Do you like or hate Donald Trump, and why?

dimitrios10's picture
dimitrios10 started the topic in Tuesday, 29 May 2018 at 5:10pm

I am curious if you guys like DonaldTrump, or do you hate him?

Optimist's picture
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Optimist Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 6:03pm

Factotum
I liked you Little Boy and the Old man poem...
This is my personal all time favorite

Twas battered and scarred, and the auctioneer
Thought it scarcely worth his while
To waste much time on the old violin,
But held it up with a smile:
“What am I bidden, good folks,” he cried,
“Who’ll start the bidding for me?”
“A dollar, a dollar”; then, “Two!” “Only two?
Two dollars, and who’ll make it three?
Three dollars, once; three dollars, twice;
Going for three—” But no,
From the room, far back, a gray-haired man
Came forward and picked up the bow;
Then, wiping the dust from the old violin,
And tightening the loose strings,
He played a melody pure and sweet
As a caroling angel sings.
The music ceased, and the auctioneer,
With a voice that was quiet and low,
Said, “What am I bid for the old violin?”
And he held it up with the bow.
“A thousand dollars, and who’ll make it two?
Two thousand! And who’ll make it three?
Three thousand, once, three thousand, twice,
And going, and gone!” said he.
The people cheered, but some of them cried,
“We do not quite understand
What changed its worth.” Swift came the reply:
“The touch of a master’s hand.”
And many a man with life out of tune,
And battered and scarred with sin,
Is auctioned cheap to the thoughtless crowd,
Much like the old violin.
A “mess of pottage,” a glass of wine,
A game—and he travels on.
He’s “going” once, and “going” twice,
He’s “going” and almost “gone.”
But the Master comes, and the foolish crowd
Never can quite understand
The worth of a soul and the change that’s wrought
By the touch of the Master’s hand.

Myra Brooks Welsh

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factotum Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 6:08pm

Ho ho! Always to type, Blow In. OF COURSE you gave us some little bit of your ego.

Yeeew! Paying out on Perth's surf and surfers. Man, you REALLY ARE the Blow In, ain't ya?

I think we should all pity the poor buggers in WA - Perth, North or South - putting up with noisy blow-ins like that! Well, noisy on the keyboard. All mouth and trousers.

And I thought you said you loved all things WA, didn't you? Bullshitting? Again??

Ah well...

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw.

...and YOU ARE THE STRAWMAN!

With the strawman 'arguments'!

Goo goo ga joob!

Blob's picture
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Blob Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 6:11pm

.....the snuggeries of babies.....

https://m.

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factotum Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 6:17pm

Again, thanks for the contribution there, Optimist. Some real positive vibes on display there.

Some more positive:

"Looking for Work" by Raymond Carver.

I’ve always wanted brook trout
for breakfast.

Suddenly, I find a new path
to the waterfall.

I begin to hurry.
Wake up,

my wife says,
you’re dreaming.

But when I try to rise,
the house tilts.

Who’s dreaming?
It’s noon, she says.

My new shoes wait by the door.
They are gleaming.

Some not as positive:

"This Be The Verse" by Philip Larkin

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 6:20pm

Left or Right @Blob or @anyone else?

sharkman's picture
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sharkman Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 6:22pm

Blob , just a simple question , are you a catholic?
I find your comment on what makes God happy , a bit of a stretch " God is happy with any form of Govt that follows his law"....thats a huge statement and open to way too much human interpretation. It looks to me that the factual life story of Jesus , that he had epmathy and compassion for all people , but all people are equal . In your world there is room to segregate people into races and economic stature.....?

Hm fairness , now there's another Godly word , open to interpretation , falattening out wealth is called taxes , where supposedly the rich pay more as a percentage of earnings , but we all know that it's a rigged system , and if you have good enough accountants and tax lawyers , you pay very little....is this fair?
What does your data tell you on multi nationals/rich elite and tax...does this make God happy?
Not having health care for all in the USA , Obama Care being wound back on the poor people , is this a Christian value?
Trying to close borders to refugees , is God happy that we have created borders based on wars won and lost , and that people less well off i,e, Climate/economic/political, should be dismissed as taking from the rich and giving to the poor?

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Blowin Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 6:31pm

You call it ego .

I’m putting a little bit of myself out there each time . Open to judgement, but I enjoy it and if anyone else does I’m stoked about that. I’m not a gun writer or poet but I had a play and it was fun.

What have you ever done , Facto ? I don’t ask to take the piss or start a fight . I really , really enjoy when people put it out there. Sure , i might criticise, comes with the territory. I’m open to it , why should you or Yeats be exempt ?

All that glitters is gold ...even Yeats shit , overwrought poem.

PS You know what I really liked ?

When Stu said that he couldn’t be arsed going into backstory with one of the vids recently posted on here. A single phrase of Brutal honesty is worth ten paragraphs of overwrought dribble. It was a high point in surf media .

Blob's picture
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Blob Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 6:36pm

Sharkman

Not Catholic

We're covering the same old ground....as in your queries have already been covered.
I'm all for looking after the poor

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Blob Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 6:38pm

Guysmiley

Neither

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blindboy Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 6:43pm

The Ballad of Joking Jesus - James Joyce

I’m the queerest young fellow that ever you heard
My mother’s a Jew, my father’s a bird.
With Joseph the Joiner I cannot agree
So here’s to disciples and Calvary.
If anyone things thinks that I amn’t divine
He’ll get no free drinks when I’m making the wine
But have to drink water and wish it were plain
That I make when the wine becomes water again.
Goodbye, now, goodbye! Write down all that I said
And tell Tom, Dick, and Harry I rose from the dead.
What’s bred in the bone cannot fail me to fly
And Olivet’s breezy… Goodbye, now, goodbye!

factotum's picture
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factotum Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 6:50pm

Blob! Dylan Thomas? You're a fan??

Or are you getting your Dylan Thomas' mixed up?

(going by your cryptic "snuggeries of babies" comment)

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sharkman Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 7:02pm

yes Blob , it's all about you , and your need to satisfy your right wing views , by invoking the name of God and Jesus , but that's all , which is very Trumpian of you , so I do understand now where the real enemy is!

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 7:14pm

@ Guy

Left is reality

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 7:19pm

Agree with your post Blowin.

Id much rather people be honest and put themselves out there and share experiences and stories etc.

Rather than just post other peoples quotes or videos or lyrics or just being plain nasty towards others for no reason whatsoever every single post.

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Blob Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 7:29pm

Sharkman

Sorry if answering your questions offends you.

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factotum Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 7:43pm

"I really , really enjoy when people put it out there..."

"You know what I really liked ?"

See what connects those two thoughts, Blow In? The 'I'. With you, it's always about the 'I'.

Guess what? What 'you' like to see isn't necessarily what others like to see. Surprise! People are on here for all sorts of reasons. 'Your' reasons aren't sacrosanct. 'Your' modus operandi definitely isn't either.

Though I'm sure there are also some who share your deal. Surprise again! Indo, I'm looking at you!

People are on here for all sorts of reasons. Looking for information; looking to share information; bored; disconnected; looking for connection; looking for reaction; distraction; taking the piss...etc etc etc.

Maybe I'm a tad slow but I'm now realising that for some commenters - especially the regulars - the Swellnet forums are just like the old school late-night talk-back on radio. No more, no less. The subject is almost irrelevant. There's been no prior deep thought or musing or experience or particular idea or informational barrow to push out there, necessarily.

The banter and connection is the thing. It's the raison d'être!

All day, every day.

See, I thought that was what social media was good for...y'know, with friends and family. Then again, being anonymous on an anonymous site has its purposes too, I s'pose. Anonymity is the key.

Thing is though, there's people I know on here. And vice versa. There's also people I know of and vice versa. Which is cool in its way. Cuts out bullshitting as an option if you're that way inclined, for one. And you also aren't that compelled to constantly share the minutiae of your daily life. Again, I thought that's what the other social media stuff is for.

Anyways, I guess it is, what it is.

Realise who's who in the zoo and treat accordingly.

Right.................

"Sure , i might criticise, comes with the territory. I’m open to it , why should you or Yeats be exempt ?

All that glitters is gold ...even Yeats shit , overwrought poem."

Which poem were you talking about again? Yeats or Eliot??

And you being a 'shit' reader and all, you call shit like that (which you come out with regularly) valid criticism??

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factotum Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 7:48pm

One for The Blob:

"The force that through the green fuse drives the flower"

Dylan Thomas, 1914 - 1953

The force that through the green fuse drives the flower
Drives my green age; that blasts the roots of trees
Is my destroyer.
And I am dumb to tell the crooked rose
My youth is bent by the same wintry fever.

The force that drives the water through the rocks
Drives my red blood; that dries the mouthing streams
Turns mine to wax.
And I am dumb to mouth unto my veins
How at the mountain spring the same mouth sucks.

The hand that whirls the water in the pool
Stirs the quicksand; that ropes the blowing wind
Hauls my shroud sail.
And I am dumb to tell the hanging man
How of my clay is made the hangman’s lime.

The lips of time leech to the fountain head;
Love drips and gathers, but the fallen blood
Shall calm her sores.
And I am dumb to tell a weather’s wind
How time has ticked a heaven round the stars.

And I am dumb to tell the lover’s tomb
How at my sheet goes the same crooked worm.

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sharkman Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 8:07pm

Blob , I take no offence with what you have answered , it has actually been quite pleasant trying to work out how Trump/Right wing so called Christians think and justify their beliefs and actions.
Trying to understand the and communicate with each other ,is one of mans biggest challenges as the politics of division has brought mankind to a very perilous point in History.
So who or what is going unite mankind ?

I focus's picture
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I focus Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 8:34pm

Blob $1.5 trillion of stimulus......hhmmmm

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sharkman Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 9:16pm

hey Blob stay away from the Trump economics subject , $1.5trillion in tax breaks ( More debt/borrowing) infrastructure spend , and rising interest rates and $USD ....we will see how the stockmarket factors all of this in over the next few weeks!

sharkman's picture
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sharkman Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 9:16pm

hey Blob stay away from the Trump economics subject , $1.5trillion in tax breaks ( More debt/borrowing) infrastructure spend , and rising interest rates and $USD ....we will see how the stockmarket factors all of this in over the next few weeks!

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blindboy Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 9:24pm

The odds are against Trump. The probability is that US politics will lapse back into their usual desperate stupidity after a single term excursion into absurdity ...... and yet, and yet, the thought keeps nagging. If, when Hitler became Chancellor of Germany in 1933, someone had accurately predicted the future, that he would industrialise murder with the complicity of the good Christian citizens of that civilised nation, they would have been considered insane. But that is what happened and anyone who believes it could not happen again has no grasp of either the history of that catastrophe or of human nature.

Step by step existing standards were undermined until the unthinkable became thinkable. The first murders, of the disabled, were approved by a Professor of Theology and so the path to the Holocaust was opened. And at every stage, with the force of rhetoric, and the support of Germany's academic and religious elite, it was made to seem just and for the common good. It begins with division and demonisation, and Trump is well down that road. Then come concentration camps, like those Trump has set up for those he considers, rightly or wrongly, to be illegal immigrants.

The final stage is the perversion of the individual conscience. Trained to conformity, to believe rather than analyse, doing what they are told becomes the highest good. Their conscience tells them it would be wrong not to follow the new laws, not to keep the trains to the death camps running on time. Trump as yet has not managed to achieve the kind of unanimity necessary to do this and the odds are against him. But he has licensed the Neo-Nazis (good people on both sides at Charlottesville), he has aligned himself with the Hitler worshippers ........ and now Jews are massacred. Don't fuckin' dare suggest it can't happen ......

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Blowin Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 10:48pm

Nice work , Facto.

Your last post was a bit representative of your personality. Glad you’ve figured out the dynamics of the semi anonymous Swellnet system . It’s a work of art , the way that the Swellnet crew have let things evolve . The way things stand , you can dip your toe as deep into the personal revelation pond as you’d like - no pressure - or you can comment with equal gravity on any subject you care to weigh into without revealing the size of your underwear.

I’m just a fella in the line up . Chances are that we know each other or are 2 degrees separated at most . Chances are that I’m mates with your mates , or maybe even mates with their mates etc.

I don’t talk bullshit and I’m not the hollow man, what I say is what I believe at the time. Subject to change.

Did you not like my poem ? Is it cause you’re from Perth ? I found it very similar to the JJoyce poem that BB put up . Same canter and pace. Thanks for that , BB. It was a fun and enlivening ....umm , canter and pace.

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blindboy Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 10:13pm

Glad to hear you enjoyed it Blowin. Joyce had a great eye for bullshit and a bit of a way with words!

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sypkan Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 12:07am

Gotta be honest I haven't followed all of this convo. Youse lost me when you started arguing about poetry...probably because I use 'youse' and don't read good and stuff...well according to factobum anyway...and you guys are all so sophistimacated...

But I've gotra say, when factobum writes stuff like this...

"...Guess what? What 'you' like to see isn't necessarily what others like to see. Surprise! People are on here for all sorts of reasons. 'Your' reasons aren't sacrosanct. 'Your' modus operandi definitely isn't either."

You do realise this cuts both ways?

I hate to get all labelly and stuff...again, but you do realise that the left, or liberals, or whatever you call yourselves, are notorious for being hypersensitive to language and conflicting opinions. So much so, that the old guard of media created this bubble of mis-truth that is backfiring on you now. This bubble of what is deemed appropriate for public discussion, by the gate keepers of culture, which shut down any dissenting views.

Whilst I often don't agree with blob, blowin, or even indod, I really appreciate that they are willing, and gutsy enough, to put their opinions out there for public scutiny.

This is especially the case when their detractors aren't willing to put anything out there at all, even when directly questioned. I'm not just talking about factobum, there is, and has been, quite a cohort of old and new contributors on here, that have lots to say about others and othering, but nothing to contribute of the self.

Seriously, its worse than extracting teeth. Yet these same people are always more than happy to vehemently slam any person, group, or opinion that doesn't conform to a certain world view.

Whilst I'm on the record bagging post modernism, I'm actually a believer of sorts. I think the theory has a lot to offer. But it puzzles me beyond belief how leftys can be so influenced by a theory that tells us the world is full of interpretations rather than absolutes, yet they are totally unwilling to listen to, or accept other people's interpretations. And then they resort to what can only be described as bullying to enforce their own (bias) worldview over others. Hypocrisy much?

Roses are red
Violets are blue
You call it shit
I call it poo

keep battlin blob, blowin and others. I appreciate your input, even if no one else does. The world would be incredibly boring if we all subscribed to factobum's bland brown overall bridgade.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 11:06pm

Is it just me or do others cringe when anyone compares someone or something to hitler or concentration camps?

I think Godwins law means the the thread should now be closed anyway.

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Blowin Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 11:19pm

Fuck’s sake ...

Roses are red
Violets are blue
You call it shit
I call it poo

This is seriously as deep as anything posted on this entire thread. I’m getting it put on my gravestone.

Remember what Spike Milligan had inscribed on his gravestone ...” I told you I was sick.”

Now that’s funny.

sypkan's picture
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sypkan Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 8:10am

And, in the interests of dissenting views, it really bugs me how certain media people present this event...

"...But he has licensed the Neo-Nazis (good people on both sides at Charlottesville), he has aligned himself with the Hitler worshippers ........ and now Jews are massacred. Don't fuckin' dare suggest it can't happen ......"

Nothing personal blindboy, it's a pretty generic media line you're touting. But I've got to say there actually was "...good people on both sides at Charlottesville".

Yes there were some nazis in the mix, but there were also a heap of people at that rally that were there purely to demonstrate the tearing down of statues. Statues representing their history, be it good or bad history, depending on one's perspective.

I literally do not have a nationalist bone in my body. And I found john howard's cultivation of nationalism most distasteful. So much so, I still cringe now when I hear schools sing our national anthem, perhaps because through all my years of schooling we didn't sing it once, not ever, high school or primary, never even learnt the words (fuck I love the progressive public school system!....sometimes...)

I also cringe at certain anzac day events, really really cringe. I have the utmost respect for the anzacs and I like to show it, but when I see kids being essentially brainwashed by nationalism they are way too young to understand I find it most uncomfortable.

Yet, if there was a bunch of leftys tearing down historic statues - for god knows what reason it is tthat they have - I might just walk across and stand next to those bald headed nutty ones over there for a while

Just saying...

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blindboy Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 8:16am

.......never stand next to a Nazi sypkan. There are always other ways to express your views. Aaaa Blowin, late to the party again. Godwin's Law was framed by Mike Godwin who,last year tweeted, in reference to Trump and his enablers.

" By all means compare these shitheads to Nazis ......."

Thus repealing Godwin's Law for the duration of Trump's presidency.

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GuySmiley Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 8:56am

Hey Blob,

You should read this.

https://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/life-and-relationships/how-a-mormon-...

Its a story about a Mormon mother of six children who blames men for unwanted pregnancies and abortion. It explains how she was called to action partly from watching men commenting on unwanted pregnancies in community forums/blogs, much like what has occurred here.

I await your (or anyone else's) comments.

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sypkan Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 9:23am

That may well ne true blndboy, but it doesn't change the fact there were a heap of people at that rally who were purely protesting the removal of statues.

And, that a heap of people like me wouldn't give those neo nazi types the time of day if we weren't feeling there's been some serious overreach from the left in terms of PCness, no platforming and various other totalitarian tendencies.

The alt. right are a bunch of wankers, but I'm willing to listen to wankers if they have a point. Hence me being here...

I focus's picture
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I focus Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 9:32am

Sypkan those good people were standing with a mob chanting "Jews will never rule over us".

Good people........big call

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stunet Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 9:37am

Proceed with caution. Kneejerk reactions to PC will only have an equally deleterious effect by providing cover for those with genuinely dangerous views.

Let no-one say the increase in far right movements is a media construct, nor, even more absurdly, that it isn't really happening. Just cut that shit out because you're wrong.

I agree that globalisation needs to be kerbed, but anyone who thinks a reversion to nationalism wont unleash ugly tribalism doesn't understand human behaviour, nor do they know their history.

Mixed feelings on giving a platform to all viewpoints: free speech should be honoured, but do we need to revisit extreme thought? The thinking that past atrocities sprouted from.

If you enable it then you're part of it, no matter what you're justification is.

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Noel Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 9:38am

So Blindboy, I'm guessing that you are firmly in the camp that defines any position that isnt extreme Left as being 'Extreme Right Wing', as the mainstream media are quick to define these days. Nothing in between at all.... very binary apparently.

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blindboy Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 9:41am

The Charlottesville rally was organised by white supremacist groups. The signs they carried and the things they were chanting were explicitly and violently racist. Anyone whose concern was purely about the statue of Robert E Lee had every opportunity to disassociate themselves from the rally. No sypkan, there were no good people on the racist side. Stupid, easily influenced people perhaps but when you stand behind a racist banner amongst people chanting racist slogans you are not "good" anymore.

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blindboy Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 9:43am

Noel, try to avoid putting words in my mouth, I find it very irritating. My views are all over this forum. If you find anything you consider extreme please post it and I will discuss it with you.

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blindboy Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 9:43am

Noel, try to avoid putting words in my mouth, I find it very irritating. My views are all over this forum. If you find anything you consider extreme please post it and I will discuss it with you.

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sypkan Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 10:14am

Oh it's happening stunet. I'm not denying anything. But the question is why is it happening?

I would argue a lot of it is due to the left artificially inflating their position, presence, and support through a compliant media. Supported by business, governments and universities.

We are now in a rebalancing point, a somewhat natural rebalancing, and how the left deals with this reckoning point will make or break it. Unfortunately there are many other issues being bundled up with it complicating the field.

As I said, I find overt nationalsm most distasteful. However I reckon blowin makes some good points re. identity and belonging. It's not an either/or despite how the media portray it. All countrirs indulge in it to some extent, but it seems in western countries any minute display of natuonalism at all is portrayed as toxic to the whole.

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blindboy Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 10:18am

So global politics, having been dominated for decades by neoliberalism, which not so long ago would have been considered extreme right wing, now needs to be "re-balanced" further to the right. Playing see-saw with you must have been pretty boring sypkan.

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sypkan Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 10:19am

"...Mixed feelings on giving a platform to all viewpoints: free speech should be honoured, but do we need to revisit extreme thought? The thinking that past atrocities sprouted from."

I see your point, but I really think it's overstated. Just look at the follow-up rally on the anniversary. They barely mustered 50 hardnuts together. The moderates were nowhere to be seen.

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stunet Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 10:22am

What anniversary?

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sypkan Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 10:39am

Do I really need to reiterate who jumped on board with the third way bullshit?

Anyway, it's not just about neo-liberalism and globalisation. It's about the over the top social meddling that went with it to facilitate them.

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stunet Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 10:25am

"So global politics, having been dominated for decades by neoliberalism, which not so long ago would have been considered extreme right wing, now needs to be "re-balanced" further to the right."

I pointed this inconsistency out a while ago and got no reply.

Strange ideological alliance.

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sypkan Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 10:36am

The one year anniversary rally.

The nutty ones tried for a second run, but less than 50 crew rocked up to a thousand coppers.

Hardly infecting the masses.

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loungelizard Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 10:41am

maybe because its bullshit? global politics dominated by "neo-liberalism" for decades? really?

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stunet Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 10:45am

@sypkan,

Didn't pay much attention to it. Wasn't referring to that anyway, rather the increasing appearance of a particular worldview, be it at Charlottesville, here, Brazil, or Europe.

I'd say if you're not concerned by where it could lead then you're ODing on naivety pills.

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stunet Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 10:50am

"maybe because its bullshit? global politics dominated by "neo-liberalism" for decades? really?"

??

Mate, every Western country, save the Scandis, is neoliberal. Been that way since Reagan, Thatcher, and Hawke.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 10:50am

loungelizard, I think you will find that, while the term neoliberalism can be confusing, there is a general consensus that politics in the west moved strongly to the right under Thatcher and Reagan, and has continued in that direction, with brief exceptions ever since. To be clear about the policies, think of lower corporate tax, widespread tolerance of tax havens, reduction in welfare benefits and an emphasis on the freedom of the individual as opposed to the common good. You might agree or disagree with these policies but you would be arguing with history to claim that they have not been implemented.

sypkan's picture
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sypkan Thursday, 1 Nov 2018 at 12:14pm

I didn't say I'm not concerned about it. Just that it's presented as overblown.

I really think people are a bit smarter than you guys give them credit for. Especially in this free internet information age. Again though I really don't like how the left is dealing with this change in dynamics.

Brazil is a really interesting example. I'm pretty sure they haven't experienced neo liberalism like western countries ie. extensive privatisation of services, because in brazil these services probably never existed.

They're probably pissed with globalisation though, if they have people buying up their country like we do. And politicians hiding their corruption money with the globalised monetary system ie. Panama etc.

That's what really pisses me off about globalisation. Much more than any two bit migration programs.