Climate Change

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blowfly started the topic in Wednesday, 1 Jul 2020 at 9:40am

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bonza Wednesday, 7 Sep 2022 at 6:44pm

this charismatic mofo lays it out street like.

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Craig Wednesday, 7 Sep 2022 at 6:52pm

Thanks Bonza, appreciated. Covers quite a lot there.

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Craig Thursday, 8 Sep 2022 at 10:30am

Waveman, really?

Here, have a read of this article which debunks old mate Patrick Moore who didn't found Greenpeace

"He describes himself as a co-founder of Greenpeace but the environmental group refutes this claim. In 2010, it issued a statement saying: “Although Mr Moore played a significant role in Greenpeace Canada for several years, he did not found Greenpeace”.

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/climate-sceptics-shot-at-aussie-data-mi...

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 8 Sep 2022 at 11:08am

Ive listened to countless Patrick Moore videos, interviews, podcast over the years, he definitely played a big role in Green peace early years (fair to call him one of the founder's ) and i think a lot of his views about Green peace basically being influenced by politics, driven by money ignoring some topics in favour of other topics that sell better etc is hard to argue with. (much of what's mentioned in article, that damn i had to subscribe too just to read)

But i also dont buy into his views on climate change as in the science, he always says exactly the same things almost to the word like its scripted and i think there is a lot of aspects he doesn't explain or ignores, plus in many interviews he also doesn't get pulled up on some things or asked questions that he should, which can be frustrating.

I think there is some that dont deny climate change but make some decent arguments against certain narratives, but to me its not this guy if anyone really is paid by fossil fuel companies, i think he is on the top of the list.

Basically i dont trust him but i dont trust Greenpeace either, both seem to be in it for the money these days..

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gsco Thursday, 8 Sep 2022 at 11:13am

Personally, regardless of if climate change is true or not, I think it is wise to jump on the bandwagon and fabricate as much data and false narratives and talk it up as much as possible since it’s a major policy tool the West can use to hinder China, India, Africa etc from accessing resources and developing any further and threatening liberal democratic hegemony…hmm I wonder if that’s what’s actually happening…interesting that China just used the Taiwan issue to back out of climate change coordination with the west…

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bonza Thursday, 8 Sep 2022 at 11:42am

cynical much

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Supafreak Thursday, 8 Sep 2022 at 2:10pm

A penny for your thoughts

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/labor-poised-to-push-through-climate...

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I focus Thursday, 8 Sep 2022 at 3:08pm

Thanks SF haven't seen that, the Coalition have long been Wong

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flollo Thursday, 8 Sep 2022 at 3:14pm

Ok, have they passed this bill or not? I honestly don't care about the Coalition. As he said, they are the leftovers, why is everyone giving them so much attention?

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flollo Thursday, 8 Sep 2022 at 3:28pm

Regenesis by George Monbiot.

I am currently reading this book and it's unbelievably good. I haven't finished it yet but wow, it occupied my thoughts like no other in recent times. I reckon a lot of you would really enjoy it, I highly recommend it.

Broadly, it's about:

'Farming is the world's greatest cause of environmental destruction - and the one we are least prepared to talk about. We criticise urban sprawl, but farming sprawls across thirty times as much land. We have ploughed, fenced and grazed great tracts of the planet, felling forests, killing wildlife, and poisoning rivers and oceans to feed ourselves. Yet millions still go hungry.

Now the food system itself is beginning to falter. But, as George Monbiot shows us in this brilliant, bracingly original new book, we can resolve the biggest of our dilemmas and feed the world without devouring the planet.'

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/58838928-regenesis

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Supafreak Thursday, 8 Sep 2022 at 4:12pm
flollo wrote:

Ok, have they passed this bill or not? I honestly don't care about the Coalition. As he said, they are the leftovers, why is everyone giving them so much attention?

It got passed today

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flollo Thursday, 8 Sep 2022 at 4:15pm

That's great news. Today is a good day!

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Fliplid Thursday, 8 Sep 2022 at 4:55pm

“Farming is the world's greatest cause of environmental destruction - and the one we are least prepared to talk about. We criticise urban sprawl, but farming sprawls across thirty times as much land. We have ploughed, fenced and grazed great tracts of the planet, felling forests, killing wildlife, and poisoning rivers and oceans to feed ourselves.”

Yeah, but, but, but, farmers are fixing the problem, just ask Angus

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gsco Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 7:53am
bonza wrote:

cynical much

Gday bonza, hope you're well.

I'd actually question who's the cynical (and stupid) ones in the climate change wars.

A solid proportion of climate change advocates are really just expressing their own hate, anger, negativity and cynicism towards the western hegemonic neoliberal capitalist system that they live in.

But they still drive cars, live in towns and cities, work in offices and other premises, live in houses and units, go to bars and restaurants, have iphones, ipads, furniture and clothes, etc, use the internet, fly on planes, etc...

Climate change is just cringeworthy hypocrisy to the extreme and another covid: something that has been obscured beyond recognition by being politicised, commercialised, woke-ised, etc.

Mostly though, climate change has become weaponised: it is one of the weapons of choice in the last ditch attempt of the western neoliberal capitalist UK/US colonial system to maintain its hegemony, particularly over China.

These developing countries believe that it's not fair that the west was able to exploit, rape and decimate the environment in order to develop the modern societies with high living standards that we have today, but these developing countries are denied that right.

These countries know that climate change is being used as a weapon against them to prevent them from developing and becoming a threat to the west. This is why China just pulled out of climate change coordination (more accurate to describe it as coercion) with the US.

So all these (hypocritical) people who are supporting the climate change issue thinking that they're "bringing down the system" are actually just reinforcing that system's dominance - so they're not just hypocritical but also just blind and stupid.

The real solution starts locally with one's own behaviour and lifestyle.

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san Guine Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 9:42am

Those climate scientists are right into the subjugation of developing countries and beating up on China. Oh... and reinforcing the 'system'
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/08/world-on-brink-five-...

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bonza Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 9:54am

You are advocating for people to actively engage in disinformation. You are so to quick point out that nothing can be trusted from science and authorities and media yet you promote anarchy and publication of fraudulent information.
There is a strong recognition in the climate space that recognise it’s the rich west countries that overwhelming contributed to a warming planet and therefore it’s the west that should shoulder the majority of action to reduce emissions.

Some men just want to see the world burn.. Don’t they gsco

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stunet Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 10:04am
gsco wrote:

These developing countries believe that it's not fair that the west was able to exploit, rape and decimate the environment in order to develop the modern societies with high living standards that we have today, but these developing countries are denied that right.

These countries know that climate change is being used as a weapon against them to prevent them from developing and becoming a threat to the west..

They may perceive it that way but it's not true. Since the IPCC's Second Assessment in the mid-90s it's been policy that Less Developed Countries are allowed greater emissions based on carbon polluting. An acknowledgement that Developed Counties got rich on the back of cheap energy and now LDC's are owed that same right.

The matrix has changed since then as some countries progressed economically and their allowable emissions subsequently reduced.

It's an imperfect metric as cheap energy isn't the only way countries become affluent - could easily argue the Guns Germs and Steel thesis, or the system of government - but it has been policy for close to three decades. I often read FB posts from people decrying the imbalance, but they're wholly unaware of this quasi quota system, which is attempting to balance rates of progress.

The long game is, as I think Bonza is alluding to, that it's likely living standards will drop everywhere unless collective action is taken. Also, even if AGM isn't real, energy independence will lead to a much more stable world - a boon for small to middle powers. In the last few years there have been huge gains in the renewable sector, and they will only increase exponentially.

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gsco Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 10:26am

Acknowledged.

Bonza I was being sarcastic about the disinformation thing.

Climate change is real. It was caused by us, the developed nations, and still predominately is - by the lifestyles that you and I enjoy, take for granted and don’t want to compromise on.

But developing countries should not be denied the right to the same living standards we enjoy.

Looking at basic metrics and relationships between energy usage, emissions, human development, living standards, GDP per capita, in the absence of some kind of absolutely and seemingly miraculous technological innovation, developing nations with their huge populations catching up to our quality of life - for which they have every right - will yield monumental environmental destruction like nothing we’ve seen yet.

In the absence of a technological miracle we as westerners need a complete systematic change in our way of life.

Anyone who advocates for climate change by deflecting responsibility to governments and corporations to do something, and is not making systematic changes to their lives right here and now, or is not spending ever waking moment trying to find that miracle, is living a lie and is not worth taking seriously. But this seems to be 99 out of 100 people.

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stunet Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 10:44am
gsco wrote:

Anyone who advocates for climate change by deflecting responsibility to governments and corporations to do something, and is not making systematic changes to their lives right here and now, or is not spending ever waking moment trying to find that miracle, is living a lie and is not worth taking seriously. But this seems to be 99 out of 100 people.

Bollocks, mate.

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gsco Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 10:49am

Which part?

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DudeSweetDudeSweet Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 10:52am
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stunet Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 11:00am

Last paragraph. Not sure how much lived experience you have, but to me that's a cut and paste of the right wing accusation against action. No person is an island in a social system, so we're beholden to the government that rules. We're similarly beholden to the market system that offers (or doesn't offer) choices that fit.

Sure, you can live the life of a hermit. I've seen old uni friends do that, and though it's becoming slightly easier (internet etc.) it's still a mentally tough road - we're social animals after all.

I've also seen many people fall apart at the immense foreboding AGM presents. The clear-eyed view is fucking catastrophic if you dare to look beyond the seasons, the years, and onwards into the life of your children. How do you operate in the here and now knowing that..?

Nah, fuck that, do your bit, try and live a good life, reduce your imprint, pray like fuck that you're wrong, but don't go putting guilt trips on people for "living a lie" and not "taking things seriously".

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harrycoopr Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 11:03am
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/greenpeace-co-founder-patrick-moore-sa...

That's stoopid... of course an environmental movement will be a political movement... goes without saying
Anyhoo, an old friend of mine reckons the weather and floods etc are being "engineered"! I kid you not! You seen how big weather systems are... huuuge. Yep man can control weather now! Nup.

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DudeSweetDudeSweet Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 11:10am

If what you say is true and humans can’t influence the weather, then you’d better get the word out there because many people believe that humans are changing the global climate and as a result we are all going to drown or freeze or starve or something else really, really bad.

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Robwilliams Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 11:27am

A little more for conspiracy?. Why is education expertise the foundation of modern man when you can just lie, cheat and steal?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-09-09/climate-change-scientists...

Quote
Nah, fuck that, do your bit, try and live a good life, reduce your imprint, pray like fuck that you're wrong, but don't go putting guilt trips on people for "living a lie" and not "taking things seriously".

If I live a lie my whole life do I get a discount at death? And what is the point of higher education amongst the sciences if it is ignored or dismissed at whim? All or nothing has always been a bit limiting both argumentative and in action. No wonder we are failing. We are unable to adapt to possible looming truths at need. Keep burning raping and pillaging. Im sure we will go far after all we have our conspiracy theories and phones to save us.

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Craig Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 11:21am
harrycoopr wrote:
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/greenpeace-co-founder-patrick-moore-sa...

That's stoopid... of course an environmental movement will be a political movement... goes without saying
Anyhoo, an old friend of mine reckons the weather and floods etc are being "engineered"! I kid you not! You seen how big weather systems are... huuuge. Yep man can control weather now! Nup.

It's so sad how many people have gone down this rabbit hole.

Had plenty of friends share me stuff which I've had to dispel. Gets me so angry.

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gsco Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 11:28am

Cool, Stu.

The book Sapiens (and many others) makes a good argument for roughly the idea that the ingenuity of humanity will find a way.

All I know is even setting aside climate change, things like resource and energy usage and shortages and crises, clean water and food shortages and crises, loss of biodiversity and habitat, other forms of pollution than climate change emissions, deforestation and salinity, loss of topsoil, etc - based on the current level of technology of humanity and global population size, for developing nations to catch up to us in gdp per capita, resource and energy usage, overall economic development and quality of life, the consequences for all these factors, and conflict over it all, is incomprehensible.

Climate change seems to be the least of one’s environmental worries.

But maybe I’m wrong and there’s nothing to worry about.

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Robwilliams Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 11:34am

Consume at all costs. Our needed adaptation takes time but also some will see necessity and some will not. Thus if you are aware of changing climate and visible ongoing climate problems you may choose to make change. If not no worries but when the last boats full its full which ever generation bears the brunt of past inaction and deflection. How much money does one need for heaven or hell? Not much.

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stunet Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 11:39am

I absolutely agree that, if AGM is real, humans will find a way to survive; that human ingenuity will triumph.

Whether that happens in the lifetime of my kids and yours is a different matter.

Sounds melodramatic, hey?

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Robwilliams Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 12:06pm

Spot on. Sad that it's true but these are the times and what we have somewhat accepted. People are taking action and if the climate problems continue to increase they will become to large to be ignored. Transitioning to a healthier world has somewhat been stalled by vested interest, neglect and the too hard basket. Whilst on the other hand a whole number of people who are environmentally aware and concerned are taking action, big or large regardless. Every bit counts and momentum has been globally building amongst concerned citizens.

Environmental science is all around us regardless of the conspiracies being counter created, adapted or exaggerated. Keeping the truth off balance is easy it seems compared to accepting the scientific truths. Heads in the sand are just that heads in the sand. No denying it. Should I question my government before I question my teachers, lectures or advisors? Or just question them all? And why should I believe what is being dismissed when it has been proven scientifically as fact. Bit like the Russians and thier oblivious nature to the hazards of nuclear power in war zones. Farcical but it plays to an advantage so they exploit it. Maybe it's time to exploit those that exploit the truth to the betterment of modern man. No conspiracies no agendas but factual progression of proven science. From the classroom to the boardroom.

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sypkan Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 12:26pm
Craig wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/greenpeace-co-founder-patrick-moore-sa...

That's stoopid... of course an environmental movement will be a political movement... goes without saying
Anyhoo, an old friend of mine reckons the weather and floods etc are being "engineered"! I kid you not! You seen how big weather systems are... huuuge. Yep man can control weather now! Nup.

It's so sad how many people have gone down this rabbit hole.

Had plenty of friends share me stuff which I've had to dispel. Gets me so angry.

dunno that
its that 'stoopid'

'peace' was a big big part of 'greenpeace' back in the day...

as was 'green'...

one could argue that war was won... but one could also argue that the war machine just changed focus, and transposed it's issues onto less inconvenient grounds...

good article, raises many great points why a certain cohort has given up on greenpeace and many contemporary 'left' leaders

ya average biden's and pelosi's preaching to me - whilst changing practically nothing within their own lives - is insulting to say the least...

and a big part of that insult is the cultism, nicheness, and tokenism of their arguments... very similar to when turned up to the whitehouse or whereever it was, in 'traditional' african garb amidst the blm chaos...

their cluelessness and lack of self awareness is astounding

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waveman Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 12:30pm
Robwilliams wrote:
A little more for conspiracy?. Why is education expertise the foundation of modern man when you can just lie, cheat and steal?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-09-09/climate-change-scientists...

Setting a flare on fire to draw attention to his fear of too many CO2 emissions: a scientist apparently…

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Robwilliams Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 12:38pm

Life may be easier and more convenient when some lie cheat and steal. But we may or may not live openly or for long depending on the circumstances or the circumstances to come. Society functions better with a common goal of health. Environmentally and socially. Proven through the ages. How ready are we to turn our backs on overall health for little gain? Both environmentally and socially worldwide? Time will tell.

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sypkan Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 12:40pm
Craig wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/greenpeace-co-founder-patrick-moore-sa...

That's stoopid... of course an environmental movement will be a political movement... goes without saying
Anyhoo, an old friend of mine reckons the weather and floods etc are being "engineered"! I kid you not! You seen how big weather systems are... huuuge. Yep man can control weather now! Nup.

It's so sad how many people have gone down this rabbit hole.

Had plenty of friends share me stuff which I've had to dispel. Gets me so angry.

got a mate and neighbour who buy into some of this shit

like most good 'conspiracies', buying in perhaps isn't as ridiculous as it may seem...

cloud seeding around jakarta to avert more flooding...

and, farmers cloud seeding to avert drought gives plenty of ammunition...

throw in a bit of chemtrails, changing weather, and gratuitous lying and exaggerating from governments and various groups..

and bingo!

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Robwilliams Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 12:56pm
waveman][quote=Robwilliams wrote:

A little more for conspiracy?. Why is education expertise the foundation of modern man when you can just lie, cheat and steal?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-09-09/climate-change-scientists...

Setting a flare on fire to draw attention to his fear of too many CO2 emissions: a scientist apparently…

A flare is mild in comparison compared to a rock. Clutching at straws, whats the overall message? Keep picking the factual arguments apart. Just tell me when I can Lie cheat and steal. Im sure I can make a go of it if my education fails me or society leaves me no choice. Because after all we still have choice right? Who cares if its positive or not right or wrong socially or environmentally speaking. Playing the easy game is just that easy.

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AndyM Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 12:55pm

Couple of semi-random responses.

"of course an environmental movement will be a political movement... goes without saying"
This seems obvious, how else are you going to assert your beliefs in a wider context other than by political means?

"It's so sad how many people have gone down this rabbit hole."
There appears to be a shitload of people out there who are going with the 'governments/corporations controlling weather' schtick.
People bail me up pretty regularly, unsolicited.
"There's no point addressing climate change until we deal with governments controlling the weather", they say. "After all, the Lismore floods were a plot against people who were questioning the narrative and knew the Truth."

"I've also seen many people fall apart at the immense foreboding AGW presents."
Good lord I feel sorry for the kids.
Between AGW, race, gender, sexism, colonialism, white guilt, bullying, housing affordability and all the other real and perceived issues (all supercharged by the media and social media) is it any wonder that depression and anxiety are through the roof?

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Robwilliams Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 1:07pm

Kids of today got to be strong. The time is now just as it was before and into the future. We are what we accept or create. No excuses. Learn from the past. Don't cover the truth to a healthier world. A simple healthier global progression is possible, but not without the continuing of questions or to adhering to proven factually evidence. Vote with the freedom of feet and the inquisitively of mind to a healthier world. Simple stuff.

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stunet Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 1:14pm

Sorta sounds like a bunch of platitudes, Rob. What does it actually mean?

Even though I wasn't referring to kids, AndyM is on the mark that they're bombarded from all directions with the woes of the world. That needs to be taken into account when assessing declining mental health rates.

FWIW I shielded my kids from as much climate change stuff as was possible. Still do for the younger ones. Don't take them to marches, don't make them do school presentations on it, don't speak about it at the dinner table, turn off the radio when it's on etc etc. Try and do the same for the other issues Andy listed.

Their time to engage will come, let 'em play.

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AndyM Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 1:30pm

Another thought with a bit of cross-thread borrowing which is relevant here.

Blowin says, politically, that we're all rooted and it's impossible for a current version of democracy to make useful decisions with regards to AGW or otherwise.
At the same time, old mate Indo figures we're all too dumb to be entrusted with important political decisions.

Notwithstanding that Australian politics is heavily compromised, I think we're already heading in a positive direction.
The electorate are aware of the problems facing it, and can see that the two majors either aren't up to the challenge or aren't adequately representing its constituents. This is evidenced by a continued slide in support for LibLab and a significant swing towards independents in the last election.
Point being, people are indeed voting with their feet and, despite our two-party system I do have hopes for policy moving in a positive direction, socially, environmentally and economically.
It'll be a long road with plenty of miss-steps but I thing we'll get there eventually.
The only question is, what will it look like by the time the ship has changed course, especially with regard to the state of both the environment and wealth inequality.

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sypkan Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 1:33pm
stunet wrote:

Sorta sounds like a bunch of platitudes, Rob. What does it actually mean?

Even though I wasn't referring to kids, AndyM is on the mark that they're bombarded from all directions with the woes of the world. That needs to be taken into account when assessing declining mental health rates.

FWIW I shielded my kids from as much climate change stuff as was possible. Still do for the younger ones. Don't take them to marches, don't make them do school presentations on it, don't speak about it at the dinner table, turn off the radio when it's on etc etc. Try and do the same for the other issues Andy listed.

Their time to engage will come, let 'em play.

good for you!

kids as accesories at climate change marches are the ickyest thing ever...

aside from the facebook photos showing them off

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Robwilliams Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 1:51pm

I had to read what platitudes mean as i wasn't sure.
Meaning of platitude in English

platitude
noun [ C ] disapproving
UK /ˈplæt.ɪ.tjuːd/ US /ˈplæt̬.ə.tuːd/

a remark or statement that may be true but is boring and has no meaning because it has been said so many times before:
He doesn't mouth platitudes about it not mattering who scores as long as the team wins.

I have been platituding in some regards my whole life. Although I try where I can. At this stage of the game it beats lying cheating and stealing. I will let the youth of today do it their way. Hopefully their positivity is shaken, stirred or awakened to the belief of positive thought and action to global change. Maybe I'm a dreamer but I still believe in a better world. The time is now and as ever action counts. Be it I'm platituding or not. Youth of today will or will not stand up wether they are called or pushed.

I want to see them rise above, and evolve to a better world because they are the future of man. For all the shitty deals and misconceptions that bring us to points of change like these, someones or somethings had to suffer. Either by free choice or forced choice. Man is his own god to some extent. If I give up the belief of positive change what have I got to be proud of or inspired by? Fuck all, my generation or the next, and the one after that. I can't do that despite some of the facts, we still fight.

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sypkan Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 1:51pm

"The long game is, as I think Bonza is alluding to, that it's likely living standards will drop everywhere unless collective action is taken. Also, even if AGM isn't real, energy independence will lead to a much more stable world - a boon for small to middle powers. In the last few years there have been huge gains in the renewable sector, and they will only increase exponentially."

if only the machine could sell it that way...

without all the hyperbole, us and them bullshit, false blame, fear mongering, and uncertain certainty...

and the latest abomination in own goals... linking it to 'white supremacy'!

the cultism and cluelessness really is astounding

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stunet Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 1:54pm

Fuck, I keep saying AGM and not AGW.

I've never sat in on an AGM in my life.

And sorry Rob, didn't mean it was boring, just that they were obviously meaningful statements but I couldn't understand the impetus behind them. Cheers.

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AndyM Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 2:09pm

I'm sure we all knew what you meant Stu :)
Some sort of lysdexia kicking in.

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Robwilliams Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 2:14pm

Change of ideas? From the top down has always been a too much to ask. Some people stop asking because it's easier. But if more people ask for a change be it positive it is more likely to be delivered or at least encouraged.

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Peter Reynolds Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 2:12pm

There's a book called "freakanomics" by Stephen Dubner and Steven Levitt, very interesting chapter on Climate Change in there, might surprise some people, written by some of the sharpest minds on the planet.

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Robwilliams Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 2:13pm
stunet wrote:

Fuck, I keep saying AGM and not AGW.

I've never sat in on an AGM in my life.

And sorry Rob, didn't mean it was boring, just that they were obviously meaningful statements but I couldn't understand the impetus behind them. Cheers.

I'm dyslexic as a gorilla on a wild rant at times.

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Robwilliams Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 2:44pm

I should have just written I applaud those that take a stand for the betterment of modern man through science or whatever avenue they choose fit. Despite the opposition to facts on and from the ground.

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Robwilliams Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 2:50pm

.