class of places like China, India and Indonesia etc is the real concern with this emerging middle class comes a much higher consumption of meat especially red meat, but its not just meat its consumption in general.

Off course the elephant in the room is unsustainable population growth, until people even start talking about this we are screwed but the governments most likely never will want to talk about it, because population growth fuels economies.
.

Interesting point ID. I've always been torn with the idea of population growth. I can see it is a problem, and also a symptom of a completely munted economical system that thinks more=better. But at the same time I see the major problem not being that we have too many people, but that too many people consume too much. They eat too much food, buy too many clothes, throw too much plastic in the bin. It drives me absolutely insane that people are so disconnected from how their own actions affect us all. Take a look in the rubbish bin of just about any Australian and it's absolutely overflowing with pointlessly created garbage. Even people who are completely obsessed with their health fly food all over the world (coconuts in Tasmania - seriously?) and fill a rubbish bin to the brim each week with all the food packaging that their chosen diet entails. It's such a massive problem that everybody pretends doesn't exist.

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floyd commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:40am

uplift wrote:
floyd wrote: @ Uplift,

Convoy Ernest Borgnine as Dirty Lyle .... Classic

I totally agree with your comment about most doctors knowing very very little about nutrition. Fortunately I have found one that focuses on diet and a healthy lifestyle ahead of prescription medicine.

Your diet Uplift, is it banting?

The way I eat is just to stay really healthy floyd. Its just all the things I have experienced in 40 odd years of being involved in the health and fitness injury. Crumpled hormones and loss of muscle mass as our society ages is another 'epidemic' besieging it.

I have to attend 'emergency' conferences where the government blathers about how the health system is swamped, bankrupt, doomed, and the waiting lists for surgery are ever burgeoning beyond having any hope of coping. And its getting ludicrously worse by the day.

People accept as normal, as their birthright, all the shoulder, knee, back, hip, wrist, skin, heart, liver, kidney, gall bladder, (you name it, we got it) operations and procedures, due to no idea how to be fit and healthy. 'I'll just sign here doc... is that pen a legal weight limit... ya shouldsa seen the wipeout doc... fark mmmmaaaaayyyteee... give us that lighter pen... fark... shoulder's popped out, fark, back tweaked... fark... knee folded, fark... by the way doc... that little prob we wuz discussin'... have the new pills come... the other ones made me hair fall out... ya got one for that too...'

Let them truckers roll!!!...???

@Uplift,

Couldn't agree more with you. Sit in any shopping centre or street corner and carefully watch (and realise) just how massively over weight people have become, then go home and get out the parents photo albums and see how "thin" people were just 20 years ago compared to today ....

And the medical profession are just linked into all this, GPs refer people to specialists, specialists refer people to surgeons ..... $$$$$$$$$ ...... people want the best most expensive medical treatment in the world just so they can go on over eating/drinking while leading the most sedentary lifestyle in human history.

The best thing you can have in a doctor is a willingness for him/her to speak plainly like "floyd, you are 20kgs over weight, if you don't stop over eating and don't start exercising you will have heart disease in 5 years" ..........hahahahhaa, try to find a doctor that will speak plainly like that, they don't get that training in medical school either.

......... and how the frail elderly are treated in the last year(s) of their lives with serious/costly medical interventions to prolong life while life quality rapidly diminishes is a scandal and the medical profession, governments and religion have a lot to answer for ....

...... people need to take way more responsibility for their own good health ...... perhaps there needs to be a program called "healthy eating / healthy living" starting in primary schools coz lets face it mostly kids aren't getting that guidance from their overweight parents / families/ community .... "mum, can we get maccas for dinner?"

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:49am

If people ate the diet and did the amount of exercise recommended by the medical community, they wouldn't be overweight. Might not move 5 tonnes an hour or whatever but they surely wouldn't be unhealthy porkers.

The medical and health communities have been arguing for better eating and exercising for ages. To accuse them of complicity in people getting chunky in the 21st century is a massive abrogation of personal responsibility. It's almost ridiculous.

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zenagain commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:56am

Totally agree.

Do you honestly think the medical community are in cahoots with business and government to keep people fat so the dollars (no pun intended) keep rolling in?

Uppity may be right in that doctors lack specific training in nutrition but to say they're complicit is a long bow to draw Floydo.

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

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dandandan commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 9:57am

@benski

That's true. My housemate is a nurse and even with people who are in there for their second foot amputation due to diet related diabetes she is not allowed to force them to eat healthier food. This particular double-foot amputee has somebody bring in bags of bakery products each night because she refuses to eat the food provided by the hospital, and though the hospital staff can prescribe her meds and operate on her, they can't force her to eat and exercise. She's been on the ward for months now because she's literally too fat to take home - the ambos don't want to lift her for OH&S reasons and concerns they might not be able to get her through her door. She has to be hoisted by a mechanical lift which takes her between the bed and the toilet. When you take a step back from it and think 'is this what the developed world has come to?' it just makes you shudder.

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floyd commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:03am

benski wrote: If people ate the diet and did the amount of exercise recommended by the medical community, they wouldn't be overweight. Might not move 5 tonnes an hour or whatever but they surely wouldn't be unhealthy porkers.

The medical and health communities have been arguing for better eating and exercising for ages. To accuse them of complicity in people getting chunky in the 21st century is a massive abrogation of personal responsibility. It's almost ridiculous.

There is also truth in what you say. The (peak) medical community are active in the healthy living message but that very same medical community acknowledge that at the coalface individual GPs aren't speaking plainly to their patients about issues like smoking, drinking and over eating. Peak medical profession bodies see it as a problem and it is. GPs find it easier to write a prescription to lower cholesterol than to talking about healthy eating ....... and taking uplifts point, GPs aren't trained in nutrition so even if the doctor and patient are willing to try something different its a referral to a dietician.

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freeride76 commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:24am

No doubt the medical community is far more focussed on cure rather than prevention.

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dandandan commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:34am

freeride76 wrote: No doubt the medical community is far more focussed on cure rather than prevention.

I don't think that's by choice - it's born by funding. Preventative health in Tassie, for example, only receives about 1.7% of the total health budget. That's not a lot of funding to work with. Especially considering that most presentations turning up at hospital on the island are things like diabetes, cancer, respiratory issues and heart disease which are heaviliy influenced by 'lifestyle' factors..

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Nigel Nosedive commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:38am

If commercial fishing was as good at 'raping' the environment as many respondents claim then we could apply the same techniques to remove carp, gambusia, tiliapia cane toads from our ecosystems. We don't because it is bloody hard to wipe out productive quick growing mass spawners. Caution and corrective management is best reserved for turtles etc which aren't as resilient.

Best way to get rid an area of troublesome flora and fauna is to clear the area and plant soybean, palm oil, latest fad crop etc . You can rest easy then because once cleared the original inhabitants generally don't come back and get injured or killed by the plough or harvester.

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:42am

Not sure I agree exactly. There's no question individual GPs can be shoddy, when a patient wanders up and says this is wrong, make it stop, a cure is what they reach for in some form or other. It's not always a prescription, but I dig that it might often be with a shoddy GP. I really have heard plenty of friends say, the doc says I need to lose weight. Docs never tell me to exercise and eat better because it's clear that I do already.

A mate of mine is a nutritionist and she is forever telling me how she can't find the magic words to get people to actually stop smoking and do some exercise. I'm overweight and feeling crap, how do I fix it....start by stopping smoking, eat better and do some exercise. Weeks later, still sneaking butts, watching tellie and eating maccas. It's individuals here who are the problem. No one is keeping healthy living a secret, and least of all the docs.

As you say floyd, look at the messages the peak bodies advocate, stop smoking, get your exercise, don't drink too much, eat a balanced diet. That's their primary message and if people aren't getting that, then they aren't opening their eyes.

Stok's picture
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Stok commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 10:52am

Nigel Nosedive wrote: If commercial fishing was as good at 'raping' the environment as many respondents claim then we could apply the same techniques to remove carp, gambusia, tiliapia cane toads from our ecosystems. We don't because it is bloody hard to wipe out productive quick growing mass spawners. Caution and corrective management is best reserved for turtles etc which aren't as resilient.

Best way to get rid an area of troublesome flora and fauna is to clear the area and plant soybean, palm oil, latest fad crop etc . You can rest easy then because once cleared the original inhabitants generally don't come back and get injured or killed by the plough or harvester.


Nigel, we don't apply those same techniques simply because who's going to pay for it?

There's plenty of people willing to pay for prawns at all costs on the other hand.

Oh and 80% of the world's soy crops go to feed the 16 billion odd livestock we have on the planet, so it's not really a fad crop, it's more of a crop which is keeping meat on your plate (not necessarily your plate I know, but globally this is the case).

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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:14am

zenagain wrote: Totally agree.

Do you honestly think the medical community are in cahoots with business and government to keep people fat so the dollars (no pun intended) keep rolling in?

Uppity may be right in that doctors lack specific training in nutrition but to say they're complicit is a long bow to draw Floydo.

Many doctors are just themselves victims, by choice, of the drive for profit and productivity above all else. They do advocate exercise and eating well, its just they haven't got a clue in how to do it. They push whatever triangle is the flavour of the times. Their main focus has to be to keep up with the latest drugs, and procedures, where the big money is, and what people beg them for.

So they are forced to offer idiotic solutions, 2 free PT's, a free week at the gym, that will at least look like the issue is in hand. I deal with the useless system daily.

It is pure, unbridled ignorance, a total lack of experience, that tries to mock shifting 5 tons in a hour. Its actually quite reasonable to expect it, very achievable, and a cornerstone of resistance training, with its many long proven benefits that when combined with effective nutrition address the lack of muscle/hormone epidemic, along with a plethora of others. Over time our society has accepted a ridiculously low level of health/fitness as 'normal', and anyone fit/healthy is viewed as a 'fanatic'. So the waiting lists and epidemics burgeon.

And the trucks roll.

Grimace, screech, squwark, curse, deflect, but, uppity IS , not may be, IS right that doctors lack specific training in nutrition. Add exercise to that as well.

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:22am

Triple d, that does make you shudder.

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:23am

Who mocks weightlifting and exercise in whatever form, 5 tonnes moved or any other?

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50young commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:37am

5 Tonne is not even 3 sets of squats

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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:44am

Doctors advocated the very plan that causes obesity. Too many carbs, no fat. Especially saturated. Resistance training sounds great. So do lots of things. Sounding and doing... not quite the same.

Nerve twitching... maybe diet related... maybe not... you raised the 5 tons as not necessary Benski... why? It is. And again, why is it? How would you move that 5 tons. Very important,actually, crucial. How would you increase it and why? There are two states, anabolic, catabolic. So much to learn. Muscles are designed to work, to bear load, like the skeleton. Anabolic/catabolic.

The epidemics are real. 1,000 born every second... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:47am

"you raised the 5 tons as not necessary Benski... why? "

Huh? No I didn't. Quite the opposite. Ease up on the persecution complex mate.

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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 11:51am

'If people ate the diet and did the amount of exercise recommended by the medical community, they wouldn't be overweight. Might not move 5 tonnes an hour or whatever but they surely wouldn't be unhealthy porkers.'

You said that Benski. You raised they mightn't do it. Again, why? Complex. Why?

I have to go an train people.

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benski commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 12:00pm

er yeah, exactly. I said that if people ate the diet the medical community recommends and did the amount of exercise also recommended, they wouldn't be obese. Such a person who follows that regimen might not be able to move 5 tonnes in an hour, which is clearly the capability of someone who is very fit and dedicated to exercise and their health, but equally they wouldn't be obese. The point being, if we followed the advice of the medical community, it's unlikely we'd be obese.

If that reads like I'm mocking your exercise plan or any other high intensity work out, then yeah you might need to consider the persecution complex.

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50young commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 12:14pm

hey Benski, 5 tonne may sound like a lot but if you break it down it's nothing, certainly not "the capability of someone who is very fit and dedicated to exercise and their health".. 4 sets of 50kg bench press 15 reps = 3 Tonne, add the same in squats theres 6 tonne total and we could easily complete this in under 15 mins

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mk1 commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 12:28pm

Worked with an overweight woman who's daughter got into health and educated mumsy on food and nutrition. She was shocked! Absolutely shocked! That the government let so many shitty foods get sold to the public. All I could say was it's no one else's responsibility but your own to look after your health and educate yourself. Waiting for the government to sort your life for you???

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50young commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 12:31pm

1 hr on the treadmill for a super fit person may = a Big Mac. Says it all

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floyd commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 1:07pm

50young wrote: 1 hr on the treadmill for a super fit person may = a Big Mac. Says it all

yeah, gyms are full of overweight people coz, geez mate just been to the gym I've earned some cake or sugary "health bar" as a "compensation food" except the calories in the health bar far overweigh the benefit of the gym session ..........

same with big fat overweight lycra covered road bikers ... ride 30km to the cafe and pig out, really feel sorry for their lycra and carbon fibre bike, surely its against the laws of physics!!

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50young commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 1:32pm

Like the statement "I eat Healthy" the food may be healthy but the portion size is 4 times their requirement. a lot of people have no idea how to read a nutrition label on food packaging, false advertising like 99% fat free, should read, but 20 teaspoons of sugar added... Energy in should equal energy out otherwise excess energy will be converted to fat, a simple concept that not many seem to grasp

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a360 commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 2:18pm

I always wonder how vegan is a vegan do they have get outs??

For example if they are bitten by a snake do they refuse the anti-venom as it is produced from ''farmed/caged'' snakes ?

just wonderin

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uplift commented Wednesday, 3 Feb 2016 at 2:38pm

benski wrote: er yeah, exactly. I said that if people ate the diet the medical community recommends and did the amount of exercise also recommended, they wouldn't be obese. Such a person who follows that regimen might not be able to move 5 tonnes in an hour, which is clearly the capability of someone who is very fit and dedicated to exercise and their health, but equally they wouldn't be obese. The point being, if we followed the advice of the medical community, it's unlikely we'd be obese.

If that reads like I'm mocking your exercise plan or any other high intensity work out, then yeah you might need to consider the persecution complex.

It reads like someone who has no real experience, but who is making unconsidered assertions anyway. As pointed out, 5 ton is very achievable. I help people regularly who follow the exercise and nutrition advice of doctors, who are still unfit and overweight. The debunked, turned upside down food triangle that contributed to the obesity epidemic, just one classic ludicrous stuff up, is still commonly prescribed. as are the ludicrous 'workouts'. Which are also the result of no expertise or experience.

Yes, portion size is a debacle. The reality is it obviously should be different for everyone.

Also exercise techniques are important. And complex. doctors recommendations are comical, and usually guaranteed to shut hormones down. I regularly train guys who say they can squat 200kgs, but when the form I prefer is used, they beg for mercy after half a dozen with 70kgs. the goal should be to improve fitness and health, and not so much weight lifting ability. The boyz love their Ronnie Coleman apps. Its just that like many he is on his second lot of hips, etc, and the drugs alone cost a fortune.

And yes, exactly, the average person will burn stuff all fat in their 45 minute, 'high intensity' cardio session, and will eat on double after it. then there's those hormones again.