Streaky Bay District Council Minutes August 2013 Indicates Jeff Schmucker has spoken to council about a proposed ASP Big Wave Comp. Here's the link:
At this stage it is just a proposal. It would be an annual event and part of an ASP sanctioned Big Wave Tour. There will be a stakeholder meeting to be held later in the month.
You seemingly fail to realise that when something as unique & fragile & fine as the West Coast is lost, it is lost forever. This is what the community is clearly trying to tell you.
Australia has a long and chequered history of losing its best attributes. This has included numerous amazing and unique environments and ecosystems.
The usual cause has been pioneers or exploiters. The pioneers often had no idea what they were doing through sheer ignorance and were driven by a need to survive. The exploiters are far less innocent being out for a quick buck or boost to their ego.
Just because this has happened before doesn't justify it happening again. And things aren't a foregone conclusion as you seem to intimate.
So here's some advice. Listen to those in the community that are passionate about saving the coast from exploitation. These people have a broader view and are not interested in self-gain. These people understand that you can enjoy something without exploiting it.
Too right aquaman. This coast needs more superheroes like you!
@wogland,dont you understand that by holding a comp at just ..one spot.. it is going to spark interest in the whole coastline once they realize what is out here,you seem to think that they will come for a few days and go never to be seen again....what about the footage that will be seen globally don't you reckon that might attract a bit of attention.I think everyone needs to have a little think and sign the petition!!!
Just remember to sign it anonymously or mr smucker will contact you and abuse you
@ wcgland - To be absolutely clear. I signed the petition because, like the KI event, the planned location is not suitable for an ASP competition. There are many big waves in Oz and there is no justification worthy of placing added pressure on an easily damaged, undeveloped coastline. I don't see why the ASP/BWWT should spend vast amounts of resources hosting an event at Streaky when other communities and environments would be much more conducive to their objectives. The wave is worthy to be sure but there are heaps of big wave locations in Oz.
In the case of KI, others and I were shut-out of the planning process so were forced to make an influence by creating kangarooislandprosurf.com and pressure via political networking. We did this to ensure that the proponents didn't cause lasting environmental damage with their event. The process for me was very confronting, draining, disheartening and angry.
A great life experience though, in terms of living the age old 'good fight' for conservation and I learnt through practical experience. The experience taught me that it is much more effective to create positive change if you're part of the process, rather than throwing stones from the outside, so to speak. Which is why I approached Jeff and the BWWT diplomatically instead of the heated antagonism I displayed towards Surfing SA two and a half years ago.
If the BWWT are silly enough to steamroll through this plan through then I want to be a part of it to ensure lasting environmental damage does not occur. This does not mean I "would be cool with it" it means that I see the proposal as a threat to environmental values and I want to be as effective as possible at minimizing that threat. As the petition reaches 300 signatures in under 48 hrs I would be surprised if the ASP/BWWT will cop the negative press surely to come.
I would like to hear from the horses mouth the justification of considering Streaky over say Cow Reef or Hammerheads.
The big questions is...Cost vs Benefit?
What will be the major cost, and I'm not talking financial here. The environment is what will pay in the long run, no matter what spin is put on a BWWT event (by the ASP or Jeff/other vested individuals) having a small foot print of one location. Will people who come all the way to Streaky for one event just visit the one event location or will they make their trip worth while by spreading their wings so to speak and venturing up and down the fragile coastline. Not all visitors will have the same attitude of coastal love and care to protect and manage as they go.
The +ve financial cost is really of no concern as the players will make their initial investment back at least twice over, if the players didn't think they could get that return on investment the question of a BWWT event would not even be on the table for Streaky.
The -ve financial cost will be that the environmental groups that will be picking up the pieces, with rehab and protection costs from the long term effects of BWWT exposure. And local business and residents with increased council rates to cover rehab costings.
Who will benefit, the corporate entities and vested individuals is who. The local business' will see a short term boost of higher gain, with a longer term smaller gain as the coast will be opened up to international markets, mainly surfing but the general tourist market will gain a share from this exposure too. However, it's the investors who will be rubbing their hands all the way to the bank, with no real care factored in, unless of course a caveat is put in place if the BWWT does go ahead to have a percentage of profit from all vested interests to flow back into coastal protection measures.
wcgland says "Where do people get the idea that if comp is held in one location..and this is one location...that the entire westcoast is overrun..every single day of the year?"
Let me give an example of what can happen when just one location has exposure and the flow on effect for the greater areas surrounding said exposure.
25yrs ago a fishing comp was held at Fowlers, the organisers (from Adelaide) wanted it to be an annual event, but due to the immediate negative flow on events that followed the Adelaide fishing club dropped plans for further events due to some heavy pressure from the far west coast locals, namely farmers of the region.
The competitors of this event came from far and wide, and as they came and went they did some rather intensive coastal exploration. In that exploration they came across some of the far west coast's real gems, beaches and bays that were previously off the radar. One of these locations in particular is close to me as that is where the family shack is located. What these fishos did was discover what was probably the most abundant stocks of Razor Fish on the coast, well it didn't stay that way for long, within 12 months all the Razor Fish were gone, along with the once healthy stocks of Peri-Winkles and Oysters on the fringing reef. Still to this day the Razor Fish population has not recovered. The coastal destruction and trash left behind was also of serious concern.
Lets face it, humans are the "Future Eaters" to quote Tim Flannery. Most Visitors to the west coast in the end game don't give two fucks about the legacy they leave behind, they will come to see, surf and conquer with out a second thought, and if there is money to made, well we all know how the capitalist model works.
On a side note, I spent a few years living in Denmark, WA. I was there for the opening up of The Right at Lights, not that I surfed it but I did sit in the channel on plenty of occasions acting as support crew. What we saw was a steady increase in crew from exposure, some good but unfortunately some negative, a 50/50 split is my take. The one saving grace is that most visitors who surf the place only do it once, not out of fear but because it's pretty much a non-event kind of wave when travelling and logistics come into play, the cost vs benefit if just not there. Streaky and the greater west coast on the other hand is the the total opposite, the cost vs benefit for the travelling surfer is more than worth the effort in making the long journey. And that journey will become ever more popular with exposure from a BWWT event.
Concerning the petition, I signed, but I have to say the text in the petition needs work, both on a content and context. I don't know if the petition site limits characters used but there needs to better explanations and justifications for the stance taken against a BWWT event. The current wording is cool for those already in the know, but for those that have never been west, it needs clarification. I see plenty of international support for the petition, that is why I make the above comment.
To the ASP/BWWT and Jeff, be careful what you wish for...Have a vision and a plan, if you get things that you desire, there may be unforeseen and unpleasant consequences. This is no threat, it's about the future well being of the west coast environment and it's inhabitants when you are long gone from this earth. The world is not your personal play ground.
"I'd rather be poor and produce nothing than be an arsehole and conquer the world." Alby Falzon. Captures this subject quite nicely I reckon.
It is quite obvious that the minority of the primary resource users being only a few are very keen for the contest to go ahead.
The majority being 95 percent of the west coast surfing community does not want the contest to go ahead.
In reading through this forum clearly one individual believes that the coast belongs to him.
In reality the west coast surfing community are friendly and welcoming to any travelers who show respect in the water despite the picture the surfing media has painted.
More people will head to the west coast in the future and there needs to be groups that can manage the issues that will arise along the coast in the future.
The west coast has its own brand of tourism that being a pristine coast that is free from commercialization and a great destination for the adventurous.
It would be a very difficult task to change the opinion of the majority !!!
Quite interesting how people are hiding behind the 'protect the environment' banner. When all they really want is for 'their' surf spots not to become overcrowded..or even crowded!
Exposure is just an excuse to say fuck off ..these are my waves..put that camera away cunt! If any of you are serious about protecting the environment..you woulda started a group up long ago to care for our carparks, tracks, sand dunes, birds etc..not just pro's are rocking up now you need some sort of J-bay Union. As soon as someone says contest crew assume nightmare..and we all know assume makes..If you have a serious issue get to the meeting put your name up infront of people..not on some internet make believe and be counted!
Up to 334 on the petition. Keep it cranking.
@wopland..there hasn't been any reason to start up groups to look after our coast because locals tend to look after their own backyards, until recent events have exposed our coastline and disrespectful visitors who shit everywhere and,leave rubbish behind seem to be turning up all over the place ,I could name some classic examples of this but that would be stupid.Think of the future generations who might want to enjoy what we have for so many years
Wow - I've never joined in on an internet forum, having been scarred by the lack of respect shown to Maurice Cole on the FIGJAM forum on this very website. The behaviour on that particular thread was an embarrassment to the species.
I've been watching this thread with interest, abstaining from putting my voice forward, even after being sent delusional, inflammatory text messages from the proposed contest director himself. However, when said contest director starts questioning people's commitment to the environment, I couldn't take it anymore
I've been working in marine and coastal conservation on the west coast for years. Not an easy task at times, but when you care about the coastline, the ocean and of course the waves it's a no-brainer - plus it beats digging holes.
Yes Jeff, many people are already doing things to try and preserve the coastline and the marine ecosystems. In fact pretty much every surfer I know cares deeply about the coast and does things in their own way to preserve it (highlighted by the response shown in the petition). That's the KEY word here...preserve! I can't think of anyone on Eyre peninsula, or who visits Eyre Peninsula to get their desert fix, who would want to see the coastline whored out for the vested interests of a tiny minority. People want to preserve our way of life on the west coast. Though that means cold water, unaffordable diesel, white sharks and the harshness of the desert, it also means, for those of us who are willing to put up with this year after year, relatively uncrowded waves, as well as an uncrowded, healthy coastline and ocean. Why wouldn't we fight to preserve this?
Aquaman was spot on when he spoke of the history of natural resource depletion, and of the categories of pioneers and exploiters. Let's say waves are natural resources...which they are. Do you think pioneers like Jim Banks at Desert Point, the Boyum brothers at Grajagan or Jeff Clark at Mavericks could have possibly imagined what their discoveries would look like now when they were surfing those waves pretty much to themselves? Do you think maybe they would have done things a little differently if they could have foreseen the chaos at those breaks now? I'm pretty sure they would.
There is an opportunity now for any surfer who has sat at Uluwatu or G-Land and wondered what it would have been like before the crowds descended, to make their voice heard, and try to put a stop to this competition. No one has anything against visiting surfers who do the right thing, but history has shown us time and time again that if you expose a place, the hordes will come. This is accelerated in the new millennia with web clips, live streaming etc. Jim Banks couldn't have foreseen helicopters and speedboats arriving at Desert Point, nor can we se what the future will bring, but we already know there are multitudes of surfers who are willing to chase a purple blob on an internet wave model across the globe.
Our coastline is WAY too fragile to deal with big influxes of people...shit; it is all under enough pressure as it is. I have never seen or heard so many surfers on this coast united by a cause like this, and no doubt it resonates with any surfer across the globe who would rather catch waves than post photographs of them on the internet. So there will be a fight over this, and it will be fought on many different levels for as long as it takes, by those of us who give a shit about this coast, and want to protect it for a little while longer.
Funny..driving around our beautiful coast you would swear there are tracks going left right and centre..many of them started by surfers looking to see whats over the next cliff or over the next dune..me thinks this isn't even about the coastline..this is about crowds..crowded spots crowded waves..and the fear that they bring..drive to Yaneers..how many different tracks go in different directions to get there? VB's the same..Why hasn't something been done ages ago? Me thinks the BWWT is the least of the problems..When the new movie comes out..probably a screeninig in Streaky..alot more people are gonna see that then a Big Wave Comp..nearly every surfmag has bought out a dvd with the island or monnys on it..freakn gimme a break..
JEFFIE; Well Hyde looks like we gunnu have more targets to aim at in the surf
HYDE: Awesome I need another fix
Crowds equals coast degregation....its all the fucking same doesn't matter which way you say it..as for targets in the surf they sound like threats to me...bring it on fuckers
@wcgland "driving around our beautiful coast you would swear there are tracks going left right and centre"
I think you'll find that most tracks were started by fishermen. I don't know how long you've been around the joint, but knowing what I know from childhood and onward, it wasn't the surfers bashing new tracks. The surfers were the guys using existing tracks, not wanting to fuck an already delicate coastline, as the surf crew came after the fishing culture.
If most surf crew had their way, they'd have one track in, one track out. Kinda off track now, pardon the pun, but it's all about the environment, the surf crowd takes a distant second in this debate...have you spent any time down Margs coast lately, that's what exposure does, it fucks the coast because it brings in the clowns, and I'm not talking about the crowded surf. The last 10yrs has seen coastal exclusion and regulation tighter than a fishe's arse because of cowboy's in their chariots, churning through the coastal range, leaving their rubbish and shit (literally) as they go.
It would seem the sociopaths are trying to dictate the debate.
Trickykid, I like you are not one to comment on forums but your post did resonates with me. I am not from the West coast but I am a surfer from a small rural community who has have witnessed first hand the negative impacts over exposing a surfing environment can cause.
Your comments were spot on
oh jeffie what have you done.
As is usual round these parts, it's One Man vs The World. NOBODY wants to see a comp on this coast. It's just some sauce for one man and his ego-pie and its a real shame because the man in question could be a legend of the coast.
Forget about it Jeff. Stop blowing against the wind for once. You'll die a lonely old man - unless you count amongst your "friends" multi-national companies and photo-hungry pros who'll roll on in with the same attitude they have everywhere else and change the face of this beloved coast forever, before they split back out again and never talk to you again because they got what they want from you. Leave it be, and let the majority decide what is best for the coast. Easy, really.
All this talk about uncrowded smoking waves is making me want to pack the ute again for another trip over west, cheers fellas!
Jeff what the hell are you doing?? Leave the place as it is, can't you see what you have got is extremely rare and precious? Do you really want to ruin that? Surely your not that arrogant and need your ego stroked that much... Thank fuck you don't live here, and our waves are shithouse
can anyone from streaky bay give a figure, how many local people not just surfers that want this bwwt comp to happen, would there be 10 persons for it...? 20 - 50 ?
uplift whats the talk on the southern end of eyre peninsulas re this comp , and what are your thoughts ?
Has surfing lost it's soul ?
And is it possible that in a grab for fame the minority are prepared to sell the coast's soul to the corporate world ?
A lot's at stake some want to sell it out for money and fame and those company's mouth's are drooling at the possible monetary gain using a pristine backdrop to peddle their merchandise.
It's time to step up and say no !
Sheep are damaging the west coast not surfers
Well bugger me , WCjeffGland running a BWWT event.
Must be stopped, surely the fact this retard tows thru paddle surfers excludes him from a paddle contest.
Will sign the petition, everyone I know will sign it.
Disgrace it's even at this stage
I think jaws might have spent too much time in the back paddock with his sheep judging by that comment...
at least sheep don't leave rubbish everywhere and shit paper thru the bushes covered in smears
Yeah true that they just eat the whole bush
Getting back to the contest ,I think everyone should sign the petition..(.go port power)
Yeah that's the call Gonadman, sign the petition. We stopped the comp up here at tombies with 3 thousand signatures.
ASP are a business and corporations cannot afford to run over any majority group.
With MeJeff in charge the whole show is a talked up hoax, bet he's offered up a kidney to get it off the ground.
Perhaps it's time for Jeffy to stop threatening and try listening to his fellow peers. Once again, bet those ears are painted on.
Freo for premiers, over Port Adelaide sorry Gonadstarman
I live on the west coast and have seen first hand the impact of corporate exposure on the super fragile coastline and surf breaks as mentioned earlier in the thread local surfers hold this coast close to their heart and work hard to look after it,
someone posted earlier asking if anyone was in favour for the asp/bwwt coming to the west coast and i can tell you not one person i have spoken to in the surfing community wants it here
everyone from port lincoln to penong is opposing this proposal!
sorry boys its no use having a go at the contest motivator he has a narrow picture of his backyard if you want your say just vote yes or no
And I quote;
"It is generally accepted by conservationists that the coastline between Elliston and Fowlers Bay is one of the last remaining coastal wilderness areas in Australia. The Friends of Sceale Bay, which includes local and interstate surfers, has succeeded in having several Coastal Reserves proclaimed along the coastline between Streaky Bay and Baird Bay to safeguard the cliff tops from urban development, and protect endangered bird species including the Osprey and White Bellied Sea Eagle. They also have the support of the local indigenous people who are actively involved in re-vegetation projects which are supported Government funding grants. One of their main opponents is Mr. Jeff Schmucker who is fighting any moves to restrict his use of jet-ski tow in surfing and the promotion of big name surf contests. This conflict has a long and bitter history and Mr. Schmucker seems to have the support of the Streaky Bay Council which wants to develop the coastline with Queensland style resorts which have been rejected by State Government planning authorities. As we know it is not surfers riding big waves that cause damage. It is all the ancillary equipment, quad bikes, 4WDs, board-walks, etc that can have a major impact on fragile coastal systems. The ASP should be aware that the Far West Coast is one of the few remaining locations where surfers and fishers can still enjoy an authentic wilderness experience with minimal impact on the environment, and there is more to be gained by keeping it how it is, and supporting local conservation initiatives."
Encapsulating statement from the petition.
Just how much damage did the noodles comp do?..fuck all..where were the whingers?..don't you think this will be run in the same fashion.?
@westie if you think those tracks were made purely by fishers your a goose! I've seen hundreds of cars with boars drive all over the cliffs at venus..on the beach dunes at sceales..Alwill be revealed at the meeting..my bet is it will be managed from the boats like the noodles comp and the only traffic will be the onlookers from the cliff!!
@ pussyrioters..keep your hands off your own daughter..fuckwit
Its not the damage from the one comp that's the problem ,its the exposure and the people that come to see what they have seen on television that is the problem.Ive seen more pros and people flying in from all over the country since the noodles comp...For fucks sake work it out man!!!!
I've edited part of your comment at 8:48PM. Crossed the line there mate.
Interesting thread here, considered by the powers to be the noodles contest was a complete failure along with the KI event.
The promoter of the noodle contest is the one who wrote the report on it.
It sounds great but in reality quite the opposite.
The surfers of the west coast were not consulted prior to the noodle contest only a few tow surfers who opposed the event and wanted nothing to do it.
Several local surfers approached council prior tho the contest and had restrictions placed on them for the duration of the contest not being allowed anywhere near the contest area.
Surfers in W.A stopped Rip Curl proceeding with a contest up the N.W.
Surfers are the users of that resource are the people that need to be consulted first and foremost as was proven when a boycott of purchasing Rip Curl product occurred.
The west coast doesn't need ASP to help create tourism.
Some see the short term gain not the long term impact and loss.
It already has it's own brand a pristine coast free from corporate enterprise that many travelers have experienced from all around the world.
The west coast is unique and rare, there is nothing that can be offered to make it better it already is.
Keep it that way.
Capt. Pugwash, you are known around here as jiffy the schmuck, or the schmuckwit. Stop trying to call yourself smux. Funny how you have now stopped trying to deny your new login is you. How pathetic are you to sign up under a different name trying to pretend there are others out there supporting your view. Silly little wombat. How many paddlers were you towing through on jap's vid on surfline? How close did you come to the surfers while driving your ski with one hand while filming and focusing on josiah? Me thinks jiffy the schmuck might have finally run out of noodles for dinner and needs to line up some new food deals with this new comp!
C'mon the personal attacks are getting a bit much. I've already had to delete some comments this morning. Clearly we all know the people involved but from here on in commenters are gonna have to stick to the issues or the thread will get closed down.
All will be revealed at the meeting
As I am unable to make it to this public meeting, and I would dare say many others who would like to voice their opinion on the matter are unable to attend, I would suggest that the meeting be broadcast live over the internet.
There is a YouTube facility for broadcasting public meetings live, many groups/committees already do this for a variety of reasons, the main being so all vested interests can have a voice and/or vote and for transparent due process.
Easy to setup, go through the YT prompts for live conferencing, then copy/paste the URL on public forums such as Swellnet and ensure groups like The Friends of Sceale Bay also gain access. When the meeting is live on the 20th, people can participate either live via webcam or comment (instant message). Documentation can also be submitted live via an appropriate email address set up for the purpose of said meeting.
If the ASP, BWWT, Streaky Council and other event organisers truly value due process and input from all concerned, then there should be no opposition to holding this public meeting in such a way.
I put it to members of The Friends of Sceale Bay to approach the organisers of said meeting to get the ball rolling for a live to air meeting.
We are going to defeat this Jeff. I can also see a few good things coming from these events. You have helped galvanise the coast like i have not seen before. You have made a lot of us more environmentally conscious. We realise as a surfing community that we don't have to sit back and whinge about something we don't like and hope someone else stops it, we can be proactive and stop it together. The process we have gone through of forming an association, signing petitions, networking with other surf/community/environmental groups will be an integral learning process for all of us. This will put us in a better position to protect our fragile coastline for the generations of little west coast and visiting groms of the future.
So for this opportunity you have given us I guess I have to say thank you Jeff. Sorry for calling you a stupid little wombat I will now refer to you as a cute little wombat.
I know that god broke the mould when he made you ( actually he salvaged a few pieces and pumped out Wayne's World) but if another one like you pops up and tries to ruin the coast in the future we will be ready!
^^ Kinda works like getting a once disjointed work crew to come together, throw in an antagonistic supervisor that everyone comes to dislike...gives em some common ground and the workers form a natural alliance. Before long group morale/productivity increases and positive results follow.
The main thing is to stand against the BWWT proposal with respect and counter with well thought out, factual arguments that can be quantified, if not, the big players will win the debate by making those opposed look uneducated, reactionary and foolish.
stunet why arent u editing wcglands comment about the daughter shit ?
I have to strongly disagree with one of your comments Westcoastsurfer. To imply that the wombat in question is in any way "cute" is seriously misguided.
But seriously Jeff, give it up.
No west coast test cricketer ever made it by bringing international cricket to the Mt Hope Oval. If your son wants to be a big gun (and all the best to him if he does), send him off into the world so he can mix it with the best. Don't bring the world here. It's pretty simple logic, and hard to argue with. What we got is special, and supremely fragile, and it is the property of all who choose to live here - not one man with an overinflated ego looking for some more hot air.
Have fun swimming against the tide Jeff. You won't win. And if you do, congratulations...for you will be the biggest loser this coast has ever seen. Nice legacy.
I heard a rumour that if a certain guy makes another 30 not out at this years mt hope cricket match his average will be 100 at that oval and wishes to then be referred too as "the don". Can you verify this laotsu?
I can't, no.
But I do know that even the guys averaging close too 100 ain't inviting Channel 9 and Richie Benaud over to butter their own ego by showing them some of our better ovals. No, those guys have self-respect, they are humble, they have the respect of others, and if they do want to make it big and get sponsorship from Gray Nicholls, they are planning a move to Lords so they can prove themselves in a way that doesn't fuck over the 99.9% of the local population that doesn't wanna see an international match on their oval.
Westcoastsurfer for mayor!
I apologize for continuing to discuss this but I hope to do this in a non-inflammatory way. I do see the need for an answer from the BWWT why they chose to liaise with one individual instead of the associations that represent the surfing community concerned. The animosity this guy has created through his actions is palpable with the comments on this thread and it seems strange to me that the BWWT/ASP are choosing to spend money on plane flights from America to Streaky, only to be told "NO!" by the incorporated bodies that speak for the majority of coastal users.
I'm all to familiar with the whitewash tactics, selective hearing and dismissal of proactive yet unwanted advice from concerned stakeholders used by corporations. It's a sad reality that the Streaky Bay Council, the ASP/BWWT and the Department of Environment and Natural Resources have the option of dismissing any fact based argument put forward against the event. They may choose to do this and I want to warn anyone who doesn't want this competition to go ahead that the psychological impact of seeing this happen may impact your life. Do not have too much hope that this will go away and we can get back to mitigating the coastal traffic (both local and tourist) already impacting many locations.
As has been said on another thread, the coast is sparsely populated and managing some of the uninhabited beaches is either non existent or inadequate from lack of funding. The free-for-all attitude is rampant with travelers who find themselves at empty locations with no signs, fences or designated tracks. This is one of the fundamental reasons this coast is not suitable for surfing promotion. I can think of a dozen beaches where there is no infrastructure for beach access, no bins and no tailored management plan.
I other news, the petition is nearing 400 signatures. With an average of 100 signatures a day, i'm very impressed and relieved to see the support of the community.
zeph my man ,great work.
the against votes will pass one thousand. wayne 'moleman 'murphy wrote a nice piece in the surfers path back in 2007 on the change in irish surfers attitude, take it easy share the waves , worth a read.
wayne you being an ex penong dweller and are no doubt following this ..what do you think ?
JEFFIE: Hey Hydey do you think we should come out of retirement dude
HYDE: Our puppets have been in the closet for way to long
JEFFIE: Now no bad ideas there Hyde you know that with you whispering ideas into my ear I just cant help myself
HYDE: I know you only to well Jiffy
JEFFIE: Its all your fault Hyde you told me to behave the way I did and now the surfing world really know the real us.
HYDE: Im just a figment of your imagination , but seriously you should have listened to the white monkey from the very beginning.