Climate Change

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blowfly started the topic in Wednesday, 1 Jul 2020 at 9:40am

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indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 4:41pm
gsco wrote:

Anyone who advocates for climate change by deflecting responsibility to governments and corporations to do something, and is not making systematic changes to their lives right here and now, or is not spending ever waking moment trying to find that miracle, is living a lie and is not worth taking seriously. But this seems to be 99 out of 100 people.

I think saying " is not spending ever waking moment trying to find that miracle" is going too far, i think those people just need to show they are making a real effort in all areas of their life to reduce their carbon foot print, which is not just going out and putting roof top solar on or buying an EV both of which is not a sacrifice at all, most sensible people want those things because it reduces your energy and fuel bills which is most peoples motivation, reducing carbon emissions is more just the feel good bonus.

But i otherwise 100% agree and was surprised with Stunets reply, especially the right wing thing, to me it's basically about taking self responsibly and acting locally thinking globally and understanding how small change on mass can bring big change.

But yeah most people seem to just expect some magical solutions from government or big business without doing much themselves, which is crazy, im not saying both dont have degree of responsibility but its the individual that creates demand or creates changes in demand.

Take surfboards for example id expect 9 out of 10 boards sold are still PU/PE super toxic high carbon producing petroleum based products, only reason why they are still the bigger seller is because demand hasn't changed, there is already alternatives out there but most surfers believe PU/PE is best so aren't willing to make a change, while if 9 out of 10 surfers decided they will make a sacrifice on performance and go for the alternative product, demand would dictate that board builders would all move to a greener product.

Or you could expect the government to force board builders to change, or expect board builders to be the one that changes, but to me that's silly to expect, i expect as most surfers claim to be green for them to bring change.

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bonza Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 5:04pm

Classic victim blaming from both indo and gsco.
Governments have a duty to protect its citizens. You wouldn't ask your neighbour to harden up and sort it out themselves if they just had their house robbed and livelihoods destroyed. Individual and collective consumer power can be strong but its insignificant when you compare the power our big corporations hold. Only governments can keep that power in check.
The fossil fuel industry is lead by a handful of oil and gas companies that overwhelming contribute to global emissions and in turn reap in that profit.
But in your view its the ‘individual’ who needs to act. Go figure. you think recycling tin cans is gunna change the world?. have you seen the cost of fresh vegetables and fruit vs dominos pizza? ever heard of cash flow?
And while we’re at it show me a landlord who has provided solar panels on their investment property so that rental scum can reduce their bills and I’ll show you a liar. Think about it.

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indo-dreaming Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 5:35pm

Ha ha victim blaming seriously?

FFS this is the type of mindset we are dealing with, completely delusional with zero self responsibility.

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bonza Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 5:37pm

Tell me how I’m wrong. There are consequences from climate change yes? People who don’t have the means to engage in effective change? Been noticing what’s going on around the world? See who is being impacted? Are these not victims of industrial scale emissions? Is it their fault?

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bonza Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 5:37pm

So yeah mate you are blaming the victim.

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indo-dreaming Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 6:18pm

That's crazy logic you and me and others are not victims, because we get something we demand.

Problem these days is everybody wants to be a victim nobody wants to take any responsibility for anything, i guess the growing popularity of victimhood also has to do with there being a kind of power in being a victim.

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bonza Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 6:26pm
indo-dreaming wrote:

That's crazy logic you and me and others are not victims, because we get something we demand.

Problem these days is everybody wants to be a victim nobody wants to take any responsibility for anything, i guess the growing popularity of victimhood also has to do with there being a kind of power in being a victim.

I wasn‘r talking about you and me indo. Go back to my post and explain to me how I’m wrong. I wasn’t shirking individual responsibility. I was pointing out its insignificance compared to corporate power. Think about when I say victims what I mean.

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gsco Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 6:32pm

Being a victim is the underlying psychology of the woke movement.

If you are not a victim then you are in fact the oppressor.

Personal responsibility is now antisocial selfishness and people practicing it are not permitted to participate in society.

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bonza Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 6:35pm

Or you could just stop with the woke bullshit and explain to me how I’m wrong.

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gsco Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 6:50pm

You're not wrong. It's a combination of individual personal responsibility and lifestyle change, government regulation and incentives, corporate responsibility and genuine change, drawing on existing technologies, a technological miracle...all of the above.

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bonza Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 6:55pm

Yes but there is a ratio of responsibility isn’t there gsco. And where does the majority of that lay? Are you saying it’s equal?

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gsco Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 7:26pm

I wouldn’t know.

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bonza Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 7:35pm

But yet you seem to disproportionally blame the individual. Individuals, for example who happen to live in China who you champion and who will disproportionately suffer the consequences of climate change compared to richer western nation individuals like indo or me. Yet when I call it as it is - victim blaming. Your default position is to call it woke.

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blackers Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 7:52pm

Yup, cop out.

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gsco Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 8:14pm

No entirely sure if I follow your point.

Burning of fossil fuels started at scale in the industrial revolution so the problem is predominately caused by us developed countries during our phase of industrial and economic etc development and expansion, and then maintenance of our lifestyles.

Climate change is projected to impact on all humanity, but will affect developing nations in an additional unique and disproportionate way in that it would be catastrophic for them to also develop industrially and economically etc to the same level as us given the current level of human technologies. Lucky for us we've already developed.

Even if these countries didn't develop any further the current situation is still not sustainable without changes in our developed nation lifestyles and/or technologies which as yet don't exist.

Changes in our lifestyles can be due to our own personal responsibility in our own lifestyle choices, particularly our consumption patterns, and/or due to being forced to by governments. There is a role for both but I don't know the proportions.

But the idea that we can just keep living the lifestyles we desire without taking personal responsibility for making changes and instead wait for governments to enforce changes and/or hope technology will save us is an argument for non-action and a victim mentality - that we are just powerless victims of corporations and governments.

I'm surprised Stu voiced this opinion of taking little to no personal responsibility and hoping for a technological saviour. I actually thought it was very socially unacceptable position to take in this day and age.

Tell me how any of that is wrong?

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bonza Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 8:21pm

You’re arguing with your self mate and completely missing the point of my response. The argument being your posted re responsibility and proportion of action. If you can’t follow what ive said thenI’ve obviously failed at pointing it out. All the best gsco

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Robwilliams Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 10:04pm
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sypkan Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 11:28pm

all this talk of responsibility...

and hopelessness

who is responsible for such exorbitant lpg prices, poor people can no longer use it to cook?

and are forced to "...burn wood like the dark ages"

even in germany people are stocking up on trailer loads of firewood at high prices

people are soon going to be chopping down trees left, right, and centre...

which is an environmental disaster in itself

but, ...electric cars and stuff...

californians will be driving around all guilt free and high and mighty and stuff - if the weather isn't too hot and they can charge their cars...

one step forward three steps back

it seems the big wigs haven't really thought this through

does climate change even exist in russia?

do they care? ...or do they celebrate a balmy siberian spring?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/tribune.com.pk/story/2335684/karachi-looks-...

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gsco Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 8:05am

ok so I think I finally get it.

People identify with being climate change "advocates", and sit around in happy little woke social groups sipping lattes feeling all socially accepted, warm and fuzzy and good about themselves, siding with each other for being so woke, politically correct and socially with the times.

And they like to gang up on and belt with a stick people who have a critical mind and question the "science", and exclude those people from their happy little woke social circles.

But people see themselves in fact as powerless victims of climate change and on the "receiving end" of it, instead of realising that it is in fact their (our) modern lifestyles and living standards that we so highly value, and our high levels of economic development and consumption choices etc, that are the causes of it.

Instead people hold on to the idea that the "real" causes of climate change are in fact evil governments, corporate greed and the neoliberal capitalist system, without realising that this neoliberal capitalist system serves only one purpose and profits in only one way: from us buying and consuming what it produces and provides. So instead of putting the guilt trip on other people and each other, they're just putting it on governments, corporations and the "system".

So climate change advocacy is really just a woke fashion statement, something woke to identify with, a way to make friends and fit in, and an outlet for emotional venting of one's hate towards the world and the "system".

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stunet Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 8:09am
gsco wrote:

ok so I think I finally get it.

People identify with being climate change "advocates", and sit around in happy little woke social groups sipping lattes feeling all socially accepted, warm and fuzzy and good about themselves, siding with each other for being so woke, politically correct and socially with the times.

And they like to gang up on and belt with a stick people who have a critical mind and question the "science", and exclude those people from their happy little woke social circles.

But people see themselves in fact as powerless victims of climate change and on the "receiving end" of it, instead of realising that it is in fact their (our) modern lifestyles and living standards that we so highly value, and our high levels of economic development and consumption choices etc, that are the causes of it.

Instead people hold on to the idea that the "real" causes of climate change are in fact evil governments, corporate greed and the neoliberal capitalist system, without realising that this neoliberal capitalist system serves only one purpose and profits in only one way: from us buying and consuming what it produces and provides. So instead of putting the guilt trip on other people and each other, they're just putting it on governments, corporations and the "system".

So climate change advocacy is really just a woke fashion statement, something woke to identify with, a way to make friends and fit in, and an outlet for emotional venting of one's hate towards the world and the "system".

Carrying on like a wanker now.

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Robwilliams Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 11:38am

Climate change advocacy and action is awareness of ones or another's environments and what can be done to prevent or limit further irreversible effects of global damage

I look at it as maintaining or improving the global garden for future health

I don't see it as woke or a fashion statement just a local and global scientificly studied area of expertise that could be learnt from and applied positivitly to improving the global garden for overall sustainability of the qualities of life we take for granted

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GuySmiley Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 12:12pm

The really odd thing about the right’s (in some quarters) resistance to effective action on man made climate change is by definition true conservatism would dictate recognition and remedial action. Which leads to what’s really going on ie reactionary politics (as defined not Shep’s recent brain fart).

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sypkan Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 12:16pm
stunet wrote:
gsco wrote:

ok so I think I finally get it.

People identify with being climate change "advocates", and sit around in happy little woke social groups sipping lattes feeling all socially accepted, warm and fuzzy and good about themselves, siding with each other for being so woke, politically correct and socially with the times.

And they like to gang up on and belt with a stick people who have a critical mind and question the "science", and exclude those people from their happy little woke social circles.

But people see themselves in fact as powerless victims of climate change and on the "receiving end" of it, instead of realising that it is in fact their (our) modern lifestyles and living standards that we so highly value, and our high levels of economic development and consumption choices etc, that are the causes of it.

Instead people hold on to the idea that the "real" causes of climate change are in fact evil governments, corporate greed and the neoliberal capitalist system, without realising that this neoliberal capitalist system serves only one purpose and profits in only one way: from us buying and consuming what it produces and provides. So instead of putting the guilt trip on other people and each other, they're just putting it on governments, corporations and the "system".

So climate change advocacy is really just a woke fashion statement, something woke to identify with, a way to make friends and fit in, and an outlet for emotional venting of one's hate towards the world and the "system".

Carrying on like a wanker now.

not entirely untrue though...

plenty of wonkers out there that do absolutely nothing to mediate their impact, like pretty much the entire biden administration for example...

probably same for labor

I think it's interesting that some take the developing countries apologist view, that lets them off the hook, and blames the west for all cc woes... like gsco with china - a pretty 'woke'position to take btw...

then others pretty much excuse and advocate the west doing nothing, because china is 'the biggest polluter' etc etc ...

surely there is middle ground... there is... stunet explained it up there

I think fully being an apologist for china is pretty dumb, as it ignores a hell of a lot of context... like what we (the west) didn't know when we were developing... the stubborness of our system... and the contribution that that developing has benefitted to the whole world...

conversely, I think it is pretty miserable to blame china for everything, and excuse ourselves, when you look at current consumption patterns and carbon footprints...

china, and other developing countries, actually have the benefit of not entrenching all that carbon intensive infrastucture into their system... if they choose to...

much like indonesia avoiding rolling out all that analogue phone technology everywhere, and going directly to a digital / internet rollout,it has benefitted them immensely, with large parts of indonesia now enjoying better coverage and services than much of australia

similar thing could be done with low carbon infrastructure and micro independent systems everywhere. it is happening, but not on a huge scale

for china and others to follow our path blindly is kinda dumb, and the 'excuse' only half stacks up

at the same time, developed countries could get a lot smarter by loosening regulations and encouraging more 'asian culture' in our system. for example, imagine how many surfers would use an indo style motorbike surfrack set ups, if our laws weren't so prohibitive / nanny state... I know I would...

and, on a larger scale, i think more people would bd willing to use motorbikes more generally if it was a bit safer. which could be easily done by designating motorbike only lanes like indo is doing now. I also think it would be easy and relatively cheap to even make covered lanes for motorbikes to overcome our soft aversion to bad weather

but nah, lets just pump billions and billions into the very exclusionary inequitable electric car dream, where the grid seems to be not even close to being able to cope

and lets not even count the massive carbon footprint transition to the new technology...

fwiw, I haven't done the figures, but I'd be carbon neautral to even carbon negative, but this is good luck as much as good management, as a few flukes have come together in my life, but not everyone is so lucky... and cannot be expected to do so...

having said that, there has been many (semi) conscious decisions Ive made that have lead to these flukes...

conscious decisions are good!

as is a little personal responsibility...

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sypkan Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 1:31pm

"reactionary

but the reactionary left rejected change, to the present detriment of those it claims to represent."

word!

muthafuckers!

https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/reactionary

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sypkan Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 1:45pm
indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 2:04pm
bonza wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

That's crazy logic you and me and others are not victims, because we get something we demand.

Problem these days is everybody wants to be a victim nobody wants to take any responsibility for anything, i guess the growing popularity of victimhood also has to do with there being a kind of power in being a victim.

I wasn‘r talking about you and me indo. Go back to my post and explain to me how I’m wrong. I wasn’t shirking individual responsibility. I was pointing out its insignificance compared to corporate power. Think about when I say victims what I mean.

You are missing the fact Individuals provide corporates with power.

I just think there is such a lazy view among a huge percentage of people that the government and big business have to magically fix everything, while individuals go on as business as usual.

I think you can only have this attitude if you're one of the rare ones making big lifestyle changes and actual personal sacrifices.

Just seems to be little focus on individual responsibility or change, which is weird because past environmental movements seem to be very focussed on the individual.

It's like the people posting on Facebook or Twitter whinging about capitalism and mining or exploited workers in China, while doing it on a huge platform from an apple mac or iPhone etc, it's just crazy and hypocritical.

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AndyM Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 2:42pm

Government legislation provides corporations with power.

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GuySmiley Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 3:12pm

Shep, you’re such a puerile petulant little ponce. Quoting some obscure 4th rate online site and I quote “ … platform in which teens and young adults…” to prove your latest bout of bum splatter…… bahahaha.

Mmm, should the AFP know about you and your creeping around websites catering for “teens and young adults”?

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sypkan Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 3:41pm

and you are such a pompous dinosaur

sorry its not the guardian... but you know... the guardian isn't going to tell YOU what you don't want to hear...

dude, you are the living breathing epitome of a reactionary...

the old guard, opposing change, and desperately holding onto power...

reactionary2 AWL noun (plural reactionaries) [countable]    someone who strongly opposes any social or political change – used to show disapproval

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GuySmiley Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 4:26pm

Dig yourself deeper Shep

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/reactionary

In ideology, reactionism is a tradition in right-wing politics;[2] the reactionary stance opposes policies for the social transformation of society, whereas conservatives seek to preserve the socio-economic structure and order that exists in the present.[3] In popular usage, reactionary refers to a strong traditionalist conservative political perspective of the person who is opposed to social, political, and economic change.[4][5] …. From Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary

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sypkan Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 4:34pm

over and out dude, it was a flippant pay out that blowin and i indulged in on several occasions

but your 'reaction' is very telling...

"reactionary

but the reactionary left rejected change, to the present detriment of those it claims to represent."

https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/reactionary

you really couldn't be anymore fitting in the current political context

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GuySmiley Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 4:53pm

You’re never over and out Shep just try to be factual next time okay

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sypkan Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 5:19pm

but it has become factual!

you prove it nearly every second post

the spectrum is broken

or more so 'shattered'

if ya haven't noticed...

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Hiccups Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 8:52pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
bonza wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

That's crazy logic you and me and others are not victims, because we get something we demand.

Problem these days is everybody wants to be a victim nobody wants to take any responsibility for anything, i guess the growing popularity of victimhood also has to do with there being a kind of power in being a victim.

I wasn‘r talking about you and me indo. Go back to my post and explain to me how I’m wrong. I wasn’t shirking individual responsibility. I was pointing out its insignificance compared to corporate power. Think about when I say victims what I mean.

You are missing the fact Individuals provide corporates with power.

I just think there is such a lazy view among a huge percentage of people that the government and big business have to magically fix everything, while individuals go on as business as usual.

I think you can only have this attitude if you're one of the rare ones making big lifestyle changes and actual personal sacrifices.

Just seems to be little focus on individual responsibility or change, which is weird because past environmental movements seem to be very focussed on the individual.

Fuck man. Big business and government are actively responsible for the OVERWHELMING majority of climate change, are doing FUCK ALL to change that, and it's the common man's job to do their minuscule part, which is akin to spitting on a bushfire? You ninny.

indo-dreaming wrote:

It's like the people posting on Facebook or Twitter whinging about capitalism and mining or exploited workers in China, while doing it on a huge platform from an apple mac or iPhone etc, it's just crazy and hypocritical.

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gsco Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 7:16am
Hiccups wrote:

...Big business and government are actively responsible for the OVERWHELMING majority of climate change, are doing FUCK ALL to change that...

lol.

We are all collectively responsible as consumers of material products and as citizens of developed nations built on the backbone of the industrial revolution, fossil fuel exploitation, and environmental decimation. It is also only fair that developing nations now aspire to this level of development and are trying to escape poverty.

Nothing changes because we as individuals keep consuming the products that big business produces and refuse to budge on our cosy developed nations lifestyle, instead sitting around as fake, pretend, inauthentic climate "campaigners" pointing the finger at and deflecting responsibility and blame to governments, business and high-population developing nations tying to escape of poverty (largely that we induced on them via colonialism and exploitation).

If one believes in and then has a concern about climate change then they should make changes to their cosy high-consumption and high-energy usage lifestyles, or get involved directly in politics campaigning for government regulatory action and incentives for technological research etc, or get directly involved in research trying to develop new technologies for climate change adaptation and mitigation.

I have far more time for people who either don't believe the "science" (what a complete joke that term is nowadays), or don't care about human-accelerated climate change or think that it matters*, and just keep living their lives as they want and see fit. At least they are living authentically.

*The earth has always fluctuated between climate and temperature extremes mostly due to the changing ellipticity of the earth's orbit. Homo sapiens have always had to deal with the consequences of this phenomenon of climate change for the hundreds of thousands of years they have been in existence. It's impossible to prevent climate change.

It's going to happen no matter what so does a slight and temporary acceleration of it by current humans really matter?

The current fashion statement climate change advocacy seems like a whole bunch of woke bullshit to me.

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harrycoopr Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 9:39am

That's stoopid... of course an environmental movement will be a political movement... goes without saying
Anyhoo, an old friend of mine reckons the weather and floods etc are being "engineered"! I kid you not! You seen how big weather systems are... huuuge. Yep man can control weather now! Nup.

It's so sad how many people have gone down this rabbit hole.

Had plenty of friends share me stuff which I've had to dispel. Gets me so angry.

Yeah otherwise intelligent people going bonkers... he explained to me chemtrails... but wouldn't you need an awful lot of chem to influence the shape and intensity of those systems? Yes I've heard of seeding but this is way different. I reckon warmer air holds more moisture or so I'm lead to believe. And anyhoo, how many pilots you need for this "engineering" ? No whistleblowers? World wide events! Not a whisper? He says... it's the gubbament!

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blackers Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 9:41am

Well there you go, Malcolm Roberts comments on Swellnet. Jeebus.

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GuySmiley Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 10:56am
blackers wrote:

Well there you go, Malcolm Roberts comments on Swellnet. Jeebus.

Very funny

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san Guine Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 11:48am

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 11:55am
Hiccups wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
bonza wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

That's crazy logic you and me and others are not victims, because we get something we demand.

Problem these days is everybody wants to be a victim nobody wants to take any responsibility for anything, i guess the growing popularity of victimhood also has to do with there being a kind of power in being a victim.

I wasn‘r talking about you and me indo. Go back to my post and explain to me how I’m wrong. I wasn’t shirking individual responsibility. I was pointing out its insignificance compared to corporate power. Think about when I say victims what I mean.

You are missing the fact Individuals provide corporates with power.

I just think there is such a lazy view among a huge percentage of people that the government and big business have to magically fix everything, while individuals go on as business as usual.

I think you can only have this attitude if you're one of the rare ones making big lifestyle changes and actual personal sacrifices.

Just seems to be little focus on individual responsibility or change, which is weird because past environmental movements seem to be very focussed on the individual.

Fuck man. Big business and government are actively responsible for the OVERWHELMING majority of climate change, are doing FUCK ALL to change that, and it's the common man's job to do their minuscule part, which is akin to spitting on a bushfire? You ninny.

Ha ha no surprise you dont get it.

You know when fossil fuel companies will stop selling fossil fuels?

When the demand isn't there, you want them to stop mining oil, gas, coal or even reduce, change you own habits and seek alternatives where possible.

BTW. Many fossil fuel companies are also the biggest investors in renewables because they aren't silly they diversify and follow the money, Adani is a great example being the single biggest private provider of solar energy in the world and not by a small margin.

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Hiccups Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 12:14pm

"You don't get", says the dimwit who doesn't *get* anything, ever. Keep worshiping late stage capitalism as it chokes the planet, you disgraceful corporate bootlicker.

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Robwilliams Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 1:02pm

.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 2:30pm
Hiccups wrote:

"You don't get", says the dimwit who doesn't *get* anything, ever. Keep worshiping late stage capitalism as it chokes the planet, you disgraceful corporate bootlicker.

See this is what I'm talking about just more dumb irony, whinges about capitalism and big business and its effect on the planet, while actually posting online via the internet, on some mass produced smart phone or PC, using programs/platforms all only possible because of everything you claim to despise but ironically through your actions support.

I just wish you people put your money where your mouth is and just turned your back on mainstream society and went and lived off grid and offline in some commune in whop whop, or moved to the utopia you dream of be it North Korea or Venezuela or whatever or wherever .

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AndyM Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 2:57pm

Indo is a huuuge fan of late stage capitalism.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 4:28pm
AndyM wrote:

Indo is a huuuge fan of late stage capitalism.

Im not even sure i believe in it, to imply you are in the late stage of something implies you are near the end of something, and capitalism in developed democratic countries is very unlikely to end because all the alternatives are far worse and history shows they always fail.

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AndyM Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 5:01pm

Read a book Indo, for fuck's sake.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 5:51pm

On marxist/socialist conspiracy theories?.

No thank you.

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Hiccups Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 6:11pm

Here you go indo. From some commie website.

https://writetorebel.com/2016/05/22/debunking-the-iphone-argument/ wrote:

"A common argument given by capitalists to socialists is that we enjoy the benefits of capitalism, and so it is hypocritical to speak out against it. This is often phrased as something like “Tweeting against capitalism on an iPhone made by capitalism? LOL.” This argument is, to be blunt, incredibly fucking stupid.

For one thing, it says nothing about whether socialism is actually desirable. Enjoying the benefits of capitalism does not invalidate the socialist position. It does not follow from the fact that, “Capitalism made the iPhone” that capitalism is moral or that socialism is not. Just as it does not follow from the fact that abolitionists wore cotton picked by slaves that slavery is moral or that we should not try to abolish it.

Secondly, we do not choose which society we are born into. We do not have control over the fact that we live in a society where in order to survive, let alone lead a happy existence, one must purchase commodities and earn a living with which to gain the means to do so. We are not exercising free choice when we buy things, as we cannot not buy things and lead our lives. We are not free not to go without commodities. We are not free to go without capitalism when we live under it, even if we disagree with it.

However, we are free to buy certain commodities over others. A socialist may be a hypocrite if they chose to buy blood diamonds from Sera Leone, as they do have a free choice about whether or not to purchase those diamonds. But the Internet is no longer a luxury. It is a necessity of life. Imagine trying to get a job or stay abreast of current events without reliable access to it. The extent to which a socialist is a hypocrite is the extent to which they have money, and thus free choice to purchase certain items.

It’s worth noting at this point that capitalism did not, in fact, make the iPhone. Labor did. The ‘-ism’ merely determines who gets paid. Also, most of the technology present in the iPhone actually originated in the State sector, not the so-called ‘free market.’ As Mariana Mazzucato writes in an article for New Scientist, “In [Apple’s] early stages the company received government cash support via a $500,000 small business investment company grant. And every technology that makes the iPhone a smartphone owes its vision and funding to the state: the internet, GPS, touchscreen displays and even the voice-activated smartphone assistant Siri all received state cash. The US Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) bankrolled the internet, and the CIA and the military funded GPS. So, although the US is sold to us as the model example of progress through private enterprise, innovation there has benefited from a very interventionist state.” It is not the case even in theory that capitalism or ‘the free market,’ made the iPhone. At least, not the sort of capitalism people who make this argument usually advocate for. (That version of capitalism has never existed and cannot ever exist, but we’ll get into that another time)

I would also like to mention that slave labor is used to mine cobalt in the Congo, which eventually makes its way into iPhone batteries. Does this mean that when capitalists use an iPhone, they support slave labor? Of course not. Socialists don’t make that argument against you, so why would you make it against them?

My last point is that just because someone is against a given economic system, that does not mean that one is against everything in it or everything that flows from it. I can be in favor of iPhones and laptops and the Internet, all while being against capitalism as a whole. I’m not against everything capitalism does, just certain aspects, which I wish to abolish. Things like wage labor, poverty, and alienation.

But to put it in such absolutist terms, “Either you approve of everything within a given system or you are against everything within it,” is a false dichotomy. This argument holds no water, so please, capitalists, stop making it.

TLDR? See the last paragraph.

"But to put it in such absolutist terms, “Either you approve of everything within a given system or you are against everything within it,” is a false dichotomy. This argument holds no water, so please, capitalists, stop making it."

As for this

indo-dreaming wrote:

Im not even sure i believe in it, to imply you are in the late stage of something implies you are near the end of something, and capitalism in developed democratic countries is very unlikely to end because all the alternatives are far worse and history shows they always fail.

What's the ultimate fail? I'd say it's rendering the planet uninhabitable, which capitalism has nearly finished doing, and if you want to find out how that works, well here's the Youtube suggestions for "capitalism climate change", cos I know you won't read anything.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=capitalism+climate+change