Interesting stuff

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Blowin started the topic in Friday, 21 Jun 2019 at 8:01am

Have it cunts

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 10:01am
bonza wrote:

I watched the whole program. I didn’t see it like that DSDS. I saw grants question more as a direct opportunity.. a wish even for Perkins to present his case for merit v quota. Stan seemed to be challenging the panel to cut the politico babble bullshit (Perkins response) and state their position.
That was my viewpoint anyway. Not defending Stan. Just my view on how I saw the question.

Yeah it was an opportunity for Perkins to state his case but I think something along the lines of "What benefits and opportunities do you think having an Indigenous..." etc would have been less aggressive and less inflammatory.
Presumably Grant did it for colour and to stir controversy.
Nevertheless, Stan Grant a bit of a legend, something close to a national treasure.

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soggydog Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 10:02am

When false ideology has waged a war on science, corrupted public opinion, stacked governance boards and run strong disinformation campaigns to maintain the profits of a few…….. what do you expect scientists to do?

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AndyM Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 10:46am

Seems like you're mixing two very different examples of false ideology Soggy.
One for financial gain and one for an(arguably misguided) attempt at social righteousness.

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gsco Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 11:40am
sypkan wrote:

well that's pretty much game over...

when 'nature' - the world's most prestigious science journal - gives up on objectivity for political ideology the world is officially cooked...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/quillette.com/2022/08/28/the-fall-of-nature...

at least they acted like they were objective throughout corona...

now they're pretty much admitting... 'no more acting - we're ideologically driven'

I honestly cannot believe it!

This is interesting. Can be seen as woke infiltrating science.

But I actually support the perspective somewhat, for the following reason.

It's easy to think that "science" is some kind of "bedrock" of knowledge that gets set in stone and built upon over time as more "scientific knowledge" is discovered. Hence it's easy to think that science is actually building something factual, true and correct.

But this is a complete fallacy, particularly in the social sciences (and even biology, physics, etc).

At any point in time, all scientific "knowledge" is simply humanity's most educated guess at reality. The whole point of scientific progress is that previous "science" is falsified, overturned, and replaced with new "science".

History is full of instances in which that point in time's theories and thinking in science was very detrimental to certain parts of the population, and yet was completely falsified and overturned later, with the whole episode swept under the rug (and often deleted from the history books) as embarrassing (ie Hitler?).

Of course biology and psychology are great and completely cringeworthy cases in point. Precious theories and "knowledge" in these areas supported racist and other practices for decades and even centuries.

In any case all "scientific knowledge" should be take with a grain of salt with the full understanding that, apart from the area of pure mathematics, it is subject to being demonstrated as embarrassingly wrong and falsified in the future.

It goes without saying that this should be even more so with current "scientific knowledge" that has negative implications for certain groups in society.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 11:52am

As we continue to self-censor, walk eggshells and tie ourselves in knots.

"Self-flagellation is the disciplinary and devotional practice of flogging oneself with whips or other instruments that inflict pain. In Christianity, self-flagellation is practiced in the context of the doctrine of the mortification of the flesh and is seen as a spiritual discipline. It is often used as a form of penance and is intended to allow the flagellant to bring his or her focus to God [or other ideology]".

What a time to be alive!
We really do appear to be in the process of developing a curious, twisted new religion ironically centred around nihilism.

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AndyM Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 12:01pm

" nihilism is actually much more closely related to idealism than to cynicism.
The cynic presents himself or herself as a realist, as someone who cares about actions, not intentions, who focuses on what people do rather than on what people hope to achieve, who remembers the failed promises of the past in order to avoid being swept up in the not-yet-failed promises about the future.
The idealist, however, rejects cynicism as hopelessly negative.
By focusing on intentions, on hopes, and on the future, the idealist is able to provide a positive vision to oppose the negativity of the cynic.
But in rejecting cynicism, does the idealist also reject reality?"

https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/what-nihilism-is-not/

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sypkan Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 12:32pm
gsco wrote:
sypkan wrote:

well that's pretty much game over...

when 'nature' - the world's most prestigious science journal - gives up on objectivity for political ideology the world is officially cooked...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/quillette.com/2022/08/28/the-fall-of-nature...

at least they acted like they were objective throughout corona...

now they're pretty much admitting... 'no more acting - we're ideologically driven'

I honestly cannot believe it!

This is interesting. Can be seen as woke infiltrating science.

But I actually support the perspective somewhat, for the following reason.

It's easy to think that "science" is some kind of "bedrock" of knowledge that gets set in stone and built upon over time as more "scientific knowledge" is discovered. Hence it's easy to think that science is actually building something factual, true and correct.

But this is a complete fallacy, particularly in the social sciences (and even biology, physics, etc).

At any point in time, all scientific "knowledge" is simply humanity's most educated guess at reality. The whole point of scientific progress is that previous "science" is falsified, overturned, and replaced with new "science".

History is full of instances in which that point in time's theories and thinking in science was very detrimental to certain parts of the population, and yet was completely falsified and overturned later, with the whole episode swept under the rug (and often deleted from the history books) as embarrassing (ie Hitler?).

Of course biology and psychology are great and completely cringeworthy cases in point. Precious theories and "knowledge" in these areas supported racist and other practices for decades and even centuries.

In any case all "scientific knowledge" should be take with a grain of salt with the full understanding that, apart from the area of pure mathematics, it is subject to being demonstrated as embarrassingly wrong and falsified in the future.

It goes without saying that this should be even more so with current "scientific knowledge" that has negative implications for certain groups in society.

totally agree gsco

you clearly have a deeper understanding of the history and theories...

post modernism is real - which is an oxymonron....

but facets of the theory are 'true' and 'real' ...and show in the examples you have given...

however, if science doesn't at a minimum strive for objectivity... what is left to differentiate it from anything else?

any other pursuit or endeavours steeped in self interest?

what authority will it have in a digital landscape drenched in opinion and propaganda?

none...

'nature' journal has just opened a massive door of complications for any argument they may present going forward regarding things like climate change etc.

(as if the science communty hadn't already undermined any waning credibility they had with the corona debacle...)

dark times ahead...

yes that dark too

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adam12 Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 12:41pm

"History is full of instances in which that point in time's theories and thinking in science was very detrimental to certain parts of the population, and yet was completely falsified and overturned later, with the whole episode swept under the rug (and often deleted from the history books) as embarrassing (ie Hitler?). "
While I agree with your post I don't agree with this bit. The Nazi Final Solution was based on evolutionary humanism which was not mainstream scientific thought then or at any time in modern history. Only to them did it make any sense. It wasn't swept under any rug or deleted from history, it is extremely well documented so that it is never forgotten.

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AndyM Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 12:46pm

"negative implications for certain groups in society."

Sounds like science is packing up its bat and ball and going home, just in case someone gets their fee fees hurt and unleashes an ungodly shitstorm via social media.

Yes science is imperfect but it's the best we've got short of regressing back to ideologies based around opinion, which are way more susceptible to bastardisation then empirical evidence.

I kind of feel like the culture wars have shifted into another gear with the result that, as usual, the regressive left have kicked another massive own goal as neoliberalism, for the time being at least, takes advantage of this for continued shitfuckery e.g. Labor paying lip service to being woke while releasing more huge areas for exploration for fossil fuels.
Bait and switch.
Or, simply, "look at this shiny trinket over here".

I kinda see that as being the future for quite some time - people voting for parties seen as socially progressive even though they're neoliberal through and through.
Little talk of real economic redistribution, zero talk of class.
Smoke and mirrors.

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velocityjohnno Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 1:03pm

NASA Live feed, Artemis I launch within 24hrs now, next gen Moon rocket,

https://www.nasa.gov/content/live-coverage-of-nasas-artemis-i-mission-to...

Inspiring stuff!

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sypkan Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 1:04pm

"...I kinda see that as being the future for quite some time - people voting for parties seen as socially progressive even though they're neoliberal through and through.
Little talk of real economic redistribution, zero talk of class.
Smoke and mirrors."

it would seem, that's the whole point

the clinton's and co. are so beholden to their 'beliefs'... no one else gets a look in

while the apologists may call it 'realpolitic' ...or present any number of other excuses...

the hubris, disregard, and self belief, clearly runs much deeper

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gsco Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 3:10pm

How about previous theories of race, and the resulting Eurocentrism and justification of colonialism and the slave trade, theories which were put to bed due to the rise of genetics:

Any "scientific theory" in the social (and some physical like biological) sciences that has negative implications for things like racism, sexism, homophobia, etc, should be heavily scrutinised and thought twice about.

The current epoch in history is not distinguished or of any special importance relative to any previous epoch. In 100 years humanity will cringe at most of the body of social science knowledge like we do at it as it was 100 years ago.

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DudeSweetDudeSweet Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 3:38pm

Yeah, nah.

It’s science. It’s objective by definition. If someone poses some freak out racist/ sexist theory it should be dismantled objectively. The idea is to debate science rationally and leave outlandish suggestions hoist on the petard of their own ideological stupidity.

Having some unelected gatekeeper from the privately owned publishing world arbitrarily decide which science is acceptable to their whim, prerogatives and sensibilities is a long step towards abandoning the objectivity of science altogether.

Nature is showing it’s true colours again.

Reputation thoroughly thrown in the toilet.

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sypkan Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 3:47pm

you're mixing social sciences with pure science

'nature' is a science journal

whilst there is clearly crossover, as you show, in the modern context, there is clear distinction too

social sciences long ago adopted non objective methods to 'understand' stuff... perhaps too much so in the modern context, many would argue...

science is nothing without scientific method, which requires objective observation of results - even inconvenient ones... inconvenient ones which will now be often be ignored / never published, as the article shows...

inconvenient results are what often drives the big break throughs in science

science is already censored and political, despite what many may claim

but to not even entertain certain studies because they 'may' portray some group in a bad light is the road to mass ignorance, propaganda, and the worst of totally missing the ball groupthink...

I think our recent little dabble with that has clearly shown the dangers of that road

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sypkan Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 4:03pm
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:

Yeah, nah.

It’s science. It’s objective by definition. If someone poses some freak out racist/ sexist theory it should be dismantled objectively. The idea is to debate science rationally and leave outlandish suggestions hoist on the petard of their own ideological stupidity.

Having some unelected gatekeeper from the privately owned publishing world arbitrarily decide which science is acceptable to their whim, prerogatives and sensibilities is a long step towards abandoning the objectivity of science altogether.

Nature is showing it’s true colours again.

Reputation thoroughly thrown in the toilet.

you really gotta to wonder where such a push is coming from...

like really really wonder...

there must be so many cats on the boards and affiliated with the publication that think its a disgraceful development

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Craig Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 4:08pm

Wonder if they'll back track seeing all the negative feedback?

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DudeSweetDudeSweet Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 4:23pm

Craig…no doubt the owners of Nature are highly sensitive to how I react to their editorials.

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bonza Monday, 29 Aug 2022 at 8:45pm

Take it with a grain of salt”. GSCO words. That’s pretty much the modus operandi of a scientist isn’t it? If one wants the best we have pursuit of knowledge through science that investigates the natural world to become more of an agent of change for social justice then congratulations this is a step in the right direction.

Not without precedent. Scientific American published a crock of shit recently calling E.O Wilson a racist

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wally Tuesday, 30 Aug 2022 at 7:07am

The science publishing policy thing isn’t about the famed “Nature” scientific journal, first published in 1869. It’s referring to “Nature Human Behavior”, a much smaller and more niche publication first established in 2017.

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stunet Tuesday, 30 Aug 2022 at 7:34am

From the Bight to the Gong! Overnight Equinor partnered in the proposed Illawarra wind farm.

Energy for the Illawarra, 67% of dividends for the Norwegian government.

State intervention doesn't work.

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san Guine Tuesday, 30 Aug 2022 at 7:56am

About time, now all the other States will have to fall into line or lose more nurses to Victoria. Who could possibly have foreseen a crisis in nursing?????!!!
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/aug/30/free-degrees-for-...

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sypkan Tuesday, 30 Aug 2022 at 9:40am
wally wrote:

The science publishing policy thing isn’t about the famed “Nature” scientific journal, first published in 1869. It’s referring to “Nature Human Behavior”, a much smaller and more niche publication first established in 2017.

you're right

I got sucked in by their misleadung title, i was wondering why it wasnt more widely reported

it still sucks, but not the turnaround i thought it was. I just created a storm in a tea cup, sorry about that, i'll go hide in the corner for a while

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bonza Tuesday, 30 Aug 2022 at 6:01pm
wally wrote:

The science publishing policy thing isn’t about the famed “Nature” scientific journal, first published in 1869. It’s referring to “Nature Human Behavior”, a much smaller and more niche publication first established in 2017.

Nevertheless it carries the Nature brand and the gravitas that comes from that. But if one wanted to argue that social sciences isn’t a real science anyway than the above decision provides a (another?) good example why.

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san Guine Thursday, 1 Sep 2022 at 9:45am
blackers's picture
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blackers Thursday, 1 Sep 2022 at 11:14am
udo's picture
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udo Friday, 2 Sep 2022 at 6:27pm

Supafreak's picture
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Supafreak Sunday, 4 Sep 2022 at 11:33am

Looking forward to 4 corners on Monday night. Surely AJ can’t last too much longer in his job as chief profiteer. https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2022/09/03/qantas-keeper...

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andy-mac Sunday, 4 Sep 2022 at 12:56pm
Supafreak wrote:

Looking forward to 4 corners on Monday night. Surely AJ can’t last too much longer in his job as chief profiteer. https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2022/09/03/qantas-keeper...

'The Spirit of Australia'
Sad.....

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Supafreak Thursday, 8 Sep 2022 at 7:22pm

Lufthansa paid back its debt, Qantas bought its own shares https://michaelwest.com.au/lufthansa-paid-back-its-debt-qantas-bought-it... What’s the scam? The German government lent the money (1m euros), jobs were saved, service standards preserved. The Australian government gave billions in public subsidies instead of loans, standards plummeted and 9,400 lost their jobs while management banked the JobKeeper.
The scam is that, unlike many of the world’s airlines, Qantas is not bound by any minimum service obligations, let alone an obligation to pay the money back. #better economic managers

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andy-mac Thursday, 8 Sep 2022 at 7:22pm
Supafreak wrote:

Lufthansa paid back its debt, Qantas bought its own shares https://michaelwest.com.au/lufthansa-paid-back-its-debt-qantas-bought-it... What’s the scam? The German government lent the money (1m euros), jobs were saved, service standards preserved. The Australian government gave billions in public subsidies instead of loans, standards plummeted and 9,400 lost their jobs while management banked the JobKeeper.
The scam is that, unlike many of the world’s airlines, Qantas is not bound by any minimum service obligations, let alone an obligation to pay the money back.

Spirit of Australia!!

truebluebasher's picture
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truebluebasher Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 1:20am

This guy has got some bottle...OMG!

Wot is even more frightful...New UK PM had just shared a cup of tea with the Queen.
Is London Bridge falling Down?

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truebluebasher Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 12:30pm

Should we expect any Change?
1981 Queen / Prince / Princess Australian 50c Coins
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0118/3652/2558/products/Untitled_2_7ae...
2008 Queen / Prince UK 5 pound Coin
https://www.coinnews.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/2008-Prince-of-Wales...
2018 Queen / Prince UK 5 pound coin
https://www.changechecker.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/70th-Birthday-o...
2023 Aussie Coins are changing...to King Charles Coins. ($5 Note > Eminent Aussie?)
https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/huge-changes-...

Reckon the Monarch loving Yanks will pay a $Trillion for all our Aussie Queen coins!
Seriously worth considering! Pay off the debt!

seeds's picture
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seeds Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 8:30pm
Supafreak wrote:

Looking forward to 4 corners on Monday night. Surely AJ can’t last too much longer in his job as chief profiteer. https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2022/09/03/qantas-keeper...

Disappointing but not surprising revelations on 4 Corners and now this
https://apple.news/ASE9a4zvPRg2gB0T6eUShHw

seeds's picture
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seeds Friday, 9 Sep 2022 at 11:06pm

The Lions had a ripper second half and broke the G hoodoo. It’s on!!!!!

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blackers Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 12:17pm
seeds wrote:

The Lions had a ripper second half and broke the G hoodoo. It’s on!!!!!

Enjoy but I can't see them getting past the Cats. Melbourne looked lost from half time. Brilliant moves by Fagan after the break, coach's win.

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seeds Saturday, 10 Sep 2022 at 1:44pm

Either way it’s one step further than they have gotten last couple of years so I’m stoked. They were written off against the Tigers. I was at the Gabba and it was an incredible game and win.
They were written off last night also and an amazing fight back to win. Gotta be heaps of confidence gained after breaking their previous finals let downs and to win at the G also after a hell of a long time so hopefully it will be a good showing win or lose.

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Supafreak Tuesday, 13 Sep 2022 at 12:38pm

5602-EE27-5-BD1-4218-832-A-C7-B88-CB1-E98-E

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blackers Tuesday, 13 Sep 2022 at 1:56pm
Supafreak wrote:

5602-EE27-5-BD1-4218-832-A-C7-B88-CB1-E98-E

Gold.

san Guine's picture
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san Guine Wednesday, 14 Sep 2022 at 7:50am

Excellent opinion piece on a debate Australia seems to be unable (or too immature) to have. Treating our elderly with respect and having a true (nonemotional) discussion about ageing, death and dying.

Let's remove the histrionics and talk about the realities

"Beds are filled with the frail and elderly suffering conditions that are manageable but not curable. These patients spend a long time in hospital, which would be OK if they benefited, but many don’t. Instead, hospitalisation swaps one problem for another and leaves them deconditioned, isolated, and confused."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/14/there-is-no-magic-...

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Supafreak Wednesday, 14 Sep 2022 at 1:24pm

Old beetroot and morriscum sure do get around

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stunet Thursday, 15 Sep 2022 at 11:38am

Air Niugini have pulled out of their Brisbane - FSM route so currently there are no direct flights from Australia to Pohnpei.

If you want to go to P-Pass you'll have to fly to Hawaii and take the island hopper towards Guam, or fly to somewhere in Asia, then Guam and get the island hopper heading back to Hawaii. Either way is costly and time-consuming.

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carpetman Thursday, 15 Sep 2022 at 1:15pm

Where'd you dig that info up from Stu?

Is it just that they haven't re-started the route after COVID? Or it's over for good?

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stunet Thursday, 15 Sep 2022 at 1:38pm
carpetman wrote:

Where'd you dig that info up from Stu?

Is it just that they haven't re-started the route after COVID? Or it's over for good?

From Allois. It's on his IG account.

He says it's the first time in thirty years that Australians haven't been able to fly direct to Pohnpei but I don't think that's correct. First time I went I had to fly QANTAS to Guam, then connect with Continental's island hopper.

More recently, Air Niugini filled the route from 2016 onwards but they stopped it in mid-2020 and haven't resumed it.

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ringostarr Thursday, 15 Sep 2022 at 3:07pm

I've been investigating flights there recently and the overall flight time and cost is a massive disincentive. There are too many other options that are cheaper and closer. If a bunch of Swellnetians email Air Niugini and express interest in them opening up the route again it might get them thinking. It can't hurt.
[email protected] or the form on https://www.airniugini.com.pg/about-us/contact-us/

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carpetman Thursday, 15 Sep 2022 at 4:36pm

If you live in northern Aus the PNG route was ok but from anywhere else it was still a pain.

Internal flight to Bris. Fly to PNG. Island hopper from there.

Cheaper and better than the Nauru route but still a lot of other places you can get to a lot easier.

Those coming from the northern hem will be happy with the decision though. Should be pretty quite over there.

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etarip Thursday, 15 Sep 2022 at 8:43pm

From memory I went Syd-Cairns-Guam then the island hop thru Chuuck, somewhere else and then Pohnpei…

Epic trip. Wouldn’t think about doing it again.
Might if there was a direct flight.

And continental were real dicks about only allowing 2x boards max per person. Which kinda sucks when you snap one.