Submitted by Shatner'sBassoon on Fri, 11/06/2015 - 19:48
AN ALL-ENCOMPASSING KALEIDOSCOPIC JOIN-THE-DOTS/ADULT COLOURING BOOK EXPERIMENTAL PROJECT IN NARCISSISTIC/ONANISTIC BIG PICTURE PARASITIC FORUM BLEEDING.
LIKE POLITICAL LIFE, PARTICIPATION IS WELCOME, ENCOURAGED EVEN, BUT NOT NECESSARY.
Right up the alley.
What about the worst club song? WA on lock? We're the Eagles...Freo way to go.
Haha! Classic stuff Facto. Yep spot on re both WA club songs. Absolute shockers.
There's always good and bad to be gleaned from the media - mainstream corporate (or those aspiring to be) - whoever they may be.
"One final word must be added on the forthcoming election. The Coalition Government has shown zero awareness of this economic context. It appears wedded to tight federal budgets and surpluses even as the private sector aims to do the same, running full bore against the basic accounting identities of GDP. Plus it wants to run mass immigration at out-of-control levels. It appears to have no interest in equity and wants to sustain and grow the very debt bubble that is the number one symptom of depressionary economics in the first place. In short, it has learned absolutely nothing from the last decade of economic strife globally and, as it turns pear-shaped here, the Coalition may end up being what the Great Depression described as a “liquidationist”, ensuring that as much of the adjustment as possible is forced internally.
Labor has a much better mix of policies to deliver an externally led adjustment. It is offering huge tax reforms that will re-distribute asset inflation tax rorts to lower income household via income tax cuts. This is a direct support to greater equity, productivity and aggregate demand while allowing the asset price adjustment and enabling a lower currency. It is more likely to let go of any federal surplus with other fiscal spending supports."
Then it goes shticks-ville.
"It’s major drawback is that it is a mass immigration extremist which will work against everything else that it is trying to achieve."
MASS immigration EXTREMIST.
Utter bollocks, but hey, it's their shtick.
Still waiting on any sort of reply to this, from Oct 9th 2018:
"Actually, I'll throw this out there. Immigration of all stripes stripped back. The gains as you see them from whatever perspective you espouse and/or share?
Who is pro Big Australia? What is pro Big Australia?
Serious question. But run with the first part if you wish. The gains as you see them."
Actually, check the discussion here. Not bad for Swellnet.
(well, let's not get too excited)
Those questions have been answered on here a few times and those discussions have already taken place at great length.
Er, no they haven't. Check the 'discussion' above for instance.
Or this one from Oct 19th:
Go on, re-read, I dare ya!
Yes it has. Keep looking.
And the ad hominem strategy with Macrobusiness doesn’t defeat viewpoint.
From 0ct 19th 2018:
"Ha ha! I see what you're doing, Blow In. You want ME to do your homework for you. Spoon-feed. Give you some depth beyond the headline stuff.
Funny thing is, I gave you that reading before.
But you don't read!
Limiting or outright halting immigration (you never did get back to me about what type/s) is not a panacea to our perceived ills (you never got back to me about what you think they are either).
Read something there (may bolster or even give you an argument!), get back to me, and we may tease out some wider ideas about impacts, mitigation, and important structural changes (many of which we can sheet back home to my favourite bête noire, John Winston Howard)."
[Funny, you did provide that book, well inadvertently... https://www.adelaide.edu.au/press/titles/wages-crisis/wages-crisis-ebook...
"A worthy read I daresay.
20 chapters. 5 parts. 328 pages.
Obviously a complex issue. Well, a lot more complex than a few cherry-picked pages from 2 chapters. But hey, that's Macro's business model/plan/shtick."]
"Actually, I was thinking that you might have an opinion. I already know my opinion and I know the opinions , lies , damn lies and statistics available throughout the media.
But at least you’ve given a slight reveal : Limiting or outright halting immigration is not a panacea to our perceived ills .
So you are for Big Australia and continued massively high immigration.
And you don’t think that slowing the rate of immigration will slow the congestion, the ( previously) spiraling house prices , the hospital wait times , the lack of social services and the wage declines ?
Panacea: a supposed solution or remedy for all difficulties or diseases!
Now read that again, youngster!
And no, I don’t think that slowing or halting (which is your position?) the rate of immigration (whatever type/types you haven't got back to me about!) is the PANACEA that will 'fix' congestion; is the main problem with "the (previously...where in WA years back?) spiraling" house prices; will sort out hospital wait times & lack of social services etc. I also see you didn't mention any impacts on the environment at all. There's some interesting paths to take there.
As for the "wage declines", as you put it, this is of particular interest to me. It's why I'm wary of say, Van Onselen peddling his economic shtick (the dismal science!) that doing 'something' with immigration will magically resolve any and all issues in this sphere. It's a distraction. It's why he's getting air-time with the usual right-on suspects.
It's something that demands wider discussion and deeper structural change."
As in that book!!!! From the 11th Feb 2019:
I. THE PROBLEM
1. Australia, we have a problem
Jim Stanford, Tess Hardy and Andrew Stewart
2. Charting wage stagnation in Australia
3. Global perspectives on wage stagnation
Stephen Kinsella and John Howe
4. What's causing the wages slowdown?
Tess Hardy and Andrew Stewart
II. WAGE SETTING MECHANISMS AND INSTITUTIONS
5. Minimum wages
6. Gender pay equity
Sara Charlesworth and Meg Smith
7. Collective bargaining power
8. Public sector austerity and its spill-over effects
9. Contracting out community services, marketisation and wages
Fiona Macdonald and Michael Pegg
10. Executive remuneration in listed companies and wage setting
III. BUSINESS STRUCTURES AND VULNERABLE WORKERS
11. Fractured word
12. Wage theft and young workers
13. Temporary migrant workers, underpayment and predatory business models
14. Is there a wages crisis facing skilled temporary migrants?
IV. STAKEHOLDER PERSPECTIVES ON CAUSES, CONSEQUENCES, AND SOLUTIONS
15. A business perspective
16. A union perspective on the wages crisis and how to solve it
17. A community perspective: The human and social costs of wage stagnation
18. Young Australians and the disrupted economy
Annette Cairnduff, Kelly Fawcett and Nina Roxburgh
19. An investor perspective
Craig Shepherd and Penny Heard
V. FINDING SOLUTIONS
20. Conclusion: Wages and inclusive growth
Andrew Stewart, Jim Stanford and Tess Hardy
Actually, in the mood for searching and reading?
And not far to go?
Check the back pages of this thread and read on!!!!
Some interesting stuff on there."
Huzzah!!!! Finally got there!!!!
Some really interesting comments below the line too.
Actually, peruse them and perhaps discussion will ensue and evolve.
(as an aside, and for those that don't realise, the authors - Peter Martin & James Ward - were at the time the president of the SA branch of Sustainable Population Australia and the National President of Sustainable Population Australia, respectively)
Don't fear, PM ProMo is here!
[From todays' National Press Club address]
"For the past five and a half years, our government has taken these responsibilities extremely seriously. Dealing with the world as it is – uncertain, often dangerous, uncompromising, and at its worst – simply evil.
Every day, we have been taking action to build a stronger and even more resilient Australia to deal with whatever comes our way.
That’s why, today, I’m releasing our forward plan to keep Australians safe and secure in the future. Our plan to keep Australians safe and secure.
The plan builds on our achievements and addresses the plans that we face. Plans must always be updated to show that. Regional tensions between the world’s powers. Heightened global instability. Headwinds that we face, as Josh Frydenberg knows as treasurer.
The economy as Mathias Cormann knows. Foreign interference. Radical terrorism. People smuggling. Natural disasters. Organised crime. Money laundering. Biosecurity hazards. Cyber security. The evil ice trade. Violence against women, as I’ve mentioned.
Online predators and scammers who seek to rip off older Australians – cyber bullying, elder abuse.
Our plan to keep Australians safe and secure, to address these threats, is straightforward.
Keep our economy strong to provide the surest foundation for our security.
Defend Australia with $200bn over the next decade. Continue to protect our borders with proven policies that work and not changing them.
Keeping Australians safe from terrorism by disrupting and denying those terrorists the [chance] to undertake attacks in Australia. To combat violence against women and counter the culture of disrespect towards women that can lead to that violence. Protect our children online and in the real world.
Going after sexual predators and countering bullying behaviour. Secure our region and our sovereignty by prioritising cooperation with our Indo-Pacific neighbours and family, as Marise Payne does on a daily basis.
To protect Australians from organised criminals by ensuring that we give police and security services the resources and technology and the powers they need.
To fight that menace of drugs, and especially ice, with coordinated law enforcement and anti-gangs initiatives. And to protect our communities in times of natural disaster by continuing to invest more in preparedness and capability, so we can respond quickly in helping Australians get back on our feet as we are doing, even as we speak right now with the disasters that face us."
And to be perfectly frank...
Geez Facto, I got to see some of that speech on tv today. Probably why I had trouble reading all of it.
If bubble o Bill is hard to digest, Scomoid is like a persistent hemorrhoid.
According to the gospel of Scomo it is ok to be scared. Actually you are entitled to live with fear.
Never let the facts get in the way of a 50 billion dollar headline. Shorty and the crew know that the vast majority of people affected are not 'battlers'. My guess is that they already vote Liberal and the it will have a minimum affect on the TPP outcome.
When youve got a weak hand you only have the fear card left to play.
Its not difficult to get a picture of how this election will play out, and it ain't pretty on one side of the coin. But thats ok, it should be an entertaining 3 months from the sidelines for some of us.
Will there be a return to the all options are on the table 'attack ads?'. I hope not. I prefer civility to anarchy, but if there's something I'm getting used to, its to expect the unexpected.
If you don’t like the point being raised, just yell “ Racist !”
Cannot mess with big money or real power as I am sure the statement has a degree of truth shows to some extent the reach of Jewish influence in US politics strangely not heavily applied to the statement "there are some fine people.........."
Despite ALP’s nascent indications of resurgent interest in the plight of the working class , they sadly still eliminate themselves from any serious consideration as worthy of a vote.
Israel is an apartheid state. It has violently oppressed the Palestinian people over many generations. Over that time it has not hesitated to condemn legitimate criticism as anti-semitism. The Israel lobby in the US has commonly resorted to the same tactics.
"If you don’t like the point being raised, just yell “ Racist !”'
I don't think that's the easy takeaway from that article. It's a lot more nuanced when you're dealing with the pro-Israeli government lobby. It's big, big bucks! Jeez, check the absolute bollocks Corbyn has and is still dealing with from them in the UK.
Funny, the 'anti-Israeli government = anti-semite' shtick didn't really work here in Oz. With the Dave Sharma nomination in the Wentworth by-election and PM ProMo's brain-fart about moving the Australian embassy to Jerusalem (following Trump's lead). I wonder why?
Maybe we're too used to bigger and badder dog-whistles? We can see the real stuff when we see and hear it. It ain't a 'get outta jail' card.
John Barnes' 'unconsciously racially biased' notion hitting a chord?
As for Leith's conflating extremist mish-mash...well, never go full Leith!!!!
The tactic of vested interests employing patsy labour to quell debate with inappropriate accusations of racism gets just as much of a run here as it does in the US .
The only decent take away from that John Barnes article was that people shouldn’t be presently pilloried for historic mistakes and that the modern resurgence of witch hunting needs to be knocked before it corrodes society any more than it currently does.
The “ unconsciously bias “ theory of reducing people to mindless slaves of their environment is as fanciful and unlikely as it sounds. Ever notice it’s only other people who suffer from it ? Apparently the author and his nodding audience are excempt from the theory due to their unique levels of intelligence.
Again with the ad hominem attacks on Macrobusiness. I guess it’s easier than admitting you’re wrong.
The situation with Israel unfortunately has also been used as a vehicle for genuine anti-Semitism, which is never in short supply here, the US, Britain and Europe and most particularly Russia and the ex-Soviet states. This is why the bar for anti-Semitism gets set quite low, even by those who abhor Israel's policies.
Facto - Well noted on the background of the authors behind the piece in The Conversation regarding how Australia functions most efficiently and effectively as a nation with a population of 15 million. Certainly lends credibility to their article.
Their years of expertise on the subject led them to the realisation that the issue of Australia’s overpopulation was so genuine , that they were forced into politics in order to alleviate the dangerous situation created by the inaction of the ALP/LNP duopoly . Sad day when the major parties collude to oppose the benefits of the majority population in order to accede to the demands of a vested few.
Easy solution: Vote Sustainable Australia
Place ALP/ LNP last on your ballot.
Yeah, the Barnes 'unconsciously racially biased' article did strike a chord, didn't it? I wonder why?
As for The Conversation article, didn't read the comments below the line, hey? Let alone the other articles in the series?
Of course not.
As for Leith & the boys, remember this? No. Of course not.
10th October 2018. This thread.
Interesting site, and business.
Relatively recent mover & shaker start-up by Leith van Onselen and others. Interesting battle over the journey for differentiation and market-share in the 'economics/property' web-site/blog space.
And he seems to have found his niche. All things immigration. Has got him media gigs now with the usual suspects, including the Sky After Dark roster. Bolt in particular.
Anyway, have a squiz.
"...we do not feel like they’re getting any richer, and we’re looking around for people to blame. Australians are indeed, on some economic measures, getting noticeably poorer. One explanation is that we haven’t quite worked off the hangover from the mining boom: as the economist Ross Garnaut predicted, the end of the boom has led to stagnant incomes and a restless electorate. In addition, as Greg Jericho has argued, unions that used to fight for wage increases have become weak.
However, other people have taken to blaming Australia’s high immigration rates for the slide. Leith van Onselen, for example, on the Bolt Report, noted that Victoria, which has seen the highest immigration rates in Australia, has seen the lowest per capita income increase in the country since the global financial crisis. Isn’t that evidence that immigrants are lowering our living standards?
The problem for Van Onselen is that he’s got his economics wrong, and he’s measuring the wrong thing. Changes in gross state product per capita – the indicator they’re using – can’t tell you anything about the impact of immigration on living standards.
It’s like comparing oranges in 2009 with a mix of apples and oranges in 2016.
Let’s call one group of people the “original” group – people who were already here in 2009 – and the other the “immigrant” group, who’ve moved here since then. Van Onselen compares the living standards of the “originals” in 2009 with the living standards of both originals and immigrants in 2016. This tells us nothing. What we want to measure is the change in the living standards of “originals” from 2009 to 2016 (and, if you like, the change for immigrants, but this would mean finding out what those were in their country of origin).
This is much harder to measure, but there is some evidence to suggest that if you did the analysis properly, it would change Van Onselen’s conclusions.
Data from the 2016 census shows that income for recently arrived immigrants in Melbourne is on average substantially lower than it is for Australian-born residents. This means that the recent arrivals will “drag down” the average, even if they’re better off than they were before moving to Australia, and even if they’ve had no impact on the living standards of those who were already living in Melbourne.
The academic literature supports the idea that immigration is not likely to make non-immigrants any poorer. Studies suggest that, on average, immigration has little to no impact on wages. On employment it’s much the same: the consensus of research is that, statistically, immigrants either create more jobs than they “take”, or that they have no impact on jobs at all."
The 'dismal science', hey?"
Why do you believe that reposting opinions increases their veracity ?
Why do you assume I haven’t read something because I don’t comment on it ?
Too tight about the dismal science. For every statistic you’ve got to say that mass immigration doesn’t reduce wages or standards of living, Ive got one that says they do.
Too bad you’ve yet to find a statistic which attempts to contravene the certainty that massive population increases are nothing except utterly destructive towards the environment.
And to be perfectly frank...again...
And don’t Australian’s get a vote on HOW they want their country to evolve ?
Completely aside from economics ?
Does it not matter if Australians don’t want to be forced into crush loading of every situation and place , masses of humanity at every scenic spot , every resource allocated in an ever diminishing parcel to an infinitely increasing number of people ?
Doesn’t our way of life rate a mention ?
"Why do you assume I haven’t read something because I don’t comment on it ?"
Because you do comment, frequently, without showing any evidence whatsoever that you have considered let alone read and digested anything that is offered, Blowin'.
Case in point (and the most recent example), The Conversation article above. The only one you've picked out of the series (kinda like the MB boys and their cherry-picking...but then again, they're running a business).
The series and article I offered back on the 9th October 2018.
"Labor detractors claim they're in thrall and at the constant beck and call of the 'unions'.
Yet these 'unions' are also against dodgy TWVs [temporary work visas], dodgy labour-hire, dodgy training providers, the death of TAFE, and corporatised universities?!
What gives (in the real world)?
Oh yeah, have a read. Some nuanced, complex, and informed opinion.
Blowin's response back then:
"As for your other links....whatever.
The capitals are bursting at the seams . I know cause I drove through both Sydney and Melbourne in the last week."
The town where I live is 'bursting at the seams' these days...in the water. Well, moreso than when I first 'emigrated' from interstate 23 years ago. Seems that way.
Bloody immigrants/blow ins.
Funny though. The infrastructure is better. More schools and hospitals too. And the house prices have gone down. They've been doing so for nigh on 10 years. They were crazy high before that. Bubble-like.
Hey, that's just my anecdotal take.
Despite poll after poll showing that Australians don’t want current levels of immigration, their wishes are to be completely ignored.
Why is this do you think ?
Tell your story walking.
China thread stuff again?
And as for corporate media polls?
Here's something from the 7th Feb 2019, directed at Sypkan.
"I'll try to make this brief. No, it will be brief 'cos I've got stuff to do.
All of the above in your comment Sypkan is perception. Yours and the article in question. The article itself is based on polling. Corporate media articles feed the perceptions, do some polling, then feed the public again. As you yourself intimate it's really mis-perceptions all-round.
Shoot the messenger?
As a wiser head once said, "don't hate the media, BECOME THE MEDIA"!
Independent media, social media, these threads!
Critical reading and critical thinking can deconstruct the perceived wisdoms and truths and 'common sense' and PR bollocks.
I watch Insiders on the ABC not for the content as information per se but to see how its constructed and presented. Like that article, they really can't see that they are a big part of the problem. A big, big part.
That's why Chomsky & Herman's Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media is still relevant and important. Do yaselves a favour if you haven't.
Go to the Trump thread. Me and Andy M kinda discussed this a bit more deeply.
Then again, don't ever get too 'deep' and didactic. People turn off. I know it's hard not to but 'softly, softly, catchee something-or-other'. Google is our friend! Leave breadcrumbs. People internalise when they discover things themselves. Or think they have. Insidious media and advertising 101. BECOME THE MEDIA indeed!!!!"
Whoops, have I let my cat out of the bag there at the end?!
What state are you in Facto?
curious about the dropping house prices.
Some figures (taken with the right dose of salt):
My town's median house price was $480,000 of the June quarter of 2008 (apparently).
The median sales price for houses in the last year was $405,000 (based on 197 home sales). Compared to the same period five years ago, the median house sales price for houses decreased 6.4% which equates to a compound annual growth rate of -1.3%.
This concurs with my own anecdotal experience, and a friend in the realo game.
wow. sounds heavenly.
Just bought a 3 bedroom place on NSW south coast. 150m to a prime reef, a little further to the beach breaks. Walking distance to shops and restaurants. $500,000. Cannot see another house from the back verandah, just a cricket field and Banksia scrub with a stretch of ocean behind it.
that also sounds heavenly BB.
when do you move down there?
We moved yesterday freeride, so we are still surrounded by boxes scratching our heads about where to put everything. Good fun.
"wow. sounds heavenly."
Depends when you bought and if you're selling, I s'pose. Like always.
Thing is , everyone KNOWS that tomorrow is going to be more crowded than today.
Everything and everywhere is going to be more crowded. Less pristine. Less private . Less fish , water , space and time alone. Who in Australia wants that ?
Blindboy , the only Big Australia booster I know , is himself running away from the very crowds he wants to inflict on everyone.....against their wishes.
Fuck that . I don’t want more people and even if there was a genuine economic benefit to more more, more people - which there’s not - there is no amount of money or economics that will ever replace what we’ve lost by signing up to the neo liberal infinite expansionist theory.
Nice one BB, that sounds epic.
What a contrast to the Northern Beaches.
Simple, Blowie. Put the LNP last. Fuck them off, and the last vestiges of the neo-liberal economic experiment (always on steroids with those clowns), for a generation or five.
And don't come the raw prawn with the false equivalence, moral or otherwise, malarkey.
(BTW Guillotines will be less crowded this week, I reckon)
What Facto avoided to say was that property prices in his town DOUBLED in the 6 years leading up to 2008.
Guess what led to the massive increase which placed many locals out of the market ?
So the huge spike in population led to unaffordable housing , but what did it do to the quality of life ? What do you reckon the average pre-boom local would be saying if asked whether they’d prefer the town as it was in 2000 or as it is now ?
I lived in a town near there for a little while and if you think it’s improved ....you’re either a real estate agent , a surf school operator or you’re off your head.
ALP/LNP same same.
You’ll still be looking at a doubling of the population in 20 years.
Blindboy should be made to live in an apartment building in Hurstville for the rest of his days. You want humans living like sardines.....you got it.