Do you like or hate Donald Trump, and why?
In the words of Ron Burgundy " Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand fast!"
@Blob
Don't be put off by the negative words i like your post they give another perspective on this topic that is normally missing.
The blowindo, blab, klan boys are high speed, out of control bullshitters for sure!!!! Implodin' outa the 'red mist'... again!!
HAHAHA nothing like a bit of no education, no evidence, 'intermediate', 'expert',
'oye meeee part time googled dunce plumber recon's aaayyye mmmaaayyyte' bullshit to give another perspective but... in a nut shell!!!! Again!!!
By the way indoblown, while ya swillnut bullshittin'.... again... swillnut bullshit ya way out of this... again... in a nutshell... Take the foot off the pedal of ya gopher, take cover, and pull over to the kerb for this lot, that guy... again!!!! Doozy alert... again... in a nut shell!!!!
'Was that one of the questions in your electrician apprenticeship indoblown, or didn’t you bother doing an apprenticeship? Did you just decide that the exams were a waste of time and that you were an intermediate expert electrician very early on? Do you think that you serve any purpose, when anyone at all could quickly do a quick swillnut google and realise that you were educated stupidly, and that your trainers, examiners and other electricians are just idiots who don’t understand electrical and all other inter galactic issues correctly? Is that why you melted down when you were in that horrendous situation when you were stoned and couldn’t pay your rego? In a nutshell.'
'indoblown said:
'then fine, call me racist'
You racist redneck indoblown.
yeah blob don't be put off, you undies stain, i also like your posts because you play the important role of making other little twerps here look 1/2 sensible.
Keep it down please.
Hello freinds....as if the blobinator would give up.....good call that.
I reckon weak and wrong people stoop to personal attack when one is on the right track, it eats them up......so gratifying.
But do you compassionate SJWs think that personal attacks and bigotry help your case?
When you decide to go low rather than defend you position it indicates You are being beaten on substance.
Very interesting comment on abortion Indo...but I wonder how anyone can be undecided about killing a child being ok as long as it's before the first breath....if that's what you meant to say....
.....but if anyone is against that cut off what criteria decides when it is OK?
.....and in the absence of agreed fact regarding the date the unborn become people how can we draw the line of life and death?
Any sensible debate on abortion is impossible unless you can determine when an unborn child becomes a human
No need to bring bigoted religion bating into it...plenty of atheists see it as a human rights issue.
Abortion is a good, a bad or a neutral.
That we have laws banning it indicates we see it as a bad.
We may see it as less bad than the cost to the mother of giving birth, but it's still a bad, and effectively making it without control is repugnant hypocrisy.
Personally I'm strongly against murder, so since every unborn child is totally unique and very quickly, perhaps instantly, human, to me abortion is like murder......so the negative impact on the mother would have to be extreme to justify it.
Equating abortion with murder in the US has resulted in the murder of people working in abortion clinics. Defining a point where the foetus becomes human will always be controversial and obviously earlier is better. This is more likely to happen where abortion is a recognized right. As an aside legalizing abortion and maki g it easy available usually results in a significant drop in the crime rate 20 years later. Children who are wanted being less likely to go astray.
If you want to consider the ethics of abortion I think you need to factor in the degree of human suffering produced by not allowing abortion. In the first instance women are forced to take a path in life they did not choose. In the second unwanted children are at much greater risk of abuse and neglect. And in the third, as stated above, unwanted children are significantly more likely to commit crimes, causing suffering to other people.
"Any sensible debate on abortion is impossible .... " when someone describes it as ".. protecting the progressive High Mass of abortion".
It was legalised a long time ago so get over it, its not up to debate.
You sure it's not up for debate?
It seems the left deeming anything and everything "not up for debate" has caused a whole lot of other problems.
Problems that now really need debate....
Question for you guysmiley, or blindboy, or stunet, anybody and everybody....
Do you agree with "...ripping babies out of vaginas in the ninth month..."?
Silly statement, trump was clearly exaggerating.... as he does...they're actually ripping babies out of vaginas in the eighth month. One of his more subtle exaggerations.
But the question stands. Do you agree with eighth month abortions? Or just late term abortions more generally?
I don't see this as a left / right issue at all, it just happens that the more conservative political and religious groups still see it as a live issue. I would have thought moderate thinkers across the political spectrum would see it as rightly settled.
I've got to point out the irony here of a predominating male dominated forum/website discussing an issue, and in moralistic terms, that directly effects women. Swellnet forum topics mirroring real life, would have thought that?
You avoided the question
8th month?
"...I've got to point out the irony here of a predominating male dominated forum/website discussing an issue, and in moralistic terms, that directly effects women. Swellnet forum topics mirroring real life, would have thought that?"
Ahh that old trope. Yes men shouldn't tell women what to do with their bodies. But I'm pretty sure they can have an opinion. Women seem to have an opinion on everything male!
NYT see it asa left right issue
". I understand that our donors (though not necessarily our voters) want to preserve a woman’s right to choose through all nine months of her pregnancy. But do we want late-term abortion so much that we are willing to tolerate President Trump? Do we want it so much that we give up our chance at congressional majorities? Do we want it so much that we see our agendas on poverty, immigration, income equality and racial justice thwarted and defeated?"
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/01/opinion/abortion-democrats-compromise...
What do I think? I think there would be very few women who wouldn't agonise greatly over the decision and I'm not going to moralise on the side over what she should do, its not my business and if its legal that's the end of it.
What annoys me is the moralistic high ground that certain people preach from regarding life and death, yet these same people are the ones who most likely support the death penalty, and the oft devastating militaristic invasion of foreign countries resulting in the death of hundreds of thousands of conscious men, women, and children.
One thing for sure is that the medieval thought forms regarding abortion are steadily dying out as evidenced by the once conservative Ireland voting to allow abortion, and even make it free.
Conservatism has long out lived its usefullness ( not sure what that was) and should be sent back to where it belongs. The dark ages.
I think this debate just mirrors refugees/immigration. Where the left just flat out refuses to engage the topic.
Look how that turned out...
And just like refugees/immigration, technology has changed the dynamics soooo much it's now screaming for debate.
When you can now keep a premmy alive from 20 weeks and there's people wanting abortions at god knows what week late in their pregnancy questions have to be asked.
As the NYT article suggests, who's agenda (and at what cost), is this no debate stance serving?
The arrogance of we will not even engage is just startling.
..... westofthehlake beat me too it.
.... I'll add, these same conservative forces in the US would mostly defend gun ownership notwithstanding the 10's of thousands that suffer each year and equally they would be active supporters of the death penalty in the the US prison system. Before we start discussing US foreign policy and its illegal wars.
..... so it seems not every "life" is equal.
Wow.
Lifty knows Clam, the guy who used to post on here as Caml.
I never claimed to know him. In fact I’ve discussed this with him on Swellnet on this thread - https://www.swellnet.com/forums/wax/253686
When I asked Clam if I might have known him I hadn’t realised that he was Caml. I thought he might have been a guy I know from the South coast of WA.
Which is why I asked him if he was from the South Coast of WA ....get it ?
Comprehension ain’t your strong point is it Lifty ?
Blind boy
Dont you see the lack of logic in your statement?
It is illogical to bemoan the killing of a few as you remain blasé about the killing of millions.
If you can't prove abortion is not murder, how can you, being a sincere defender of the weak, accept INDUSTRIAL SCALE destruction of human life?.
Do you know why they ban information about, and images of abortion from outside clinics?.....because the graphic horror of ONLY being informed of it is too painful for our immoral, head in the sand, generation.
We can't even look at what we make the unborn bear.
Grotesque hypocrisy.
Elevating the imaginary rights of the mother to kill over the right to live is obscene.....unless, in the very rare situation where her mental or physical life is truly at stake.
Im sure future generations will look back at our moral failing in the same way we look back at those average folk who supported the slave trade or the Nazi persecutions.
Would you have supported slavery?
Would you have been convinced Jews were less human.
Would you have just said 'its all too complex'?
To make a logical argument you must first do what no pro choicer seem able to do...... define when the unborn become worthy of rights.
Our legislators try...its arbitrary, and they are all over the shop.
We go to incredible efforts to save a premature BABY in one room while nearby we deliberately end the life of others.
Some nurses have been destroyed by having to do both, thing that we just talk about.
We charge the killers of the unborn with murder while making abortionist rich.
We argue about the legality of killing the aborted foetus that survives an abortion....
We are culpable in one of history's great shames.
If we cannot make even the most basic determination then we should refrain from acting as though we can.....as in deciding it's ok killing human beings cause we can't work out if they are human beings.
Tell you what....they are something...and deserve protection.
What SJW passion can come anywhere near the scale of this ?....only genocide.
Scientific progress is constantly pushing the humanity of the unborn earlier and earlier.
The 'only a lump of tissue' excuses have been dropped as callous wishful thinking.
Evil, in fact.
If we could delete all our cultural conditioning, sexist ideologies, groupthink comfort, lazy selfishness, our own sexual interest, our own guilty consciences and see this.... if we could....through innocent eyes.
We'd see It's bad.
It's horrifyingly bad.
Guysmiley
Guy, Guy, Guy.....your arguments, like Blinboys 'kill them in the womb to help the crime rate' inanity are a gift.
'Legalised long ago, not up for debate'
Wrong.
It's illegal.
And It's at the centre of an enormous debate you are contributing to yourself.
.....like I said....a gift.
"Do you agree with "...ripping babies out of vaginas in the ninth month..."?
BS question isn't it.
Really naive to be sucked in by such language.
I think everyone here would believe all life is precious but the circumstances to terminate are many and valid not just the pregnancy term.
The decision to end a love one's life by throwing the switch is another circumstance that can be valid.
Guysmiley
Men can't talk about abortion huh?
Another gift
Men are both fathers of living unborn children...
and they were once in peril of dying in the womb themselves....
......that's a fair degree of fully invested interest.
As usual, wrong, wrong wrong....about everything
I reckon it makes more sense that anyone making a comment should admit any conflict of interest, .....as in any involvement in an abortion themselves or if they have seen the development and birth of their own child.
To me opinions are often about selfishness....emotional not logical.....and I admire people who can make mistakes and then face up to them.
Sypkan
I once asked a twenty something year old university feminist why she thought it was ok to kill a baby the day before delivery but not the day after.
She got angry and sorta sneered 'that's a grubby question' as she turned and walked away to avoid me.
Brain deadened, immoral but self righteous grubs.
Technology has changed the whole game.
From saving premmys to knowing what's actually going on in the womb at early stages. If - often with the aid of that technology - you can't make a reasonable decision, at a reasonable month, you don't deserve that privilege frankly.
There's heaps of democrat women don't believe in late term abortion, for a reason...
The question is... Who is this somewhat extreme late term position serving?
A purists' absolutist position, void of nuance.
Is it outdated?
Has it festered away as an issue because of the usual attempts (see above) to shut down any conversation whatsoever?
I'll answer the last one myself....yep
Guysmiley
'moderate thinkers' .....you self define as moderate without citing freely available stats that show high opposition to late term abortion....that means not moderate ...derrr
You do this after ignoring the question of when an unborn child may have rights.
You avoid by leapfrogging what you can't deal with.
...and an appeal to concensus is no argument in logic....Hitler had a pretty good approval rating.
'Not my business'
You say this after making plenty of comments.....make up your mind.
Legal?
Stop cherry picking.....there is a wide range of laws regarding abortion in all countries, and laws are modified all the time
Again, you are avoiding defending what you already talked about by saying there is nothing to talk about.
Lame....and wrong wrong wrong on every count.
I focus
You call BS but do not go anywhere near justifying your call.....which is real BS
You say the circumstances to terminate are many and valid
Simple question....
Do you believe there are any circumstances where an abortion is not valid?
And don't get tricky by muddying already murky water with euthanasia
Sypkan
Yes.
All good points
Technology is showing the unborn baby to be a baby earlier and earlier
But.....have you ever seen the progress of a foetal kangaroo to the pouch?
SJWs hate cruelty to animals but I would see little to no difference between killing an adult kangaroo and killing that motivated little miracle.
This whole debate is a crock...it's too simple.
Argue with this female who survived being aborted
https://m.
Argue with a woman who laughed about abortions till she had her tenth
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/angie-was-laughing-before-her-ninth-ab...
Indo dreaming
Thank you
I'm not put off by negativity.
Nothing as motivating as when the other team play like grubs
Grubs are always losers because the stands and even their own supporters are embarrassed for them
Let's play a game......
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ben+shapiro+on+abortion&t=ipad&ia=videos&iax=v...
...and westofthelake and guy smiley
Trying to inject the death penalty and guns the abortion debate is...
Irrational....different issues completely
Political.... It's less left/right political than those issues
Illogical ....two wrongs don't make a right
Inept....a transparent attempt to muddy the water with extraneous arguments
TLAWAE
Intersting to note that in the US it is the religious types that embrace abortion the most, yet are the most vocally opposed.
"Abortion is common among religiously identified women. According to the Guttmacher Institute, "more than 7 in 10 U.S. women obtaining an abortion report a religious affiliation (37% protestant, 28% Catholic, and 7% other), and 25% attend religious services at least once a month. The abortion rate for protestant women is 15 per 1,000 women, while Catholic women have a slightly higher rate, 22 per 1,000."
Perhaps if the roman catholic church supported contraception rather than viewing it as "intrinsically evil" in itself, regardless of the consequences, they might actually be in a position to make judgement. Catholics are only permitted to use natural methods of birth control.( just pull out, what could go wrong) ... The Church teaches that using artificial contraception is wrong because: it is against 'natural law'Aug 3, 2009.
The hypocrisy of religious belief knows no bounds.
Blob, i trust you and Cory had a nice sleepover and shared many fruitful hours of bible study. Your congregation must be so proud of your zealot like efforts to educate us sinners.
Blob you can out BS me any day and your black and white views are total BS.
life/world is not binary.
Of course there are valid reasons for not aborting as there are for aborting life starts at fertilization and ends when the pulse stops.
ah I'm in a mellow mood, the sun is shining, the swell is up, I've had a ripper surf on my singlefin and I've managed to drag up an early picture of blob, when he was a happy lad with lots of warmth and heart, that's him in the middle with his mom and pa
Blob you have some valid points but basing your case, as you seem to do, entirely on late term abortions weakens your argument. If you claim that human life begins at fertilisation then nature itself is the greatest murderer as most zygotes and early stage embryos spontaneously abort.
To grant an early stage foetus the same status as a live birth is a choice made on emotional or religious grounds. I can understand that position when it is made by a woman considering her own circumstances but to make it law though is unreasonable. A foetus is not a miniature human. Even at birth the human brain is massively under-developed compared to other mammals. To imply that an early stage foetus has sufficient consciousness to be considered fully human is to ignore the anatomical evidence. Difficult cases make bad law, so to base your argument on the fact that in extreme cases the foetus could have survived if treated as premature doesn't convince. No-one thinks abortion is a good idea but most agree that it is frequently better for all concerned, as I outlined above, than the alternative.
@WestofLake
Funny you say that, i was thinking something similar yesterday.
I was thinking how weird it that those that are against Death Penalty generally support Abortion.
Happy to kill an innocent life before it's even had a chance to really live, while opposed to ending one that has often taken other lives and is often pure evil.
Personally I don't have a black and white view on either issue, i think Abortion has it's place in very early stages especially for rape victims etc, but do think there should be a limit on how many times it can be done (shouldn't be a form of contraception) or be something that is too easy accessible.
I also think the death penalty should have it's place in a justice system, but only very rarely used for the very worst crimes, repeat murderers, serial rapist, serial killers, serial pedifials gunman type killings, terrorist who kill large numbers of people etc.
There are many reasons for opposing the death penalty that do not directly depend on the value of human life. The most significant of these is that courts make mistakes. In both the US and the UK there are well established cases of this. (Google "Rillington Place murders"). Another argument is that it damages those who have to carry it out, causing depression and in a number of cases, suicide.
Cheers, Blob. It's informative to get a snap-shot from the ground of a certain kind of thinking in the US.
It may seem alien to us here but it's interesting in its fashion.
Have you ever been to Australia?
@Blindboy
Hence one reason why it should only be used sparingly for the type of crimes mentioned, not just one off murder cases.
Westofthelake
Lies, damned lies, and statistics
Mark Twain
You need to, on a per capita basis, account for social disadvantage and race to qualify the claims you borrow from an abortion lobby group.
Black women are as much as five times more likely to have an abortion, and socially disadvantaged women have more abortions.....they are also more religious.
As usual you cannot mount a rational argument, but need to follow your well worn path of diversion and juvenile mockery.
I focus
So answer the question then.
When is it not valid for a woman to obtain an abortion?
And I think you will find that science and the vast majority of people believe life starts at conception and ends when the pulse stops.
Guy smiley
Funny picture
I reckon atheists that cannot stop mocking and attacking religion have a deep seated insecurity that compels them to such distasteful behaviour.
What's eating you buddy?
Just saying.
And didya know Christians get more eternal blessings when they are persecuted for their faith?
So thanks heaps.
Blindboy
So nature justifies abortion because nature causes the most abortions huh?.
Where do you get this stuff?
You may wish it so but I haven't based my case on late term abortions.
Wrong again.
Try reading the w.o.r.d.s.
Late term abortions are opposed by most people because they are extremely abhorrent.
I've made the case that without defining the rights of the unborn and when those rights begin you cannot have a logical pro abortion argument.
You say a foetus isn't a baby but fail to say at what point it becomes one.
If as you say, abortion is frequently better for all concerned, please explain how it is ever better for the one aborted.
Q : Which is more appealing - eternal blessings or 72 virgins ?
Both good options.
Indo,
You say,
"I was thinking how weird it that those that are against Death Penalty generally support Abortion."
You got me there Indo.
But I think your next sentence is both a stretch of the bow and simplistic.
"Happy to kill an innocent life before it's even had a chance to really live, while opposed to ending one that has often taken other lives and is often pure evil."
I dont believe any empathetic human can say they would be "Happy to kill an innocent life.. ..",
ever.
As mentioned above, when does the life of a conscious being actually begin?
Its a very complex and emotional topic thats for sure, and extremes of beliefs produce inflexible attitudes.
Regarding the decision to end a prisoners life due to perceived evil, via execution, I see that blindboy gave a good example of why due to the sometimes questionable machinations of the justice system the use of the death penalty can be flawed.
Personally i think that death penalty is too easy a way out, and for even the most evil of perpetrators justice is best served by being sentenced to life behind bars.
On another level the collective decision to make a law that rules out the death penalty is a sure sign that we aspire to be a more civilized society.
Indo, I admire your support of having all sides of a topic expressed and salute your civilised input into any discussion.
At the least, we can agree to disagree. Cheers.
Blob....
You say: ‘I reckon weak and wrong people stoop to personal attack when one is on the right track, it eats them up..... so gratifying’
And: ‘I reckon atheists that cannot stop mocking and attacking religion have a deep seated insecurity that compels them to such distasteful behaviour’
Now, with you being such an expert and all, is it possible that what ‘you reckon’ is just imaginary and not actually the truth?
As in, you may be wrong? Are you implying you are on the right track? Could this just be an assumption? As in ‘the left is always wrong’?
Now, I’m not a lefty or an athiest - but the majority of mocking and attacking of religion is done by believers of particular religions against other believers of different religions..... What do you reckon ?
Could you also clarify the existence of dinosaurs in relation to your own religious beliefs? As in, do you reckon the Abrahamic religions in all their almighty wisdom just conveniently forgot to mention why ‘god’ imparted ‘his’ version of creation and left out the existence of dinosaurs - they did exist right? And if you want to go all huff and puff again now about abortion etc..... What do you reckon about the history of the Christian faith..... As in the FACT that aside from preaching forgiveness and love and the rest of it, the institution that represents your faith has consistently aligned with and encouraged governments and supported dictators throughout history to commit genocide and participated in illegally invading foreign lands under the guise of doing ‘gods work’ while professing they are right and everyone else is wrong - causing the destruction of various indigenous peoples and their own existing religious beliefs. Christians are guilty of more mass murder, corruption and systematic rape and abuse of children than any other movement/government or body of power.... ever! Is there any truth to this ? Not a personal attack - just unsure if you understand your own accusations to other people about being hypocrites and liars..... Are you right about everything or is it just a case of what ‘you reckon’ ? People used to reckon the earth was flat..... Are you just living out your days of ‘reckoning’? ;) And playing the persecution card of ‘everyone is wrong’ does help justify your ignorance.... But it doesn’t make you right.
"Cheers, Blob. It's informative to get a snap-shot from the ground of a certain kind of thinking in the US.
It may seem alien to us here but it's interesting in its fashion.
Have you ever been to Australia?"
Certainly a snapshot of how crazy US politics can get with such a strong mix of religion and politics which fortunately is rejected here by the mainstream.
Note Blobs "informative insights" word for word are straight out of the far right Republican /alt right / tea party hand book.
Also note the labels continually attached for good and bad, us and them plenty of look over there issues while no mention of wealth distribution increasing for the top .5%.
It has appeal for many.
I am curious if you guys like DonaldTrump, or do you hate him?