Do you like or hate Donald Trump, and why?

dimitrios10's picture
dimitrios10 started the topic in Tuesday, 29 May 2018 at 5:10pm

I am curious if you guys like DonaldTrump, or do you hate him?

Blob's picture
Blob's picture
Blob commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 12:55pm

Stunet

So you are saying the evangelical kid sweating in Cambodia on their holidays to build a house for people poorer than themself '...are not giving through generosity...' ....they don't do it for charitable reasons (like the culture free New Hampshirites) but because they are compelled by their culture or church.

Another self inflicted bloody nose

But...

Thank you for proving me right again, about lies, (insulting) liars and

the left are wrong about everything

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 1:07pm

Oh FFS...I could give you plenty of examples about the mega churches syphoning membership funds and manadatory tithes and Hillsong Blues and Westboro Baptists and religious tax writeoffs galore, all of it is 'charity' just like your little Mormon buddy, but really, what would be the point?

Jelly Flater's picture
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Jelly Flater commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 1:33pm

Aaaah Blob.
It’s like watching somebody try bail out a sinking ship with only their bare hands... You can try all you want and you can keep trying. It won’t work.
Some of your quotes:
‘I say Trump is actually very intelligent and a master communicator’
- cue Trump talking about Mexicans... “they’re rapists!”
Ol trumpy likes the odd taco for the right price ay... (Stormy waters)
And the blob: ‘I know I’m seen as biased but I’m often actually calling for balance’ ... strange statement after proclaiming repeatedly ‘the left are wrong about everything!’ Everything??? Really??? Sound balanced?!
And again... ‘Do you reckon Obama was motivated by ego and ideology and did some crap getting to the top?’... Well, how the fark do you know? You seem to be protesting that nobody knows trumps motivations etc. (Except you of course in your fantastical world of delusion). Try reading Obama’s book titled Dreams From My Father - it may enlighten you on aspects of Obama’s early years and a reality that you have conveniently bypassed... But of course it’s all a made up story, it’s fake news ;)
And this one, this is gold - ‘I’m trying to get to the facts’ ;);) Write that one down for ya self and put it up on ya fridge you idiot!
The self proclaimed expert Blob is trying to get to the facts!! Maybe should have considered that lightbulb moment before you try exclaiming every one is proving you right... As every one else is wrong... Right?
Now you can pretend to try and back up your idiotic self serving delusions and in the meantime accuse others of being wrong but the one true clown here is you Blob. I can see you skipped the introspection part because that will only be touched upon once you consider the reality that you haven’t produced anything yourself from actual facts. Do you understand that ?!
You have read a bunch of shit that suits your own agenda and you simply admire Trump because you unconsciously identify the same selfish and ugly traits he has that you also have... Keep huffing and puffing all you want... Your perceptive abilities may work for you - unfortunately you will be unable to discover any balance or any facts until you change your perspective and your attitude. This won’t happen trying to interpret stuff in accordance with your own ignorance. If you are really calling for balance, if you are really trying to get to the facts then I suggest you backtrack and read through all your comments in this thread ;);) Balanced?! Factual?! ;);)
You don’t know shit. You are pretending. The hypocrite and the liar is Blob.
You know that, and you are just afraid...
And nice analogies to do with punching blindly etc... You are flailing in the wind and you can’t even land a slap! And you won’t bounce back...
Pretender. It’s all jibber jabber. Oh, and everybody else is wrong. Right?! ;);)

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 1:36pm

Sypkan, fascinating listen, covering such a wide array of essential topics.

However unless something drastic happens, I reckon it'll be a long time before we see a basic universal income in Australia - jobs will continue to disappear and I'm pretty confident that Australian politics will be ok with seeing a booming class of working poor as opposed to considering a universal wage.

Also, although he says democracy isn't going anywhere, and I agree with that in theory, I still don't know how we're going to back-pedal from the compromised version we currently have.
In other words, sometimes it doesn't matter if you have "democracy" - just ask the Russians.

http://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/conversations-gwynne-...

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 2:21pm

I had a listen today. Maybe not as impressed as Andy. Too many simplifications and generalisations. He didn't really justify his starting point that Trump is doing us a favour. It is a big call when, having possibly made the right diagnosis, his remedies are likely to make things much worse.

Where he is on the money is in recognising that we are at a turning point. We are not going back to anything like the pre-Trump era, but that has nothing to do with Trump and everything to do with the speed of technological change over taking our political, economic and social capacity to direct it. This generation of political leaders in the west are headed for the dust bin of history with Trump on the bottom with the dirty nappies. As with climate change, though over a shorter period, it was easy to see this coming and they did nothing.

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sypkan commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 2:57pm

Yeh he's a real big picture guy andym, trying to put it all together.

I thought his interpretation of numbers was particularly good, like where jobs are actually going, and the actual trends. Actual interpretation! Rather than the usual...raw, bland, and bias.

Really interesting his numbers on friend groups too. And, how we operate within those groups ie. as equals. Now those groups are growing apart, dividing society in the process.

Yeh he went a bit socialist utopia, but his ideas for where we're at, and where we're heading in analysis was excellent.

Unfortunately I think we're heading a bit more blade runner road at the moment.

"I'm pretty confident that Australian politics will be ok with seeing a booming class of working poor as opposed to considering a universal wage."

Yep, agree, and for quite some time I reckon. 'the aspirationals' are still the dominant force in oz...at the moment...

Aspirational turkeys voting for thanksgiving.

I actually think the universal basic income is a bit of a crock of shit tbh. I think that we'll have to head towards that direction in some form or another, but the current model being pushed is just a bit of socialist wonderland dreaming, a little naive at best.

How a western style wage unversal basic income can operate alongside the current model for globalisation remains to be seen.

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 2:54pm

"He didn't really justify his starting point that Trump is doing us a favour."

He doesn't need to. The behaviour of the resistance post trump is evidence enough that some people needed a wake up call to the realities of the world.

Trump's gift was letting you know now.

The alternative, another four years of discontent, under fucking hilary clinton of all people, would have left you and the world with a much ruder shock to deal with.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 3:34pm

.......yeh but that wake up call has been pretty much ignored or, in Trump's case been perverted into a crazy attempt to go back to the past. So the benefit of Trump as a wake up call, zero. Well before the election there were plenty of commentators pointing to the factors that eventually got him elected and before that there were several books and substantial articles in mainstream media detailing the issues he exploited.There was no surprise in him getting the disaffected white middle aged male vote, the surprise was that so many apparently moderate Republicans were prepared to vote for a moron.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 3:55pm

Nah, I agree with Dyer's assessment that we can thank Trump. Inadvertent though it is, and his political legacy is far from assured, but his election has given oxygen to a discourse that had studiously been avoided for decades.

If he delivers on even a fraction of what he says, then his is the presidency we had to have.

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blindboy commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 4:05pm

Please elaborate Stu, I would have thought that Trump's erratic behaviour has taken oxygen away from the real issues. The space and time devoted to Stormy Daniels, Cohen, Manafort etc etc has been a complete waste in terms of actual,policy.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 4:27pm

BB - yet everywhere you look, with Trump as the major catalyst, the discussion includes detailed analyses of populism, neoliberalism, the future of the working class and the future of democracy.

Trump's a turd but sunlight may yet be the best disinfectant.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 4:28pm

I must be looking in the wrong places Andy, all I see is scandal, sensation and entrenched positions ....... I will look around a bit more.

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stunet commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 4:39pm

@BB,

Well, I've had a few exchanges with Blowin about how issues around worker's rights are back on the table. Blowin thought Labor abandoned workers, but I disagree, I think the worker's got aspirational and no longer had much need for collective bargaining etc and, mixed with Howard's chicanery, that issue fell by the wayside. Now it's coming back with gusto. The desire to avoid the American underclass is especially prevalent.

Also, not since Seattle '99 and the No Logo era have the downsides to globalisation been so seriously considered. Not considered by fringe groups, that's always occurred, but it's back on the broadsheet agenda.

In terms of economic systems, the road to the future felt like a narrow-gauge railway: fixed and immutable. This was how things were, are, and always will be. Francis Fukuyama and all that. Suck it up and get on with it. But Trump has at least provided a circuit breaker to that pattern.

Whether his protectionism and tariff-raising is ultimately succesful is another thing entirely, but for now he's shown that there's a large body of people who are unhappy with the way the system is working and here in Australia they're gathering their voice.

Of course it's emboldened the far right but it's hard to argue that some solid left issues are finally being heard.

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 4:46pm

Francis Fukuyama and all that.

And look what fukuyama is saying now

Gotta love an academic that can actually admit they were wrong

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blindboy commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 5:06pm

Fair enough Stu, but I'm still not convinced that Trump had all that much do with it. He has turned the Presidency into a grotesque parody of a reality TV show that draws attention away from the important issues and we all keep falling for it.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 5:11pm

Maybe it's inadvertent, but I've no doubt that under Hilary it would've been same old same old.

As I said before, if something good comes from it then his is the presidency we had to have.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 5:52pm

And this resetting of the globalist order and a confrontation with a China - particularly a trade based confrontation- is another situation we had to have.

I view globalisation/ open borders ( one begets the other if run full course ) as something akin to a commune or collective populated by nations and cultures.

You had anything to do with a commune / collective ?

Inspirational idea on paper , the reality is that sooner or later a point of fundamental difference is reached between cohabitants.

Someone fucks someone else’s partner , someone isn’t pulling their weight , someone’s skills are undervalued , someone is a bad fit for the group .

Then shit unravels and it unravels badly. Everyone is in everyone else’s pocket and things turn ugly real quick . This is despite the fact that the people joining in these things in the first place being generally more accomodating and tolerant than your average mug punter.

Think what it means when intertwined communities get over each other quickly on a international scale.

It means bombs and guns.

Precisely the reason for dispensing with nations in the first place.

Globilisation and open borders won’t remove humanities intrinsic and valuable propensity for disharmony, it’ll only exacerbate the resultant conflict.

Contemplating a future without globalisation/ open borders isnt regressive thinking or attempting to turn back the clock. Globalisation is not imminent. It’s highly probable that it will occur especially with the complete backing of the Neoliberaists that have complete control of BOTH sides of Western politics and the economic system of the same , but it’s not in stone yet.

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Blob commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 7:11pm

Stunet

Help me out buddy, I'm really struggling with your logic

Are you (now) saying that your maths works out because all charity via churches is corrupt?,....or is this corrupt charity in addition to the charity you said religious people only give because the are forced or programmed to?

As in,
'x' + 'y' = 'y'
because 'x' is stupid

Keep digging and you'll end up in Utah.

You also seem to be very cynical about rich businessmen Mr. paywall.

I can tell you rich people have to satisfy the tax man like everyone else, and some give staggering amounts to charity that you never hear about.

Of course I only went down this road to contradict the fallacious cliche of compassionate lefties and hard hearted conservatives ....that was raised by Blindboy

Not all conservatives are super rich business men who go to mega churches.
Lots of them have less and give more.

The left INSISTS on always being wrong.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 7:07pm

Blob.

Keep persevering with your absolutes and it’s a guarantee that while you won’t always be wrong , you’ll never always be right.

Maybe give an example of the political workings you support so we know where you’re coming from.

Do you vote Liberal ?

Blob's picture
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Blob commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 7:09pm

Jelly flatter

Yeah, ...you're wrong

Unless you were really biased I think we all understand Trump was talking about those Mexicans who rape....because that would make them....umm, rapists.
You will find all the cases of illegal immigrant crime not reported in the mainstream media are reported in the media you don't like.

On Trumps intelligence.....been dealt with... read the earlier comments and contradict the points made if you are up for it.

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stunet commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 7:13pm

Take a terribly simple premise,
now turn it on it's head,
bring some inexplicable math into it,
ask me "are you saying X?" a couple of times,
like an evasive politician,
now we're ten timezones from the original premise,
and I'm wondering why I even bothered.
So I give up.

Here's the part where you think you've won.

And here's the part where you say the left is wrong on everything.

Blob's picture
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Blob commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 7:13pm

Blowin

I like Cory Bernadi

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Blob commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 7:26pm

Stunet

But I thought I was taking baby steps for you...
Really, I think you understand exactly what I have said and are, for obvious reasons, unwilling to rationally support your claim that church related compassion doesn't count.

It does count, and you are wrong, and your line is insulting to millions of good people.

If lefties do good I'm happy.
If lefties say conservatives can't do good I'm not.

Blob's picture
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Blob commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 8:07pm

Jelly flatter

Is trying to get wrong lefties to be more balanced by not being wrong not balanced?.
See, I'm all about balance.

Blob's picture
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Blob commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 7:38pm

Jelly flatter

Yes, from the available evidence Obama was motivated by ego and did some crappy things.....like Trump.
I don't, like some comments here, pretend to read Obama's mind and see a deranged lunatic though.
See, it's called balance
Try a bit of understanding....

Didn't read the rest of your post....I assume it's more of the same.

Westofthelake's picture
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Westofthelake commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 8:45pm

I finally got around to listening to the Gwynne Dyer podcast from earlier in the week. Keep posting these type of links please.
http://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/conversations-gwynne-...

If you're reading this and you haven't listened to it, please find the time. You will likely learn something new and gain a broader view of the bigger picture.

Blob I dont read any of your posts.......I assume its more of the same.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Thursday, 20 Sep 2018 at 9:02pm

Blob.

I like your posts. You’re on the path but your absolutism is a handicap. The left aren’t wrong about everything.

Unless you believe that kindness to strangers is a negative . Unless you believe that society should tread over the weak , hapless and naive in order to secure a higher reward for those without regard for the suffering of others.

Unless you’re a contemptuous fuckwit of the highest order.

I don’t think you’re that guy. I think that your pursuit of balance has pushed you past the point of equilibrium and to the point of ideology.

Don’t ever forget that the centre of gravity of a society that has drifted too heavily towards the right usually retraces with people put against a wall and shot. And that’s not a bad thing.

But I’m quite enthralled with the shellacking you’re giving to the absolute leftists.

Blob's picture
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Blob commented Friday, 21 Sep 2018 at 1:23pm

Blowin

Re. My absolutism
Yes I am....in SOME ways.
No apologies
I'm just intolerant...of lies

Big picture
The leftist/progressive worldview Vs. Rightist/conservative

As in....

(Naive) idealism Vs. (utilitarian)pragmatism
The group Vs. the individual
Enforced conformity Vs. freedom
Moral relativism Vs. absolute truth
A world government Vs. free nation states
Atheistic orientation Vs. Faith valued
Etc.
These overarching perspectives play out on the TV (and here) every day....

Open borders Vs. secure borders
Restrictions on free speech Vs free speech
More socialism Vs more free enterprise
More free welfare Vs more mutual responsibility
Higher taxes Vs more jobs
Multiculturalism Vs. patriotism, national identity and integration.

Etc

When you get the big picture wrong you get the details wrong too

...they'll always be wrong....and co opting compassion won't make them right.

You can judge the arguments that have played out here on their merits but don't fall for the lie that the left is compassionate and the right is greedy and mean.

Lies

Capitalism gives greater, uneven wealth

Socialism shares misery .....unevenly.

Who is telling the truth?
Derr....the runs are on history's board there for everyone to see.

Anyway, I reckon a lot of argument here is useless because of a failure to first agree on definitions...we're all at fault.

Eg. what is left wing and what is right wing?.

If we don't define terms we are ships passing in the night.
Of course unless you can't first neutralise bias youll find it hard to agree on definitions

That said, when I make a claim I do it on the basis of some evidence, which I know is disputable, while having acknowled my own bias.

The lefties, like zealous converts allow no fault in their religion.

I'm in the position of pushing back against dim, condescending, bullying, sometimes abusive liars.

Sorry bout the sarcasm

Condescending I don't mind....but bullies.....

and I'm happy to be proven wrong.
Doesn't happen.

Eg. I call out the mainstream media as progressive and biased, while ADMITTING the bias of Breitbart etc.

The lefties reply that the MS media isn't biased at all
I give my evidence
They concede nothing

Who is wrong?

The answer shouldn't be too hard to find.

Mountains of abuse and conspiracy against Trump.
Adoration and then a little belated disappointment for the Messiah Obama

Stunet, his 'secular' charity argument.... and a dozen other disagreements.

Am I wrong?
Tell me how.

The lefties are appalled by the violent resentment of right wing haters.
The people they label as deplorable.
They can't see that their own arch smugness and bullying is fuelling the hate.
I'm a moderate by comparison.

The reaction of mainstream media over the career of Pauline Hanson Is a perfect case study

She was demonised

She was only representing the feelings of working class regional Aussies

The media are socially progressive and economically schizophrenic

Happy to be wrong though.

Blob's picture
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Blob commented Friday, 21 Sep 2018 at 1:26pm

Westofthelake

Still luv ya babe

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Westofthelake commented Friday, 21 Sep 2018 at 6:16pm

Awww blob you really do care...so you may actully be a socialist at heart?
Perhaps that's what makes us human?
You should probably stick with Cory though, he seems to be more up your alley.

I focus's picture
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I focus commented Friday, 21 Sep 2018 at 7:12pm

I understand Gwynne Dyer's Trump theory just don't see the road where it can happen.

David Brooks on NPR pointed out that most of the Democrats who made it through the primary's are not that far left or that the Dem's haven't lurched to the left "Republican lite" in other words business as usual driven by big money.

Westofthelake's picture
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Westofthelake commented Tuesday, 25 Sep 2018 at 12:09pm

Interesting/critical letter from Yale regarding Trump's pick for the Supreme Court, Brett Kavanaugh.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScUrOBy5sPzw1VGusbYr2VqVqPiNmO5...

Now the nominee's moral integrity is being questioned by 2 women, and he's on the front foot....you couldn't make this stuff up if you tried. Interesting times indeed.
https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/second-sexual-assault-claim-...

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peterb commented Tuesday, 25 Sep 2018 at 7:42pm

Given Trump's tariffs will complicate every international line of supply that includes China and his decision to levy tax on this Chinese component, and knowing that the only accepted code that identifies a product's history is its barcode, and knowing that in these new circumstances the existing structure of the barcode is deficient ... I'd be looking to sink a few quid into whatever outfit makes the best use of this new age red tape bonanza.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Wednesday, 26 Sep 2018 at 6:38am

More fake news from a leftie rag! Now say "Thank you Vladimir, who will you put in next?"
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/01/how-russia-helped-to-swing...

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Blowin commented Wednesday, 26 Sep 2018 at 8:11am

Jeez , BB . This tendency to perpetuate this saga is like a dog returning to its own vomit.

There’s no evidence. Nothing to prove it happened beyond wishful thinking .Your link is just more aspersions. The entire premise of this story is an inconsistency within three surveys of ( less than ) a thousand people regarding their possible intention to vote based on their possibly fleeting reaction to a debate

“there was a “small but significant drop in reported intention to vote for her.” This statistic, too, struck Jamieson as curious;”

So a small drop in an unscientific accounting of people’s rough intentions to do something they may fail to do , backed up by zero evidence , is the crux of this piece.

You’re a smart guy , way too smart to place the faith in statistics as you do. Before the election all the polls and statistics were stating that Trump had no chance of winning , right up until the moment he did. That’s how reliable statistics are.

Let it go BB. The relentless campaign by all involved to delegitimise Trump reeks of petulance. The lady in the story is profiteering from this petulance by selling a book falsely bolstering this deluded faith.

Trump is president.

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blindboy commented Wednesday, 26 Sep 2018 at 3:34pm

Yeh right! An independent academic with decades of experience analysing the factors that influence elections, including Presidential elections, states that there IS evidence. And that this amounts to proof beyond what is usually necessary that they made the difference. But Blowin, after scanning the article, or not decides otherwise. I know where my money would be on that little disagreement. Highly experienced independent analyst vs. blogger of unknown educational status and relevant experience in the field.

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Westofthelake commented Wednesday, 26 Sep 2018 at 3:57pm

I thought it was a good article bb, and the fact that it all came down to basically 3 states that decided the outcome via electoral college votes indicates how close it was. Obviously there was no one single thing that contributed directly to his election, but a whole range of various inputs, including Russia, and whilst there is no conclusive proof, it does tend to give weight to the probability that some pretty shady shit occurred.
The bottom line is that he is the President, but that doesn't mean he is any less of a fuckwit.

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AndyM commented Wednesday, 26 Sep 2018 at 5:08pm

It actually makes me have a little giggle when people go on and on and on about Russia's supposed efforts.

Even if they're true, they're quite pissant.

"Discourse sabatouers"... hahahahah!!

On the other hand:

"there were 117 “partisan electoral interventions” between 1946 and 2000. That’s around one of every nine competitive elections held since Second World War.

The majority of these – almost 70 per cent – were cases of US interference.

And these are not all from the Cold War era; 21 such interventions took place between 1990 and 2000, of which 18 were by the US.

Those countries where secret tactics have been deployed by the US include: Guatemala, Brazil, El Salvador, Haiti, Panama, Israel, Lebanon, Iran, Greece, Italy, Malta, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, South Vietnam and Japan."

Serious question:

Has anyone seen ANYTHING broadcast on Australian media which puts Russia's so-called efforts into perspective against the U.S.' efforts over the years?

If nothing else, at least there are some pockets in the U.S. which are capable of honest self-reflection.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/americas-long-history-of-meddlin...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/sunday-review/russia-isnt-the-only-on...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/07/the-us-has-a-long-hist...

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spuddyjack commented Wednesday, 26 Sep 2018 at 6:58pm

@Andy M.

Quite right there, Andy.
Notwithstanding the Yanks plot to bring down the Whitlam Labor Government after Gough aired his justifiable concerns about Septic activities at Pine Gap. It's also worth watching the film THE FALCON AND THE SNOWMAN relating to US interference in OZ. U.S. meddling has been appalling and you can add Chile 1973 and the downfall of Salvador Allende's government.

Stay salty

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Thursday, 27 Sep 2018 at 9:10am

The damn US of A .

They’ve been bringing down governments for years.

Let’s not forget Hitler , Tojo and Mussolini.

https://youtu.be/r9uizdKZAGE

And for all those that believe China has been the poor whipping boy of the West for centuries and that they’re entitled to a bit of payback , ask yourself how they avoided Japanese takeover during WW2 .

Flying tigers. ( Team America )

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Thursday, 27 Sep 2018 at 9:36am

You advocating the devil or sincerely think the US should meddle in the sovereignty of other countries?

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Thursday, 27 Sep 2018 at 10:40am

I think America should pull their heads in and take care of their own backyard. From day one at the end of WW2.

But.....if they’d done that , if they hadn’t cemented their strength and power by altering the state of other countries for their own gain , then maybe they wouldn’t have been strong enough to prevent a rival power from assuming hegemony over the world.

A rival power that could’ve been less kind than to merely inflict Adam Sandler comedies on us.*

What if the US had pulled its head in , post WW2 , and Russia filled the role of global superpower ? Cause someone will always fill that role There’s got to be a top dog. Humans are hierarchical.

*To be fair , I got a laugh out of a couple of them . But Jack and Jill is THE worst movie ever made.

I’m no fan of American foreign policy in total . But Australia has faired very well under its protection. Someone , somewhere is going to get fucked over , I’m just glad it hasn’t been us .....yet. ( touch wood ).

PS How do you think we would’ve fared with Indonesia all these years without the US’s external projection of power looking over us ?

I wish humanity could all hold hands and coexist in peace . But that’ll never happen . Humanity, as a component of nature , is designed to compete so as to ensure the strongest prevail . Theory being that the most capable human survival technique will be the one that propels humanity further towards success...which is further from extinction ie maximum sustainable population.

Look at this graph - https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/updated-World-Popu...

Global population exponential increase since the US took power over the world. In view of natural success being defined by population growth , it’s inarguable that the US hegemony has an overall beneficial effect.

Cause and effect ? Who knows .

Fact is that more people have lived under better circumstances than at anytime in the history of humanity.

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factotum commented Thursday, 27 Sep 2018 at 12:45pm

"The process of shaping opinion, attitudes, and perceptions was termed the 'engineering of consent' by one of the founders of the modern public relations industry, Edward Bernays." - Noam Chomsky

"When governments rely increasingly on sophisticated public relations agencies, public debate disappears and is replaced by competing propaganda campaigns, with all the accompanying deceits. Advertising isn't about truth or fairness or rationality, but about mobilising deeper and more primitive layers of the human mind." - Brian Eno

"Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard P. Feynman

The ol' US 'PR' really works, hey?

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Thursday, 27 Sep 2018 at 12:51pm

Well we - as a unified nation of Australians- haven’t faced an existential threat on Aussie soil to date thanks to the USA.

That’s some convincing PR.

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AndyM commented Thursday, 27 Sep 2018 at 1:27pm

Blowin you can't possibly justify the U.S.' history of interventionism with that argument.

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Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Thursday, 27 Sep 2018 at 1:59pm

Andy - I’m not into stealing or violence but some people are. Cultures are similar in that some are more peaceful, tolerant and content with their situation than others. Like the varying degrees of peacefulness amongst individual people , this is mostly the result of circumstance.

If the USA hadn’t been the global bad boy , another country would have.

The human condition !

I’d say that the USA standing over everyone else has been as low impact as possible considering the extent of the expansion of global population. Expanding populations have previously equated to conflict over territory through out history. With the USA and it’s complacent allies standing over the rest of the world and enforcing a global rules based order, the world has been a much better place overall. Particularly from an Australian perspective.

Sometimes the USA lets you know that they’re powerful enough to break their own rules, but I would say that globally we experienced a very stable and peaceful time when contrasted with the rest of human history.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Thursday, 27 Sep 2018 at 2:56pm

My point of view is not necessarily that another nation should be the dominant world power, rather that every country, and especially the U.S. because of its economic, military and cultural power, should not be beyond reproach.

The U.S. has shown again and again, over the last 200+ years that it will do whatever is necessary to enforce its ideology, whether that means a gentle talking to, economic sanctions or invasion and slaughter.

I'm not too happy about that kind of mentality being beyond criticism.

And I suspect you underestimate the human cost of directly and indirectly imposing U.S. ideology (aka business interests) in dozens of countries around the world.

Wars are pretty obvious - Iraq claimed 500 000 dead civilians.

Other "meddling" also resulted in slaughter on a large scale - Guatemala 200 000, Haiti 8700, 40 000 dead in Chile and so on and so on.

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/analysis/10-of-the-Most-Lethal-CIA-Int...

"The overall conclusion reached is that the United States most likely has been responsible since WWII for the deaths of between 20 and 30 million people in wars and conflicts scattered over the world."

Not sure if you can call that "low impact".

https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-has-killed-more-than-20-million-people-...

Then we can move on to deaths caused by sanctions - if you really want...

Basically, for you to sit in Oz and say that the U.S. is alright by you because your country is essentially a proxy state, is morally indefensible.

But it's ok because it doesn't really affect you and the Coaltion of the Willing is doing the world a favour, right?

And we haven't even started on inextricably linked concepts of globalisation/neoliberalism/population growth/environmental damage which I see you protest against on a regular basis.

Food for thought?

CryptoKnight's picture
CryptoKnight's picture
CryptoKnight commented Thursday, 27 Sep 2018 at 2:58pm

'Andy - I’m not into stealing or violence but some people are.'

FFS HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... that's fucking hilarious!!!! In a nutshell. Please stop... and stupe' I know your trainin' ya boy up in word smithin' and shite, so he 's got a special place in ya heart... but FFS please stop... its beyond ludicrous!!!

Out of all the forms of training to stay fit, blownit chooses beating the fuck out of, and posturing and gesturing, and threatening for hours on end, a 'heavy bag'.

'Eye woodunt lyke farkin' well snot enywun aaayye... but...'

Yet when visiting 'waltons' bay,

'The inlaws live in a beautiful part of the world. Whilst the surf can get world class at times it is mostly just fun, and uncrowded. Which is more than fine. In factsome locations are so uncrowded that it is like surfing in a different era. One spot i call 1972 due to the fact that it reminds me of a scene from morning of the earth. Crystal clear zippering walls with barely a soul out- generally one or two others. This coupled with the verdant tree lined headland and sand bottom makes it a pleasure to surf'

Having surfed and gotten stoned all day, as a blowin, he ignores all surfing custom, wants pole position, drops in on a local, fighting over a 2 foot crap wave, and this is the reaction????

'Then the red mist came over me
It was the assumed resentment of the women that really got me.
The smug superiority of some small minded no- one cunt moll that set me off. I turned to face Loud Mouth in front of his cunting piece of shit friends and with every ounce of will ,energy and misdirected anger from every point of my life i drove my fist into that cunt's putrid face and punched him to the sand.
I was standing over Loud Mouth's form bellowing that he was an imposter king presiding over a weak, gay wave, raising my fist for another blow when i realised my hand was broken . Then i heard a lady screaming and i was back in my head, concious of what i'd done , aware of where i was.
Loud Mouth was not cowering , but all fight had left the man. He was submissive but i was not gracious. Thank fuck i did not have a gun cause if i did i would have shot the cunt. The only thing that stopped me from kicking him till he twitched was some chick throwing herself over his prostrate form.
I looked up to see four hundred sets of eyes willing me in gaol. I walked towards the path that led to the carpark, unrepentent, as i approached my car a smiling mother said to her young son "look at that mans face honey! " , i stared at her and tried to fathom what type of person would be so insensitive to anothers situation.Then i told her to "shut the fuck up , mole," and walked to my car.
Looking in my cars rear view mirror i saw that Loud Mouth's initial punch had broken my nose. I straightened it suprisingly easily and drove one handed to the hospital where the nurses shook their heads with scepticism and unabashed disgust as i lied to their faces and told them i had broken my hand and nose in a wipeout.'

https://www.swellnet.com/forums/wax/12736

Interesting. But please stop. Its beyond ludicrous...

(of course that's assuming one iota of the 'saga' is true)

And again, don't blame donald, he didn't invent the shit...

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Thursday, 27 Sep 2018 at 3:09pm

This page makes for extremely sobering reading, and it's the kind of stuff that doesn't get talked about, not even on the ABC ;)

https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-has-killed-more-than-20-million-people-...

CryptoKnight's picture
CryptoKnight's picture
CryptoKnight commented Thursday, 27 Sep 2018 at 3:37pm

Never, ever underestimate the power of conditioning. A double edged sword.

Traditional Indigenous Australians are the classic, opposite scenario. 80,000 or so years of conditioned, taught, cherished and so practiced cooperation, comparative harmony and equality, compared to a championed and worshipped, conditioned and enforced, perpetually collapsing bloodbath.

Humans, but viewing the life and world through totally different, chosen and reinforced lenses. Its a long time, 80,000 years.