Australia - you're standing in it

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog started the topic in Friday, 18 Sep 2020 at 11:51am

The "I can't believe it's not politics" thread.

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 8:23am

Australia should be working towards mending, improving and strengthening cooperation, ties, partnerships and the overall economic, political, cultural and strategic relationship with China in mutually beneficial ways that are in Australia's interest. There are currently an endless number of opportunities to achieve this.

There is no stopping, preventing or reversing China's continued and sustained rise in importance and strength economically, politically, culturally, militarily, financially, etc, on the world stage. The rise is an opportunity, not a threat.

The Australia-China relationship is currently still getting damaged, fractured, degraded, undermined, sabotaged and set back many years or even decades by our current cohort of idiot politicians.

It is simply a continuing deteriorating situation of mismanagement, ignorance, incompetence, misjudgement, misunderstanding, negligence, etc, by our backwards and inexperienced politicians which is predominately driven by blind US-following, fear of the unknown, short-term and naive and narrow-minded thinking, relentless outright propaganda and misinformation spamming by the western media, and blindness to and ignorance of China and its culture, history, track record on the global stage, opportunities presented, and the bigger global picture.

san Guine's picture
san Guine's picture
san Guine Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 8:33am

"Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war." Let's hope not...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-27/china-responds-to-dutton-comment/...

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 8:45am

Three paragraphs and three hundred words of denial there, Gsco.
Love to hear your spin on the CCP “fishing” base they’re trying to establish 90kms from the Australian mainland. Actually, no I wouldn’t.

san Guine's picture
san Guine's picture
san Guine Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 8:59am

If there is one thing that makes my blood boil.

Yesterday while shopping at Aldi, I was waiting in the queue behind an indigenous Australian who was next to be served. But the checkout operator then closed her register and told us both to go to another register. I thought this is odd as this never usually happens, usually the operator puts up the plastic 'register closed' sign etc. The indigenous bloke just shrugged, smiled and looked at me with the resigned look of "this happens to me all the time". Waited in the other queue behind 2 other customers, got served, then paid for my groceries...and guess what, the operator who wouldn't serve us was still checking through items for other customers.

Sent a formal complaint through to Aldi this morning.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 8:59am

No one wants war. That’s why fingers are crossed that the independent nation of Taiwan is respected in its people’s desire for democracy and that the CCP discontinues it’s thriving of territory throughout the South China Sea with its militarily backed bullying. Likewise China shouty not be buying and coercing its way into Australia’s neighbourhood or making demands towards the abrogation of our sovereignty merely to continue trading with them.

Ball is wholly in China’s court.

san Guine's picture
san Guine's picture
san Guine Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:04am

Agreed Blowin, no-one wants war. But the Western prism, we see Taiwan through is not how China perceives the situation

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34729538

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:13am

san Guine wrote: If there is one thing that makes my blood boil.

Yesterday while shopping at Aldi, I was waiting in the queue behind an indigenous Australian who was next to be served. But the checkout operator then closed her register and told us both to go to another register. I thought this is odd as this never usually happens, usually the operator puts up the plastic 'register closed' sign etc. The indigenous bloke just shrugged, smiled and looked at me with the resigned look of "this happens to me all the time". Waited in the other queue behind 2 other customers, got served, then paid for my groceries...and guess what, the operator who wouldn't serve us was still checking through items for other customers.

Sent a formal complaint through to Aldi this morning.

So annoying when that happens, but I’m struggling to comprehend what the fact that the other customer was indigenous has to do with the story? Even better when they send you to the automated checkout and half of them aren’t working.

san Guine's picture
san Guine's picture
san Guine Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:16am

Disclaimer, I am not an apologist for Chinas' sabre-rattling, but China fears encirclement.
It uses NorthKorea as a buffer, but also is building military installations in the South China Sea.
The last country to act on a perceived encirclement strategy, was the Kaiserreich and we all know how that ended.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:17am

San Guine - Taiwan is an independent democracy. China needs to respect this fact. Any other outcome is the result of mistaken thinking on the behalf of the Chinese. Simple as that. Not sure how Gsco can square that away when it contradicts the whole “ China is peaceful” narrative so completely.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:19am

san Guine wrote: Disclaimer, I am not an apologist for Chinas' sabre-rattling, but China fears encirclement.
It uses NorthKorea as a buffer, but also is building military installations in the South China Sea.
The last country to act on a perceived encirclement strategy, was the Kaiserreich and we all know how that ended.

Is that why China is trying to get a foothold 90kms from the Aussie mainland- because it fears encirclement? CCP is empire building. Blind Freddy can see that.

san Guine's picture
san Guine's picture
san Guine Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:20am

Blowin,
My perception of the event was the the checkout operator was making a decision not to serve that customer on the basis of skin colour.

san Guine's picture
san Guine's picture
san Guine Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:22am

Blowin,
Lucky we don't have any foreign military bases in Australia then :).

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:25am

Taiwan is not an independent democracy. Never was, never will be. Part of China - always was, always will be.

Blowin to think otherwise means you're under the spell of the western media and ignorant to 5000 years of history.

loungelizard's picture
loungelizard's picture
loungelizard Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:35am

cccp trolls on swellnet. had to happen I guess

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:39am

regarding Taiwan, the US is the long-term aggressor here and the battle is not over land/territory but over control of global semiconductor manufacturing.

Supafreak's picture
Supafreak's picture
Supafreak Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:50am

gsco wrote: Australia should be working towards mending, improving and strengthening cooperation, ties, partnerships and the overall economic, political, cultural and strategic relationship with China in mutually beneficial ways that are in Australia's interest. There are currently an endless number of opportunities to achieve this.

There is no stopping, preventing or reversing China's continued and sustained rise in importance and strength economically, politically, culturally, militarily, financially, etc, on the world stage. The rise is an opportunity, not a threat.

The Australia-China relationship is currently still getting damaged, fractured, degraded, undermined, sabotaged and set back many years or even decades by our current cohort of idiot politicians.

It is simply a continuing deteriorating situation of mismanagement, ignorance, incompetence, misjudgement, misunderstanding, negligence, etc, by our backwards and inexperienced politicians which is predominately driven by blind US-following, fear of the unknown, short-term and naive and narrow-minded thinking, relentless outright propaganda and misinformation spamming by the western media, and blindness to and ignorance of China and its culture, history, track record on the global stage, opportunities presented, and the bigger global picture.

Supafreak's picture
Supafreak's picture
Supafreak Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:53am

@gsco , could you please explain china’s “track record “ on human rights violations on the world stage and why the western powers turn a blind eye to it ?

etarip's picture
etarip's picture
etarip Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:54am

Always was, always will be? Bullshit.

That’s stretching it a little far gsco. Remember the Angela Merkel map-flap, relating to the presentation to Xi of a 1735 map that depicted China’s borders at the time?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/world/angela-merkels-histori...

From that article:
The map showed, according to its original Latin caption, the so-called "China Proper" -- that is, the Chinese heartland mostly populated by ethnic Han people, without Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia, or Manchuria. The islands of Taiwan and Hainan -- the latter clearly part of modern China, the former very much disputed -- are shown with a different colour border.

Historical maps are sensitive business in China. Every schoolchild in China learns that Tibet, Xinjiang, Taiwan, and the Diaoyu Islands (known as Senkaku in Japanese) have been "inalienable parts of China since ancient times."

I’d call your ‘always was, always will be’ a bit of historical kookery mate.

Now, Australia’s position on Taiwan is based on a 1973 affirmation of the One China policy. That fact, and 20+ years of accommodation to China that we’re now backtracking on, present more troublesome narratives for our government to overcome in resetting the relationship.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:55am

gsco wrote: Taiwan is not an independent democracy. Never was, never will be. Part of China - always was, always will be.

Blowin to think otherwise means you're under the spell of the western media and ignorant to 5000 years of history.

You’re barking up the wrong tree, mate. It’s not me you should be lecturing about the politics of Taiwan, its the 23 million Taiwanese people who keep voting for their democratic independence. How dare they!

etarip's picture
etarip's picture
etarip Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 9:55am

Unless this is classic piss-taking.

In which case, well played

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 10:14am

Not piss taking.

Who has the worst historical human rights violations in terms of indigenous cultures and war - the US or China..? Simply hypocritical and arrogant for the west to be lecturing China on human rights...

Regarding Taiwan and the One-China Policy, the US signed and agreed to:

"the United States acknowledges that Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China. The United States does not challenge that position."

The west only started pushing for some ridiculous notion of an "independent, democratic Taiwan" when Taiwan became the dominant player in semiconductors. The reason for the intensified pushing again by the US over past decade or two is to attempt to block China's ability to develop semiconductor manufacturing internally since the US knows and China even acknowledges that this is the main weakness of China's technological capability and main dependence on the west, and hence the main strategic exposure and weakness of China on the global stage.

The Taiwan situation has little to nothing to do with Communism vs democracy, strategic control of land/territory, strategic cooperation with the Taiwanese government, or even history.

seaslug's picture
seaslug's picture
seaslug Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 10:17am

Where's Twiggy, Scotty's "New Chinese Relationship Consultant", he will sort this out....

etarip's picture
etarip's picture
etarip Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 10:22am

Oh, I had over-estimated you then. You’re full of it!
Countries rarely make decisions based on single issues. Taiwan is strategically important for a range of reasons. You’re in conspiracy land.

So you’re not taking the piss on the ‘always was, always will be’ then? How do you back up your claim? ‘China’ as it exists now is a modern invention. A single ethnic or political group has never controlled the amount of territory nor their population that the CCP does now. Nor have they claimed and exercised control over the Chinese ethnic diaspora, and commercial interests.

adam12's picture
adam12's picture
adam12 Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 12:09pm

The world today seems absolutely crackers,
With nuclear bombs to blow us all sky high.
There's fools and idiots sitting on the trigger.
It's depressing and it's senseless, and that's why...
I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They only come up to your knees,
Yet they're always friendly, and they're ready to please.
I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
There's nine hundred million of them in the world today.
You'd better learn to like them; that's what I say.
I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They come from a long way overseas,
But they're cute and they're cuddly, and they're ready to please.
I like Chinese food.
The waiters never are rude.
Think of the many things they've done to impress.
There's Maoism, Taoism, I Ching, and Chess.
So I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
I like their tiny little trees,
Their Zen, their ping-pong, their yin, and yang-ese.
I like Chinese thought,
The wisdom that Confucious taught.
If Darwin is anything to shout about,
The Chinese will survive us all without any doubt.
So, I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They only come up to your knees,
Yet they're wise and they're witty, and they're ready to please.
All together.
Wo ai zhongguo ren. (I like Chinese.)
Wo ai zhongguo ren. (I like Chinese.)
Wo ai zhongguo ren. (I like Chinese.)
Ni hao ma; ni hao ma; ni hao ma; zaijien! (How are you; how are you; how are you; goodbye!)
I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
Their food is guaranteed to please,
A fourteen, a seven, a nine, and lychees.
I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
I like their tiny little trees,
Their Zen, their ping-pong, their yin, and yang-ese.
I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They only come up to your knees...

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 12:19pm

Blowin wrote:
san Guine wrote: If there is one thing that makes my blood boil.

Yesterday while shopping at Aldi, I was waiting in the queue behind an indigenous Australian who was next to be served. But the checkout operator then closed her register and told us both to go to another register. I thought this is odd as this never usually happens, usually the operator puts up the plastic 'register closed' sign etc. The indigenous bloke just shrugged, smiled and looked at me with the resigned look of "this happens to me all the time". Waited in the other queue behind 2 other customers, got served, then paid for my groceries...and guess what, the operator who wouldn't serve us was still checking through items for other customers.

Sent a formal complaint through to Aldi this morning.

So annoying when that happens, but I’m struggling to comprehend what the fact that the other customer was indigenous has to do with the story? Even better when they send you to the automated checkout and half of them aren’t working.

Yep it sucks when it happens, happens sometimes when I'm alone happens sometimes when I'm with my Asian wife.

Never once crossed my mind or hers that its about skin colour, ive seen it happen to many white people, its just a fact of life that they close registers when they want, due to demand or if its their break time or whatever.

If you are really lucky sometimes they sneak you in, and the person behind you misses out.

san Guine's picture
san Guine's picture
san Guine Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 12:36pm

Nah Indo,
Not this time, you know it when you know it...

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 12:57pm

I wasn't there, but i don't know how you can make a call on what the staff was thinking, if it happened and the guy in front was white you would think nothing of it.

Your mindset to me is dangerous and damaging because it fuels the idea that the register shut because of skin colour, i don't think its fair to put that in peoples head, i hope the indigenous guy didn't read you.

Ideally i would have said a casual remark like damn i hate it when that happens, to reassure him that it happens to us all.

And If i was the register operator i would have let him through and made you the last guy, just so he didn't think anything bad, and i think these days that's what most people would do.

Me and Brutus had a similar discussion on something similar the other month, and i do think its sucks, that people of colour are at a disadvantage at times not knowing if things like this is racism or just shit that happens to all of us.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 1:02pm

Yep. Particularly this bit - The indigenous bloke just shrugged, smiled and looked at me with the resigned look of "this happens to me all the time".

Sorry, mate but this is rubbish. If your complaint mentioned race in any way, shape or form you really need to take a step back. That is the stuff of everyday life for everyone.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 1:30pm

Was working in a restaurant and an indigenous Australian fella was in for dinner.

Unfortunately the young waitress lost his order, as can happen.

Old mate immediately played the race card, making a huge screaming scene in the middle of the place.

Of course the young French waitress was mortified and humiliated.

Going straight to the race card on only an assumption doesn't do anyone any good.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 2:50pm

Remember when Rodney Rude was at a truck stop restaurant grabbing a bite to eat with his old man? Rodney ordered a sausage roll and a coke whilst his old man ordered a couple of meat pies and a Fanta. The joint was flat out busy and the waitress said she’d bring their food over when she had a second, so Rodney and Dad went and found a table. Twenty minutes later the waitress comes out with a drink in each hand and a meat pie under each armpit.

“ Why in the name of God have you got my pies under your armpits?” Thundered Rodney’s old man.

“To keep them warm” claimed the waitress.

“You can keep the sausage roll” says Rodney.

seaslug's picture
seaslug's picture
seaslug Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 3:26pm

Haha Blowin, I would have eaten the sausage roll

troppo dichotomy's picture
troppo dichotomy's picture
troppo dichotomy Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 4:05pm

Yeah i would've too!unless it came with sauce?

seaslug's picture
seaslug's picture
seaslug Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 4:08pm

I'll strive to reach for the bottom but depends if it was mayo or tomato sauce TD

troppo dichotomy's picture
troppo dichotomy's picture
troppo dichotomy Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 4:33pm

Sausage roll with mayo?so gross!ha ha seaslug.
Whats for dessert?chocolate donut....

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 5:25pm

You better sit down for this one.

Best evers?

https://www.echo.net.au/2021/04/corporate-welfare-gone-mad-10-3-billion-...

First paragraph alone is epic.

seaslug's picture
seaslug's picture
seaslug Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 5:45pm

Geez Blowin to early, I'm still gagging from my chocolate donut

Supafreak's picture
Supafreak's picture
Supafreak Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 5:56pm

So gsco , your ok with china’s human rights violations because the US has massacred its indigenous tribes and started plenty of wars . Two wrongs don’t make a right .

Liney's picture
Liney's picture
Liney Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 10:33pm

GSCO,were you ever dropped in on by Shaun Tomson in Hawaii in the Mid 70’s?

seaslug's picture
seaslug's picture
seaslug Tuesday, 27 Apr 2021 at 10:54pm

Didn't ST drop in on everyone from the shoulder?

upnorth's picture
upnorth's picture
upnorth Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 4:58am

"A Chinese spy plane attempted to fly underneath Taiwan’s radar detection as it gathered intelligence and tested the island’s air defences.

The Y-8 tactical reconnaissance aircraft from the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) flew 30 metres above sea level off Taiwan yesterday as part of China’s growing military manoeuvres around the self-governing island.

Chinese aircraft have made almost daily incursions into Taiwan’s air defence identification zone since September. This was the lowest flight so far in an area that acts as a buffer between international airspace and a nation’s territorial airspace.

Lin Yin-yu, a professor at the Institute of Strategic and International Affairs at National Chung Cheng University in southern Taiwan, told the South China Morning Post that the low-altitude flight served to test the Taiwanese military’s radar response capability.

“By flying at an altitude of 30 metres, the PLA plane was testing if it could fly beneath the radio wave coverage area,” Lin said.

In Taiwan, however, the defence ministry said that it responded to the incursion by scrambling civil air patrol aircraft, issuing radio warnings and deploying the air defence missile system to monitor the spy plane.

Tensions over the Taiwan Strait have escalated sharply over recent months. Beijing has vowed to unify with what it considers a runaway province. Washington, which has a security pact with Taiwan to supply sufficient hardware and technology to fend off any mainland invasions, has pledged its support.

Last week China made a rare public display of its naval powers by commissioning three advanced warships, including its first amphibious attack ship, on the same day. Chinese military experts claimed that the ships would play “important roles in solving questions in places like the island of Taiwan and the South China Sea”.

Chang Yen-ting, a former Taiwanese air force vice-commander, told the South China Morning Post that flying so close to the surface tested a pilot’s skill because there was a risk that optical illusions would cause them to misjudge the plane’s height.

“This is why most of these flights are conducted in the daytime,” he said, noting that the clear sky and the good visibility in the morning allowed the spy plane to fly at such a low altitude over sea.

Experts believe that the Chinese military are frequently sending their planes near Taiwan not only to train pilots but also to collect intelligence on the island and the US military deployment in the region. The missions also serve to keep pressure on the island and wear down the Taiwanese air force.

Meanwhile, Beijing chided Canberra after Peter Dutton, the Australian defence minister, said that conflict with China over Taiwan should not be discounted.

Wang Wenbin, a spokesman for the Chinese foreign ministry, said that it was important that Australia was “prudent in its words and deeds” and acted to enhance “peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait”.

So what's the time scale for Australia to “send off, yet again, our warriors to fight” as Pezzullo says. Months? With NZ dropping out of 5 eyes doesn't look like there'll be much Anzac solidarity when push comes to shove.

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 7:39am

My simple personal opinion is the mistake people are making is that they're actually believing and regurgitating what they see and read in the media and what politicians and even so-called foreign policy "experts" etc are saying and commentating like it all has some kind of basis in fact, truth and reality, and like it is the west that is "fighting the good fight". This is simply stupid, naive, ignorant and blind.

Believing and basing one's perspective, understanding, opinions and arguments about the rise of China - and indeed about any issues that are currently being fabricated, framed and spammed as "hot" and "important" and needing of "urgent attention" like Tibet, Taiwan, Hong Kong, the South China Sea, etc - on the nonsense, misinformation and propaganda relentlessly spammed by western media, politicians and policy "experts" is as naive and blind as believing what is relentlessly spammed by the CCP.

It's clear that everyone's comments in here about China are just regurgitations of the latest inflammatory propaganda spammed by our media. It's all cringeworthy to me and I can't see how people in here just blindly take it all at face value like it's a true and accurate assessment of what's going on and a statement of fact. People in here can't seem to think for themselves and critically see through all the misinformation they're digesting and then regurgitating. People are just all arguing with each other about illusions and topics that are fabricated as important and then framed in particular ways in our minds by our media and politicians.

My other main opinion I have is that the fear the west has of the rising of China to be the dominant power is based on a mistaken assumption that when China becomes the dominant power in the next 5 to 10 years (maybe it already is...), China will rule and behave on a global stage exactly like the west has for the past few hundred years when it was the dominant power: imperialism and colonialism, political and economic exploitation and destruction of less powerful and developed countries, cultural and political ideology and economic system exporting, mass genocide of indigenous populations...

The west is the guiltiest of them all... Is there a chance that China will actually do a better job as the globally dominant power than the west has done?? This would indeed be very easy to achieve...

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 7:59am

So it’s all just a Western sphere propaganda campaign then?

Perhaps if you squint your eyes and dismiss the same concerns arising from Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines, South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Hong Kong, India etc you may just be able to fool yourself.

The main point you seem to be missing here is that not a single country is threatening China. The problem is China’s empire building and expansionism. You’ve got it arse about.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 8:22am

I think your opinion (GSCO) is very, very wrong and not just "stupid, naive, ignorant and blind", but dangerously unaware of history and what happens to human freedom when totalitarian/authoritarian state systems of control gain ascendancy.

We saw how that movie played out in the 20th century.

The west has flaws, no doubt. But compared to the total subservience demanded of citizens under totalitarian communism our rule of law, freedom of the press and assembly is about the greatest historical advancement for the rights of human beings ever developed.

I find it incredibly disturbing anyone of sound mind could look at the history of the 20th century and be considering global governance in Chinese mode.

That would be a nightmare for humanity.

I focus's picture
I focus's picture
I focus Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 9:10am

GSCO if you are not of Han culture treatment of Uyghurs is likely closer to the mark of China's coming world rule.

etarip's picture
etarip's picture
etarip Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 9:15am

Gsco: “People in here can't seem to think for themselves and critically see through all the misinformation they're digesting and then regurgitating.“

On what basis do you make that assessment gsco? I called out your comment on Taiwan always having been ‘Chinese’ and you’ve neither provided an alternate reference to prove your comment nor retracted it. Seems to me like you’re the one with the issue looking deeper than the feelz.

Are you serious when you ask whether a dominant China will act like the West by “ imperialism and colonialism, political and economic exploitation and destruction of less powerful and developed countries, cultural and political ideology and economic system exporting, mass genocide of indigenous populations...”

Which of these things has modern China NOT done? Read the list you provided. The CCP is doing ALL those things.

I’ve got to say though, some of these public figures ‘preparing the nation for war’ can go fucking do some fighting themselves. I bet they never served and don’t have kids in the services.

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 9:25am

@blowin and freeride76

I respect both of your intelligent and insightful views and writings on here, for sure. But I think your last two comments illustrate what I'm saying, and you're falling into the exact trap I'm talking about, though.

Blowin said:
> not a single country is threatening China.
> The problem is China’s empire building and expansionism.
I would very seriously question these assumptions. The western media is framing everything related to China in way that results in us thinking these exact thoughts. This is exactly what they are seeking to achieve.

The US is directly threatening China and is on a war footing on all fronts, has has been for a decade or two now, and is now significantly accelerating things, and doing so unprovoked. It is the US that is ramping things up here and framing it in our minds as though it is all in fact retaliatory due to China's actions are they are fighting some kind of good fight.

China's development (what blowin is calling building and expansionism) is being framed as a problem in our minds by the western media and politicians. It is exactly what they want us to think in order to justify the actions of the west to suppress China's rise. The western media relentlessly fabricates "illusions" and supposed "events" and "actions" by China - eg such as supposed activities in the South China Sea and towards Taiwan - that are not actually occurring, or at best are completely taken out of context, and then even framing these illusory "events" and "actions" in our minds as threatening provocations by a China destined to rise up and convert the world to communism.

freeride76 said:
> but dangerously unaware of history and what happens to human freedom when totalitarian/authoritarian state systems of control gain ascendancy.
> But compared to the total subservience demanded of citizens under totalitarian communism our rule of law, freedom of the press and assembly is about the greatest historical advancement for the rights of human beings ever developed.
This is exactly, perfectly, the way the west is framing the rise of China in our minds - exactly what they want us to think. But what you have said here is just unbridled ideology and has no information content. I have lived in China more than I have lived in Australia for the past decade or so. Nothing you have said here has any information content or reflection about the reality of China as a country or political or economic system.

freeride76 also said:
> I find it incredibly disturbing anyone of sound mind could look at the history of the 20th century and be considering global governance in Chinese mode.
> That would be a nightmare for humanity.
Again, that is exactly how the western media and politicians are framing things in our mind. However, this is about to become a reality in the next 5 or 10 years, and already largely is on most fronts. The main area this is still not completely a reality is semiconductor manufacturing and the US currency's status as the global reserve currency - both of these are changing as we know it due to China's focus on developing its semiconductor industry, and digital currencies and current economic (debt levels and failure of traditional monetary policy) situations which are debasing the US currency.

The topic of China itself, and all of the current "hot" topics being fabricated by the western media - Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong, etc - have thousands of years of history, complexity and ambiguity behind them and are absolutely nothing like the black-and-white, simplistic. idiotic situations that the western media and politicians are framing in our minds in order to view China exactly how they want us to view it the country and people - as a threat.

Everything we are seeing in our media and by our politicians about China is simply last-ditch attempts and clutching at straws by the west while it frantically tries to cling on to its decaying status as the global superpower. The end of this is coming very close. It is just part of the natural rise and decline of global superpowers that has played out over the past 5000 years of history - such the Dutch, then the UK, and now the US, with China the next in line.

brutus's picture
brutus's picture
brutus Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 9:38am

I agree with GSCO , but China are playing a long game for world domination and payback to the Western Colonial powers for invading China.

Raping and pillaging of the country and then got the people addicted to opium , destroying the Chinese culture , their economy , History's a bitch when you consider China believes it's the longest continuing culture currently in existence , about 5000 years.

To think China has no chip on it's shoulder over the Colonial invasion and the treatment it received at the hands of the Japanese/English/French/Americans/Portuguese .....try looking at their position from their Historic view , easy to understand harder to accept...as our way of life is under threat from China
https://www.quora.com/Was-China-ever-colonized...........to think Australia or any of the old world colonial powers are respected by China, especially as all the Western Nations have human rights abuses in their collective closets .....

until Australia can clean up it's act in regards to Indigenous/Refugees and war crimes , anything we say to China politically is seen as us being Hypocrites , we know it , they know it...

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 9:50am

GSCO, I find it even more disturbing that you see this as a problem of "framing" and not content and reality.

My "framing" isn't coming from western media.

It's coming from history, and accounts from communists themselves about the total degradation of freedom under totalitarian systems of governance.

Sure, you can live in China as westerner and be a good boy and have no dramas. The state though, is completely ready at any-time to crush even the most mild forms of dissent.
There is no recourse to anything like the rule of law we have here, no matter how flawed that system.
The Chinese justice system has one mission and that is to enforce the will of the state/CCP.

You really think we are 5-10 years away from global governance in Chinese mode?

What evidence do you have for that?

I'm not talking about economic power, I'm talking about authoritarian Chinese governance becoming a standard in global governance.

I think we are in the early stages of a very big backlash against that prospect.

etarip's picture
etarip's picture
etarip Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 9:52am

No one’s saying that these aren’t complex issues, but your lack of analysis and insight is apparent. I’ve got to ask (again) where you’re getting your information from? Global Times perchance? You do realise that while resident in China you are not necessarily accessing unbiased reporting and perspectives, right? China’s propaganda and state-media apparatus have their own narratives and approaches - one of which is to present all issues as a historical ‘fact’ that is too complex and ambiguous for any outsiders to understand. It’s mostly bullshit too.

Gcso said: The western media relentlessly fabricates "illusions" and supposed "events" and "actions" by China - eg such as supposed activities in the South China Sea and towards Taiwan - that are not actually occurring, or at best are completely taken out of context,

I’ve spent a bit of time working in SE Asia and the Southwest Pacific. Are you seriously representing the concerns of the people of those nations as a result of western propaganda and media bias too? Many of them have valid concerns about the neo-colonialist approaches they’re seeing. In PNG it often manifests as Chinese companies winning contracts to deliver sub-standard projects, with an entirely imported workforce and racist (yes!) treatment of the locals. My Filipino colleagues in particular stress about the glowingly assertive presence of China in the West Philippine Sea (you’d call that the South China Sea - within the CCP’s sharpie drawn nine-dash line of course).

“and then even framing these illusory "events" and "actions" in our minds as threatening provocations by a China destined to rise up and convert the world to communism.”

Point out where ANYONE on here has mentioned China’s attempt to convert the world to communism,

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Wednesday, 28 Apr 2021 at 9:52am

Yes what you said brutus is correct. China has a huge chip on its shoulders. But they are not out to seek revenge. This chip is more viewed by China as simply another lesson in its 5000 year history. China is out to rejuvenate China and its 5000 year culture and society, after being completely battered by the west (particularly the UK), and to show that they can be a global superpower that is better - fairer, more just, inclusive, better outcomes, etc- than the track record of the west. We're about to see.