The Woz Adopts IOC Trans Policy
Leaning into this topic gently...
On February 1st the WSL released their latest rule book and unsurprisngly it includes a new transgender athlete policy. Unsurprising, as last year the International Olympic Committee (IOC) released their policy on trans athletes and, as an aspiring Olympic sport, surfing is walking in lockstep with the IOC.
For all the complexities surrounding the issue, and there are many, the ruling is straightforward:
"The surfer must satisfy the International Surfing Association Medical Commission that her serum testosterone concentration has been less than 5 nmol/L continuously for a period of the previous 12 months and secondly, meets any other requirements reasonably set by the Executive Committee and/or Medical Commission."
Yesterday, Bethany Hamilton posted a straight-to-camera video on Instagram voicing her opposition to the new ruling (see below). In less than 24 hrs it's garnered over 100,000 likes
Hamilton claims "many of the current tour surfers" are, like her, opposed to the ruling but won't speak up for fear of being ostracized. Throughout the video Hamilton uses the term "male-bodied" athletes to describe transgender women, which cuts to the heart of the issue.
To be eligible, trans women must monitor their testosterone levels for the year prior, yet their bodies may have many years, a lifetime in fact, of muscle memory from competing in men's sport.
Hamilton suggests that a separate category should be created to make the playing field level for all, which seems fair and magnanimous though the realities are far harder to work out. Surfing has had just one experience with a transgender competitor (WA's Sasha Jane Lowerson won the Women's state longboard division three years after winning the male division as Richard Egan), and even if more were to come forth it's difficult to see the category ever being popular enough to be competitive.
Also, at the international level, it would require the WSL creating a whole new pathway to a world title, from junior level to Regional QS, CS, and the then CT - plus equal prizemoney and webcast time.
In recent years, pro surfing has endeavoured to make itself more inclusive, and including trans athletes woud appear the next step in that campaign. However, unlike correcting female pay disparity, the solutions for trans athletes don't appear to exist within the current structure.
Geez, each to their own, but if you have a penis or every had a penis, then you should not be able to compete as a women. By all means have a separate category for transgender, but having women who once had a man's body compete against women is not fair. Alternatively, just scrap male and female events and put all genders into one.
Completely agree andy; born a male with a dick & balls then biologically you inherit male characteristics such as increased testosterone levels, which will always be present, no matter what methods are used to reduce it; allowing the body to be able to develop muscle mass and strength.........all achieved prior to deciding to transgender. That's why athletes in sports like Athletics & Swimming are lobbying so hard to have the criteria changed................all because it doesn't translate to a level playing field.
Gutsy and well justified Beth.
This thread might be an interesting read in a few days.
Brave girl Hamilton and good to see some support from some X pros on her gram post.
It's probably easy to think it will never be an issue, but seems a trans person has won a surfing comp.
Probably just easier to call mens event an open event, never going to be enough trans surfers for a trans division.
Anyway welcome to 2023
Yep. Guys that couldn’t make the mens tour will take this stuff for 12 months then be like, I identify as a trans straight man that sleeps with real women but takes pills to lower my testosterone so I can compete in on the WSL, and can I just say that the equal pay is awesome!
Do you really think there's gonna be a bunch of blokes lining up to do that? Hint: There's not.
Go to Coolangatta the next time the swells running. Then tell me there’s not.
There's not, mate.
Everyone out there wishes or thinks they should be a professional surfer.
While i think its unlikely to happen in numbers, its still possible one guy does it as there is money and waves involved.
I think the more realistic scenario is like link above where a real trans person wins against women and could go on to dominant.
But even just one comp or heat is wrong, women having to compete against biological men is never going to be fair.
Except that one time Keala Kennelly beat Andy. Oh or that other time Coco Ho beat a bunch of males. All the other times though. Just not these times.
I think thats unrealistic, maybe one guy might try it for money and waves but they would need to be pretty brave in many ways, its not like they can just say hey im identify as a women let me compete..
The bigger concern is you get a true trans person in womens surfing, even if they dont win its unfair for the girls to compete against biological men, but would really suck if they lost to a biological man especially if they went on and dominated, which is a realistic possibility.
And its not a stretch as article above shows a real life example already in surfing.
Making the mens category an open category solves the whole issue, gives any brave girl he chance to see if she can match it with the guys too.
Yeah I agree with you. I was half joking but why have it as an avenue that could be exploited. People are always looking for an edge in sport. Maybe somebody’s love of surfing would convince them that they should make the change and go for it.
I identify as a kook
I knew there were more like me out there somewhere....
Gotta be the worst debate, because even though it does seem unfair the argument pretty much always gets taken over by people who have never met a trans person in their life but somehow its their biggest concern.
And how does meeting a person change the issue . This is not a personality debate , it’s a fairness , integrity issue .
Agree that it seems unfair on face value, although I don't know the science behind it.
The issue is that often people use these debates to hate on people that are already discriminated against, when it has little to no bearing on their own life but can destroy others. Look at what happened with that Deves lady at the last election, it was basically just inciting the mob against the vulnerable.
This thread doesn't seem to have gone too far down that path, although that may just be good moderating. I've seen some bad ones.
I've got the popcorn ready for this one
I'm so with you Bethany
It's not just about trans women though is it. Its about women - 51% of the population.
Dr Emma Hilton and Dr Ross Tucker and others show that adjusting for advantage, lowering T doesn't cut it.
Tucker adjusting advantage ... cut it hmmm ... sorry selective hearing
Surely these references fall into the idea that because it says so on the internet it must be true.
One reference is published on an an anti trans group website and the other is an interview with a physiologist
Can we stick with peer reviewed research
How to eradicate women's sports.
Good on you, Bethany.
Each to their own, re identity etc..
But to use an unfair male advantage and jeopardise the livelihoods of these women who've put so much time, effort and sacrifice into their chosen area of sport/expertise is just wrong.
""The surfer must satisfy the International Surfing Association Medical Commission that her serum testosterone concentration has been less than 5 nmol/L continuously for a period of the previous 12 months and secondly, meets any other requirements reasonably set by the Executive Committee and/or Medical Commission.""
as bethany points out... why is it only mentioned one way about transitioning?
and, why has it been such a problem?
the answers are obvious, as is any solution
a solution to a non problem
what should've been a non problem...
I have to wonder how this would pan out if Kelly Slater decided to change sides, have 12 months off to lower the testosterone levels, then start competing as Kellie Slater? Fair? Not at all.
Being trans must be farkn hard going. A lot of discrimination to endure and sadly a disproportionately high suicide rate. Wherever this comment section heads, hopefully people can maintain kindness, respect, and compassion
Agree, and I have the same hope as you.
Via social media, I'm watching a former shaper and creative force go through the process of transitioning, handling it with dignity and restraint. In a way, her story is related to the article above and yet it also seems a million miles away.
So true and good post.
I knew a baker who used to do the graveyard shift. They fully presented as chick but this was a long time ago before the anti-discrimination laws had teeth and society as a whole was more tolerant. I know they used to cop it pretty rough.
Came into work one night and asked where ※※※※ was. I was pretty upset- they'd topped themself. As sad as I was, I wasn't surprised.
My cousin is trans- used to be a gun AFL player. Always knew something was suss, used to grow their hair long and run on tippy toes. Was only a matter of time ha ha!
I hope so too, but with respect I think you're missing the point, which is that this is a death knell to women's sports - and a massive insult to women.
I don't give a toss whether someone is straight/bi/gay/trans/green/blue, but don't expect the whole world to cater to YOU to the detriment of everybody else - or in this case 50% of the population.
And the massively high suicide rate is sadly not an issue exclusively trans. Indeed, I think it is common to many people these days who focus solely on identity matters. We are first and foremost human beings, people, citizens, and they are great things to have in common.
Last para, first sentence: Some might consider it all relative, but fact is suicide is significantly higher. Also, people might make fun of 'identity' issues - i.e "I identify as a bodyboarder" etc etc - but being born into the wrong sex is real, and also misunderstood/easily dismissed by those who've never experienced it.
Stu, first of all I never said that being born into the 'wrong' sex wasn't real.
Secondly, now that all things trans are celebrated and shouted from the rooftops, to the point that kindergarten kids are subjected to perverse drag shows, suicides go up. Kids are actively encouraged to take puberty blockers and have irreversible surgery, yet somehow this doesn't seem to make us happier. Maybe we should focus on what unites us rather than what sets us apart.
Are kids really taking puberty blockers and having irreversible surgery? Pretty sure you can’t have sex change surgery in Australia until you’re 18. Have you been getting your news from Ray Hadley?
Not sure about Aust but globally yeah the biggest transition centre in the world in the UK ( Tavistock) shut down recently for a variety of reasons but mostly because it became of the mess around kids/teens transiting, even huge legal cases with 1,000 of X patients involved. (this back lash and regret is only bound to get bigger in time)
Just a random article as an example.
"The UK's only children's gender identity development service (GIDS), run by the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, is to be sued by "at least a thousand families" who allege that their children were rushed into taking life-changing puberty blocking drugs. As a result they were facing "physical and psychological permanent scarring that will last the rest of these victims’ lifetimes", alleged the law firm involved.
The action follows last month’s announcement by the NHS that the clinic would be closed over safety concerns. "
The whole area has become a mess, in particular there has been a huge spike in teen girls wanting to transition to being boys and a clear social contagion factor where clusters are happening in groups of kids at schools etc
Also heaps of push back now from the gay community as many of these kids in reality are more likely just gay.
Remember teens are full of hormones and self identity issues and definitely not of an age to make life changing of irreversible decisions, hence why you can't get a tattoo until 18.
Lots of push back from feminist too around this issue (Terfs)
Only know so much about it as many podcast i listen to Triggernometry and Joe Rogan seem a little obsessed on it all, always having various guest in the field on.
BTW. If you are 18+ and feel you are in the wrong body, then fine, but its very different to transiting of kids or teens.
A pretty ham fisted attempt to legitimize your biases with "facts" Indo.
If you are going to post a link to an article in support of your argument at least try to read and understand it, just on the off chance it contradicts you.
The safety concerns that lead to the closing of the clinic do not relate to these treatments and services being provided to children and adolescents, but rather to the clinical standards of this single service provider in the UK. The continuation of the quote from the law firm (Pogust Goodhead?!) that you didn't include in your post:
"While the provision of gender dysphoria treatment for children and young adolescents, where appropriate, is an important service, many have been let down by Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust."
If the law firm is able to get 1,000 claimants to sign onto the class action they will represent approximately 6.4% of the patients referred to the clinic between 2010 and 2021 (based on the numbers shown in Wiki for yearly referrals).
I know nothing about the science behind all this, biological and cultural influences, but I'm sure there are kids that just know they are in the wrong bodies and for those kids, the earlier they get treatment the better. And in those instances where there is ambiguity or questions, you need robust clinical procedures followed by well supported professionals to protect kids.
Defaulting to the legal age of adulthood (18) is weak and gutless, it says that we as a society lack the maturity to deal with the nuances of the human condition, and if we're living in Australia in 2023 and saying that about ourselves then something has gone very fucking wrong.
My reply was to show Batfink that it does happen and the area is a mess whether you admit it or not, i didn't say it was the whole reason for closure but it was a factor.
If your all for kids and teens under 18 making a huge decision like changing their sex/gender then you might as well let them have the same choices as people over 18 on pretty much anything.
I mean seriously what would you rather live with regretting a tattoo on your arm you got at 13 of some crappy band logo you loved at the time or living with serious damage to your body done on a decision you made while going through puberty a time when teens have all kinds of identity issues and are in no way mature enough to make such huge life changing decisions.
Anyway saw this the other month it's a reality check of a 16 year old girl after five years of puberty blockers balding like a 40 plus man and not sounding to happy with her decision, its truely sad.
And YouTube is full of these trans regret type videos and im sure it will become more of an issue and legal cases more of a thing in years to come.
No mate, your reply to Batfink was just to reiterate your own ignorant opinion. The inclusion of the article and the selective quote from the article was was an attempt to to add legitimacy to that opinion. This failed due to you not understanding what was written in the article.
You then followed up with completely unsubstantiated references "heaps of push back from the gay community" and "feminists" to attempt to add further "weight" to your ignorant opinion.
And cited Joe Rogan as the fount of your deep knowledge on this complex issue...and now you follow it up with YouTube.
I suggest you find an adult (or anybody with the mental age greater than that of a toddler, regardless of body type or physical age) to explain to you the YouTube algorithm and Confirmation Biasing.
And if the big words they use make your little brain hurt, have a glass of milk and put your head back up your arse where it's warm and safe and absolutely everything is just like you.
In regard to Joe rogan or trigernometry podcast, obviously we aren't talking about the views or knowledge of the host, but the guest who are often some of most respected in the field or trans or x trans people.
Anyway I'm wasting my time here, you are obviously very close minded.
Another good point, made non aggressively.
Rubicon, you should re-read id's posts. It might remind you to play the ball, not the man.
Thanks IB, on re-read and in light of his deeply ironic (and wonderfully passive) last send off I see it now!
He's a Satirist! Lampooning the ignorant and narrow minded with their vain attempts to reassure themselves that their opinions are somehow universal. Such commitment to role play, comic genius!
And I appreciate your comment on ball playing, always happy to take the advice of an expert.
you're onto something ib...
for all the 'advocacy'...
for all the activism...
and a heap of other stuff endeavouring to 'help' the trans community,...
apparently, life has never been worse for parts of this small community...
not time to consider that maybe we / they / them have been doing something wrong perhaps?
I know social media plays a role, but really, that is feeding it from all angles
maybe time to consider this constant hyperbolic narrative of 'transphobia' and 'hate' is actually doing more harm than good?
I know if I was a teenager reading all this crap... (in a social media feedback loop bubble) ... I'd have a pretty warped perspective about what most people think of trans and gay people...
when the reality is, most people don't give a stuff, and have an attitude very similar to you... ie. whatever floats your boat...
whilst at the same time having nothing but empathy and concern for kids navigating these waters
if 'the narrative' is a constant negative one, about supposed hate and phobia... then some people are going to believe it, and some totally buy into it...
...especially impressionable kids struggling to find their tribe...
this article I posted below touches on it
but back in the 90's, no one really gave a fuck about girly boys or butch females, the music culture was full of em, be it feminate brit pop boys or tough as nails grungy riot girls...
androgyny was a thing, before it was even a thing...
and, there was a lot of cross 'genders' / in gender banging and throuples going on too, of that I am sure... there just was neither the urge or need to announce it to the world...
I really feel for kids living out their whole lives on social media - especially the formative years, as that is exactly what they are - formative...
how we got to such a supposedly 'negative' place I don't understand...
and tbh, I don't really buy it either...
I think it is largely the result of a very loud hysterical minority
a hysterical 'activist' class that have lost the plot... or never actually had it...
(yes, I said hysterical)
correction: I meant more the teenage years re. social media
but sadly, the 'debate' (and SM) has now found its place in the formative years too!
Just a little higher than population norms
If 56% of the population had made a suicide attempt I don't think we would have crowded surf breaks
If this isn't an advantage, we would have the same issue regarding trans men competing in Men's sports. We don't.
You've got to feel for trans women who want to participate in sports, as there is no clear solution.
Must be pretty soul destroying being a biological female and training your guts out your whole life only to see a trans join your competition and miraculously beat everyone.
Just because you think you’re a female doesn’t actually mean you are.
Sport Will Eat Itself
I remember a time when I saw a piece of paper taped to a number plate on a car that read " I identify as registered". Really how far can truth and reality be stretched. I mean if I identify as a tiger would they happily house me with the other big cats at Dreamworld.
B. Hamilton continues to inspire me, but also someone that I can direct my 14 year old son as a point of reference. That’s a well considered post, I may or may not agree with all of it, I’ll keep my opinion to my self at this stage, mainly due to not being exposed to all sides of this story, but BH well done.
I would imagine those that speak out come from a religious bent.
Because Bethany is talking exclusively about hypotheticals including defending a daughter (that she does not have) who wants to be a professional surfer (which is not her decision) but will be placed in an unfair playing field (which doesn't exist).
Everyone should be able to live their life their way and not have other people morals or thought process dictate how they live.
WSL has shown itself to be woke, will be interesting when the 1st trans surfer wants to compete...it's easy to speak up for something untill your pay packet and lifestyle can be taken away in a flash. I reckon the girls will not stay unified.
Just like the last three years?
I’m with you on this one.
Roadkill is all of the sudden a champion of bodily autonomy.
Surely he posted that just to troll you Burleigh!
what a hypocrite
I fail to see why this is even such an important issue.
However I do view the irony on both sides of the argument.
People claiming the end of days over the sacred linchpin of our nation 'SPORT' being violated by the potential of a few people playing in another division. Who cares....? Sport just isn't that important to me personally.
And the other side of the coin being people wanting to make themselves a Eunuch.
Go for it if you desire but I personally don't see it as a very practical thing to do.
This whole trans debate seems to be something that is disproportionately discussed and debated by Caucasian people who thankfully have nothing more important too worry about eg food, shelter and safety etc. They must have a right laugh at us overseas...
Life will move on either way though.
The Woke Surf League. I now identify as a prone stand up non-binary paddle boarder. Waiting for my division!
This approach seems fair
"The International Swimming Federation (FINA) announced Sunday it will not permit individuals who began transitioning after the age of 11 to compete as women. FINA oversees swimming competitions around the world and sets event rules for the Olympic Games.
"Because of the performance gap that emerges at puberty between biological males as a group and biological females as a group, separate sex competition is necessary," FINA said. "Without eligibility standards based on biological sex or sex-linked traits, we are very unlikely to see biological females in finals, on podiums, or in championship positions.""
Yeah, that does seem way fairer or at least the best compromise.
Was saying this to a buddy earlier. This is a much fairer option
Card caring lefty and I concede this is a tricky issue with merit on both sides but this seems a reasonable option to me
I was quite surprised they didn't adopt the swimming guidelines.
Why isnt it as simple as basing it on your birth gender ? I get it if you want to change no worries. But if you are or are wanting to become a profssional athlete then as level a playing field as possible please.
On a related matter - do women ever become men and compete professionally in the mens ranks ? Just wondering. No judgement, dont really care.
So.... man boobs don't count, bummer. ;)
I want to hear from Tyler Wright.
How often do they take the testosterone tests? My testosterone levels seem to elevate when surrounded by fit young women.
You can have a dick and balls but as long as you can provide your own evidence (because the WSL have said they won't do any testing) that your testosterone levels are low for 12 months, the WSL will classify you as a woman lol.
I think we are all a bit choked up with inclusive joy at this development.
To think we may one day see two talented trans women battle it out at Trestles for the Women's World Title!
Or, millions may one day enjoy an all trans women final at Wimbledon, after two unknowns storm up from the trials with not a single game dropped by either player on the way!
Inspirational future possibilities await for Women's sport and the Wozzle again leads the way.
I had thought that requiring trans women surf in the WCT switchfoot as part of the transition process to have a truly fresh start in the sport might be fairer to all but then realized I was stuck in old thinking and re-educated myself.
Wait until Tyson Fury lowers his testosterone for 12 months and competes in the women's heavy weight boxing division! Equality!
I just find it completely ridiculous the fear around these hypothetical scenarios that have not and in all likelihood will not happen. I mean it comes from the same fragile place as assuming you could, as an amateur male, storm up the women’s Wimbledon tournament and beat Serena Williams. Get a grip. It’s not that easy.
In tennis the gap between men and women is very substantial. Serena herself has said so:
Serena and Venus both lost to 200 plus ranked male player way back
Good on you for calling out this strange fantasy through these comments, HT. Bethany asks a reasonable hypothetical at the start of this really unfortunate video - "How is it playing out in other sports?" Sadly and ignorantly she hasn't actually tried to fiund out.
In every other sport she's listed with similar trans inclusion guidelines, there aren't elite trans women dominating all the cis women all of a sudden. There's no reason to believe it will happen in surfing. And if it does, guess what? They can adjust the guidelines based on this new evidence to calibrate the fairness, and bang - problem at the elite level is solved. In the case of trans swimmer Lia Thomas, before she was banned by the swimming policy change, her last (and most trained for) meet ended as follows:
"Thomas competed in three individual events: the 500, 200 and 100 freestyle. She made all three championship finals (A-finals in swimming parlance), making her a three-time All-American. She placed eighth in the 100, tied for fifth in the 200 and won the 500, finishing 9 seconds off Ledecky's record."
The most hyped trans woman swimmer was 9 seconds off the record set by a cis woman (for context, the gap between the men's WR and women's WR is 16 seconds, so that's another half a 'gender gap' away). And then Thomas was banned shortly after by a rule change. It's hardly a generation of female swimmers getting their dreams destroyed; in the most explosive of the events, the 100, Thomas was dead last in the final.
On the other side, a trans woman could dedicate her whole life to training and developing herself, meet the eligibility requirements, then, the moment they look like having a winning career, be dismissed from the competition with a new ruling. Imagine having that hanging over your head while trying to pursue the sport you love.
I forecast there will be absolutely no systemic ramifications at the elite level of women's surfing as a result of this decision. If multiple trans women meeting these transition criteria come in and storm 5 consecutive world titles starting next year, I will happily eat my words, and you know what? If that happens, they can be disqualified by the WSL with a single policy change and a "we got it wrong".
What's really unfair is that a big name like Hamilton making these big, 'concerned' public statements, about a problem that hasn't manifested yet AT ALL, drums up heaps of generic transphobia (littering this comment thread) which is much more likely to trickle down, insult or include the majority of trans people who aren't trying to be elite athletes, don't give a shit about the Tour, and just want to exist in their normal lives without reading comments like these in the surfing community.
The overt homophobia among the surfing community was a horrible thing to experience growing up as a gay surfer and it still exists. If any trans folk are out there reading this: I hope to see you in the lineup :-)
From a straight, white, cis male in the 81% demographic, thank you. Great post.
I agree that such scenarios are low probability. In management speak they would be "low probability high impact events".
However, we as individuals and as a society, over time, are surrounded by an endless stream of low probability high impact events.
A useful way to gauge decisions of consequence is to consider the improbable outcomes. If the impact of the unlikely is judged okay or manageable for the few and / or many, then the decision makes more sense.
Somewhere, in some form of sport, the improbable high impact event will occur in the next decade and be firmly in the media spotlight. Many may prefer no spotlight.
That seems like a really rational perspective. Unfortunately it doesn't represent the current town square mentality and "dialogue" whereby someone with obvious religious bias has raised a whole lot of "fair and honest questions" in a video that simply allows vitriol to spew out of the worst of society unchecked - and she's praised for being brave. And again, non of these hypothetical, low probability scenarios are actually a thing. They are currently a fantasy. Yet here we are, just below the surface of a free spirited, open minded "community" of surfers, swimming through evangelical sewerage, scared that the world as we know it is collapsing.
In Fiji, i think it's the 4th born son identifies as a female to carry the role of a daughter if there are no daughters born. Or something along those lines.
I knew one such legend, Mitchy! Michelle. A lovely softly spoken spirit.
But when we played volleyball, you'd get outta Mitchys way when she was smashing the ball over the net back at you.
Mitchy had huge guns. You didn't wanna mess with Mitchy's power. He was a big Fijian male that identified as a female.
I think there may be similar problems arising in sports. How that translates to surfing is probably different altogether...but currently there's some observable differences in male and female surfers and their power ratios although that gap is closing.
Steph and Tyler can throw as much spray and put in as much power as Parko and Trent Munro respectively.
It would be different if it was boxing or a contact sport. I can see it being less of an issue in the future, but maybe now's not the time while there may be a perceived or real disadvantage to each gender.
It seems to me it's more about the WSL choosing politically motivated agendas to appeal to a woke audience, hence a business motivated decision rather than a morally motivated one.
I may be wrong.
I agree with above, a good time to choose words respectfully.
I hope this post comes across that way.
Its complicated, however some Polynesian cultures have navigated some social issues before......
Eg. In Samoa some genders are known as Fa’afafine and Fa’afatama,
"Many third gender individuals hold integral roles within societies and are well respected for their strength, hard work, and ability to discuss taboo topics. On the island of Samoa, there are four recognized cultural genders: female, male, fa’afafine, and fa’afatama. "
"Fa’afafine and fa’afatama are fluid gender roles that move between male and female worlds. These third and fourth gender groups tend to care for elders in the community and educate others about sex, a topic considered taboo in public conversations for male and female genders."
"Within a Western and Christian ideological framework, individuals who identify as a third gender are often thought of as part of the LGBTQ community. This classification actually distorts the concept of a third gender and reflects a culture that historically recognizes only two genders based on sex assigned at birth - male or female – and anyone acting outside of the cultural norms for their sex may be classified as homosexual, gender queer, or transgender, among other classifications. In societies that recognize a third gender, the gender classification is not based on sexual identity, but rather on gender identity and spirituality. Individuals who identify with a cultural third gender are, in fact, acting within their gender/sex norm. "
It has been estimated that 1–5% of Samoans identify as faʻafafine.
According to SBS news, there are up to 3,000 faʻafafine currently living in Samoa.
PS Im not a robot; though Hollywood suggest an AI may be in future comps ....
Bethany is courageous for eloquently stating her opinion and I believe a majority of the surfers watching WSL events agree with her as I do.
I beleive the majority of surfers watching WSL events have a very narrow view of what surfing is, was and should be.
In 2012, the ISA handed the International Olympic Committee (IOC) a document that accounted for around 35 million worldwide surfers, the largest ever figure for participation within the sport of surfing.
The study also revealed the distribution of worldwide participants by continent, as follows:
America: 13.5 million surfers;
Oceania: 6.5 million surfers;
Asia: 6 million surfers;
Europe: 4.5 million surfers;
Africa: 4.5 million surfers;
The document also highlighted a significant participation gap between men (81 percent)
and women (19 percent),
with 60 percent of all surfers with ages above 25 years and
40 percent aged between 1 and 24.
There’s a point somewhere in these figures isn’t there?
A few million surfers may have different points of view.
Shout out to all the trans surfers out there ! May you slice through this comment section, like you slice through a wave.
Having clear policies that show pathways forward for trans and gender diverse surfers is important to increasing participation across all levels of the surfing community... Anything that encourages more diversity be that gender, sexuality or cultural background is a good thing for surfing and everyone who does it.
Would recommend the surfing australia's gender diversity policy companion guide for anyone who might like a little more reading, from credible sources: https://assets.surfinginaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2021/12...
100% agree. Glad there's a tangible pathway now. Growing up gay and seeing homophobia rife in surfing culture was horrible and the same attitudes are sadly on display here today.
I hope any trans people out there reading this thread know they have allies in the lineup. That document is a good little read and covers everything that will matter for the vast majority of surfers - respect others, have a blast.
To the WSL: If you go woke you go broke!
Good on you Bethany for speaking about this injustice, I would bet there is not one professional woman surfer in favour of this.
I’ve got no problem with a transgender person competing in womens tour events as long as I can gamble on it.
Prize money will attract surfers from low socio economic countries trying to break out of the poverty cycle.
Fear for the development of young up and coming pro female surfers.
The current up and coming crew are great to watch.
I believe that a bloke who has tried and failed to make it as a male surfer on the men's side of the draw, who then takes testosterone blockers for the sole purpose of "pretending" to be female (as opposed to someone who has spent their entire life identifying as a female) just to go try and win a world title against Carissa Moore, is probably in exactly the right place on the WSL - the toxic, horse shit, sole destroying, commercially nauseating, apple watch wearing, egotistical cesspit that it is.
Noting the chances of this actually occurring are miniscule.
So many uninformed dingleberries in this comments section
I wouldn't claim to be particularly informed myself, but it's so obvious some of you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
The 65th Grammies on tonight reflect unity & harmony in the art of making music.
Awards are given for different categories...
there are many winners and talented people recognised... living and dead
Bring on the World Surfer awards captured on film/vid, comp, etc....
M.Peterson/T. Curren award for the best cutback ....
Best threaded tube Award: S.Thompson/M.R/ K.Slater/ JJF, etc
Maybe go ahead with it and introduce some form of a handicap that come's with a new format.....similar to weight in horse racing? Fuck know's.... the matter's not going to go away, and it has to be dealt with in some way that work's to the benefit of all competitor's.
a big handicap is treating 'pro' surfing as a sport; limited in time, location & imagination.
Another sad but true pr.wsl story of 'pro' surfing unfolded today at Pipeline.... gender neutral?
Q. would they have sent the guys out today if..its maybe 2-3ft & knowing its going to be at least 5-6ft tomorrow?
1st up today the WSL Co-ord stated that it's a good wind day... but....sets were 10m apart.... 30min heats... so maybe 2-3 possible waves for each female surfer per heat.
max 6waves x 4heats ....= max possible 24 waves; ridden over 2hrs ...(possibly closeouts on shallow reef),
So whom ever managed to catch a makable wave won the heat.....
I just opened a can, where did all these worms come from?
I'm with trans people for equal rights and respect.
I'm also with Bethany for bravely voicing a *dangerous*, but sound opinion. I don't see how it could be fair to have late-transitioning trans women competing against biologically female athletes.
Competition is about differentiating on the basis of performance - performance which is largely the result of effort. If that effort is given an unfair advantage through things like drugs, illegal equipment, or biological sex, it surely undermines the point of competition.
Why the f%$k does EVERYTHING have to be so f#$king complicated these days? I give up.
I think in general, most people these days are sympathetic to the causes of minority’s when they have a full understanding of both, the issue and the effects of prejudice against the person.
The biggest issue for me is most people don’t understand, nor can they identify with the trans issue. Furthermore the issue has been further clouded by the need for use of the correct “pronoun”, which has created a WTF? from most people.
I can recommend the book “Honeybee” by Craig Silvey for a bit of understanding of how a trans person feels or for an alternative view listen to Dave Chappelle’s stand up comedy specials on Netflix.
It would be logical to me that these initial issues would need to be addressed and understood fully before the deeper complexities of how trans people move forward in their new gender are decided.
It kind of feels like with pronouns and sport etc they’re putting the cart before the horse.
Your last line: It definitely feels like the social changes are getting ahead of the institutional ones, and the institutions are struggling to respond.
Seeing as womens surfing belongs to women and not the WSL , I wonder if they asked the girls to vote on it privately and democratically…or just dicktated to them how it’s gunna be…..in my mind though…no womb…no wombman….simple.
What about women with Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser syndrome? Women who've had a hysterectomy? You haven't really thought this through, have you.
"no womb…no wombman….simple."
Exactly! Born either male or female, that's what you are I'm sorry, no matter what stuff/drugs/knives might be done to try to alter that basic fact. Give them a seperate competition. Too hard? Not enough of them bla bla bla...and so? That's how it is, life's tough. Biological women should not be disadvantaged by this crap. Wear a bikini and surf in the mens ffs, because they are MEN! Ugh! This came home to me years ago when first in Philippines. Would I accept a BJ off a "ladyboy"? Some guys would cos they "look like a girl" and that's enough. I never could cos no matter what they have done or how they look they are still MEN! A good question for you guys to ask yourself haha!! Puts it in very simple terms. Men comp, women comp, 'other' comp. Done and dusted.
Perhaps they could also add a Moron Comp for you to compete in Mixie? Judging based variety of maneuvers and speed, power and the flow of utter crap.
"no womb…no wombman….simple." Simply wrong, the etymology of the word woman has nothing to do with the possession of a uterus
Pointing out differences leads to Xenophobia. We are all human and we need to remind ourselves of that, or we get lost in these differences.
If only we were all to identify as Humans instead of, (insert whatever here), we would see that we are all 100% identical. Just one species - Homo sapien.
Yes we have different colour skin, religions, ideologies, cultures, genders etc, but we have far more in common than those few things that separate us.
We all live, love and die so lets realize we are on this crazy train-ride together. Lets play nicely and show kindness and respect to each other
The name "Homo sapiens" means 'wise man' or 'knowledgeable man'.
hmmmmm... makes you wonder some days
Its almost worth transitioning just to get to surf pipe with only a handfull of people out!
Womens sports will suffer for years to come if this is how things are headed.
You can do what you want, transition to make your life happy i couldnt care less.
But in doing so you forfeit the ability to compete in womens sports - its that simple.
First time I’ve ever seen her open her mouth without mentioning god, christianity or faith.
Call me cynical but the well known christian stands up, asks a whole heap of pointless questions, suggests ostracising the trans competitors into a leper colony league and I’m the only one that smells a great big religious rat!?
Hey she has the right to villainise vulnerable people, just like Folau does.
Free speech man (except if your name is Greta and you want a healthy environment).
You may be onto something as Hamilton's publisher backed her move thus:
"Trent Talbot, CEO of Brave Books in Texas, which recently published Hamilton’s children’s book, told Fox News Digital on Sunday, “What an act of bravery. I stand with Bethany Hamilton and her choice to not participate in the World Surf League if they allow men to compete in the women’s division.”
Talbot added, “God designed males and females differently with a purpose – and when we reject this, we reject God."
Hamilton may be motivated by an ugly religious creed, though she didn't state anything in her speech. Nevertheless, the trans in sport issue has more angles than the religious one, and taking a stand similar to Hamilton's doesn't automatically make anyone a religious oppressor. See FINA's ruling for instance.
I think the fact that she didn’t state anything specifically regarding religion would have had as much thought put into it as using the term ‘male bodied’. It’s just more passive aggressive anti Trans dog whistling about a non existent problem. The squeaky wheels do it for God but know damn well that the whistle will be heard and picked up by the non christian anti trans, as we’ve seen with some answers here, but any means to an end right?
Perhaps, but do you think there's any legitimate criticism of trans in women's sport that isn't based in religion or hate?
I'm neither religious nor anti-trans, yet I think there's a fairness issue. It's worth watching Jenny Brockie's SBS work to get both sides of that story. She speaks to some trans athletes who are aware of their advantage, having competed against men for years, trained with men, and had their bodies permanently shaped by those experiences.
That concern isn't rooted in religion or hate, it's biological.
Bethany Hamilton isn't 'brave' for giving voice to her religious beliefs, nor has she made any sacrifices as she hasn't been on either the WSL QS or CT in years save the odd wildcard here or there, but culture war aside there are people with legit concerns also standing in her corner.
Just actually bothered watching the video and she doesn't come across as being guided by religion or any kind of prejudice, to be fair to her.
Having a separate division would probably not work in a sport as niche as surfing, but nor would any option really.
I would imagine there are those that raise issues of being born ‘male bodied’ and then transitioning and competing in the women’s comps with no other motivation than fairness. In this case though I’d have given it a bit more cred if it came from anybody but the well known christian. Indeed the final quote from her publisher Mr Talbot that you put up is just a bit of a give away.
I still believe it is the same dog whistling as our favourite ranga used when saying we were in danger of being swamped by Asians, who never swamped us, and then changed the fear mongering to the swamping being done by Muslims. Trans women in surfing may have been an issue with the level the ladies were at in the early days but being born with more testerone than Carissa or Steph is not a walk up start to winning a title. Maybe a legit concern with who knocks out who in qualifiers I suppose. What would I know though, I still think winning a title by dropping in is a dog act!
Thanks Henno you are not the only one picking up this vile odour.
Im not religious but im smelling a pretty vile bigoted anti Christian odour in this area.
Will be like sending a cat in amongst the pigeons.
Making threats is pretty distasteful...absolutely nothing brave posting a video to social media.
Speaking what you believe and standing up for your beliefs is a good thing and should be encouraged and celebrated...nothing wrong there.
Doesn't she only get to surf WSL events with a wild card?
If I was the WSL I would acknowledge her threat and never let her surf another WSL event. Sayonara
Yes, threatening to pull her support and participation. Making it a me or them scenario…she brings nothing to table, having a hissy fit because she doesn’t agree with the WSL.
She has outed herself as a puppet, reading from a script….anyone thinks it is not based off her religious belief is delusional.
Argh okay thats the angle, i will have to re watch video again but didnt pick that up.
It's funny how people are making an issue of her being a Christian, for all we know if she was an atheist she would feel the same and if she was a muslim im betting you people would never dare bring religion into it.
Its pretty simple if your born a male you will always have some characteristic of being a male because biologically you will sill be a male, many of these aspects may provide an advantage, nobody is saying trans people cant compete but its unfair for the girls to surf against biological males in exactly the same way it would be unfair for very young kids say under 10 to surf against 16 to 30 year olds.
IMHO the easy solution is to say anyone can compete in the Mens division just call it an open division.
Of course most trans surfers wouldn't like this, because it means they wouldn't have any possibility of having an unfair advantage, which is the whole point and problem with biological males competing against biological females.
Completely agree with you there IndoD can not understand how our future of mankind and or sports competitions will possibly be worth watching if these "woke" people take it any further.
They may feel like a women or other gender inside but they have BITS and muscles and hair and just no damn operation removing bits of tissue will change them completely.
No taking hormones or whatever else they do.
Its just not cricket if trans ex-males compete against naturally born women. and these wishes of wokeness happens to any sport imo.
Sadly, there is something for WSL to lose. What is often forgotten when it comes to inclusion is that people with disability also fall under this umbrella. I guess this topic is not as ‘hot’ as some other, more extreme elements (like trans). Many organisations are struggling to provide a quality inclusive workplace for people with disability and WSL has/had a great ambassador in Bethany Hamilton. If a disabled person can charge big waves what is stopping regular organisations from providing inclusive opportunities to disabled employees? In this context, WSL is a leader and will lose a lot. Overall, it’s not a good situation, I’d say it’s lose-lose on both sides.
Oh the irony
Westerly Windina sure sparked a lot of news and talk on surf forums but nobody really gave a toss a year later.Seemed like a weird thing to do, get the cut but its a personal thing i guess and only Drouyn knows whether she really was always a women trapped in a mans body.
Being a ex pro surfer and pioneer or pro surfing and contests formats which every contest still uses to this day just made it a bigger deal than other trans people getting the cut i guess..Anyway i dont think Windina should be allowed to compete as a women even though she is too old, but in her peak it shouldn't be allowed, it would be just plain unfair.
Kelly getting the cut to get 11 world womens titles? sure why not. he could but won't.
Bethany out surfs every guy I know anyway.
Get her point tho
Keala Kennely copped a bit of flak last year after voicing her concerns over the same topic after the W.A loggers event, in which a trans woman won .
“This is like a really serious topic. That’s really hard to talk about without getting people fired up and angry. This is a big topic and I hope I don’t step my foot in it right now. You know when it comes to inclusivity and including trans athletes into women’s surfing, it’s a very complex topic and I have a lot of feelings about this as a female athlete and I’m all about inclusivity, I’m very pro trans, I’m also very pro women and very pro women’s equality. So when it comes to letting trans women compete in women’s competitive sporting events it’s really hard to square those three, it's hard to be all those three things at the same time. You know, I think we need to start having these conversations about how do we include trans people in sports while still making sure it’s fair for women and not taking opportunities away from women. People keep treating this like it’s a very black-and-white issue, you’re either for it or against it. You know, I think we need to stop being so polarizing and start having these difficult conversations. Okay, how do we make it inclusive and still make sure it’s fair for everyone? You know, when I started pushing back on allowing trans athletes to compete in female sports the entire gay community tried to cancel me for that. They started calling me a TERF and I didn’t even know what a TERF was. I had to Google it, it’s like Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist. And I’m just like, I’m not a TERF. I just wanted to be fair for everybody, I‘m all about inclusion, I’m very pro trans and I’m very pro, we’re all humans, we all deserve, if you identify as a human you deserve the same rights as every other human, period, full stop, okay. But as somebody who has fought so hard in women’s sports to get some level of equality, you know and equal opportunity for women in sports. You know, like here in the US they actually repealed this piece of legislature [legislation] called Title IX that was put in place back in the 70s and offered all these protections to female athletes to give them more equality, to give them more equal access, so then to allow trans women to compete in women’s sports they actually repealed that legislation. So even though it was a big win for trans people, and we celebrated that for them as a female athlete we weren’t sharing the same enthusiasm. We felt like we got something taken away, somethings stripped from us. It was a threat to our sport as we know it and to our equality and protections. So I just think this is a really heated topic that we need to start discussing. In a way that’s not polarizing, in a way that’s just coming to the table with understanding and ideas. I don’t have a solution for this, but it’s not as black-and-white as: include or exclude. Like I said I think everybody should be included. I think trans people should be included in everything, but it shouldn’t be at the detriment to female athletes. It shouldn’t take away. You shouldn’t give rights while taking away from another group. It's a very, very complex issue, it's a much bigger conversation. We need to start being brave enough to have these conversations in a productive, nonaggressive, nonjudgmental way of like okay let’s just come to the table and let’s see how we can figure this out. There needs to be a solution to this that is fair and inclusive to everyone. I don’t know what that solution is yet but.”.. K.K https://surfequity.org/keala-kennelly
Why don't they do weight divisions like boxing and have everyone in together male/female/whatever?
Or do we have more important issues going on in the world? I would say racism deserves more attention than this subject but thats just my opinion
Agreed Jasper but racism seems to be dieing with (some not all) boomers or older gens..As far as i can tell anyway, seems kids these days are not racist at all, well around here anyway.
Thats great to hear and I somewhat agree yet my point is that racism affects way more people around the planet than the one of if a trans person can surf in an event. I'm not down playing their plight however it's just gets more airplay and attention compared to larger social injustices that have been ongoing for decades/centuries......
Actually just played a poker game with a racist Aussie on the table, aged around 23 i guess, with some Chinese and Japanese other players on the table.So im wrong racism is rife.He was telling them to go to their own country the moron, its an online game and they are in their own country.Bogan racists are fucked.
I haven’t found any WSL pros come out in support of BH. Has anyone seen or heard of any vocal support offered to her?
A whole lot of silence is all I hear.
A few have started to express support e.g., Bettylou Sakura Johnson
Have any of them vocally condemned BH for her comments?
Sex/Gender are not binaries, and therefore, need not be the only way to approach sports segregation.
Performance could be the deciding factor, and sports organisations could have eligibility criteria tailored to the demands of each sport. Categories could be based on 'athletic gender' rather than sex. To ensure equity, athletes could be divided into categories by using a performance-based metric. Determining a category could be done with a range of measurable quantities that directly affects performance for a particular sport, (for example, height and weight; Haemoglobin levels; Maximal oxygen uptake, etc.). We don't ask athletes how they feel about their weight, they get on a scale to find out. An algorithm has even been proposed by some researchers to sort athletes into athletic categories to ensure fair competition, however the science behind this approach still has some way to go. Not saying this is the answer, but we have to stop the venom because there are people from the Trans community who are going through enough challenges as it is. Work with each other, not against each other. That's why I don't like Bethany Hamilton et al.'s commentary. It is based on reactionary politics, a profound lack of knowledge of the sex/gender/biology/sociology milieu, and no demonstrated concern for people who by all accounts face exceptionally challenging lives in most societies (I'm not sure what happened to her Christian ethics in this case). People are going to have to pull together to work on this issue. It's not the be all and end all for competitive surfing, which has such a miniscule fanbase it all appears to an outsider like an over-reaction. Competitive surfing has an opportunity - given its boutique size - to do something really progressive here. I found reading this article interesting (where the idea above comes from):
HARPER, J. 2018. Athletic gender. Law and Contemporary Problems 80 (139): 139–53.
"One of the largest reef-dwelling fish in the world (and a highly-prized Asian seafood), the giant grouper (Epinephelus lanceolatus) was presumed to follow the reproductive pattern of most groupers, starting as females then turning into males when much older and larger."
"Now international research led by USC’s GeneCology Research Centre has discovered that the giant grouper is a diandric protogynous hermaphrodite, which means that some individuals become males without going first through the female phase."
This is a great, really exciting and divisive hot topic and all but did you know that sloths can hold their breath longer than dolphins?
Did you know that historically left handed people were considered sinister (meaning signals for the devil) & forced to write with the other hand until the 1970's (right or wrong?)
Leonardo De Vinci wrote his text left handed in code & in reverse...revealed by only by a mirror...
"When da Vinci returned to Rome he was accused of ‘unseemly conduct’ (and perhaps witchcraft) and ceased his anatomical studies. The world had to wait a generation before Vesalius published his definitive account of these studies in human anatomy in De humani corporis fabrica in 1543. "
Reference: British Journal of Medicine
My view is the elite sporting authorities / panels (e.g. Olympic level) need to make some definitive decisions on this issue based on carefully considered scientific data that most people can agree on. The decisions can then should be used as precedents for lesser (but nonetheless important) sporting codes e.g. NRL, AFL, WSL to guide them in their rule/decision making.
This is a medical sporting issue not political nor religious unless of course your agenda is cultural / religious wars
The Trans War on Tomboys
"To be an adult means accepting loss, pain, and responsibility.
Our culture has become increasingly unable to do this.
We now live in an infantile, padded world where everyone is treated as fragile and in need of protection from potential upset.
But this cosseting is more harmful than what it seeks to prevent."
I agree but at the same time, I think there's a push-back against it and I see a lot of parents doing an amazing job, full of love and patience and being a parent first and a friend second.
there is push back, now... and praise the gods for that...
even in schools now, the focus is on 'building resililence', as opposed to the 'everyone wins a trophy' we must fill the 'empty vessels' with self esteem thinking of the recent past
I think the important thing, that I've seen hardly anyone point out in these crazy heated times, is that the 'everyone wins a trophy' generation, are the ones now in university; leaving university; and finding a place, and a voice, in the 'real' world...
the mollycoddled centre of the universe generation, have come of age at a time when social media and 'activism' are more pervasive and perversive than ever...
universities know their 'clients', know their wants and needs, and accomodate this (overly so) at a time when 'the business' of education is also at it's most pervasive and perversive time ever...
(think privatisation, inequality, and competition)
its not that long ago I was at uni - being a mature age entrant - but even then, lecturers and the system commanded a certain respect, a certain authority... having spent way too long completing my degree... I saw this change myself, as the business of education took over in so many ways... the uni's even openly talk about it... the targets, the marketing, the accomodating...
combined with social media, this generation, the system, the politics, and your fave - postmodernism... have all come of age to create a perfect storm of self indulgance and self centredness...
narcicism, a hardman might say...
the community is dead, the collective is dead, the collective good is dead... the atomisation of ip and all of the above have created a culture of tribes and 'allies' ...a culture of us and them...
and a fuck anyone who doesn't conform to my world view
commonality is dead
Ummm while there's some truth to your university story I think you'll find its quite a bit more complex than that and not all doom and gloom and there is plenty of community, collective, etc. and narcissism and social media, and postmodernism etc are critiqued and debate (which is the point)
you're right cliff, its not all doom and gloom, and I didn't intend to be so doomy gloomy...
I'm actually quite positive, as the pushback is real, and it is across the board...
and just in time...
I think it's a fair appraisal of where we are at currently though, what we are dealing with...
yes there are new collective/s, new community/s developing...
commonality, not so much
Still haven’t seen any support from other pros…still silence.
Jan 1997 Battle of the Sexes (Goat vs Trouble) Sundown at The Typhoon Lagoon
8 pros competed for AUD (2021) $110k Prize in Disney Wave Pool Comp
This comp featured the first "Pro" match up of #1 ASP Male (vs) #1 ASP (First) MILF.
All got that ...
1997 DisneyWorld hired their young gun Slater to mop the pool with the Milf...
Thank swellnet for the only surviving Vid link to Jan 1997 Battle of the Sexes Comp!
(Not joking!) Eastern Surf Mag Archives are now all Paywall...
Salvaged this special viewing from another swellnet wavepool forum > old tbb post.
If ya like this Vid ~ (Just don't lose this link!)...be real hard to access it thru ESM archives.
Here goes...When you wish upon a Star...
Hardcore Blood Bath Flick may upset Blokey Blokes / Gurly Chix / L.G.B.T.Q.I.A. (Sorry!)
Cue here for... Bully Slater (vs) Lil' Lisa (Look away Gromz)
[1:34] Slater laughs at dead-shit mate's rude Jokes about his MILF opponent!
[1:38- 1:51] MILF surfs hot & paddles over to Slater's Goons to cop a mouthful of Vomit?
[1:58] Goons put the heavy on Lil' Lisa to give diva Slater a fighting chance to scoop the pool.
Experts turned Walt Disney in his pickle jar during Clash of the Titans! (Sorry to drugged out Goldie Titans!)
Jan 2023 Women's Agenda : "6 Women competing in The Eddie"...reads (The Edith?)
Layne : "Stoked to see this happen in my lifetime and will be cheering you all on! You got this!"
Both 4x Chix World Champ in 1997 + 7x Chix World Champ in 2023 are stoked with mixed sex comps!
Reckon that's pretty solid Pro Chix support for mixed comps of any race or sex or what ever!
I don't want babies, I want the right to have babies~ Monty Python Life of Brian