Australia - you're standing in it

sypkan wrote:

ok, i just saw they have indigenous players...

good on em, wave it high and proud

take a knee... still totally cringeworthy

Seems they have three indigenous players.

"The team boasts the talents of three Indigenous women at the highest level, including striker Kyah Simon, her cousin and defender Gema Simon and goalkeeper Lydia Williams."

https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2021/07/22/matildas-hold-aboriginal-...

I still agree with Pauline though. it's playing politics and divisive, they are there representing Australia and it should be the Australian flag they are holding up.

Sam Kerr too (front right).

Funny thing about the flag is that many see our official flag as divisive itself due to the union jack having pride of place - I can emphathise with Australians with no British heritage feeling otracised by that. I haven't made my mind up on that issue, but it would seem that if Pauline is so concerned by having a non-divisive, unifying flag she'd be aboard on the change-the-flag train, no? (Somehow I doubt that's the case...)

Not sure why they'd fly the aboriginal flag either...except for maybe its their country who they're representing. I'd prefer to fly that flag too. But its a tired old conversation that has been hammered on this thread. Gotta love a senator of the parliament of Australia having such a divisive take down of it. That's a person who's representing many others just like her, who feel the same. Scary

I'm all for changing the Australian flag but until they do, I'm gonna have to side with Pauline on this one. The flag we have, like it or not, is representative of all Australians and I think the Matilda's could have been a little more cognisant of that imo.

For the record, I reckon they just replace the union jack with the indigenous flag. I reckon it would look pretty good.

Fair enough Zen, but i think Aboriginal Australia has an argument to say their flag is for all Australians, based on Australia's history. Australia does belong to them as the original inhabitants in my opinion. There's nuances in everything but i feel that there's absolute truth in the fact it's their country, hence representation abroad is warranted and should be encouraged i reckon.

As far as changing the flag goes , I’m all for it and changing the union jack for aboriginal flag would be in my opinion the best outcome. Here’s a few designs . https://www.google.com.au/search?source=univ&tbm=isch&q=australian+flag+...

Kinda different but a similar thing is John John saying he is Hawaiian and wants to represent the Hawaiian people, not the US. He's not fullblooded Hawaiian but respects and embraces the Hawaiian culture. Hat's off to him and i think it shows people in those positions that have a voice can help make a difference in perception and understanding of these issues for people who have never really considered it before for whatever reason. Good education.

Agreed Supafreak, but i'd also b happy with the Aboriginal flag as is. It's pretty recognisable already worldwide.

Yes BD it’s definitely unique

I agree with you BD but in our short, post first fleet history, like it or not, millions of people have made Oz home, raised families and laid others to rest in her soil, they are Australian and know very little else except I'm descended from...

I really think the flag needs to be something everyone can get behind and be proud of, something that acknowledges our past and something that symbolises the future.

Ha ha! try getting people to agree on that one.

I'm with you there Zen. Not a straightforward issue!

Yeah sounds like pretty much on the same page. Either way, i'll be happy to see Aussies draped in either/both if it means we're scooping a bit of gold, especially if it's Queen Steph! Just found Hansons comments very harsh and unneccesary. But nothing new there.

The problem here is by holding up an Aboriginal flag with no Australian flag in sight, it's basically saying, we are replacing the Australian flag with an Aboriginal one, we are here representing Aboriginal people/culture instead of all Australians, when it's should be an Australian olympic team overseas representing Australia and all Australians.

Unless that was the message they wanted to send, then the smarter and more respectful thing to do would have been to hold up both the Australian flag and Aboriginal flag, that could have even been seen as being inclusive and one of unity not division..

Pauline calling it out is totally necessary because most don't have the balls to call these things out and she would been loving the opportunity, because there would be a large number of Australians saying or thinking, "I dont like Pauline or i rarely agree with her, but she has a point on this one"

Stronger views on flags rather than marginalised Australians, What's more offensive or is it better to hear nothing, say nothing, do nothing. Are we that precious as a society that we can't face the simple truth? Or expect our leaders to deliver a better future?

A country with many ethnicities but all forced to beat the aboriginal drum - the Olympics was never designed to be a stage for politics - and so I and many others automatically lose interest. Hats off to Pauline for calling it for what it is.

Don't think the girls are forcing anything just showing solidarity and support. It could well be after all just a celebration. Why does a certain part of Australia have to always knock down any reference or form of indigenous pride. What are they afraid of?

The more politics fails. The more it will be called out. Whatever the issue. Or do we just censor free speech to allocated times ,places,people and views?

I tend to think the result will be that people of all backgrounds will go back and discover their own indigenous past. To a tee, these were much kinder to the environment btw.

Someone dug up Arthur Tunstall and got a set of jumper leads.

I don’t think the aboriginal flag was about excluding anybody. It was about making aboriginal people feel included.

I like our flag, but perhaps its time for a new one with just the southern cross on it. We all live underneath that so it will tie everyone together and stop the divide. There are now three times more Asian Australians than aboriginal ones not counting everyone else like Greeks Italians etc etc. Habitations shift all over the earth and no one really owns anything. People move around, always have and always will. The idea is use your brains and available resources and aid and find a patch somewhere on earth to reside for our short physical lives. If you do the right thing by others and aren't greedy God will always steer you straight and give you a home. If you want to still hunt, fish and live quietly in the bush there are hundreds of places in Australia to do so where no one will bother you, just like there are cities to do the opposite, its all our choice. Its a great country we have here under the southern cross. Anything is possible.

Optimist wrote:

I like our flag, but perhaps its time for a new one with just the southern cross on it. We all live underneath that so it will tie everyone together and stop the divide. There are now three times more Asian Australians than aboriginal ones not counting everyone else like Greeks Italians etc etc. Habitations shift all over the earth and no one really owns anything. People move around, always have and always will. The idea is use your brains and available resources and aid and find a patch somewhere on earth to reside for our short physical lives. If you do the right thing by others and aren't greedy God will always steer you straight and give you a home. If you want to still hunt, fish and live quietly in the bush there are hundreds of places in Australia to do so where no one will bother you, just like there are cities to do the opposite, its all our choice. Its a great country we have here under the southern cross. Anything is possible.

Well said.

Optimist wrote:

just the southern cross on it

Im totally against a flag change, the only time it should even be considered is if we became a republic.

But if it ever happened 100% that's the most logical solution.

Re. the use of the Southern Cross. The documentary this article talks about is a very worthwhile watch for those who may not understand the modern day symbolism of the southern cross and what it means to alot of aboriginal people and probably for alot of refugees too. https://dailyreview.com.au/southern-cross-become-symbol-australian-racism/
I have posted a link to the actual doco in the past but can't remember where i watched it. But definitely worthy.
I personally would be honoured and stoked to live in a country where the aboriginal flag was our national flag. I would be honoured and stoked to see all Australians embrace aboriginal culture, both historic and modern culture. Sporting, arts, musical, and thats not even scratching the surface. There is so much to embrace about this beautiful culture and the people in it. I also understand people having different view on the matter based on beliefs and upbringing. Good to put the conversation out there. I stand by my comments, that Pauline Hansons comments were un neccesary...vile, disgusting and unwarranted.

ahh. Found it.
https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/watch/989794371595
You might have to make an account on SBS to watch it but it's free.

Thanks BD I enjoyed that . If Australia ever did become a republic I hope the crowd that changed the made in Australia symbol have nothing to do with flag design, the new made in Australia is an absolute shocker .

Someone’s offended. https://www.facebook.com/1619458935022657/posts/2576124646022743/?d=n

Haha. Classic NT shenanigans.

bluediamond wrote:

ahh. Found it.
https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/watch/989794371595
You might have to make an account on SBS to watch it but it's free.

I gave it a watch, some of it was good the old indigenous guys telling stories bits were the most interesting bits of it. (not included that white fella that wrote that book)

Some was pretty crap and out there though lot's of leftists hipster type people and views/tangents, the French guy was the worst, .

Thinking the southern cross is a racist symbol though because bogans have over used it for tattoos is pretty silly though.

I mean are "such as life" & Ned kelly tattoos also racist?

Nah just tacky, plenty of tattoos have now become terrible cliche tattoos that now people feel embarrassed about though and want removed.

Don't think conservative politics would accept the southern cross on an Australia flag its long been associated with rebellion and protest against authority, which of course is the very reason it should be front and centre.

I focus said ,
"Don't think conservative politics would accept the southern cross on an Australia flag"
Er, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there already a southern cross on the Australian flag?
And, I believe it is on the LNP logo.

It would look good re-designed like the actual stars positions in the sky.

Agree. The Southern Cross as we know it is a union flag currently, but was originally a flag flown by a group of independent miners who rebelled - and banded together to do so - and were murdered in the night. Made by a Canadian, eh. Gold was what they came to the fields for.

Southern cross flag as the stars in the sky, it would have different meaning. I reckon if we put an emu or kangaroo on it with Laser Eyes like the NZ proposal with the Kiwi that would highlight the stars, and show us as unmistakably Australian - and pretty tough and high tech.

It is clear that bluediamond is in love with all things aboriginal - good for him. Unfortunately that doesn't make it anything but nonsense to have a symbol of colonialism ie. a flag, in aboriginal colours. The women's soccer team displaying this unrepresentative flag was completely inappropriate, unnecessary and purposely divisive. Pauline is simply stating a fact. How it could be described as 'vile' is laughable.

Swellnet, the fact you allow the above poster a platform to speak cheapens your product immensely.

I'm not a big proponent for flag change. But well said Optimist. That'd be a good way to go.

I think the argument about keeping politics out of sport is a disingenuous one. Only to be trotted out if one is uncomfortable with or opposed to what's being expressed.

No one seems to have a problem with soldiers on the field of play on Anzac Day. Ninety thousand people in solemn silence at the MCG in commemoration, or even celebration, of industrial scale butchery. "No passing bells for these who die as cattle...”

Maybe because it's so long ago now - the horror and the division the Great War provoked in society is mostly forgotten. But I'd say it's still very political. My memory says that the time when the Anzac Day game between Collingwood and Essendon took its present form, was around the same time that John Howard was using the image of the Digger and 'noble sacrifice' as a means of promoting his idea of national identity and unity. Concurrently, he was trying to institute Thatcherite policies such as Work Choices, which would have rendered such an idea of a cohesive Australia impossible. So I'd argue that the Anzac Day game is inherently political.

And it’s easy to think about war 100 years removed. In the brilliant introduction to Patsy Adam Smith's 'Anzacs', using her personal experience, she recounts that many people just wanted to forget about the war and even looked upon the diggers with shame. The returned diggers were often treated appallingly, carrying the physical and mental scars for the rest of their lives.

I'm not at all opposed to Anzac Day, nor the game, nor doubt that Australian troops fought admirably during WW1 - just spend a day in and around Villers Bretoneux - and in subsequent conflicts, just that Anzac Day is the acceptable face of politics meeting sport. Maybe Anzac Day should focus more on the recent conflicts Australia's been involved in, and whether or not our returned service people are getting the support they need at the moment.

Most people would greatly admire Peter Norman today and be aghast at his treatment post his actions on the podium in 1968. But it's a long time ago - so the controversy has dissipated. But Norman's noble and brave show of solidarity with Smith and Carlos isn't much different to Adam Goodes taking a stand, the Matildas flying the Aboriginal flag, or those such as the Australian cricketers, Tyler Wright or the English soccer team taking a knee. Norman I imagine would be proud to see this, yet these actions provoke howls of outrage in certain quarters, from some of whom I suspect who would rail against the treatment Norman suffered at the hands of the authorities.

The reaction to taking a knee seems the most over the top to me. I think Kaepernick instigated it to highlight the greatly disproportionate number of black men being shot by police in the US, and in Australia it transferred to black deaths in custody. I mean, is that so bad? And it's just taking a knee. Something we could all live with I reckon, and maybe even think about for a moment. While still being able to enjoy the game or contest or race or whatever it is.

Like it or not politics and sport will always meet somewhere. And support and opposition to different issues will vary with different people. I don’t give it too much mind, just enjoy the play, if I’m interested. Big deal. The AFL just about has a round dedicated to every current social issue, so you’d probably bar the whole thing if you took them too seriously. And I think – whether for or against – there’s something much more admirable about player led initiatives (and I know they can sometimes come across as hollow) than those that are imposed from upon high.

bluediamond wrote:

Re. the use of the Southern Cross. The documentary this article talks about is a very worthwhile watch for those who may not understand the modern day symbolism of the southern cross and what it means to alot of aboriginal people and probably for alot of refugees too. https://dailyreview.com.au/southern-cross-become-symbol-australian-racism/
I have posted a link to the actual doco in the past but can't remember where i watched it. But definitely worthy.
I personally would be honoured and stoked to live in a country where the aboriginal flag was our national flag. I would be honoured and stoked to see all Australians embrace aboriginal culture, both historic and modern culture. Sporting, arts, musical, and thats not even scratching the surface. There is so much to embrace about this beautiful culture and the people in it. I also understand people having different view on the matter based on beliefs and upbringing. Good to put the conversation out there. I stand by my comments, that Pauline Hansons comments were un neccesary...vile, disgusting and unwarranted.

So now the southern cross is a racist symbol?
Ffs where does this shit end?!

I’d be up for a flag change, I’d be all for getting rid of the Union Jack.
Maybe a mixture of southern cross and aboriginal flag.
I dont agree with just having the aboriginal flag as our national flag. I’m not aboriginal, why would I want that, it doesn’t make sense...

Roker wrote:

I think the argument about keeping politics out of sport is a disingenuous one. Only to be trotted out if one is uncomfortable with or opposed to what's being expressed.

No one seems to have a problem with soldiers on the field of play on Anzac Day. Ninety thousand people in solemn silence at the MCG in commemoration, or even celebration, of industrial scale butchery. "No passing bells for these who die as cattle...”
.

What a weird thing to say.

Individuals or teams trying to make political or social statements is quite a bit different than official acknowledgments, like an opening ceremony or AFL Anzac day round or an Indigenous round.

bluediamond wrote:

Swellnet, the fact you allow the above poster a platform to speak cheapens your product immensely.

As far as I'm concerned, to "de-platform" someone based on their opinion would be a disgrace.

Precedent has already been set Andy. Surely this falls below the general accepted behaviour.

BD if the precedent you are talking about was a serial pest on this site then I don't think it's a valid comparison

Basically, fuckwits are going to be fuckwits and at some stage we're just going to have to deal with it.

Wanting these people to be de-platformed or cancelled or whatever is paving a way to an extremely ugly future.

...

Andy, only you have the choice to decide what issues you want to focus on in a conversation. If this is the issue you choose over the other thats your choice.
I choose to focus on calling out blatant racism in this situation. There's no place for it. Banning hatespeech/derogatory racist commenters should b a no brainer.
Taking potshots at me for that and steering the conversation away from an extreme racist isn't helpful.

bluediamond wrote:

But on a more serious note. I want to paint a picture for the crew like D Rex, Evosufer and infodreamer.
This is a public website. Anyone can jump on this website and read what these forums contain. The beauty of these forums is people can freely say what they want, without censorship, generally speaking.
Something i feel strongly about is that there are many indigenous surfers around this country, just like us. We're all brothers and sisters....well so i thought.
Theres already a few on here.
What's say a young grommet from a small aboriginal community that loves surfing and is looking for a place to feed his/her surfing brain, stumbles across swellnet and is enthralled by the content! And there is so much good content on here on surfing. Now imagine that same grommet who has found his place in the surfing world and feels it is a place where all the other bullshit outside of surfing doesn't exist, but then comes across this...
by DRex 'Every thing we take for granted in our society is due to the arrival of Europeans. Surfing would not exist and aborigines would still be living in the Stone Age. So thank your lucky stars for Capt Cook." How would that make you feel? Reckon you wouldn't feel like an outsider, less than human.
I'll tell you one thing for certain, if you said that in front of an aboriginal kid, while i was standing there, you wouldn't be saying much again for a long time. Spineless fucks
So yeah, i'm gonna be pretty vocal about this because you lot are spreading poison that could be affecting people in ways you don't even realise. It's that ripple effect.
The sad thing is, there's nothing to be done about you lot. You'll never actually educate yourselves, but spout off hateful, illconsidered trash, that you have no idea who could be reading it and how it could affect everything in their lives.
Fuck yas.

I'm not sure if you read this Andy from earlier this year, but this sums up why i'm outspoken about this.
Except this time you can substitute the above racist comments to 'we all know bluediamond is an aboriginal lover' or whatever was said. Again, how would an indigenous person on this website, whether a kid, an adult or someone who also has close relations to indigenous australia feel about those comments?
I really hope Swellnet can take action against this individual because he's a constant aggressor. It's not me i care about. I've got thick skin and don't give a fuck. It's the ripple effect these kind of comments can have. I really hope Swellnet is better than that otherwise it could be seen to be endorsing comments like that by doing nothing.

goofyfoot wrote:

bluediamond wrote:

Re. the use of the Southern Cross. The documentary this article talks about is a very worthwhile watch for those who may not understand the modern day symbolism of the southern cross and what it means to alot of aboriginal people and probably for alot of refugees too. https://dailyreview.com.au/southern-cross-become-symbol-australian-racism/
I have posted a link to the actual doco in the past but can't remember where i watched it. But definitely worthy.
I personally would be honoured and stoked to live in a country where the aboriginal flag was our national flag. I would be honoured and stoked to see all Australians embrace aboriginal culture, both historic and modern culture. Sporting, arts, musical, and thats not even scratching the surface. There is so much to embrace about this beautiful culture and the people in it. I also understand people having different view on the matter based on beliefs and upbringing. Good to put the conversation out there. I stand by my comments, that Pauline Hansons comments were un neccesary...vile, disgusting and unwarranted.

So now the southern cross is a racist symbol?
Ffs where does this shit end?!

I’d be up for a flag change, I’d be all for getting rid of the Union Jack.
Maybe a mixture of southern cross and aboriginal flag.
I dont agree with just having the aboriginal flag as our national flag. I’m not aboriginal, why would I want that, it doesn’t make sense...

Yes exactly Goofy. Why would you want that? What sense does it make to allow the people who's nation it is and that was stolen off them, to reclaim it and have their national flag. Argue me that if you like.