Submitted by dimitrios10 on Tue, 05/29/2018 - 17:10
I am curious if you guys like DonaldTrump, or do you hate him?
Yeh possibly sypkan, it is probably for history to decide. The full consequences of Bush's invasion of Iraq are still playing out. It is impossible to predict the consequences of Trump's Presidency.
Cheers bb for the podcast link. I just listened to Ep 1 with Leigh Sales. Always a pleasure there. I did see the interview with Comey when it was shown on the abc so it was good to get further insight. I have to wonder how much his actions the day or so before the election affected Hilarys prospects?
I knew that the Dems were deluded (from my perspective) when they picked Hilary over my old mate Berno. It sort of reinforced my belief that the democrats were secretly cotrolled by the neo liberal forces.
Sypkan I'd have to agree with you that Trump is the lesser of two evils compared to the Bush crime family and other "star wars bar" (haha) current options. This begs the question, who do the democrats have as an alternative to Donald Trump?
There's no doubt that the world under Clinton might have been worse in that she probably made a more controllable puppet for the elites. In a way Im glad Trump got elected instead of Hilary. That being said, he's still a good ol genuine made in the USA fuckwit.
@Blindboy Even if those things were true which is debatable, you can find faults in all politicians.
The reason why people voted Trump in though, is because he is not your typical politician.
People just want real people, he might be an arrogant rich businessman but he is still a real arrogant rich businessman, he says what he thinks and keeps it real, everyone knew what he was like before they voted him in they knew he wasn't an angel.
Even when he spins shit he spins it straight up, no going round in circles using words and language the common man would never use.
People respect that, god i wish we had someone like that we could vote for, closest we have come is Bob Hawk he was real.
Just give us real people with real life experience.
"...I'd have to agree with you that Trump is the lesser of 2 evils compared to the Bush crime family and any current options. This begs the question, who do the democrats have as an alternative to Donald Trump?
This is the sad thing, they have no one, no potentials, no ideas, nothing. It's kind of ironic obama has left them indentity-less and struggling to find anything at all uniting. This would be bad enough on its own, but they have to go up against trump, with a whole heap of party baggage to carry. A fucked up task for any poor soul. And, they've got no one, nothing to offer. Two years on, and they've got absolutely nothing. Scary times.
"....he's still a genuine made in the USA good ol fuckwit."
Pretty much. One of the best.
indo Trump couldn't keep it real to save his life. He lives in an alternative universe in which he is the richest, most successful person in the world, is incredibly attractive to women, and nothing he ever did was wrong . Reality is that he is a vain fat ugly bastard whose wealth came from laundering money from Russian criminals, who has to pay large ums of money to get women to have sex with him. He says what he thinks alright but on a minute by minute basis with no guarantee that what he thinks now will be anything like what he thinks in five minutes time and even less guarantee that any of it will connect with anything resembling reality.
who exactly is the lesser of two evils will be discovered in time. I'm sure lots and lots is going on in the shadows while Trump continues to play out his distraction tactics.
You do me a dis-service sypkan, I've been equally distrustful of both sides of American politics for a very long time. This is essentially why I continually shake my head in disbelief at the rush to emulate American economic, health, education and latterly environmental policy by the ultra right rump inside the once centre-right LNP. I also seriously question why Australia must follow these jackasses into war at the drop of a hat.
A couple of people have made the claim that Trump has high staff turnover
I wonder if they are honest enough to admit that there has been a concerted strategy to undermine Trump by getting at those who work with him
Was Obama treated like Trump?.
Outside elitist media these stories are continual
Who is lying?
some people think the NYT is unbiased
Some people think fake news is all in Trumps feverish mind
The left are wrong about everything
Some thoughts on how this conversation has played out.
Trump is a lightning rod for the emotions of an angry generation.
....and this is classic culture wars stuff
.....people are projecting, he is a mirror
Trump hasn't been given a FAIR GO.
Critics will say he doesn't deserve a fair go because.....he's special
assertions about Trumps MOTIVES are no better than lies.
Fact...Nobody knows his motives
Those who claim they know his motivation define themselves as dishonest....when they say he is dishonest they define themselves as hypocrites.
Attacks on his CHARACTER are selective. His critics give free passes to leaders they like.
He is a business man who has survived one jungle and entered another. No excuses but he isn't especially evil....the game is dirty and he should be given as much slack as others.
Any common sense reference to his achievement defines those who attack his INTELLIGENCE as....lacking intelligence
Many people now have a deep distrust, if not disdain of the media, the 'experts', and the ideologue next door.
While I'm sure I can be called guilty myself, I do my best to make my point and then back it up with fact.
While I consume a lot of right wing media I also cannot escape the pervasive left wing media bubble that reaches us all.
Is JJJ green left wing?
What reach has It got to under 30s?
If you don't consume both sides of the stories you cannot claim ANY balance.
Eg. If you think Alan Jones is biased but the ABC is neutral you are a naive
If you listen to the ABC but not Jones your opinions are, at a guess, one sided
Coming from an extreme left wing background my opinions have changed simply by reading history, observing history play out, and thinking for myself.
lies are the lifeblood of the radical left...and dangerous...and believed more and more by people who should know better.
We now have majorities in the US of democrats and people under 30 preferring socialism over capitalism. The increase has been rapid and reflects the indoctrination in education and media.
A Bernie may get the Oval Office in the near future
That doesn't mean I'm a fan of everyone on the right, but notice how leftists never stop blaming the right, or money, or business, while never acknowledging the Left's history of continual catastrophic failure. (See Blindboy claim China represents a success for communist totalitarianism)
The context of my conservative choice is simple.
For all its flaws the traditional values and institutions of western civilisation : rule of law, individual freedom, free markets, religious morality etc have given us the best societies, while the leftist experiment has been an continual story of woe..
I must be a fascist
Hearing some of richest people in history (Australians) cry victim and calling for a swing to the left while they enjoy all the fruits of the capitalism that got us here is hard to take.
They are juvenile
For example, guy smiley or west of the lake said we have become poorer over the last decades under Bush, Howard etc.
I went into detail about how this is so wrong as to be delusional
No rebuttal from them
It's simple. Who is right and who is lying?
I said Reagan was mocked like Trump but hugely influential in winning the Cold War.
Blindboy (at first) said Reagan had little or nothing to do with it.
Who is wrong?.
Do the left of the left want open borders or not?
Do they want to control markets and your income?
What would happen to Australia if we let in every 'refugee' that wanted to come?
If Trump is as stupid as Blindboy et al say then they would be able to get 10,000 people into an arena like him right?.
But they can't.
I say Trump is actually very intelligent and a master communicator
True or false?....Fact is he fills stadiums
Trump has flaws.....all presidents do.
Big Dog Bill Clinton is almost certainly a rapist - the media circled the wagons around him.
JFK was an appalling sexual predator ....and a hero of the left.
Gillard...read the fine print
But they put Trump in a select category of villain.
Why? Because he calls them out and he wins.
Trump is only a symbol. It is the stark defining of their own hypocrisy that infuriates them.
I like it.
The Trump haters say he is putting himself through all this pain because he is an immoral power hungry demagogue ....not a billionaire patriot with enough ego to think he has the answers.
Which scenario makes more sense?
Unproven assertions are no better than lies.......and focusing only on negatives without giving Trump any credit for successes defines the critic as unreliable.
One galling aspect of these discussions is how Progressives frame everything, seeing themselves as right because they have a superior morality.
Another immoral lie
And a pose...... Conservatives, from studies I've read, are at least as charitable as progressives.
The progressives made a demon of the ridiculously agreeable Mitt Romney.
All their lies did was create President Trump.
Now instead of seeing their error they are doubling down and raising the stakes
We'll see where it takes us
Great post Blob.
I don't think I can engage is this debate from any side on this level but it's been great reading from the sidelines.
I'm keen to hear the rebuttal.
zen the rebuttal is in every news outlet except a few right wing propaganda units like Breitbart. There is not much point providing links to support the arguments if they are either unread or dismissed out of hand because they are published by such disreputable organisations as NYT, New Yorker, Guardian, Fairfax, ABC etc. I posted a link to a series of podcasts that detail the evidence against Trump in elaborate, well referenced detail. We know that there are Russian trolls active on Australian sites with the sole objective of increasing discontent any way they can, so I prefer not to continue discussions involving individuals who do not consider the evidence.
BB - Please tell you’re not suggesting Blob is a Russian troll because he’s disagreeing with you .
Wait ....yes , I can picture him sitting on a rough hewn stool . Shirtless and wearing ill fitting pants in an open field beside a grey sea with a pebble beach . A weak Northern hemisphere sun warming his luminously white skin . Skoling from a vodka bottle as he swipes at clouds of midges and bashes away at a Commodore 64 that he purchased from a family of gypsys whose wagon is now rolling away into the distant background. Cussing and drinking , typing furiously in an attempt to bring down the imperialist dogs of the West one surf forecasting site at a time.
Jebus, you throw the bait out and BANG someone is bound to swallow it. Easier than fishing for flathead!
I suppose BB and I don't contribute much because I pay very little attention to it overall, but what I will say is that, I'm kinda in agreeance with the above. For the record but not knowing the man, Trump seems like a bit of a tool. Having said that, the media (what I read anyway) seems absolutely relentless in tearing down Trump based on what I mostly interpret as conjecture and speculation. If Trump was truly guilty of what he is constantly accused of, surely he would have been impeached by now? Nobody has come up with one shred of hard evidence to put him away. Or at the very least put the wheels of impeachment in motion. It's constantly a case of what-ifs, rumours and innuendo, Nothing concrete.
Also, it is very rare to read how under Trump, America is doing pretty well at the moment- their economy is booming as evidenced by the soaring US dollar, unemployment is down, business confidence is up, wage increases are happening allbeit on a state level and you could almost argue that the world has stabilised a little in terms of peace.
I think everybody here makes very valid points but I have to single out Blob who in pretty one-sided argument, carries himself pretty well.
You do a bit of fishing do you Guy ?
I remember when BB accused me of being a Russian troll. I was furious . Sitting there in my concrete basement muttering “ yob vas “ to myself as I clenched my fists. My cover blown , knowing it was only a matter of time before I was relocated to a work camp in Siberia.
Trump would have been out of office within weeks without Republican control of both houses. It is not that a majority of Republicans were happy to see him elected, rather he was seen correctly as an ignorant boorish fool, but one who created a rare opportunity. For a party to control both houses and the Presidency is rare but when that comes with an opportunity to entrench a conservative Supreme Court for several decades, they would have worked with Stalin or Pol Pot to get that!
Used to fish all the time and should do again someday. I like the idea of that.
On the suspected Bolshevik in our midst, I did wonder the other day whether Stu at the Swellnet Emporium would know the location of his IP address as here I was thinking he was likely to be a yokel from the bayou. I can see I'm going to have to reread my le Carre books.
........it could have been worse Blowin, at least I knew you were human. For a while I was convinced the forums were under a bot attack.
Did Blindboy and guys miles just skulk off muttering empty curses over their shoulder?
The left are wrong about everything
The Internet Research Agency, Blowin! It is basically a Russian government troll factory and has been tracked hacking its way around the world influencing elections, spreading misinformation. Remember, you can never be paranoid enough. You cannot even imagine what "they" are up to. They being the covert intelligence organisations of east west and all points between.
Not to mention the surfees undying surfers ambassador, aka, the battling nature lover, just, and rightly so too, just upholding the orders of the elected man, the idolized voice, citizen slatts and his pool of aliens.
'How dare you... not our ambling slattso!!!'
'Give him a break! We lurvs ya slattsey!!!! Again!!! In a nutshell!!!'
Donald trump keepin it real
It's like...I feel compelled to reply...but the fact that someone could possibly write those words...clearly demonstrates what a waste of time that would be
I guess people argue the holocaust was made up...the world is flat...climate change is a hoax...
But answering the original question...definitely don't hate him...and still think he may be a slightly more decent human than the alternative at election time...but the fact that in a country of over 160 million people...they came up with those two...
But on the other hand Indo dreaming...in relation to a recent debate...it would appear that some 2900 (former)Puerto ricans had a valid reason to question mr trumps grip on reality...only silence from them
Ha ha Welcome the forum Balance.
I still stick by my post like i said.
"The reason why people voted Trump in though, is because he is not your typical politician.
Even when he spins shit he spins it straight up, no going round in circles using words and language the common man would never use."
That above post was spot on and very well put, 100% agree, best post in this thread by a mile.
And i feel exactly the same as Zenagain
Paul Manafort knows some of Trump's deepest secrets, and now he works for Mueller.
yes guy. this could be interesting.
the saddest part though is that Trump obviously actually enjoys this. its a type of chaos that maybe he's created on purpose. the chaos suits his style of leadership....divide and conquer is old saying i believe.....even reflected in the title of this thread.
No joy in this for Trump happy. Just deeper and deeper into the giant pile of poo.
"If Democrats win control of either chamber, Trump’s legislative agenda would be mostly dead on arrival, meaning no border wall, no cuts to welfare and social security, and no further tax cuts."https://globalnews.ca/news/4446526/2018-us-midterms-explained/amp/
Im sure its just some fake news but the link does factually represent Trumps position. Democracy sure is beautiful, but karma is universal.
But let me guess, the left are wrong about everything....which is another way of saying the right are always right.
Time will tell.
Actions always speak louder than words.
Elites doing what elites do
Hey check out the comments section on the article attached to Blob's link.
Extreme tin hat warning!!
But What do you think of the article itself ?
This is the first of heard of any Google tape but it doesn’t surprise me in the least. If it’s verifiably true of course.
Plenty of people out there - and on here - that will shrug their shoulders at these revelations because Google is working in their favour .....for now.
If the rights favourite news outlet Fox is side stepping it then this smoking gun ain't real smokey. If you follow the link to the tape itself you can read a break down of whats in it.
It all sounds a bit like gobblygook, or is that googleygook?
You are exactly right
...and isn't Guysmiley's hypocrisy and bias starkly defined by his avoidance the thrust of the article for a useless jab at the comments?....wonder if there were any tin hat Russian spy conspiracies mentioned.
What some progressives seem too dim to understand is that while they refuse to engage with any journalism they disagree with, their own echo chamber of left leaning media has completely lost credibility itself.
Ironically, this is what this story is about.... the lamestream media running a protection racket for other activist media....Google
Did you view the tape?
If you did, instead of saying nothing (as usual) why not address what was said by the Google honchos and whether it has any implications for the democratic process?.
Why are you avoiding issues that (as blowin pointe out) should concern all of us.?.
I stopped using Google a long time ago. DuckDuckGo doesn't follow you to the same extent and seems to produce more balanced results. No news outlet is compulsory and all of them lean one way or another. The real tragedy is the way news outlets lead their audience further and further down the path of confirmation bias ......... all the news you WANT to hear. I think there is a very strong argument that this began with Murdoch's print media and became toxic with the growth of Fox News. Some might see it the other way but historically this goes back to the era of the "dirty digger" undermining journalistic standards in the UK in the late sixties.
The tragedy now is that however you frame it the United States is no longer united in any meaningful way. It is divided, not neatly in two on a state by state basis, but right through every community. The potential for serious civil disruption, if not outright civil war is stronger now than any time since probably 1968 and it is probably no coincidence that the dividing lines fall along pretty much the same fault lines; progressive, forward looking policies seeking to integrate minorities and increase social welfare vs backward looking white nationalism, isolationism and sink or swim social policies.
Ahh the democratic process...ain't it grand. The tape was recorded over 2 years ago, and magically turns up 2 months before the mid terms, and even Fox (the right's lap dog) say to treat it with a grain of salt.
As the right who are always right say,.....nothing here, move on! (as long as it's in our direction)
Pretty sure this will die with Trumps ability to overlord once the mid term elections are complete.
How's that Mueller investigation going?
it's biased I'm sure, it's a private company. But whether just because of Google Tape you can now write Google off maybe requires a little more thought. Existing well organized establishments that produce news are always going to return higher Google rank than the fragmented and disorganized Trump support groups. That's just how search engine crawling works in my understanding.
The UK is also a deeply divided country. Brexit favoured by most outside London but by only a tiny minority inside it. Brexit has divided the country, communities and families. Murdoch was big on Brexit, how did that lowlife ever avoid jail in the UK anyway?
Its about 50 days now to the mid terms and Manafort is now singing like a canary with a tray full of fresh seed for Mueller ..... but if you read the related Breitbart (thanks Blob its a great satirical website) article and particularly the comments section he was nothing but Trump's coffee boy. So nothing to worry about, right?
Watched twenty minutes of the hour long tape and I cant understand the uproar. Isn't this just more of the same?
Silicon Valley has long employed people from OS, and they've long championed liberal values, so it's fairly understandable the executive would buck back against a figure who opposes those values.
Whether they rort the system, alter Google search outcomes, for their own ends is the question, but it's a two-decade old question. I didn't hear anything that implicates them in the part I heard. No smoking gun there.
I will investigate attitudes to Brexit thoroughly over the next few weeks Guy. I will be in the UK for three weeks. (shit, that will my longest period out of the water for ....... I can't remember, at least a decade, more likely two!)
Why aren’t you surfing over there ?
I thought about taking a board Blowin for the NE coast around Whitley Bay but decided against it as I will be spending most of the time in Liverpool, Glasgow, London and other non-surfing locations. Dragging a full kit of board, steamer etc just seemed too much hassle for the chance of getting a day or two of waves. Maybe hire some gear if it looks epic.
This little passage seems appropriate to describe what's going on here...
"...Fragmentation and The Reality Crisis. Scott Adams often uses the analogy of two movie screens to explain how the Culture War is processed. Conservative media such as Fox News have a rosy Trumpist perspective, while liberal media such as CNN and MSNBC adopt a virulent anti-Trumpist perspective. Viewers of these networks experience the same reality but watch incompossible interpretations of that reality. Adams’s analogy can be expanded beyond the dichotomous right/left narratives embodied by legacy media. We not only have two movies available to us, we have a Netflix-level variety of viewable material.
Philosopher Jean-François Lyotard described this as “the postmodern condition” in 1979. The postmodern condition is not necessarily one of relativism but one of fragmentation. Lyotard defined postmodernism as “incredulity toward metanarratives”, which are narratives that totalize all knowledge and experience, such as religion, the Enlightenment, and communism. These grand narratives, once broken down, give way to what he calls little narratives.
These little narratives do not necessarily espouse relativism directly, but are localized by their contexts, are ostensibly independent from one another, and have different means of sensemaking. This fragmented array of narratives has caused a reality crisis, for without some semblance of a consensus reality, constructive cooperation becomes extremely difficult. This results in what Lyotard calls a differend, a situation where conflicting parties cannot even agree on the rules for dispute resolution. Moreover, there is lack of agreement on what the conflict even is. Collective understanding problems of what reality is amplify collective action problems of what reality should be....."
Looks like generally a good article too, a little tl:dr. for the moment. Will have to go back to it
"...While the red and blue tribes were certainly far from monolithic, in the current decade any claim to unity is laughable. An establishment leftist who squabbles with the right must contend with mockery from the dirtbag left. Meanwhile, the dirtbag left endures critiques from Social Justice Activists (SJA), who in turn are criticized by the Intellectual Dark Web (IDW). The trench warfare of the old culture war has become an all-out brawl...."
I was in the UK for 4 weeks in late 2016 @BB. Meet up with AU family and friends working in London and elsewhere in the UK. London is very much an international city attracting the best and brightest workers from every corner of the globe. Serous money can be made if you are good. Counties and cities outside London are plus/minus riding the economic times London is and accordingly its easy to map the pro/anti Brexit sentiment. The people I know there say in London its hard to find anyone for Brexit while in cities outside London they can be given a hard time for taking local jobs; jobs the locals aren't qualified nor experienced to do. There is also a growing view people want a 2nd vote. Definitely a two speed economy but its more than that, outside London surprising in the 2000s people can be stubbornly insular to the outside world.
Absolutely loved London and the Devon and Cornwall coasts. You should have a fantastic time.
A virtual global information monopoly that can sway elections without a trace is rabidly progressive and activist.....and it's no problem to some people.
Complain all you like about Murdoch, but we don't have to buy his news...and he has helped both sides depending on how he judges competency......it's hard to argue he was wrong on both Hawk and Howard
Right wing Internet media came about as response to leftist homogeneity. It is not about balance but a necessary counterbalance.
When will I hear a progressive admit the bias of the 'mainstream' media?.
"A virtual global information monopoly that can sway elections without a trace is rabidly progressive and activist"
You're a troll and a half blob, you've got me taking the bait on that one.
It's absolute bullshit.
Then help me out on this
Do you consider Google management progressive in their political orientation?
Your identity politics comes to you via post modernists via Marxists