Australia - you're standing in it
"Vic Local - Rather than egging on the destruction of our democracy ...
You’re always bleating about how stupid 60 year old brickies should reskill."
Really blowin.
When did I say that? And When did I egg on the destruction of our democracy.
You are such a bullshit artist blowin.
There's a world of difference between crudeness and being funny VL ..... besides you best ask info that question after his recent posts ..... hahaha
Was probably this comment below Vic, the one that paraphrases Joe Hockey and his "just get a job that pays more money".
"people who would rather blame others than retrain or go to university to improve their prospects."
You sly right wing devil you.
Andy M, so let's get this straight. There's absolutely no mention by me of "stupid 60 year old brickies".
Can we just agree that blowin is straw-manning again?
Blowin's comment is clearly an extension of your comment.
You talking about brickies is a strawman.
Laying around in the basement is a long conversation about robot bricklayers if anyone dared go down there.
haha, someone go there... please...
plausable deniability?
either way, it's more about the theme anyway...
and 'strawman'?
...seriously, I thought we'd been through this...
not only does monorail have a mind only capable of one thought process at a time, he has the memory of a goldfish...
No sypkan, it's not about the theme at all. It's about a racist dickhead making up shit I never said. BTW, my first job was a brickies labourer and I worked as a mason for a few years. It's not like I'm ever going to call my mud brothers stupid.
So in other words, go fuck yourself blowin you complete bullshit artist. sypkan, same advice.
Vic, mate, if you can't see the relationship between Blowin's comments and yours, well I'm just going to have to assume that you're being, you know, disingenuous.
Government corruption, in it's natural home, The National party of course.
https://www.michaelwest.com.au/a-barilaro-affair-how-the-barilaros-ended...
AndyM, if you can't see that blowin has made shit up again, there's no hope for you.
How about I make something up about you and then shoot you down with a completely bogus argument. Would that be cool?
You blokes can call me any name under the sun. I'm cool with that. I'm a big boy. What I won't cop, and will never accept, is a fuckstick Pauline Hanson fan attributing quotes to me that I never made, to take the high moral ground. blowin is a dog of a human being. He's nothing more than white racist trash who never debates anything in good faith.
Anyone else sick of the petty name calling? It's getting boring folks.
Happening while there's a lot of quite important stuff going on for how the country moves in the world, too. Blink and you're missing some pretty big stuff.
“Blowin is a dog of a human being. He's nothing more than white racist trash who never debates anything in good faith.”
That’s going straight to the pool room.
But yeah , Andy is onto it.
spell it out for us velocityjohhno...
love your contextual viewpoints
dot points would be nice and suffice...
you know... 'for the non readers' ...and for the braindead and biased... to cut through the ambiguiity
seeing some of it unfold, and seems big big things are indeed afoot...
here's hoping it's just a long awaited correction, ...from us... and not direct provocation...
(not from us)
There’s some pretty scary stuff going down as far as China and Australia is concerned. We are very vulnerable and China appears to be losing its shit. Let’s hope the worst outcome is economic discomfort.
they seem to be pushing for more...
all advantageous domestically no doubt, ...but they're looking a bit suicidal globally... a bit over the top face saving kamakazi like suicidal...
unless they've got something up their sleeve?
or just feeling a bit empowered by 'beijing biden'?
writely or wrongly so...
It was a rash move by SmoKo. The message was a transparent provocation, it wasn't meant for the home population - they can't access Twitter - but was designed to get a response.
That fact alone should've raised questions.
Questions like, maybe we shouldn't give them what they want?
But SmoKo did, which in one sense is understandable, unlike the Twitter account he IS playing to the domestic audience, gotta appear strong, but he seriously overstepped the mark when he demanded an apology.
Flag the issue, show your displeasure, explain why it's not on, but for God's sake don't demand contrition from a country that, for one, has a very different cultural understanding of apologising, and two, is fifty times larger in population and is imposing itself economically and militarily in the region.
That was just flat out dumb and only puts more heat in the room.
We're moving into very dangerous territory and we've got a marketing dolt at the wheel. I hope for all our sakes he's got access to wise counsel and has the humility to listen.
Spot on Stu, we played right into the trap. Better diplomacy would have been to let it play out on Twitter and fade away, without stooping to the slanging match that it has. Because there is no moral authority on this issue.
This is not to say that it needs to go without response. A quick summons for the ambassador and / or issue of a demarche (diplomatic note) would have allowed registration of our displeasure without giving a free kick...
It’s about playing to the domestic political climate more than anything else. Standing up to China polls well.
The issue needed a public response. Scomo comes across as effective as a fly screen nappy but something had to be said .
This is way bigger than the domestic political climate.
The issue needed a response. It's doubtful it needed a public response.
Who did he reach that he couldn't via diplomatic means?
It had everything to do with playing for the home crowd, and it's needlessly escalated a tense situation, a situation that otherwise would've faded from Twitter by now.
"different cultural understanding of apologising" really stu? and "playing to the home crowd" aka speaking up for the population. never picked you as a chamberlain appeaser type. even "ratfucker" Rudd supports his action (and Wong who I rate)
Are you aware that the Chinese trade minister isn’t even answering his phone to discuss the ( illegal ) trade disputes which are impacting Australia ?
Diplomacy is basically dead. Diplomacy is an exercise in which two parties attempt to find common ground and mend relationships. China no longer has any interest in this type of activity.
I reckon this is Xi’s personality writ large. It’s useful for establishing the truth of his beliefs but the direction it’s headed is not somewhere I really want to explore.
China is stumbling economically. They’ve got a massive population without food , energy or resource security. Australia has a tiny population with everything they need just waiting to be taken. Scary shit.
Nice try, LL.
Blockheaded nuance and a pissweak argument by consenus.
Try harder, mate.
I think it's going to get more heated in the coming weeks/months. Soon both sides of Oz politics (bipartisan) will pass a law allowing foreign minister to over-ride agreements made by state/local/bodies like unis that are not in the national interest... China will be apoplectic when Vic signing up to Belt&Road gets torn up. Confucius institutes will also be under the microscope (how were they ever allowed in the first place?!)
OK, I can hardly keep up with the headlines myself.
Today
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/chinese-embassy-re-escalates-...
so they're doubling down. Their strategy seems to be outright aggression. Marketing dolt or Kim Beazley at the reins, both would have to deal with this. A big Kim speech eloquently saying GFY... that would be gold. The 14 points they have presented as a requirement for normal relations directly contradict Australia's desire to be sovereign.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/jacinda-ardern-comes-to-australia-s...
Jacinda to the rescue! (I'm sure she's loved on SN) Australia's best hope is that as a mid power and exporter, the aggression will rally other mid and small powers; and the democracies; together. 1st signs of this emerging. Further, a Biden presidency has flagged getting the democracies back together under the same tent and reviewing stuff like China's rise/behaviour and their status as a WTO 'developing' country (with a space agency lol). A better write up here from SB, who has been writing very well lately
https://www.theage.com.au/business/the-economy/how-australia-can-respond...
Dot points:
Under Turnbull, Australian policy began to shift from 'sell it all'
Huawei was banned. Sovereignty might demand your telco infrastructure doesn't have someone else's eyes in it.
We have apparently raised concerns about their dumping on many fronts - maybe they dump on many fronts. As WTO 'developing country', as Stephen writes:
"The WTO would be the appropriate forum to consider China’s self-designated status as a "developing country,” which is – Trump got that one right – risible. That status gives China concessional treatment on contentious issues like export subsidies, lower tariff rates and a level of state intervention in its economy that developed economies aren’t allowed.
China’s economy is centrally-directed with a high level of state ownership and subsidy.
There is concessional funding for strategic industries, often channelled through state-owned financial institutions, or provincial or local governments. There are subsidised inputs to industry, cheap power, lower taxes, exclusive access to government contracts, massive levels of support from government-funded research and development programs and the benefits of forced technology transfers and widespread state-directed intellectual property theft.
There’s also state protection – opaque non-tariff barriers to international competition -- for dominant state-owned enterprises."
Western enterprises have been trying to compete with that!
Next point: more pain is coming. Even if we listen. My feeling is a ramping of these trade bans combined with cultural warfare - unless we agree to their 14 points. Which aren't something a sovereign Australia would do. A couple of comments I read suggest they are preparing for iron ore - something that others think they can't diversify from us so easily, and we could hold over them (I'm sure big mining CEOs would love that...)
It all has got political, and won't be fun. Personally, going to the levels and abundance of cheap goods of say, 1990, would be fine with me (& the environment). RE prices too lol I'm dreaming... Timing? Trump on the way out, Biden in - China feels it can go after a small fish. Or: are they worried that Biden bringing all the open democracies together presents a small window to scare them? Dunno. Within Australia, while this forum spends a lot of time fighting left and right, both are being briefed by the same people on this, so I'd expect some bipartisanship in Australia's response.
Everyday Aussies' response has been 'don't buy from them' or 'diversify our exports' - hard as China takes a lot, and nearly all of some sectors. They still like the IO and probably the rare earth metals and lithium for now, though. (There will be a battle for supply chains of these latter 2; it seems like in the cold war two separate supply chains will develop. I've had a good few months researching this topic and seeing who mines what where for who)
But the trade stuff is targeted, and it's a response to Australia gradually closing its door since about 2015. IMO.
Within China, they are bailing their banking sector hard presently. Foreign fights would be a great distraction. Bad loans from too much construction/speculation to keep it all going, maybe? On the positive side they have launched a digital yuan, I believe.
So what do you do? Everyone suddenly remembers that a heavy investor in Australia actually has a completely different ideology and world view - how did they forget?! Open societies have been pulled apart (US) with the wonderful digital connection we all have. Divide and conquer. And there is a conquer aspect, Xi did speak to officers recently and told them to prepare for wars:
https://www.newsweek.com/do-not-fear-death-chinas-xi-orders-soldiers-tra...
On the war front and that A2AD stuff:
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/australia-to-begin-testing-hy...
One excellent comment I read this morning suggested that Australia's path is to shift from a small middle power into a middle- large power. Nuclear armed, not under anyone's umbrella. Maybe even owning it's port in Darwin. Before even seeing that I was thinking, if Australia can survive the powers fighting in this century, the next one is ours...
My overall take on the last couple of weeks is that was it, the relationship 2000-2020 is now over, something different will replace it and it may be tough.
“China is a sleeping giant. Let her sleep, for when she wakes she will move the world.”
Did the trade disputes "that are impacting Australia" improve upon SmoKo's demand for an apology?
Are they likely to?
The 14 points is a demand for submission to their ideology.
I don’t agree with the demand for an apology but I agree with the public rejection of what is an official and public CCP ministry perspective. Just cause it was on Twitter doesn’t mean that it wasn’t also intended for Chinese consumption. The CCP is painting us as the bad guy with further intentions that we can only guess at.
Did you read the Macrobusiness opinion I posted a couple of days ago Stu ?
Nothing we say or do short of bending the knee will appease China . Even that would be taken as an invite to accelerate their plans.
Australia needs nukes ASAP
Recently read Jarrad Diamond's latest book 'Upheaval: How Nations Cope with Crisis and Change', with a chapter about Finland's relationship with Russia. They share a land border, yet the relationship was fragile as Russia was many times larger, had a more formidable army, had expansionary ambitions, and also, Finland occupies some of Russia's ancestral land.
Delicate messaging was paramount for the survival of the country and the Finns pulled it off for 70 years solely due to the wisdom of their politicians. Sometimes that didn't play well for the domestic audience, they appeared weak, appeared to indulge the Kremlin, but they were never invaded and remained a proud sovereign state.
Some lessons to heed.
I’m not sure of the situation regarding Russia and Finland but I think it might not be much of a parallel ?
I think that this is less of an issue about diplomatic niceties and nuance and more about the fact that we have something China wants and Xi’s timeframe has shortened which might have disrupted the acquisition by piecemeal approach.
Totally agree regards Scomo though. He’s as inappropriate for this as every other task as leader of our nation. Bit disconcerting the inconsistency too. He was all in for selling Australia to China by piecemeal up until about a fortnight ago. No one can be so complicit in the undermining of our sovereignty for so long and then morph into the defender of the state overnight. I smell a rat there.
Scomo has never shown an inkling of giving a fck about the obvious maliciousness behind China’s Australian forays . I’d assumed he was captured ....what’s changed ? It’s not like he’s grown a spine or repented from corruption overnight.
BTW good post VJ.
Good posts by all.
A measured response doesn’t mean no response. It means playing a smarter game and trying to work out what China’s aim is before escalating on an issue that we’re going to take a hiding on regardless.
Finland defeating the Russian invasion in WW2 also helped establish their smart and stoic image.
stu @ 7.44pm " ..... I hope for all our sakes he's got access to wise counsel and has the humility to listen".
Do you remember one of Sock-it-to-them-mo's first speeches as PM where he outlined the role of the public service? Essentially he said the PS were there not to give advice (traditionally fearless, expert and independent) but to implement what the government wanted.
A major largely unreported consequence of neo-liberalism and conservative governments here since Howard has been the deliberate and systematic gutting of the PS at executive levels where career public servants who built up a career of expertise in areas of vital public policy were replaced by government appointed yes men/women. An example of what I'm talking about was the large number of government appointments rushed through just before the last federal election across the PS including former government (LNP) staffers and industry leaders to bodies like the Fair Work Commission. Departments like the Department of Foreign Affairs would not be immune to this corruption of the role of the PS.
So going back to stu's comment I seriously doubt it.
I agree etarip jumping up and down will only make us look silly. What China thinks of us is obvious, our image in the eyes of the rest of the world is more important, we don’t want to stoop to that level of petulance.. Most countries, especially our allies will be able to see the hypocrisy of the CCP’s actions.
Fuck China.
Lets take the economic hit for short term pain but long term gain.
Wasn't just good diplomacy the Finns had. When it came to fight, they had this bloke:
https://www.historyextra.com/period/second-world-war/worlds-deadliest-sn...
That should send a shiver down your spine next time you are walking up in the snow.
I thought Scomo's response was fine, same deal the other month when he supported an investigation into origins of Covid and China got pissed off and started playing trade games.
Obviously you dont want to start world war 3 and go too hard, but you also need to stand up for yourself a bit, otherwise you just become a total push over, and they lose respect for you anyway.
To me thats the real worry with Trump gone, Trump was starting to play hard ball with China and not scared to ruffle their feathers a little, and the USA does set the tone in a sense for the western world.
China's like a Girlfriend that you know is bad for you and you know you need to break up with before she really screws your head and heart over, but it's hard causes she's hot and the sex is good.
Like ringmaster said.
"Fuck China.
Lets take the economic hit for short term pain but long term gain."
Edit: but as you can see from comments like below, you will never keep everyone happy, it will always be the wrong thing, show a bit of balls and everyone complains, kiss arse and everyone complains.
PM's response was in line with his schtick that won him the election and the one he has been peddling ever since.
In Dave Sharmas interview the other day regarding the Iranian hostage swap, Sharma stated that there are always discussions behind the scenes that the public doesn't see or even needs to know about. If Morrison was genuine that is the tact he would be taking, not just this time, but ever since he started playing to the local audience. Like GS says he is getting advice from hacks with an eye on elections not diplomacy.
JQ that MW article kind of proves what a self serving parasite Barilaro is. Almost need a seperate thread for corrupt politicians
Velocity Johnno I agree with stu net that was some good form earlier.
Brazilian iron ore share prices set to skyrocket. My conjecture anyway, gambler mentality.
PM Responds To China’s Comments About War Crimes: “Mate Let’s Talk About Pearl Harbour Then?”
https://www.betootaadvocate.com/humans-of-betoota/pm-responds-to-chinas-...
Facto - this is the kinda shit I expect from you. please try harder.
The best thing Scummo could’ve done publicly is pretend he doesn’t even know who the minister who posted the picture is. Pretend that the minister is so unimportant that the photo was insignificant and could not possibly offend. Then move on. Too late now.
China is the thin skinned bully in the yard at the moment prodding for a reaction.
Exactly soggy dog. Scumo's "outrage" at the meme was for the domestic audience and, our exporters have to suck up the consequences.
And given the photos and reports about our troops in Afghanistan, we've kind of lost the high moral ground when it comes to China's human rights abuses.
Vic Local - Are you punching down again mate ? Still victim blaming huh ?
China ( population of 1,6 billion ) has had its official embassy employees hand deliver a 14 point list of demands to the Australian MSM so that it may be broadcast to the nation. The CCP published list and accompanying message literally states that Australia ( population 25 million) will be punished with economic sanctions and boycotts until they accede to the 14 point list of demands.
Below is the list of demands we must obey if we are to expect the fair and legal trade practices to resume. China will continue to ignore the international rules based order until Australia commences dismantling our democracy, sovereignty and freedom to China’s satisfaction.
This is why our exporters are being punished - because we are being made the first prime example by China of how they demand subservient, lesser nations to conform to their totalitarian dictatorship.
Do you really think we should take the knee to China and foresake our sovereignty so that a few export orders are preserved ?
The economic sanctions have NOTHING to do with Scomo. China is the aggressor and the party at fault.
Stop blaming the victim.
well we are being punished as being the South Pacific sheriff of the USA.
It'll be interesting to see whether Biden's foreign policy is a circuit breaker.
Diversify now and whatever we do, no more marketing to Chinese tourists.
Quite a few examples of double standards in that list
The "I can't believe it's not politics" thread.