2022 Election

blindboy's picture
blindboy started the topic in Saturday, 13 Nov 2021 at 7:46am

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Vic Local's picture
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Vic Local Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 4:20pm

"But overall the new bill offers much greater transparency, oversight and human rights protections than the current law and the law in other parts of the country." Human Rights Law Centre
Huge moment in history coming up.
The LNP are at a crossroads. They can either support this bill for the good of Victoria, or they take the Trump option and pander to the ignorant mob. In the short term, rejecting the bill could have serious health consequences for Victorians. In the long term, there's no turning back once you embrace the mob.
Which way will they go? The LNP have given themselves the biggest political wedgie ever. Half their team are "Kill the Bill" nutters while the others realise that that shit has serious consequences.

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Supafreak Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 4:30pm

So what concerns did the 60 barristers have with the bill ?

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Patrick0710 Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 4:47pm

I only understand generally, so as far as that goes: basically they raised some oversight issues, which the amendments have addressed, and some appeal issues, which I believe the Ombudsman still has some concerns about.
There were also a lot of QCs and the likes of the Law Council who are now much more satisfied with the Bill following the amendments.
Someone with legal training would explain it better. Plus it's hard to see through all the hysteria at the moment, like a strong offshore blowing spray into your eyes as you try and paddle into a good one.

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Roker Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 5:20pm

I don't know what the bill means by 'detention', but if the beaks can't even work it out that's a bit of a worry. And appealing detention via VCAT - that's farcical.

"The Victorian Bar recommends that the Bill be amended to:

- More clearly and narrowly define the criteria upon which a person may be detained; and
- Provide for a detained person to be brought before a court as soon as
practicable for the court to review that person’s detention on the merits."

"Guardian Australia has learned they (the crossbenchers)... will be granted, a number of amendments to the bill, including... granting Victorians the right to appeal detention orders at the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal."

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zenagain Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 5:55pm

What I don't understand is why they have to introduce a whole new piece of legislation and a raft of new laws. If the idea was because the current State of Emergency legislation expires on December 15th, why don't they amend the legislation that's already in place?

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blindboy Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 6:07pm

zen, the problem goes back to the Morrison government's abdication of responsibility for managing the pandemic in key areas which forced the states to step in. The purpose of the legislation is that it sets out the powers of the state in future pandemics, saving another shit fight if there is a similar bunch of ideologically driven do nothings in power at the Federal level.

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gsco Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 6:20pm

I agree with zen.

I don't think new legislation needs to be drafted and rushed in right now.

If Australia is of the view that the current pandemic is not over yet and emergency powers need to remain in place for some additional time, then the existing powers should just be extended for a short finite amount of time, for the time being.

Then once the pandemic is passed, all the chaos and hysteria has died down, all the dust has settled, and a lot of lessons are learnt in hindsight, new sensible laws can be drafted and passed with level heads.

I don't see why new and permanent legislation is being railroaded now. Anything drafted and passed in the current environment will most certainly prove to be suboptimal.

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blindboy Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 6:25pm

gsco that assumes that the pandemic is over or nearly so, which it is not. Unfortunately it is likely that various measure will continue to be needed for some time. It makes sense to update the legislation now as it can potentially provide clarity.

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Patrick0710 Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 6:29pm

The VCAT amendment just reflects what's already in s.122 of the current Act. At the moment it's about public health orders and I believe the amendment is about the new pandemic orders. The Bill says if you're detained you have to be reminded every 24 hours about your right to appeal the decision, it's just silent on what that is. So I assume they're just making sure the right to appeal is exactly the same as the current one for public health orders.

So it may well be farcical - what part of VCAT isn't! - but it's nothing new.

There's a whole bunch of hoops the Premier, the Minister and CHO have to jump through, but in my opinion the language of the Bill - which let's remember contains amendments to the current Act - should still be tightened to more closely match the current Act.

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Patrick0710 Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 6:31pm

"What I don't understand is why they have to introduce a whole new piece of legislation and a raft of new laws. If the idea was because the current State of Emergency legislation expires on December 15th, why don't they amend the legislation that's already in place?"

That's exactly what they're doing. It's in the title: "Public Health and Wellbeing Amendment
(Pandemic Management) Bill 2021".

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burleigh Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 6:39pm
blindboy wrote:

gsco that assumes that the pandemic is over or nearly so, which it is not. Unfortunately it is likely that various measure will continue to be needed for some time. It makes sense to update the legislation now as it can potentially provide clarity.

Wait.... you're telling us the Vaccine isnt going to save us from the Pandemic? Or is this Bill because they have known all along the vaccine doesnt work.

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blindboy Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 7:47pm

Mate the vaccine would save us if everyone was vaccinated. At the moment only about two thirds of the total population is vaccinated. When vaccines are approved for children that should rise but with a population of 25 million even at 95% of the total population vaccinated that leaves over a million still vulnerable so we will still get concentrations of cases likely to cause local lockdowns.

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bonza Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 7:49pm

“They” have surmised from the very beginning of the outbreak that the virus and subsequent pandemic very well could be with us for a very long time. The fact “they” have a somewhat effective vaccine developed so quickly is incredible. “They” worry that subsequent mutations thanks in part due to low or under herd immunity will see more deadly strains. Simples.

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blindboy Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 8:01pm

"They" being epidemiologists who have spent decades studying the subject and yes it was an incredible effort by scientists, many employed by the dreaded big pharma, to produce vaccines so rapidly and save millions of lives. Have you ever considered that maybe a lot of people know a lot more than you?

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bonza Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 8:33pm
blindboy wrote:

"They" being epidemiologists who have spent decades studying the subject and yes it was an incredible effort by scientists, many employed by the dreaded big pharma, to produce vaccines so rapidly and save millions of lives. Have you ever considered that maybe a lot of people know a lot more than you?

is that meant for me? if so I probs should have hit the quote button for burleigh it wasnt directed at you . nevertheless- Yes - I ponder my severe lack of knowledge on everything all the time.

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blindboy Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 8:37pm

All good bonza.

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Patrick0710 Thursday, 18 Nov 2021 at 9:23pm

If we all pondered our severe lack of knowledge on everything a bit more we wouldn’t be in this mess.

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Cockee Saturday, 20 Nov 2021 at 7:57pm

The ALP sheep all support the Bill cos they know what's good for them, the Libs are somewhat divided cos they've actually considered the ramifications of the law being passed. Note the arrogance of Dan who just tells us that 'it's good for us'. If polls showed more even support for Vic parties he wouldn't be seen dead with this Bill.

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Patrick0710 Saturday, 20 Nov 2021 at 8:19pm

What are the ramifications of the Bill becoming law?

Vic Local's picture
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Vic Local Saturday, 20 Nov 2021 at 8:49pm

"What are the ramifications of the Bill becoming law?"
It would replace the current state-of-emergency legal structure but with less power to the CHO and more responsibility to elected officials. Governments could declare a pandemic (if required) and introduce public health measures with a legal structure to back it up.
The ramifications of not passing the law is the existing state of emergency structure (which the protestors hate) gets extended after mid Dec or reintroduced in 2022 if there's another wave.
I reckon the only thing that the protesters would be satisfied with is the pandemic bill failing, the state of emergency ending, and governments not being able to implement public health measures to fight a public medical emergency.
The people in the street are either ignorant or batshit crazy, or both.

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Patrick0710 Saturday, 20 Nov 2021 at 9:06pm

Yeah I was wondering what Cockee believes the ramifications of the Bill becoming law to be. I’m assuming from the tone of the post that the ramifications are negative so I was asking what those negative ramifications are.

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Supafreak Sunday, 21 Nov 2021 at 5:13pm

Vic Local's picture
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Vic Local Sunday, 21 Nov 2021 at 8:09pm

For those who don't know, I follow politics quite closely.
The last few days has been utterly fascinating.
The ALP knew Scumo was going to dog whistle to the anti-vaxxers at some point in time. Both sides know this group is a real wildcard at the next election, and they are Scumo's best chance of getting re-elected. It's not like he could stand up in front of the Australian people and say "look at all the great things I've done, give me another 3 years please".
When Scumo got up and said he wanted unvaccinated people to be able to go and have a coffee in Brisbane, he wasn't just shooting from the hip. Dutton was also banging on about segregation in a little wink to the anti-vaxxers on the same day.
This was all happening when the anti-everything mob in Melbourne were getting increasingly extreme. Arrests, bashings, death threats were escalating.
Jumping in bed with the anti-vaxxers is a seriously risky political strategy for Scumo, and the ALP know it. They were ready, and didn't miss with their full on response.
Scumo doesn't have too many arrows left in the quiver. If his attempts to cuddle up with the extremists backfires, and the next polls are bad for the LNP he is vulnerable to a coup. I reckon there would be a couple of LNP ministers who are ambitious for their leader.

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sypkan Sunday, 21 Nov 2021 at 8:21pm

so... considering you follow politics so closely... one can assume you have some links and numbers regarding this...

"This was all happening when the anti-everything mob in Melbourne were getting increasingly extreme. Arrests, bashings, death threats were escalating."

otherwise... one can assume you are just propaganda-ing, exaggerating, and bullshitting...

again...

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Cockee Sunday, 21 Nov 2021 at 8:52pm

Patrick - 14 'ignorant or batshit crazy, or both' QC's wrote an open letter to the government voicing their concerns about the Bill.
211028-Open-Letter-re-PHW-APM-Bill-2021-Vic-FINAL-1-1.pdf

Vic Local's picture
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Vic Local Sunday, 21 Nov 2021 at 10:03pm
sypkan wrote:

so... considering you follow politics so closely... one can assume you have some links and numbers regarding this...

"This was all happening when the anti-everything mob in Melbourne were getting increasingly extreme. Arrests, bashings, death threats were escalating."

otherwise... one can assume you are just propaganda-ing, exaggerating, and bullshitting...

again...

You want links sypkan
https://www.9news.com.au/national/melbourne-man-charged-for-allegedly-in...
https://7news.com.au/news/melbourne/animal-justice-party-mp-andy-meddick...
https://twitter.com/SarkySage/status/1460415033024811011?s=20
Unlike you, I can back up my statements.

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sypkan Sunday, 21 Nov 2021 at 10:22pm

oh geez dude...

I thought for all your carry on...

all your dramatising...

all your esme watson gossiping and tut-tutting...

that amongst the thousands and thousands and thousands of people in the streets for weeks... you'd have one or two significant acts of violence or something...

but no...

that's it?

seriously?

that's all you've got?

my gaawwwd esme... you are the living breathing epitome of a clucky old duck tut-tutting conservative...

bloody hilarious

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Patrick0710 Sunday, 21 Nov 2021 at 11:35pm

Thanks Cockee.
Interesting to see similar concerns expressed in NSW around their emergency powers, even down to the relationship between the CHO and their VCAT equivalent.
Hopefully here the next round of negotiations will see those checks and balances more firmly set.
Cheers.

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Horas Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 12:56am

Wow, there are some hard core totalitarian commos on here. One question to them - what have you got against freedom ?
Firstly ,the " vaccines " don't work. There is enough evidence of this worldwide. Israel,Gibraltar ,Austria ,Iceland to name a few.
Heard much about Africa? No? Why not ?

Easy , hydroxychloroquine ( malaria ) and ivermectin.
Fuck ,Indonesia started using Ivermectin. India,Mexico,Peru also Japan .
This is a scam riding on the back of climate hoax ( another story there )
If you can't see what's going on ,you're wilfully ignorant or a complete moron.
99.9 % recovery rate,average age of death -83 and those are with co - morbidities .A glorified flu.
Under 75 nothing to fear,except the government and their poison.
Wanting to vaccinate kids is child abuse.
The people marching in OZ ,specifically Melbourne ( home of the most deranged premier ) have concerns over unlimited government powers and rightly so .Any sane person wants LESS government in their lives not MORE.FUCK the government,they are NOT your friends.Anyone defending the government needs their head read or are complete commo FILTH
Those squabbling over labour,liberal or liberal ,labour need to wake up.
It is nothing more than a Uniparty.They are the SAME. ALL politicians are there for one reason only and that is to keep their snouts firmly in the trough.
THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU.

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Horas Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 1:00am

And don't get me started on the MSM scum

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Horas Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 1:09am

What's the difference between Rittenhouse,Pfizer and Moderna ?

Rittenhouse' s shots are effective.

You just HAVE to love ❤️ that ,yeeehaa

Vic Local's picture
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Vic Local Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 7:54am
sypkan wrote:

oh geez dude...

I thought for all your carry on...

all your dramatising...

all your esme watson gossiping and tut-tutting...

that amongst the thousands and thousands and thousands of people in the streets for weeks... you'd have one or two significant acts of violence or something...

but no...

that's it?

seriously?

that's all you've got?

my gaawwwd esme... you are the living breathing epitome of a clucky old duck tut-tutting conservative...

bloody hilarious

Seriously sypkan,
I could spend 24 hours putting up links to thousands of photos, videos and articles showing extremist behaviour at Melbourne's anti-everything rallies, but what's the point?
Absolutely nothing would convince you there's a large extremist element to that mob.

Your problem is, you're a fucking idiot. You too Horas.

If the Swellnet owners wanted their site to become the 8Chan of surfing forums, mission accomplished guys.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:21am

VIC Local demands to see the store manager!

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sypkan Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:35am

mate, I've seen you sprout more extremist shit on here, about pauline hanson, her suppirters and the unvaccinated ...same with the US... you've wished all sorts of misfortune on millions and millions of people...

when that chick says she 'can't wait to see dan andrews on the end of a rope'... any normal person knows she's talking about the end of his term and not much else...

you on the other hand, you miserable fuck, have been wishing all sorts of people dead, and wishing and willing corona out breaks all for your own political gain...

when did 'the left' become so nasty?

rabid reactionary dogs with no respect for fellow man?

you are the extremist, and it is ugly!

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Vic Local Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:27am
Blowin wrote:

VIC Local demands to see the store manager!

Whatever champ. Shouldn't you be rounding up South Koreans for deportation or telling stories about how many people you "personally know who ended up in hospital / dead due to the vaccine".
Maybe chuck a few more of your laughable immigration/covid statistics up again. You are due for another mocking.

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sypkan Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:28am

more 'extremism' from the rally...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=610123410438102&id=100043213...

seems the 'right wing extremists' ...cough cough.. are growing up and learning

if only the fake left extremists could do the same...

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Blowin Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:38am

Dan Andrews has imposed extremist restrictions on the Victorian population.

The worlds longest house arrest on innocent people.
The worlds most draconian restrictions on innocent population.

Dan Andrews is literally an extremist who should be in prison for his actions.

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arcadia Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:39am

Horas,
Pretty sure Japan has neither started using ivermectin nor endorsed the use of ivermectin. Perhaps Zen has heard something...

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Vic Local Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:46am
Blowin wrote:

Dan Andrews has imposed extremist restrictions on the Victorian population.

The worlds longest house arrest on innocent people.
The worlds most draconian restrictions on innocent population.

Dan Andrews is literally an extremist who should be in prison for his actions.

At least you don't want him shot or executed like a bunch of people in that idiot mob. Small mercies eh blowin?

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stunet Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:47am

I remember when surfers used to argue over wave size.

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velocityjohnno Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:51am

Now that the health response has turned political (rather than medically determined, like the CHOs being given pandemic response, written in law) everything on all sides has turned completely retarded. The only winning move is not to play.

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stunet Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 11:01am
velocityjohnno wrote:

The only winning move is not to play.

Aye.

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Blowin Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 11:11am

.

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velocityjohnno Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 1:27pm

Oh yeah, thanks to CG above for linking the preferences for the last election some pages ago. My rough take was:
Greens: preferences go to ALP
Clive: Lib
ON: Lib
Independents: 50/50ish
Most preferences go to the ALP but the % that does has been falling (I think) like ALP primary vote.

Voting strategy for me is the following choices I guess, if I do the local electorate lower house federal vote, I'll end up getting preferenced to one of the big parties anyway. If I do the senate, I'll do my usual trick of numbering everything, all 100+ of the things according to how I want them to go. (Sustainable Australia #1, do it for the environment!). If I do this, do my little independent choices then get preferenced, even after I painstakingly order them? Hope not.

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Vic Local Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 2:07pm

"Oh yeah, thanks to CG above for linking the preferences for the last election some pages ago. My rough take was:
Greens: preferences go to ALP
Clive: Lib
ON: Lib
Independents: 50/50ish
Most preferences go to the ALP but the % that does has been falling (I think) like ALP primary vote."

It's a bit more complex than that. The how to vote cards play a big role. If the Greens preference labor in a lower house seat 90% of the greens voters will preference the ALP. If they issue a split ticket it's about 70%.
Presence at polling booths is crucial. Micro parties are lucky to have half a dozen volunteers covering 40 odd booths for 10 hours on Election Day. The thing about Palmer is he can buy a presence at polling booths and make sure the voters get his HTV cards pushing people to preference the Libs. Libs do the same. $20 cash and hour to kids to make sure people get their HTV cards. They really struggle to find enough people so a bit of casual off the books labour goes down.
Labor volunteers will often hand out micro party cards if the preferences are flowing to the ALP. Voters looking for a non-existent Socialist Alliance volunteer will be given a SA card by the Labor volunteer.
Every single vote counts and shit load of effort is made to ensure the best possible presence at polling booths.
A mate of mine put up ALP signage at all the prominent areas of his booth at 2am the night before the election. When the Lib booth leader sooked, mate said "you should have got up earlier. fuck off idiot.".

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Blowin Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 2:20pm

“A mate of mine put up ALP signage at all the prominent areas of his booth at 2am the night before the election. When the Lib booth leader sooked, mate said "you should have got up earlier. fuck off idiot.".

I’m sure that’s exactly how it went down between the two electoral volunteers…..lol

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Blowin Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 2:22pm

Serious question:

How do I structure my vote so that ALP / LNP/ Greens / Palmer / Hanson get no preferences and someone like Sustainable Australia gets all the joss?

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gragagan Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 2:34pm

Donkey vote? But then no-one gets it

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Vic Local Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 3:11pm
Blowin wrote:

Serious question:

How do I structure my vote so that ALP / LNP/ Greens / Palmer / Hanson get no preferences and someone like Sustainable Australia gets all the joss?

I could say FFS blowin, for a bloke who bangs on about politics so much, you'd think you'd know how the ballots work, but I will actually help you.

In short, you have 2 basic options in the lower house. 1. Sustainable Australia are not going to be in the top two parties. This will typically be Lab / Lib, or it could be Lib / Ind or Lab / Green depending on your seat. If you put lab 5 and lib 6. your vote will go to Labor. If you didn't want any preferences to flow to any of those parties you could...
2. get your name ticked off and vote informal. eg fuck up numbering or deface the ballot paper. A cock and balls is standard, but if you want to get creative, do an ejaculation as well. Maybe even "vote 1 blowin coz a hate the rest of you cuntz and I'm always right"

In the senate, don't be lazy and number every candidate and you'll end up getting the person you hate the least.

Simples.

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Vic Local Monday, 22 Nov 2021 at 3:17pm
gragagan wrote:

Donkey vote? But then no-one gets it

I think you mean informal gragagan.
Donkey vote (voting 1,2,3,4,5... down the ticket is actually important. Estimated to be between 1-2%. It can make the difference in a tight lower house seat.
It's also important in the Senate. Lyonhjelm managed to jag a six year Senate gig by pure luck because he drew the number 1 slot on the ticket in NSW for the Liberal Democrats. This micro party typically gets 1% of the vote, but I think he got something like 11 or 12% in NSW because a shit load of Liberal voters were too stupid to realise they weren't actually voting for the Liberals. I mean how dumb can you get.