Australia - you're standing in it

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Sheepdog started the topic in Friday, 18 Sep 2020 at 11:51am

The "I can't believe it's not politics" thread.

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freeride76 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 9:55am

Christalmighty, talk about spewing propaganda.

thats straight out of a CCP press release.

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gsco Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 9:57am

@freeride76 you may like to read https://www.principles.com/the-changing-world-order/ by Ray Dalio (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Dalio), one of the most successful global hedge fund managers of all time, who built from the ground up the world's largest hedge fund...

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freeride76 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 10:15am

Yeah, I've read that, and am familiar with Ray Dalio.

Curious why you cited him though, I would have thought he was one of the classic western foreign policy experts you deride as being the main agents of negative framing of Chinese power.

What concepts that Dalio is presenting do you believe buttress your arguments?

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freeride76 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 10:21am

Also, any open, fair minded reading of Dalio's assessment of China would confirm Chinese hegemony (at least in the western pacific) as a nightmare for humanity.

Is that the impression you meant to convey?

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Blowin Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 10:21am

brutus wrote: I agree with GSCO , but China are playing a long game for world domination and payback to the Western Colonial powers for invading China.

Raping and pillaging of the country and then got the people addicted to opium , destroying the Chinese culture , their economy , History's a bitch when you consider China believes it's the longest continuing culture currently in existence , about 5000 years.

To think China has no chip on it's shoulder over the Colonial invasion and the treatment it received at the hands of the Japanese/English/French/Americans/Portuguese .....try looking at their position from their Historic view , easy to understand harder to accept...as our way of life is under threat from China
https://www.quora.com/Was-China-ever-colonized...........to think Australia or any of the old world colonial powers are respected by China, especially as all the Western Nations have human rights abuses in their collective closets .....

until Australia can clean up it's act in regards to Indigenous/Refugees and war crimes , anything we say to China politically is seen as us being Hypocrites , we know it , they know it...

The Western world saved China’s arse in WW2. They’d been invaded by Japan. That may not fit into the West Exclusively Bad narrative but it’s true nonetheless.

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etarip Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 10:40am

They supported the nationalists tho Blowin. While the CCP largely hid and regrouped. Once Japan was defeated the CCP re-emerged and then was able to defeat the exhausted Nationalists.

You won’t read that in the CCP’s version of history.

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brutus Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 10:50am

freeride76 wrote: Christalmighty, talk about spewing propaganda.

thats straight out of a CCP press release.

so which part of the "propaganda" don't you agree with?

It's like Hong Kong........the Poms leased the island , the lease expired , now there are Chinese that have been indoctrinated with the Poms culture , but they are Chinese and now have to exist under the CCP rule......and please don't give me the "but democracy must rule shit"....

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gsco Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 11:08am

@etarp I'm reading (and liking) everything you're writing but apologise for not directly responding to it (seem to have indirectly).

@freeride76. If you're basically asking me whether I think China as the dominant global superpower would be a disaster or they would be able to hold and manage this privileged position justly, responsibly and even "with style" then I'd say the following.

To be clear, particularly after reading Dalio's new book, the rise of China seems kind of like global warming and climate change: we're a few decades too late to stop it now...

Whether I think this will be a disaster...:

First off, Dalio doesn't make any personal judgements or opinions about whether he thinks this will be a disaster. He is just laying out the facts of the rise and fall of empires and nations over history - in terms of a number of indicators or measures of success and power - in order to understand what is currently happening. His conclusion is the rise of China to be the ruling superpower is just a natural inevitability of the ebb and flow of civilisations and empires, like it or not, and this rise is very close to being complete.

Everything I was taught in school and university in Aus, everything we read in the media, and everything we are told by our politicians, says that it would be a disaster.

But after marrying a Chinese girl and living in China with her and her family, slowly trying to read, write and speak Mandarin Chinese in order to learn history as it's written in this language, and then reading history in both languages, I'm actually in two minds about the rise of China.

I'll receive a barrage for this, but history shows that that China is a very peaceful nation, one of the most peaceful of all of history, and this is an important reason why as a people and nation China has a continuous, unbroken history, culture and civilisation of over 5000 years.

The issues of Xinjiang, Tibet, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc, are not what they seem and have long (also over 5000 year) and colourful, complicated, checkered, and ambiguous histories. These geographical areas can very validly and rightly be viewed as part of China, in this long historical context. For instance, and indeed, all of China was once ruled by Tibet...and Taiwan (particularly politically) as we know it today was created by the Chinese Nationalist government when they retreated to Taiwan after being defeated by the CCP on mainland China for the rule of China.

Also, people need to ask the question: Has China ever actually gone to war outside of its (more generally defied) boundaries with other countries? The answer is no, never.

Based on my personal experience living in China and having long and indepth conversations with successful Chinese people, and based on China's peaceful 5000+ year track record on the global stage, I don't hold huge fears of China becoming the dominant global superpower, at least not any greater than I fear an continued rule of the US... If China repeats its historical track record of peaceful coexistence with the rest of the world and of not imposing its rule on other countries outside of its boundaries, then there is possibly nothing to fear and a lot to be enthusiastic about.

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freeride76 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 11:06am

"and to show that they can be a global superpower that is better - fairer, more just, inclusive, better outcomes, etc- than the track record of the west."

That the propaganda I disagree with.

There's nothing fair or just or inclusive about the mechanisms and governance of the CCP.

they are the emptiest of empty buzz words, in the same way Stalin used to regularly use "freedom" as a rhetorical tool.

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freeride76 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 11:13am

".........a lot to be enthusiastic about."

Name 5 things or if that is too hard, just one, the average citizen in Australia should be enthusiastic about?

Social credit scores, increasing surveillance by the state (which Dalio notes without , as you correctly state, "personal judgement"), increasing control of the Chinese Diaspora etc etc, economic coercion of those in it's sphere of influence, ////

I'm guessing you see something else?

Bigger markets, more money if we learn to be a more obedient vassal state and play by Chinese rules?

Genuinely curious what we have to be enthusiastic about.

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gsco Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 11:16am

You're assuming that China will enforce these things and its overall rule and laws etc on us. China has no history of enforcing its ways on other countries...

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truebluebasher Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 11:16am

(re: san Guine's Aldi "Racism") Could be the Card Rort rearin' it's ugly head.

Aldi did sign up to the [L]Donor Card Scheme & copped a lot of flack from day one!
As Welfare Card branches Oz wide...Aborigines naturally assume supermarkets take welfare [Cards]
san Guine 'Likely'came upon a [ BasicsCard ] Denial...
ALDI claim [L] Basic Cards are not compatible with their systems..[Computer SAYS NO ]
There are NO confirmed Plans to accept these [L]Cards.
https://www.news-mail.com.au/news/aldi-you-cant-use-cashless-card-here/3...

Aldi & others are having to recalibrate checkouts from these superspreading [L]Card zones outward.
Therefore the further afield the card/s the less likely the Aldi store is compliant.
[L] Card Travel is not encouraged...Like an Ankle/Wallet Tag...we don't serve them in suburbia!
It's not a White Man's Poll issue the [L] Pollies Racial divide forges ahead...Denial of Land now Grub

Aldi would instruct checkoutchix to avoid Aboriginal Service if a "Basic/Card was (Flashed)"
Also that 'certain odd products' may not comply & if Staff see such then also Shut up Shop.
Example 1: No [Bing!] Just a Checkout Chix (vs) Tribal Elderz Tag Team brawl over a Home brew kit .
Example 2: Local Aboriginal tries for a [Gift Card] Purchase over'n'over...same brawl each time!
Example 3: Town Panels set 50%- 80% spend / age limits so each card is set different.(Security?)
Example 4: Cards only need a PIN so Blokes habitually abuse women to max out their Cards!
Ask! At what point does yer daughter stop serving the Local Gang Leader...50 or 51 x day? Thump!

For no other reason than staff safety, security & tight arse limited checkout lanes the gig is banned!
Basically yer Denial Of Service - move on policy for any sniff of a [L]Card within 100 miles.
Be like Flashing Lights out front set to neighbourhood timed Card Readers...(Everybody Duck ...Shh!)

Aboriginal in question is lucking out at Aldi stores so tries different checkouts in every far off land.
San Guine's reply...
Aboriginal : "This happens to me all the time!"... and will keep happening at ALDI & many stores.
It "happens" at most places in Town...
Bus / Train / Used Cars -White Goods-Furniture-Local made-produce are all forbidden in [L]Card Town
Exchange Rates : Cabbies $70 for [L]$100 Card or Hotels $100 = [L]$150 Card
Increase in DV/ Grog / Smokes / Drugs /Anxiety / Depression + Local Trade /Jobs/Culture all DEAD
Self Sustainability is now a crime so Gangs thrive on [L] Card economy with No [L]Pass Out.
[L] Card funds black market Cartel Leaders to run the towns...just do what they say or No [L]Card.
[L] Corp Donors feed off Tax Dollar handouts & regurgitate endless kickbacks for [L] Card Rort.

99.9% of Aussies Luv the [L] Card Dispossession & Racial Divide...**Daggydadpollskyrockets* *

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AndyM Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 11:16am

The idea that China is aiming to be "a global superpower that is better - fairer, more just, inclusive, better outcomes" is very naive.

Power in a geopolitical sense just doesn't work like that and it certainly hasn't worked like that for the Chinese in the past.

China, like the United States and every other dominant power in history, has used a combination of hard and soft power to achieve its aims and will continue to do so.

As the dominant power, China will insist on its own world order and will be looking to export its values - Chinese exceptionalism and racism is well known.

I think the main question is how far will China go, how patient will it be with soft power before it considers the use of something stronger.

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gsco Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 11:19am

AndyM your comments:
> China will insist on its own world order and will be looking to export its values - Chinese exceptionalism and racism is well known.
> I think the main question is how far will China go, how patient will it be with soft power before it considers the use of something stronger.
assumes China will deviate from its 5000 year track record on the global stage, even from its track record when it was historically the global superpower.

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freeride76 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 11:28am

"China has no history of enforcing its ways on other countries..."

????????

kidding, right?

Also, you never answered my question about what we have to be "enthusiastic" about if/when China becomes a global superpower.

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sypkan Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 11:55am

good debate keep it up, but I gotta say...

I find it incredibly dangerous, and abhorent, that some are judging some countries / superpowers on actions from hundreds of years ago, at a time when things were much more barabaric, in the desperate race to claim 'the new world', ...amongst other things... whilst totally dismissing a country that is commiting genocide and colonisation in the here and now, ...right now, in a much more stable 'enlightened' period...

that's all kinds of bullshit from my perspective, and is really really dangerous

some would be quick to call that a 'false equivelance' if the players were different...

and that is what it is, an all messed up, toxic, desperate and dangerous totally false equivelance...

a diversion...

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sypkan Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 11:49am

and one more thing...

'the west' and it's current dominance, with all its flaws, at least strives for some semblance of equality, both economically and under law. china clearly has no issue with it's huge gaps in inequality, and is even willing to stoop to slave labour, which given their economic conditions, would appear to be more about control than necessity or even greed...

'benevolant' china overlords over 'menevolant' US overlords?

yeh nah...

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garyg1412 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 11:48am

sypkan what makes you think we're less barbaric nowadays??
Just because we have cleaner more efficient ways of killing human beings doesn't make us less barbaric.

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etarip Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 11:49am

What’s this 5000 year history thing?
For all of Xi’s rewriting of history, CCP is not an extension of previous dynasties.

I think there might be a few people in northern Vietnam that would take exception to the assertion that (this) China has never invaded another country.

I wouldn’t read too much into the CCP not having been particularly adventurous militarily. That’s largely been a question of capability and capacity. We’re looking at a very different scenario now. Capability and intent exist. The militarisation of the (illegal) SCS outposts is complete.

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bonza Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 11:54am

exactly spykan. its amusing to watch the CCP defenders tie themselves up in knots trying to justify CCP nefarious motives within Australia because of actions centuries ago - before Australia even existed nonetheless. someone said it before - 2 wrongs don't make a right. its a weak, bullshit argument.

I encourage CCP apologists to read in full Clive Hamilton's 2018 book Silent Invasion. If that doesn't make you pissed off then you are not listening.

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sypkan Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 12:09pm

true garyg

but, most of the world agrees on a certain 'terms of engagement'...

and most of the world agrees on somewhat loose abitrary borders...

same with slave labour, and trade...

when you have a rogue state clearly stepping out of line, clearly going against all the lip service, sharpie lines, and hyperbole of those dastardly righties at the UN, ...and the UN shows themselves to be the useless corrupt toothless tiger many long have claimed them to be... well, then... reluctantly...

houstan we have a problem

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shoredump Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 12:56pm

It’s very clear to me that China has some seriously ill intentions along with a majority good ones. I’ve literally won a trophy for pattern recognition too, so I trust my gut. Glad to see the west wake up on a broad scale

Totally agree with the ridiculousness of turning a blind eye to genocide in 2021 because the west are guilty of it in the past. How are we less barbaric now? Well Australia now verse 200 years ago is proof. Rogue soldiers operating outside of military law is not an answer either

Curious to know the reasoning for the rapid military expansion in China and what the average Chinese citizen thinks of the SE Asia military capable port expansion we’ve seen? Assuming defence but still curios. As someone who could potentially become involved in Taiwan through the ADF it’s not far from my thoughts

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garyg1412 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 1:38pm

Yeah well we can't pick and choose our modern day barbarians now can we??

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shoredump Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 1:57pm

Yes you can. Every nation on earth has rogue criminals. It’s completely different to regimes going rogue

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brutus Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 2:28pm

sypkan wrote: and one more thing...

'the west' and it's current dominance, with all its flaws, at least strives for some semblance of equality, both economically and under law. china clearly has no issue with it's huge gaps in inequality, and is even willing to stoop to slave labour, which given their economic conditions, would appear to be more about control than necessity or even greed...

'benevolant' china overlords over 'menevolant' US overlords?
. Sypkan
yeh nah...

Sypkan , striving for equality is a noble cause , but when you consider the downfall of Democracy is lobby groups , and as BLM has shown things are not changing within......the biggest problem is the actions don't match the Rhetoric!

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AndyM Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 2:44pm

gsco - "assumes China will deviate from its 5000 year track record on the global stage, even from its track record when it was historically the global superpower."

I don't know where you get the idea that China has always been and will continue to be a pacifist power, this is clearly untrue.

The Han dynasty and the Tang dynasty had armies marching from Central Asia to the Korean peninsula.
The Song dynasty fought wars with and sought territory from rival states.
The Qing carved up and controlled Tibet and conquered today’s Xinjiang.

Of course, China today is not the same as it was 100 years ago—let alone 1,000 years,
but clear patterns of a consistent worldview emerge that are likely to shape Beijing’s perceptions and projection of power in the modern world.

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AndyM Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 2:45pm

As an aside, I'm really appreciating the lack of memes and sledging in this conversation, it's a nice change.

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bonza Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 2:46pm

"the downfall of Democracy is lobby groups"...

CCP operatives make up a very effective, powerful component of lobby groups who target our politicians and our democratic institutions.

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freeride76 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 3:02pm

Chinas "peaceful track record on the global stage" might be a piece of easily dismantled propaganda but there's no person alive or dead who would make the claim the CCP has been peaceful towards its own citizens.

Mao's Great Leap Forwards was unquestionably one of the most brutal and barbaric acts of terror and mass murder ever inflicted by a leader/state on it's own peoples.

While Xi Xinping might lack the bloodthirsty dimensions of Mao's reign his dictatorial instincts and methods and unrelenting thirst to quell dissent wherever it appears and by whatever means necessary make him a figure to be extremely queasy about.

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Jelly Flater Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 3:23pm

Us ‘Aussies’ are a funny bunch... We are mostly all immigrants or descendants of immigrants, or descendants of criminals ;) Some of us haves mixed heritage and some are relatives of what we now refer to as ‘First Nation people’....

And in China, most are of Han ethnicity but there are multitudes of peoples of diverse backgrounds from varied regions, each with rich and complex histories that have individual cultural rituals and differing ways of life. Over thousands of years and, quite miraculously, this whole enormous region is finally almost one empire again.
I say ‘finally’ because - as us Aussies pretend to know - being proud of your culture and your heritage is important to most people as it often reinforces a sense of self and it validates a ‘way of life’. And that way of life is particularly sacred if you aren’t too knowledgeable or respectful of other peoples culture, especially if, let’s say, they inhabit a land on the other side of the farkn planet! ;)

So... when we honour and pay tribute to our fallen heroes and veterans we remember and reminisce of times when others underwent great sacrifice in order to allow us the freedoms we supposedly now have. We proudly hold these things dear as humans and for some reason forget that this is something all people do - no matter what race or religion, ethnicity or ideology. Get it. It’s something WE all have in common.

So we can jibberish forever about bloody CCP and historical truths or untruths and say who is more bloodthirsty and who is or was or even could be another colonial power to behold... We can also compare atrocities of the past or the now or prospective future.

Try remember us Aussies are proud, resilient and have a pretty straight forward ‘don’t fuck with us or else’ attitude. It also is confronting and challenging when someone comes at us with seemingly that same bravado and even a little concerning when it’s maybe... um... China ;)

What I’m getting at is that the history of China that we so willingly challenge is akin to someone challenging the Anzac spirit or the battles ‘we’ fought and the historical significance relative to that being a part of ‘us’ as a people. We all grow up hearing of and being inspired by courageous feats - and more often than not - courageous feats involving the resilience of a people or culture in the face of a prospective threat that could destroy or replace that people or culture.

Now, I’m sure as shit not a lot of Chinese care for our history or have a clue about our supposed version of events in relation to the colonisation of this country etc. But that doesn’t mean we can’t try get a better understanding of the context of today’s situation by trying to gain an insight into the reality of how the west (akin to the crusades of yesteryear and the Middle East today) have repeatedly meddled with China as an allied invading and occupying force and just, maybe just, one or two Chinese policy makers are more than fond of ‘their’ take on that historical truth;)

The people of China don’t want war and the people of Australia don’t want it. The governments of each respective country are as bad as each other and here we are trying to make sense of it on our iPhones that were designed in the US and assembled in China ;)
We rely on China to be a trading partner. Yes, they are getting bigger or have become bigger than we may possibly like. Yes, some of their food is delicious. Yes, they have a rich history that as Aussies we don’t care too much for.
And yes, China hysteria is real.

Atleast try and take comfort in the fact that our future will be shared and it’s just maybe not going to be all our way or the way we’d exactly like it to be.

I’d suggest reading some Lao Tzu.

And for all those CCP fearing mongoloids - imagine the Chinese people viewed us as a whole country of mini sco mo minions the way we assume they truly love and adore their leaders and are ready and willing to take over the world ;)

Often our view of China and Chinese communism and expansion etc. is like the way we are fed anti Muslim hysteria.
Nothing is really as it seems, yet we love being outraged about something ;);)

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bonza Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 3:31pm

clearly jelly you can't distinguish between CCP and China. nor can you establish an effective coherent argument. try harder next time.

try reading some Clive Hamilton.

you are damn right i am outraged.

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AndyM Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 3:33pm

"this whole enormous region is finally almost one empire again."

You say this as if it's necessarily a good thing.

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Jelly Flater Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 3:39pm

Not good nor bad AndyM
How do indigenous folk regard the British empire?
And bonza, try channel your passion some place useful.
Outrage has and will never work...
As in, lighten up and focus on what’s right in front of you...
It has nothing to do with China ;)

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AndyM Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 3:52pm

Nothing has anything to do with anything, until it does.

And then your complacency, your indifference and your thoughtlessness start to look pretty dumb.

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bonza Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 3:55pm

"lighten up" says the guy who can't play the ball and calls the opposition mongoloids.

anyways all the best jelly - i have no idea what you are on about.

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Jelly Flater Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 4:08pm

‘An outraged person with no idea...
That’s never happened before’
- Lao Tzu ;)

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shoredump Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 4:21pm

How do indigenous folk regard the British empire?

Exactly what we are nervously discussing. We are but a tribe of peace loving surfers enjoying the fruits of this beautiful land

2.0

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bonza Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 4:27pm

“respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment”.
- Lao Tzu ;)

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freeride76 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 4:32pm

"The governments of each respective country are as bad as each other and here we are trying to make sense of it on our iPhones that were designed in the US and assembled in China ;)"

The big difference is- every three years we can vote them out.

Xi has made himself dictator for life, and the Chinese people have no say in that matter.

The CCP can rewrite history at their discretion, have total control about what is published and by who.

Can jail or execute dissenters, at their discretion, via a court process that acts entirely according to the states wishes.

Can you spot the teensy-weensy difference between those two governance scenarios?

I don't suppose you have heard the term false equivalence Jelly?

You recommend Lao Tzu, I recommend Hannah Arendt 's The Origins of Totalitarianism.

Amazing after the bloodbath of the 20th century that people are still willing to act as apologists for totalitarian dictators.

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 5:14pm

Listening to ABC radio today and there was the ABC China corespondent on (no longer in China) the one that almost got detained by the government in China last year. (has a book out)

He was talking about some of these things.

Starts at about 2:03:00 (2hrs 3 minutes in) talking about the incident but about 2:08:00 starts talking about China in general, good little bit about 2:11:00 about how China has been changing and not for the best.

https://www.abc.net.au/radio/melbourne/programs/mornings/mornings/13312822

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freeride76 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 5:29pm

That’s interesting was just browsing his book in the local book shop.

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Jelly Flater Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 6:30pm

No apologist for any dictator here...
Curious about the inference of ‘rewriting history at their discretion’ though... it’s quite a concept the west has manipulated most effectively according to ‘our’ discretion ;)
Look at any war waged in the last 50 yrs especially (let alone the historical context of the opium wars etc) and try tell me the west has never been the aggressor or at the very least waged war through illegal means and by using the guise of self defence or ‘protecting sovereignty’ etc. Let’s use Iraq and Afghanistan as prime examples - we may have voted certain figures into power and they sent our troops off to invade foreign shores - the majority of everyday people sure as shit didn’t support or agree to participate in those wars. Our dictatoresque leaders made those decisions and we couldn’t do a thing about it. Just like the Chinese people and their ruling party if that ruling party decides to do anything militarily.

Be careful being an apologist for western genocide and political warmongering so as to back up the narrative of the ‘approaching’ enemy/threat.

And the question that needs to be posed regarding our so called fair and just democratic ideals and freedoms is this:

Which existing democracy was founded through democratic means?
Seriously, name one ;)
We stole a bunch of terrritory and in doing so murdered and raped and displaced a bunch of people.
Have been doing it for centuries....

Maybe there is a slight guilt complex of this reality in regard to our fear that it may happen to us or our kids one day.

It’s warranted because we are and have been guilty of everything we accuse China of being or doing, just on our different scale using our own tools of propaganda and corruption. We just rewrite our history continually to suit us as well.
In no way do I condone or support or justify Chinese or CCP doctrine as a counter weight to any of our own indiscretions - I do sincerely question our ability to validly fuel the constant hysteria about governance, human rights, territorial claims etc. in regard to China. We may have created a model that they are using albeit in a more calculated and cunning fashion;)

Can u see the teensy weensy difference there?
Good luck with the cherry picking though;)

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sypkan Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 7:19pm

"Sypkan , striving for equality is a noble cause , but when you consider the downfall of Democracy is lobby groups , and as BLM has shown things are not changing within......the biggest problem is the actions don't match the Rhetoric!"

well i can read this two ways brutus...

that blm have some good points, and little is changing...

or, that blm talk the talk, have good intentions, and are all in communists and stuff, except that it appears their leaders don't walk the walk...

ie. multi million dollar property barons that have skimmed off a heap of 'good cause' money from a 'disaster capitalism' ngo model running off the cynical donations of billionaire corporations...

blm are 'fucking grifters' is how one black guy described it...

...cynical donations of billionaire corporartions that are complicit in the genocide and enslavement of the uygher population... here and now! ...modern day slavery and genocide... year 2000!!

hypocrisy much?!!!

again...

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sypkan Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 7:49pm

"...Curious about the inference of ‘rewriting history at their discretion’ though... it’s quite a concept the west has manipulated most effectively according to ‘our’ discretion ;)
Look at any war waged in the last 50 yrs especially (let alone the historical context of the opium wars etc) and try tell me the west has never been the aggressor or at the very least waged war through illegal means and by using the guise of self defence or ‘protecting sovereignty’ etc. Let’s use Iraq and Afghanistan as prime examples - we may have voted certain figures into power and they sent our troops off to invade foreign shores - the majority of everyday people sure as shit didn’t support or agree to participate in those wars. Our dictatoresque leaders made those decisions and we couldn’t do a thing about it. Just like the Chinese people and their ruling party if that ruling party decides to do anything militarily...."

the thing is mr. flater... the BIG difference...

is, all countries launder their history and intentions... but in the west, we have competing dialogues running, people can raise points of difference, ...call out lies, ...say '...hang on a minute...' and challenge the narrative of the powerful...

it's what makes us unique. it even differentiates us from free functioning democracies like japan, south korea and indonesia... these countries have some freedom of press, and somewhat free flowing versions of demicracy, history and education, but they are much more edited and controlled than coutries of the west. their 'culture' is much more repressed, controlled, and respectful of age and power... for better and worse...

it's our freedom of press, freedom of thought, and minor semblance of equality under the law of the land, that makes us unique ...and accountable... eventually...

yes the bullshit flows, but 'the truth' comes out eventually... that's how our democracy works... and works relatively well...

and arguably, that is why western countries have been so successful...

I know it evokes sighs, eye rolls, and cries of 'rwnj'.... but the western system, dating back to magna carta and beyond, is built on there being some accountability, rights, recourse, and the means to call out injustice

china... not so much...

and plus, they are terribly racist, elitist, ...and all bloodlines and dynasty bullshit and stuff.., a heap of stuff we have endeavoured to move away from, ...poorly perhaps... but trying is better than celebrating and relishing in the opposite...

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sypkan Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 8:05pm

and yeh, most people on here seem perfectly capable of seperating the chinese people from the ccp...

many chinese people are calling out the ccp themselves ffs

I've seen them criticise the current crop of contemporary leaders of the west for not doing it!! ...for being ccp apologists...

for allowing and enabling the ccp to run amok, ...all whilst servicing their own pocket linings and/or political proclivities no doubt...

its nothing short of a fucking disgrace what some of our leaders have overlooked and enabled

and keyunts like twiggy too!!

(...who I still hold a soft spot for, ...despite some of his recent dances with the ridiculous...)

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freeride76 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 8:00pm

"Our dictatoresque leaders made those decisions and we couldn’t do a thing about it."

Well, we could, actually.

We could protest in the streets, very much unlike the Chinese students at Tianmen square who were gunned down by their own military.

A million people marched against the Iraq invasion in Sydney, and they were not gunned down, or arrested.

We could also vote out the politicians, as we did with John Howard. As the USA did with GW Bush, as the UK did with Tony Blair.

We are free to call those wars immoral and unjustified, as our press did at the time, and many more have since.
Inquiries were held in England (the Chilcot inquiry) and the justifications used for war (WMD's) were publicly denounced as lies.

The Tianmen Square massacre is not even allowed to be mentioned in China.
China has attempted, succeeded in fact in its own country, of completely expunging the massacre from history.

Thats what I mean by rewriting history.

But carry on with the false equivalences.

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sypkan Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 8:15pm

"The Tianmen Square massacre is not even allowed to be mentioned in China.
China has attempted, succeeded in fact in its own country, of completely expunging the massacre from history."

my mate had a chinese student in his uni tutorial arguing tianmen never happened, vehemently denying it and calling 'western propaganda'... such is the perverseness and pervasiveness of their all controlling system...

a well educated international student totally ignorant or brainwashed otherwise...

we have names for people denying our more inconvenient histories... crackpots, nutters, nazis!

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AndyM Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 8:36pm

That's a consistent story coming from the lecturers I know Syppo.

Sounds like some of the students are sincere in their denial and some are putting on a show because they never know when there's a spy around.

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Jelly Flater Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 8:38pm

Oh yes, of course...
Sypkan and freeride are spot on.
We can colonise and destroy already existing cultures, commit boundless atrocities as the blueprint for our own expansion and then have the glorious ability to have hindsight and see obvious ills for what they actually always were - even after the event! That definitely absolves one of responsibility before pretending to even accept accountability ;)

We are also seemingly superior and also more transparent by having protests etc and freedom of press to voice resistance and/or opposition after the event?!
Wow. I guess that then allows us to have pre emptive notions in regard to what may lay ahead in our imaginary assumptions of what another regime is supposedly definitely going to do ;)
Even when don’t know what China will actually do.
We really don’t ;)
But we should pre emptively engage an emerging superpower and think there will be no consequences.
And sypkan pretends we know nothing of racism or elitism... while freeride pretends the bloodbath of the 20th century had nothing to do with the west
Good ol Aussie spirit shining right through here - no need for false equivalency or any imaginary fear mongering;)
Do yaselves a favour instead and go have yum cha for lunch... smash a few dumplings and understand nationalistic pride and overblown paranoia will destroy our ability to be good and honourable people and, more than anything, hinder our future ability to have a stable and cohesive relationship with China.
This is the real threat to our freedom ;)

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sypkan Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 9:30pm

"...Even when don’t know what China will actually do...."

"we can only predict future behaviour by looking at past behaviours" (dr. phil)

aside from my half joke above, ..mate, ...if you cannot see what china are up to... and you reject the concerns that leftys like clive hamilton have raised... then there's nothing I can say here to make you see the bleeding fucking obvious...

"...And sypkan pretends we know nothing of racism or elitism... while freeride pretends the bloodbath of the 20th century had nothing to do with the west..."

Im pulling the irritated 'mate', again... neither of us said anthing of the sort. ...I actually said we do have a history of it, and are at least endeavouring to move away from it... unlike china, who are relishing in it...

"...Good ol Aussie spirit shining right through here - no need for false equivalency or any imaginary fear mongering;)
Do yaselves a favour instead and go have yum cha for lunch... smash a few dumplings and understand nationalistic pride and overblown paranoia will destroy our ability to be good and honourable people and, more than anything, hinder our future ability to have a stable and cohesive relationship with China.
This is the real threat to our freedom ;)..."

'mate' ...again... I have no nationalistc pride whatsoever, any minute display of it is actually very nauseating to me... and I have never been a 'china hawk' in the past, but the last 10 years, and especially the last few... with the south china sea, their 'debt trap' diplomacy, and their actions surrounding corona, it is so bloody obvious what china are up to, it beggars belief that some of you are so naive or ideologically aligned that you see no problem with china being the new bully in town, pushing their authoritarian wuhan surveillance state onto the rest of the world

but each to their own... I'm not standing by silently whilst western billionaires and their media sycophants impose their chinese peasant factory preserving authoritarian fawning twisted agenda onto the western peasants too!

but you carry on mate, ...it seems it's a dystopian future ahead, no matter who's in charge, but I certainly know which system and dark overlords I prefer for our unfortunate children...