The "I can't believe it's not politics" thread.
Even you know you’re talking evasive garbage Facto. The only person distracted from your lack of knowledge, answers and credibility is yourself you daft twat.
Fck off back under your bridge you troll cnt.
I am definitely questioning the merit of immigration on the scale that it has been allowed to take place in Australia. I think it is deeply irresponsible for more than half of the population growth to come from immigration (barring some sort of crisis).
I'm all for evidence based policy, immigration policy should not be excused from that.
JQ....We now officially agree.
How’s it feel to now be considered a Nazi by some of the dumb fcks lurking around here ?
I guess you’ve contributed your one or two posts of substance today Facto, it’d be overly-ambitious to expect any more.
Australia’s FTA’s, it’s immigration policies and its levels of population growth and what they achieve are obvious enough.
You hate the LNP but are happy to defend some of its most damaging platforms.
What’s the hoary old chestnut?
Some interesting links discussing some benefits of immigration:
They certainly make more informed, rational and balanced reading and debate than blowin's continual ramblings of misinformed, uneducated and narrow minded claptrap, propaganda, inflammatory remarks and conspiracy theory.
Hahaha, you lost me at the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry's "Migration World For All Of Us - Delivering benefits to all Australians"
That like a line out of The Simpsons.
GSCO, I think to short categorise Blowins views as you have done is unproductive and unhelpful. If you've got arguments to make, which it certainly seems you do, you should be able to make them in a more measured manner. Disagree all you like, but do it in a more reasoned style...
I may not agree with many of his views and opinions, but that does not invalidate them.
I'm interested in the links you've provided, I'll have a look at a few when I've got time. Whilst I think immigration is at a level too high right now, I definitely recognise the benefits that it can bring.
I get that the LNP have deliberately created a domestic underclass and pitted them against an immigrant underclass.
There's no shortage of gig jobs that higher income earners want done, and they don't want to pay much for food delivery, lawn mowing, and au pairs.
Sorry guys but we do need immigrants to do some jobs in Australia. Aged care providers pay fuck all and make seriously large profits. Just imagine how much worse aged care would be without new migrants on the front lines. Spend a bit of time in a Hospital and you'll realise how crucial immigrants, TWV, and TPV holders are to keep those places functioning.
Low wages and shit conditions are just one way low skill workers get screwed. Wage earners are reclassified as independent contractors and offered no protection. Franchisors screw franchisees who then screw their staff.
The great crimes of the LNP is gutting universities and TAFEs so Aussies lack opportunities, allowing the workforce to be casualised, allowing industrial scale wage theft, not protecting franchisees from predatory franchisors, loose bankruptcy laws that screw small businesses. etc etc etc.
The people who are most screwed by the LNP's policies are low skill Aussies and immigrant labour. Covid 19 has seen the numbers of people on work visas plummet. It hasn't resulted in wage rises for low skill Aussies. It hasn't stopped wage theft. It hasn't improved the lot of the low skill mob at all.
Maybe, just maybe, you blokes haven't worked out who is screwing the working poor in Australia. I will give you a hint, it's not the new migrant laying tile, staking shelves, or pouring coffee next to you.
It is undeniable that Australia, its people, economy and social fabric have benefited from immigration. It’s something we should be proud of. However our masters have become addicted to it. It is lazy. Increasingly immigration has become the only tool they have left to prop up the GDP. As if that metric is something that actually means anything anymore unless you are the 1%.
Immigration will always play a part in our nation and it should. But the current rate is unsustainable. Habitat loss IS the number one environmental issue.
Our changing climate is worsening this
Residential development is not the only reason for loss of habitat.. but it is a factor.
Infrastructure has not keep up. Can not keep up.
The whole high density argument has proven to be a farce. One only need look at the state of high rise residential buildings in NSW and VIC.
The regions have been battling with water supply since the millennial drought if not earlier. .
And this is probably about to get a whole lot worse with new pressure for people to move to the regions. The MDBA has been watered down to become almost ineffective. More people to the regions will exacerbate this.
It is feeding our housing inequality. Purposely so. I can not overstate this enough.
It is not us who are benefiting from completely off charts immigration rates. Nor is it the recently made citz or Perm Res.
It is not a partisan issue. All parties are to blame.
This is not new. We know this.
The worse part is we won’t do something about it.
People want to move here for a reason. What happens when that is lost.
Jeezus this behavior is a breath of fresh air. Keep it up.
Good points bonza,
But if Australia doesn't spend a seriously large amount of tax dollars on education and training, now, we will have a massive skills shortage and large drop in quality of life. This will of course be felt most by the working and non-working poor.
Australia has lost it's economic way. Back in the 80s when workers pushed up productivity, they were rewarded with wage rises. People on an average wage could afford to get into the housing market but negative gearing fucked that up.
I get why the working poor are pissed, but blaming immigrants for the lion share of their problems is fucking pathetic.
These people cling to Hanson's BS about ongoing high paying jobs without the need for up-skilling if we just got rid of the immigrants.
Australia needs a new social contract like Germany has. Governments and businesses provide ongoing training opportunities for workers, and they take up those opportunities. German CEOs don't fuck over their staff while claiming massive salaries.
We need to radically address the policies that drive up inequality, and inequality of opportunities. Blaming high levels of immigration is a cop out. Especially since Covid 19 has seen Australia have a negative NOM. It's a chicken's way out. It solves nothing.
I was there mr. evasion, even worked with international students, in many forms...
your timeline is designed exclusively to blame the lnp, ...conveniently... yes the lnp started the shit show, but it took some time for the real decadence to set in, and boy did it set in...
not patronising to fellow australians at all, more scathing of a system that pandered to chinese mafia millionaires and saudi oil princes
but yeh you know everything...
you just don't share anything
you give nothing...
but shit and abuse
you're just looking after your own interests, whilst touting yourself as the good guy. the good guy that shows total disdain for the working class, whilst trying to preserve the totally unsustainable and corrupted university model
it's done mate, overheated, over invested, cooked, over cooked ...totally..., and all you have is...
You are spot on about training, can you not see the link between immigration and the loss of on-job training? immigration is not the sole reason but it is a factor.
Wage rises (or lack thereof) are a factor. Again CURRENT (pre-covid) Immigration is not the sole reason but it is a factor.
negative gearing is a factor on housing inequality but it is not the only factor. This has been analysed many times before. Immigration rates, capital gains, and now QE are also significant factors also.
I am not blaming immigrants*. I am blaming policy. Please re-read this twice.
Hanson is a Lib stooge. Everyone knows this.
Yes we do need to address polices that drive inequality. Please reread my point re GDP metric.
* I have many close friends that are immigrants (see what I did there) and we get on great. Except for this one SAFA karnt mate of mine who is the biggest snake ever. I call him the traffic cop. I love him but he can fark of back where he came from.
Obviously population levels need to be sustainable. But blaming immigration for Australia's real estate issues and environmental degradation is total denial. I can post thousands of links about the mining boom(s) and the FIFO spend up, and mining's effect on environment, including accomodating all the staff. Port Hedland exploded thanks to blowins, not immigrants. Its happening again now. Karratha? With free money on offer now too, thanks to the Reserve Bank. All those cashed up mining personel are being lured into real estate anywhere a 'deal' can be struck. Always.
Gold Coast, Mooloolaba, Port Douglas, Northern Rivers, investors have been investing for decades, looking at any angle to profit. I doubled my money in Ballina and Mooloolaba ages ago. The goldy exploded when it was 'over bought and oversold'. Ever heard of Ulverstone in Tassie? Shit its gone through the roof this side, hey look, just over there, shit there's a ferry, put in a golf course... Nothing at all to do with immigrants.
Even when rates were nothing like this, FIFO workers and investors were buying everything they could grab in Adelaide, and anywhere in the country considered a bargain. Having seen that, I flew a Perth agent to Lincoln and sold 20 blocks in 15 minutes. She begged me for more blocks. A cheap Esperance and Albany.
Australians being encouraged to invest in property is old news. Australians buying low, selling high, city, rural, its nothing new. Those big 'mansions' in Angourie? Its been happening for ages. Hey look, there's another side to Sydney! Quick! Real estate equity is big business. Aussies figured out how to turn an inner city shithole into millions, and suburbs into millions. Farms into 'environmental friendly self sustainable'... Views into millions. Position into millions. 'Value adding'. And how to use the millions to make more millions. The Chinese etc have millions too. So sellers woo them too.
Rio blows up the environment, not immigrants. Uranium miners wanted to blow up the Flinders Ranges. in SA. We label ourselves a 'consumer' society. The whole covid thing is governed by consumption, spending. Even if all the 'immigrants' are stopped, we want more. New and newer. Sheds full. New Kitchens. Landscaping. Decor. Bunnings. Maccas. Just like Seminyak. For us. It's us all the shit in Bali is aimed at. Canggu got turned into a bungey jump for us. The boat trips are for us. Blowin has a whole thread on his and his partner's consumption needs.
We are the problem, We think its clever, advanced to turn millions into more millions. Getting a deal! Cleaning up! Cashing in! Everybody wants the dream. Fuck, look where all this crap is being argued. Its all a cash grab. A market. Buy the dream. Its our culture. Capitalism and consumerism. Its us. And we want bigger armies, to keep it all running. To guard the wave pools. In 2020. So sophisticated.
I doubled my money in Ballina and Mooloolaba ages ago.
"Having seen that, I flew a Perth agent to Lincoln and sold 20 blocks in 15 minutes. She begged me for more blocks. A cheap Esperance and Albany"
Mooloolaba? Ever heard of Junipers?
Sydney was selling up and cleaning up in Ballina ages ago. Then they turned and looked the other way and stampeded down there.
Fucking Prevally looked like... grunters was just a wave and a dirt track. No one even wanted the first blocks.
Of course I'm serious. That FIFO land grab was ludicrous. Adelaide didn't even have to try.
you did this?
Ulverstone had about 50 houses and a sort of golf course. A block with a shack was about 10 -15 thousand
Look what them immigrants done!!!!
Do you seriously think that Chinese pinpointed Ulverstone? Or that the sleepy little real estate agent even had to lift a finger? Ozzie, ozzie, ozzie oye, oye, oye!
i'm impressed.. but my muscles are bigger than yours. i've seen your workouts. workouts for ants.
Stop being a wanker. Its not very impressive. Its small fry shit. Wake the fuck up.
jq, in the (long) time it took me to do my degree(s) my uni went from having a modest cafeteria with affordable student food, to a westfield like food court with an abundance of food choices ...not all bad, except that many domestic students could barely afford to eat there anymore. little coffee shop type deals sprang up all over the campus - much like the rest of oz through this time frame - but it was becoming increasingly clear, affordable student food was no longer a priority for the university. being older and working I didn't really care, but for those old school type students fresh out of school on austudy the place became a different world
the yuppyfication of libraries and various study spaces, buildings and courtyards was quite impressive, this definitely wasn't some university struggling to make ends meet under a reduced funding model. the new buildings and general renovations that were going on were beyond impressive - if you didn't have a keen eye for the changing university landscape, ...I'm not just talking about the gardens!
and the pandering and and general submissiveness of the university that developed, as it catered to the overseas cohort, became quite nauseating, seriously nauseating in fact, ...even if it was paying for my lovely thai curry lunch...
I hadn't been back on campus for years, but was there last year, and geez the gentrification and general opulence had continued to go next level again. these are not the hallmarks of 'struggling university sector'. it was all clear evidence of a system that had sold it's soul, ...as are the vice chancellor's multi million dollar salaries...
it's not 'the left's' role exclusively to fund universities, I'm just asking facto how he proposes all this to continue? as he's constantly screaming poor for the university system, and seems to be totally oblivious to the changing realities on the ground,
...and the fundamentals of funding pretty much anything at all!!
“ Obviously population levels need to be sustainable”
It’s just that it’s not acceptable to want to do something about it, right?
no i'm being serious michael. i don't mean to offend - its just that when it comes to increasing glute strength and endurance i find better results in taking a dump compared to your routine. sorry.
Australia's got shitloads of real big spenders. And they want up, up and away!
Well, Andy, parsing immigration, even population make-up in general, working out the numbers for each part, enables us to best plan for the future. Ain't that a given? And isn't that the point?
All 'immigration' isn't equal. To think halting all immigration is the panacea for all our collective ills as a nation is naive in the extreme.
Letting bigots lead the charge and set the markers, well, we've all seen how the conversation quickly deteriorates, and the dark paths it takes.
Lowball jingoistic xenophobia.
It's merely unproductive at best. At worst?
Anyway, some perspective.
Post-war - from 45 to 60 - the population nearly doubled to over 13 million. Of that number, a third was due to migration.
Imagine the impacts! Across the boards!
1995 marked fifty years of post-war migration. The population: 18 million.
We are now at 25.5 million.
NOM > birth rate hit a peak in 2008.
Mainly down to the range of temporary visas.
It should be clear that a federal government that is not fully committed to climate change action, advocating a literally toxic economic ideology - Frydenberg openly fan-boiing Thatcher and Reagan! - is the problem at hand, and should be the target, all day and every day. They've been getting away with it for decades. Victim-blaming is for suckers. Punch up, not down. Easy, but hard. Hard, but easy.
The bigot route is for cowards.
Nah credit where its due Michael.
It’d be great if you could come and visit us in the rental market. We could really do with a bigshot property investor to put in some good words with the RE agents about our terms.
Just curious .. when you cut up all that land you would’ve come to an arrangement with the TO’s yeah. As an aspiring big shot property investor I’d really be interested in your feedback, as an expert, on indigenous culture what consultation approach you took and the steps you came to?
The land was in the middle of the city. The council encourages development. Everyone is supposed to have so much 'green'. Just like carparks. Or just pay.
Figure it out yourself.
I hear ya, MB. Imagine getting all your political info from a middle-brow glorified real estate site, well...
Crop fail coming right up.
yeah cool. got it. pay the council. is cash ok in covid times?. thanks heaps.
always was. always will be.
Don't tell me, the driver's Chinese!
ok good chat. can't compete with facto. its been fun.
The corporatisation of universities has been especially stark in the last decade. On the ground.
Even in this short space of time the formerly collegial relationship between the VC & executive and academic & professional staff is now openly hostile and adversarial.
Universities are in crisis. The shit hits the fan next year.
Wide industrial action, imminent.
And it's obvious you don't know what that entails, or the potential impacts, in any way, shape or form, Sepp.
Though we live in hope.
First of all Facto, thanks for that reply at just after midnight.
Totally agree with that first paragraph.
Where is this talk of halting all immigration? I see suggestions of going back to the historical average, maybe even a zero net growth level of immigration at the extreme, but no talk of zero immigration.
Yeah there's Poorlean and her ilk talking it up but there's also Bob Brown and heaps of other non-bigots.
To avoid the discussion or to avoid acting because bigots might/will be part of the conversation is non-sensical and, dare I say it, cowardly.
As for climate change, land clearing, destructive mining and the rest of the show stoppers, surely we can walk and scratch our balls at the same time.
And yes, attack the policies and not the individuals.
Australia as a continent and habitat for human beings has some unique environmental constraints not shared by other large land masses.
It’s very ill suited to the population densities found in Europe, Asia and the Americas.
The indigenous inhabitants of this land had that figured out.
Just an observation.
Super rare for facto to actually post a proper opinion that is his own, but when the topic of university's ever comes up, memes get put away and he doesn't need to cut and paste some crikey article and he gets half serious, maybe he is a university lecturer or involved in university's in some way.
Would make sense the ones ive met and done work for a smart in a book type of way and super woke, but completely clueless to the reality of the real world and look down on others as facto does.
Did you read all those links GSCO?
I went through most of them and found the picture presented by what was obviously pro-immigration sources quite mixed.
This from the Lowy Institute: "However, the ‘privatisation’ of the immigrant selection process has also produced distortions. This is particularly evident in relation to the 457 visa scheme. While 457 visas enable employers to source workers with desired skills at short notice, they dampen the incentives for employers to invest in training, to pay better wages or to create higher-quality jobs to attract local applicants. A key problem with the scheme is that existing regulations requiring employers to prove that a skill shortage exists before sponsoring a 457 visa holder are weak and ineffective.
I think that is tacit admission that it is producing downward pressure on wages and a disincentive to train.
10% labour productivity rises in the last decade but no wage rises.
Geez facto, even when you're conceding ground and accepting reality you are condescending cunt...
seriously dude, what is your problem?
...thats condescending bad man
The homepage thanks you.
Conceding ground and accepting reality ? Hardly.
He’s still parroting the LNP line from 2016 that to voice the obvious need to limit population growth is to admit to membership of the KKK.
Don’t worry . Throwbacks such as this fool and their attempts to stymie the protection of the Australian environment and standard of living will be looking like Scomo brandishing his lump of coal at parliament before too long.
And thank fuck for that .
Scomo - “ If you want to stop using coal it’s only because you hate coal miners .”
Facto - “If you want to slow population growth it’s only because you’re a bigot.”
Even Mick Bourne acknowledges the problem.
Those people saying we need to stop immigration to protect the Australian environment are chucking boulders in a glass houses.
We have to be pound-for-pound one of the most environmentally destructive nations on the planet. We keep voting for environmental vandals, live in massive houses, and drive massive cars. Australia exports shit loads of coal and the gas barrons are planning a gas lead economic recovery. But when you introduce immigrants into the equation, blowin and co get their bob brown on and become environmental defenders.
I know the type. They couldn't give a fuck about homeless people until an asylum seeker arrives and then it's, "house our homeless before letting in the refugees".
What a fucking joke. We spend $80 bil on submarines and homeless don't get a look in. 1 refugee and the anti-immigrant bums start behaving like the Salvation Army.
So you're happy to see the population of this country continue to explode which means even more demand on oil, gas, coal, water, every-fucking-thing.
Awww that's right. Growth is GREAT for all of us! Everyone benefits!!!
You're dribbling shit Vic.
So you're happy to see the population of this country continue to explode..?
Short answer No.
Where exactly have I said that again? And Ringmaster the NOM is currently negative.
AndyM. Not dribbling shit at all. Just pointing out the fact that there's a shit load of fair-weather greenies out there who live an utterly unsustainable lifestyle and only have concerns about the environment if it means they can attack immigrants. Kind of like the people who build a 7 bedroom house in town and then scream "protect the environment" when the neighbour puts in an application for a 7 bedroom home next door.
Using that same logic, you'd be siding with the right-wing argument that nobody who drives a car has any right to want to address climate change.
"there's a shit load of fair-weather greenies out there who ... only have concerns about the environment if it means they can attack immigrants."
What percentage Vic?
Quantify that statement.
he conceded a little on the uni thing ...a little being the key word...
I was trying to be encouraging, it was a display of real growth from my perspective (all relative of course...)
the rest he ain't giving an inch, he's still an open borders try hard anarchist idealist, who masks it all with his identity politics fascism 'you're all bigots' routine...
saw a story on platypussies recently (...platypi?) ...anyway, the little fellas are in real trouble, the biggest threat is habitat loss due to housing developments, ...not pollution, not climate change, or any of the other usual suspects, but bloody housing developments...
we are so privelaged in australia that we are in a position that we can preserve forests and ecosystems and little fellas. personally I think we owe it to the world to lock down as much bush as we can and give up on this big australia bullshit, no other country in the world is in such a unique a position as us. there's lots of talk in other places, but population pressure and the dollar means limited capacity to save anything. australia is selling future generations, and the wider world short big time, and this period will be seen as an unnecessary disaster in the very near future
that's assuming 'the left' desperately gets it's shit together, in some shape or form, and stops losing so much ground...
and btw, not many people at all 'attack immigrants' these days, barely at all actually. it's over the top immigration that is the problem, but the hostility to both will only get worse unless certain cohorts don't rein in their nutters...
...don't call out their crazies...
but carry on...