Submitted by dimitrios10 on Tue, 05/29/2018 - 17:10
I am curious if you guys like DonaldTrump, or do you hate him?
"Many democrat leaders are now calling for the removal of borders altogether."
Who's calling for that?
i wonder how many people died under Clintons attacks vs Bush jnr. was Clinton really any better than the two Bushes that history has him hiding between.
Blob if you want to be taken seriously then provide a link to support your assertion that Obama removed children from their parents. At this stage I think that you are just some sort of troll. You never finish a discussion, just hop to some new topic from the right wing agenda. So provide the link if you want a response.
....... Oh and one for Stu's question would be good too. Looking forward to that one. .......
Blindboy: You accuse Blob of being a troll. I’m calling you out here as THE resident Swellnet troll. You are using an old propaganda trick used by right wing Nazi Joseph Goebbels, “Accuse those you oppose of that which you are guilty” You using this cunning trick is you trying to shut down Blobs free speech. Bait and switch or Munchhausen's. Communist style. You have a dark soul.
Here's some light from Bix Weir on the reset.
Curses! Quint has exposed my cunning plan to use the Swellnet forums to corrupt our vulnerable Aussie youth to my distorted communistic views, sorry or was that Nazi propaganda. Never mind, Nazi, communist, all the same, they are bad and you shouldn't listen to them children. Go straight to the surf report!
@West of Lake
BTW. on the wall thing, we all kind of see it as a joke, but there is a TV show (series) i started watching last week and man it's an eye opener.
They have got huge problems they basically don't have a border, you can even drive from Mexico to USA in the desert, in some areas they have created fencing out of railway line to stop cars driving directly into USA and in some areas near built up towns they already have big walls.
I think in reality they really are going to have to create wall or buffer zone of some type, although you would think it would have to be combined with a patrolled exclusion area and other tech.
For further reference and common sense.
General Social issues: Rita Panahi & Lauren Southern
Indigenous issues: Jacinta Price and Anthony Dillion
Gender: Debra Soh.
Islam: Armin Navabi & Brigitte Gabriel
Population: Dick Smith
You don't need all those looney bin references to make this point quint. Here's the abc (looney to some) showing the words coming straight out of the alternative president's mouth. And she'd be not alone, there's heaps of examples
"...In a talk to a Brazilian bank in 2013, she said her "dream" is "a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders" and asked her audience to think of what doubling American trade with Latin America "would mean for everybody in this room"....
It appears they've learnt that the term "open borders" may be a little extreme for your average punter, so now they"ve toned it down to "Abolish ICE". Which hides their intent, and idealism, a little, but means much the same.
Here's some left wing nut job sites telling the democrats to tone it down re. Immigration, .....again....and again, please, a little more....seems to fall on deaf ears....
The Lesson Democrats Have Yet to Learn on Immigration
And, how the democrats ended up in this ridiculous position. Not sure anyone is up for listening or reflecting though...
How the Democrats Lost Their Way on Immigration
And, another left wing site, basically tying themselves in knots trying to distance obama's child removal actions from trump's. When really they're pretty much splitting hairs.
And this little gem exposes the media of all stripes for being the masters of misinformation that they are. Its no wonder no one believes anything anymore, and everyone just shuts down to unfamiliar information
"....The federal government had a system to deal with unaccompanied kids, but it was underfunded and overloaded even before the 2014 “surge” — and quickly got backed up. As a result, Border Patrol ended up holding kids for days beyond the 72 hours they were legally supposed to, and the government had to spin up temporary holding shelters for children that looked a lot like jails. Some of the pictures of these sites went viral again in 2018, with people either misidentifying them as pictures of children separated from their parents under Trump or as proof that Trump’s policy was identical to Obama’s. Neither is true...."
....neither is true...but pretty bloody close!
Obama's actions are in the photos. As to misidentifying the photos, that was the democrat press that was doing the misidentifying. They used the footage against trump in the news, then it turned out the footage was archive, from obama!
Vox doing their best to spin it their way....nice try, but no cigar....
sypkan, the Vox link destroys the argument that Obama separated children from their parents in much the same way as Trump. How you see it as spin is beyond me .... as many things are no doubt. Try it again using words of one syllable and I will try to follow your argument.
In the case of the "open borders" claim this is seriously out of context and implies a broad policy of allowing anyone to enter as they pleased. What was actually stated, as an ideal rather than a policy, was the concept of an American Union similar to the EU. It is totally unsurprising that anyone would suggest this as a future possibility given the success of the EU in reducing conflict and raising living standards. Those who want to point to lost jobs miss the point that on balance, more jobs have been created. It is worth remembering that the real problems of job loss in specific industries in the US are mainly the result of poor social policy and inadequate investment in education ........ look at The Guardian photos of teachers in their 2nd jobs. The reality which is hard to stomach for isolationists is that globalisation has lifted hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people out of deep poverty. Were their costs? Yes, were these unevenly distributed, of course. The real issue is that governments did not support the communities where this happened. It is that uniquely, absolutely moronic American notion of standing or falling entirely by your own efforts. One of the great ironies is that the the discontent that led to Trump's election is largely traceable to the policies of his own party.
"....It’s encouraging to hear that globally a billion have been “lifted out of poverty”. You might imagine them raising happy families in leafy suburbs. But in fact, this simply means they earn at least $1.90 a day. Many live in slums, working 12-hour shifts in crowded factories, exposed to injury and abuse, for which they may have sacrificed homelands, communities and traditions.
You may also ask what it was that “lifted” them. This makes it sound like some benevolent agency – such as capitalism, or western aid – swooped in and rescued them. But they’re the ones doing the work. It just makes us feel better to see the profits of the rich as reward for altruism.
By implication, this is the version of Dickensian England other peoples must pass through on their journey to western-style middle-class prosperity. But is that really where they’re going?
A lot of people seem kind of tired with this 'Dickensian' model of lifting crew out of poverty, especially when a big part of it is the botton of western society doing the'lifting'. A component of this 'lifting' is people agreeing to the selling out of their childrens future's in the global real estate pyramid scheme.
This is only compounded by this Dickensian model transposing Dickensian style environment problems on the third world as a rite of passage. Doesn't seem real well thought out.
Yeh I'm exaggerating my truth, just as the vox was, but the point stands. Obama locked up kids as as well. Yes the settings and triggers were different, as you'd expect, but it appears he has done the same.
I agree completely with what you say about what rising out of poverty actually means. If you think that it is unfair for us to benefit, as we do to a huge extent, from their under valued labour, then surely you would support free trade and the free movement of people. As long as money and goods can move freely where people cannot the kind of exploitation you describe will continue. It is a long term project that has been set back by Trump's short sighted policies and the idiotic Brexiteers in the UK.
"idiotic Brexiteers in the UK."
Thoughts on this vid BB, especially at 1.55?
And from 6.05?
Do you support open borders , BB ?
Blowin, I'm sure you'll relate to the above vid as well.
Especially in light of what you just said on What's What.
I’ll check it out .
But they still won’t get it .
Exclusion is too addictive a drug . Just watch mean girls.
It's so spot on.
Open borders Blowin? Somewhere down the track. The only way there will ever be an end to the virtual slavery in the countries that produce our luxury goods is when people can move as easily as goods and money. Idealistic, for sure. Practical, not in the immediate future but it is worth moving towards.
The video was a pretty standard analysis of left wing faults. I am probably guilty of some, well most, OK then all of them. But he also talked about how identity politics puts everyone in silos so they can't actually communicate, which is true of just about everywhere but here. So enjoy this rare opportunity to engage robustly with those of different opinions.
Some intelligent, civilised and interesting discourse in these recent threads - varying views all without acrimony, foul language or bitterness - yep, can be done Crypto. Borderless world new internationalism is a noble idea but fraught with obstacles and incredibly complex in real terms. On a local level, it's also sad, as covered extensively in The Australian over the last year or more, when respected African community leaders in Victoria find and report that white Australians in inner Melbourne - educated, very left leaning green voters who sing the praises of cultural diversity with gusto, and the need for more, but concomitantly rip their children out of local schools as the racial component tips towards larger numbers of people of colour. The hypocrisy from that supposedly social justice committed cohort is astounding.
Yeah 100% agree discussions like this are so much better when done in a civil manner without the name calling and insulting and excessive use of swearing.
Cheers Indo. I think you're often really quite gutsy in putting your views out there in different forums with solid conviction to challenge what is often a hostile exchange. More people would partake if some decent forum norms were firmly entrenched. I have no truck with the odd well placed swear word - can be hilarious and pertinent - but not the targeted bitter riposte gutter language that puts many off.
Fuck off you two little wankers.
Im taking Cryptos above comment as more of poke in the ribs humorous stir this time, actually made me laugh.
Cheers, Crypto . . . don't forget your Mirtazepine now.
Decent forum norms are for the decent normal forums that I don’t bother contributing due to the fact that they’re boring as batshit.
I said boring as batshit Lifty , not crazy as a shithouse rat. So don’t think you’ve gotten a mention.
Wow, that's too cool for school hip!
Irreverence isn’t a bad thing.
Don’t stop posting Spuddyjack and don’t be put off by the courseness of some exchanges. Surfers are typically attracted to the wild side . Some surfer’s experiences are a bit wilder than the norm and so in turn are their mode of expression. Embrace the diversity.
Let the language stay salty too.
Thanks. Absolutely fair comment Blowin and agreed - I also value the diversity. Let the great world spin - there's a lot of good rigorous debate and argy bargy throughout the forums.
It's already basically a borderless world if your big business. Basically the reverse of how things worked when Adam Smith wrote The Wealth of Nations. Capital was static and labour was mobile. Now capital is mobile and plays static labour forces of again each other in an economic race to the bottom.
Trump legend status.
IF im not surfing im racing
The absolute hypocrisy of the left over Supreme Court nominations.http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2018-07-11.html
The fuckstick going to cost the Australian economy $36 billion.
..... and while I'm here sure the US economy is growing and unemployment is improving but is anyone worried about the US ballooning national debt caused by those tax cuts he gave big business and himself?
"I think that immigration should be safe. I think that we should grant people a safe and documented right of passage. Republicans try all these scare tactics. And they go ‘Oh, open borders.’ Because they’re trying to incite fear. But what we really need to do is demilitarize a lot of what’s going on in terms of the detention of people, which has been happening for a very long time by the way.
So I think that when we talk about replacing it with a system, we talk about having a system that is safe, that documents people effectively, that is also not rooted in the discrimination that our immigration system was initially built on.
Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
She is calling for illegal immigrants to be made legal and given a RIGHT to cross the border and enter the US. That opens the border by any commonsense definition.
You have it backwards.
An improving economy and employment tend to increase government revenue, they don't increase debt.
Whether you agree or not, many economists see tax cuts as a good way to stimulate the economy.
Debt is caused by many factors....like the welfare you have to pay the unemployed....or other spending.....especially the 'big government' approach rejected by conservatives and embraced by socialists.
Obama created more debt than all the other presidents before him.
I agree, the US debt is a potential catastrophe, but don't blame Trump as if he is worse than the democrats that are calling for free everything.
Yes Obama separated families. Trump has only done a better job of deterring illegal border crossings.
The old trickle down economic theory lie of the reactionaries.
Discredited and making once great countries economically, socially and morally bankrupt for the last 3 decades.
Afraid its your side of ultra right politics that spends and cuts taxes Blob ...
Theres that word again "Ultra Right" I'm not that political savvy, but i still know none of those governments in anyway could be considered "Ultra right" implying even more extreme than centre right, right wing, or far right.
@ Blob - by providing a link to an Ann Coulter blurb only confirms where your beliefs lie. Do you really think she has any credibility at all? She was quoted after 911 as saying " Lets invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to christianity". She is the epitome of hypocrisy
I don't think you can have it both ways: tax cuts for the big end of town and prosperity for the workers. Governments have tried that for 40 years and where has it got us? All it enables is money to continually leave the system and inequality - the cause of so many social ills - to grow. Even the BCA can't point to a single country where trickle down has led to wage growth or improved worker conditions.
The two are antithetical and, after four failed decades, any politician who still proposes both should be seen for what they are: a mouthpiece for money with no interest in improving social problems.
In terms of debt it appears that there is no ceiling. Money keeps getting created out of thin air and there is no way it can ever be repaid . Where does it end?
As for trickle down economic policy That has been well and truly proven that any wealth distribution gets funnelled straight to the top 1%. The bottom line is that economists know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
An interesting video re. immigration. Its about gumballs, so its a bit junkfood, but interesting.
Interesting source too
"..... and while I'm here sure the US economy is growing and unemployment is improving but is anyone worried about the US ballooning national debt caused by those tax cuts he gave big business and himself?"
This is the real disaster of trump that doesn't get nearly enough coverage. Probably a minor catastrophe in the making. Or possibly even, the last gasp of a dying empire.
But there is little argument coming from the democrats. Probably because they have no economic argument to make.
But they could try a little harder
surprisingly funny and interesting. good post (Andym's post above)
I know you love your google searches. Suggest your google ultra right definition.
"........ but i still know none of those governments in anyway could be considered "Ultra right" implying even more extreme than centre right, right wing, or far right".
You question the use of the term "ultra right" but seem to accept the term "far right" ..... ok, lets run with far right then.
Definition: "The far right or extreme right is a political label used to identify parties and movements based on fascist, racist and/or extremely reactionary ideologies. Officially those on the far right embrace the concept of the "inequality of outcome", meaning that one group is naturally better than another.Jun 26, 2018
Far right - RationalWikihttps://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Far_right"
Is this what you mean when you use the term "far right"?
So you would be an ultra leftist progressive who is against debt and tax cuts intended to stimulate the economy
Is Obama an ultra right reactionary?.
Obama continued Bush's tax cuts to the tune of $858 billion
1/ Comparing the debt of various presidents is complex and ....
2/ we should all be sceptical of the partisan (lying) information sources that confirm our own bias
Your chart is misleading.
In raw terms
Obama Jan. 20 2009 $10.626 trillion debt
Obama Jan 20 2017 $19.947 trillion debt
Obama also increased military spending about $800 billion per year.
"All presidents can employ a sleight of hand to reduce the appearance of the deficit. They can borrow from federal retirement funds. For example, the Social Security Trust Fund has run a surplus since 1987........The president can reduce the deficit by spending these funds instead of issuing new Treasurys. As a result, Obama added $8.588 trillion to the debt."
Your political bias is misplaced on debt. Both sides increase debt.
I am against right wing and left wing politicians increasing debt
I like free markets because they work. I dislike welfare for business and wasteful welfare for everyone else.
Your bias against tax cuts as stimulus is selective and illogical.
Sometimes it works, sometimes not , but we are not getting poorer we have ALL gotten richer.
Venezuela has gotten poorer....as in oil rich, socialist and starving....with (unlike Trump) real dictators.
Do you agree that the standard of living of the poor has increased over the last five decades?.
It has....and that wasn't by socialism.
All our socialism is paid for by.....capitalism.
The source of my debt quotehttps://www.thebalance.com/national-debt-under-obama-3306293
ha ha I did actually do a google search earlier yesterday for "Ultra right" before i posted, and it came up with no real results, but "Ultra" basically means extreme.
I just think it's funny because you are just trying to make current moderate right wing parties sound even more right wing than they are, when in reality todays right wing parties are pretty mellow in their views.
I also googled Ultra left and got hits
"Ultra-left is used to label positions that are adopted without taking notice of the current situation or of the consequences which would result from following a proposed course."
I think that perfectly describes the Greens party. (often idealistic but not realistic, policy generally based on emotion without considering the possible true ramifications)
Probably the best example of that is their policy on boat arrivals/border control which Labor tried to please them on and we saw how that experiment went and quickly back flipped on with completely different policy before everything snowballed.
The funny thing about guysmiley is he will put everything and anyone on this political spectrum....except himself...
Occassionally he goes into a spiel about his conservative friends, and how he's open to all ideas, but never pins himself down.
Here's a clue smileyguy. If you keep putting everyone and everything way way over there, you're probably way way over there...on the other side.
It cracks me up that people of the left won't even 'identify' themselves as of the left. Helen razer bagged hanson young about it. I know it was once hard to admit being socialist, but now it seems that ambiguous cop out word 'liberal' appears to be an offensive term for those of the left as well.
Seriously, what do you guys call yourselves?