2022 Election

blindboy's picture
blindboy started the topic in Saturday, 13 Nov 2021 at 7:46am

.

andy-mac's picture
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 12:06pm
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:
flollo wrote:

@DSDS I think the botox discussion is way more important

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/anthony-albanese-shuts-down-bot...

That’s Albo’s job….distract, deflect and hide their corporate neoliberal agenda as they push it through as utmost priority.

Democracy in Australia is a sham.

Maybe so, but can you point out a country that had a better system? It's flawed for sure, but what alternative is there?
I would argue a more direct democracy could work better without preference voting, first over the line then must negotiate with other parties giving smaller voices more volume. Would this work, or would nothing get done? Dunno?
Ripping into Albo and what you think Labor are doing after less than 6 months is a bit premature. On another headline today, Labor starting to change stance on stage 3 tax cuts. My guess is they will not proceed in present form.
Dam, was trying to stay off this forum, bloody vortex. Ha

Yep. Australia fifty years ago had a far better system. The globalists had yet to fully corrupt the ALP / LNP duopoly into complete dysfunction and Australians were broadly represented politically, instead of being given a fake choice between neoliberal Coke and Pepsi at every election as we are today. Our votes are essentially meaningless now, at least as far as any genuine change in political narrative and direction. This was not the case previously.

Really??
Around 50 years ago young Australian men were being sent to kill and be killed in Vietnam at the behest of the good ol USA. Gough thankfully ended conscription with his election win. He then implemented many of the radical at the times policies such as free education, universal health, and gave Sydney a proper sewerage system plus others as well as some mistakes. Many different theories why his term ended some with the CIA and US administration playing a part.
My take us that Australia has always been to a certain extent a Vassel state of the USA post WW2, before then it was Britain. Within this context there are some things a Oz govt cannot do in regards to the international situation. At least Labor endeavour to improve lives of Australians generally when it can. Albo has already demonstrated this with some of the policies implemented. They seem to be trying to govern with a sense of transparency and decency unlike the previous corrupt rabble. Also the Greens are now at least asking questions regarding how it is ok for the serving PM to commit Australia to war without an act of parliament, a idea that has the LNP fighting against. Geez how dare the Australian people have a say if it's ok to send young men and women off to die for someone else's war. Anyway I digress ...

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 12:15pm

Not sure if anyone here knows of this fellow, but I think Satyajit Das puts things pretty well in part 2 of his 3-part series on the end of the global western empire (parts 1 and 2 are available, part 3 is upcoming).

I remember Satyajit Das from his famous practitioner-oriented textbooks on quantitative finance and financial derivatives, which were considered as bibles in the industry (along with Paul Wilmott's books) when I worked in it. I think the below also roughly summarises much of his arguments in his book Fortune's Fool.

Das wrote:

Deep-seated societal failures complicate the West's position.

Ostensibly participative Western political systems are nearing anarchy. The value of suffrage is reduced by routine gerrymandering, choices between unpalatable, incompetent and absurd candidates, lack of understanding of key issues, the absence of substantive policies, civic disengagement, result denial and promotion of insurrection.

Governments mainly serve well-funded or vocal special interests. As Mancur Olson forecast in The Logic of Collective Action and The Rise and Decline of Nations, well-funded coalitions now influence policies ensuring benefits to narrow interest groups leaving large costs to be borne by the rest of the population. Alternatively, countervailing forces create paralysis.

The complex challenges and lack of easy solutions underlies the rising culture wars in Western democracies. Worthy causes -- liberty, gender, sexuality, history, indigenous rights, multi-culturalism -- are largely matters of belief and values. Positions are fundamentally irreconcilable but politically useful in manipulating a fissiparous electorate.

Power is concentrated in the hands of celebrity leaders. Elected representatives, many unknown to voters, serve merely as Lenin's 'parliamentary cretins' rubber stamping the party's will or ensuring permanent deadlock.

Leaders themselves are an uninspiring lot, long on cunning and media savvy but little else. Constant media scrutiny of private lives and better financial rewards on offer elsewhere mean politics attracts in the main uniquely unqualified aspirants whose highest potential is mediocrity. Aesop's observation that "we hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office" is accurate.

Politics is now "panem et circenses" (bread and circuses) as Juvenal wrote in Satire X. The focus is superficial appeasement in form of glib announcements which will remain largely unimplemented. The objective is to distract and divert while maintaining electability.

Outside election periods, it is the preserve of professional politicians, operatives and a breathless media providing low-cost, constant entertainment for political addicts.

There is parallel institutional decay. State bureaucracies, once capable of providing objective and independent advice, have been decapitated. Career specialist public servants have been replaced with malleable political appointees. Law enforcement and the judiciary are increasingly politicised. Justice requires deep pockets or ability to garner fickle public or media support.

Focused on viral news and trending items, the mainstream press, for the most part, now cannot distinguish between facts, analysis and opinion. The power of the Internet to cheaply disseminate has seen the rise of independent bloggers and websites of variable quality. Over time, a process of self-selection ensures that tribes congregate in cyber echo-chambers. Western coverage of the Ukraine conflict -- a combination Pravda-esque reporting and Goebbels-inspired propaganda -- highlights the fact that shared objective facts necessary for an informed debate are no longer accessible.

US founding father John Adams was correct in thinking that democracy wastes, exhausts and murders itself without the right conditions.

andy-mac's picture
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 12:15pm
gsco wrote:

Not sure if anyone here knows of this fellow, but I think Satyajit Das puts things pretty well in part 2 of his 3-part series on the end of the global western empire (parts 1 and 2 are available, part 3 is upcoming).

I remember Satyajit Das from his famous practitioner-oriented textbooks on quantitative finance and financial derivatives, which were considered as bibles in the industry (along with Paul Wilmott's books) when I worked in it. I think the below also roughly summarises much of his arguments in his book Fortune's Fool.

Das wrote:

Deep-seated societal failures complicate the West's position.

Ostensibly participative Western political systems are nearing anarchy. The value of suffrage is reduced by routine gerrymandering, choices between unpalatable, incompetent and absurd candidates, lack of understanding of key issues, the absence of substantive policies, civic disengagement, result denial and promotion of insurrection.

Governments mainly serve well-funded or vocal special interests. As Mancur Olson forecast in The Logic of Collective Action and The Rise and Decline of Nations, well-funded coalitions now influence policies ensuring benefits to narrow interest groups leaving large costs to be borne by the rest of the population. Alternatively, countervailing forces create paralysis.

The complex challenges and lack of easy solutions underlies the rising culture wars in Western democracies. Worthy causes -- liberty, gender, sexuality, history, indigenous rights, multi-culturalism -- are largely matters of belief and values. Positions are fundamentally irreconcilable but politically useful in manipulating a fissiparous electorate.

Power is concentrated in the hands of celebrity leaders. Elected representatives, many unknown to voters, serve merely as Lenin's 'parliamentary cretins' rubber stamping the party's will or ensuring permanent deadlock.

Leaders themselves are an uninspiring lot, long on cunning and media savvy but little else. Constant media scrutiny of private lives and better financial rewards on offer elsewhere mean politics attracts in the main uniquely unqualified aspirants whose highest potential is mediocrity. Aesop's observation that "we hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office" is accurate.

Politics is now "panem et circenses" (bread and circuses) as Juvenal wrote in Satire X. The focus is superficial appeasement in form of glib announcements which will remain largely unimplemented. The objective is to distract and divert while maintaining electability.

Outside election periods, it is the preserve of professional politicians, operatives and a breathless media providing low-cost, constant entertainment for political addicts.

There is parallel institutional decay. State bureaucracies, once capable of providing objective and independent advice, have been decapitated. Career specialist public servants have been replaced with malleable political appointees. Law enforcement and the judiciary are increasingly politicised. Justice requires deep pockets or ability to garner fickle public or media support.

Focused on viral news and trending items, the mainstream press, for the most part, now cannot distinguish between facts, analysis and opinion. The power of the Internet to cheaply disseminate has seen the rise of independent bloggers and websites of variable quality. Over time, a process of self-selection ensures that tribes congregate in cyber echo-chambers. Western coverage of the Ukraine conflict -- a combination Pravda-esque reporting and Goebbels-inspired propaganda -- highlights the fact that shared objective facts necessary for an informed debate are no longer accessible.

US founding father John Adams was correct in thinking that democracy wastes, exhausts and murders itself without the right conditions.

The position outside the West is different but not better. Democracy means nothing to people who live for the most part in abject poverty without life's basics. You can't eat the right to vote although you might get a few cents for selling the right.

Most non-Western countries pay lip-service to democratic formulas or more wisely save money and energy by dispensing with plebiscites. There is no pretence at citizen participation, independent institutions or toleration of dissent. But these top-down systems have the advantage of forcing through necessary unpopular adjustments. It is difficult to imagine China's zero Covid policy being implemented elsewhere. Autocracies are also able and willing to inflict greater suffering on subjects than under more democratic systems.

Underlying these differences are individual expectations. Citizens of the West are used to or aspire to high living standards and personal freedoms. Western societies, evolutionary biologist Peter Turchin argues, overproduce overeducated elites who demand that governments shield their lifestyles, irrespective of practicality or cost, from the effects of economic downturns, extreme weather events, terrorism, influx of immigrants, a virus or bad personal choices. They assume that bad things happen only to others but not to them.

Today, stagnant incomes, the rising costs of middle-class life -- food, energy, health, education -- and uncertainty mean that prospects are lower then what they believe to be their due. This creates dissatisfaction and anger which can easily spill over into social unrest, similar to that of the1930s.

Yes interesting times indeed ...

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 12:27pm
andy-mac wrote:
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:
flollo wrote:

@DSDS I think the botox discussion is way more important

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/anthony-albanese-shuts-down-bot...

That’s Albo’s job….distract, deflect and hide their corporate neoliberal agenda as they push it through as utmost priority.

Democracy in Australia is a sham.

Maybe so, but can you point out a country that had a better system? It's flawed for sure, but what alternative is there?
I would argue a more direct democracy could work better without preference voting, first over the line then must negotiate with other parties giving smaller voices more volume. Would this work, or would nothing get done? Dunno?
Ripping into Albo and what you think Labor are doing after less than 6 months is a bit premature. On another headline today, Labor starting to change stance on stage 3 tax cuts. My guess is they will not proceed in present form.
Dam, was trying to stay off this forum, bloody vortex. Ha

Yep. Australia fifty years ago had a far better system. The globalists had yet to fully corrupt the ALP / LNP duopoly into complete dysfunction and Australians were broadly represented politically, instead of being given a fake choice between neoliberal Coke and Pepsi at every election as we are today. Our votes are essentially meaningless now, at least as far as any genuine change in political narrative and direction. This was not the case previously.

Really??
Around 50 years ago young Australian men were being sent to kill and be killed in Vietnam at the behest of the good ol USA. Gough thankfully ended conscription with his election win. He then implemented many of the radical at the times policies such as free education, universal health, and gave Sydney a proper sewerage system plus others as well as some mistakes. Many different theories why his term ended some with the CIA and US administration playing a part.
My take us that Australia has always been to a certain extent a Vassel state of the USA post WW2, before then it was Britain. Within this context there are some things a Oz govt cannot do in regards to the international situation. At least Labor endeavour to improve lives of Australians generally when it can. Albo has already demonstrated this with some of the policies implemented. They seem to be trying to govern with a sense of transparency and decency unlike the previous corrupt rabble. Also the Greens are now at least asking questions regarding how it is ok for the serving PM to commit Australia to war without an act of parliament, a idea that has the LNP fighting against. Geez how dare the Australian people have a say if it's ok to send young men and women off to die for someone else's war. Anyway I digress ...

Of course we were (are) a vassal state. It’s no secret. We are part of the British empire for Christ’s sake. A British colony.

As you said yourself, the changeover to unrepresentative democracy happened when the US took over as our masters from the British as British power faltered. Gough getting the boot was the death knell for true democracy in Australia. Now we get political distraction after political distraction to keep our eyes off the fact that we are living in a sunny sky Matrix where Australians are reduced to useable livestock for international corporations and the plutocracy.

Right….let’s throw the Indigenous Voice at ‘em for a few years. That’ll burn up the front pages!

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 12:32pm

“At least Labor endeavour to improve lives of Australians generally when it can.”

Huh? You keep sticking to this idea despite it being proven untrue. Not sure what more I can say? Albo is not governing for Australians and his actions completely overwhelm and ridicule any historic cultural belief that the ALP are friends of Australians. The days of the ALP representing Australians are decades gone.

andy-mac's picture
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 12:52pm
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:

“At least Labor endeavour to improve lives of Australians generally when it can.”

Huh? You keep sticking to this idea despite it being proven untrue. Not sure what more I can say? Albo is not governing for Australians and his actions completely overwhelm and ridicule any historic cultural belief that the ALP are friends of Australians. The days of the ALP representing Australians are decades gone.

Yep less than 6 months in and with the mess that was left, it's a disgrace they haven't fixed everything.

Below from ALP website. Let's judge them at end of term how they perform with these ...

"Anthony Albanese and Labor's plan for a better future will:

Strengthen Medicare by making it easier to see the doctor.

Create secure local jobs by investing in Fee-Free TAFE and more university places, and make your job more secure with better pay and conditions.

Make child care cheaper so that it’s easier for working families to get ahead.

Make more things here by working with business to invest in manufacturing and renewables to create more Australian jobs.
Labor will deliver a future where no one is held back and no one is left behind. "

quadzilla's picture
quadzilla's picture
quadzilla Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 1:07pm

LOL, the ALP website

They haven't even got a plan to successfully run a pub chook raffle.

History has shown how absolutely poor they are at running the economy.

They campaigned on bringing cost of living down, well mine has gone up a LOT!

All consumables cost more.

As for saying they inherited a mess, thats what they left for the coalition id 2013 and they were on the way to getting things sorted then Covid came.

All the ALP spin may sound good but its BullSpin.

andy-mac's picture
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 1:16pm
quadzilla wrote:

LOL, the ALP website

They haven't even got a plan to successfully run a pub chook raffle.

History has shown how absolutely poor they are at running the economy.

They campaigned on bringing cost of living down, well mine has gone up a LOT!

All consumables cost more.

As for saying they inherited a mess, thats what they left for the coalition id 2013 and they were on the way to getting things sorted then Covid came.

All the ALP spin may sound good but its BullSpin.

Cool story bud....

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 1:23pm

"Strengthen Medicare by making it easier to see the doctor.

Create secure local jobs by investing in Fee-Free TAFE and more university places, and make your job more secure with better pay and conditions.

Make child care cheaper so that it’s easier for working families to get ahead.

Make more things here by working with business to invest in manufacturing and renewables to create more Australian jobs.
Labor will deliver a future where no one is held back and no one is left behind. "

Bit of window dressing mixed in with some blatant bullshit.

AlfredWallace's picture
AlfredWallace's picture
AlfredWallace Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 1:29pm
quadzilla wrote:

LOL, the ALP website

They haven't even got a plan to successfully run a pub chook raffle.

History has shown how absolutely poor they are at running the economy.

They campaigned on bringing cost of living down, well mine has gone up a LOT!

All consumables cost more.

As for saying they inherited a mess, thats what they left for the coalition id 2013 and they were on the way to getting things sorted then Covid came.

All the ALP spin may sound good but its BullSpin.

quadrzilla. Based on your premise, societies only exist because of how you run an economy, really. I know a non-monetary society thats existed for 47,500 years continuously and had less woes than we’ve ever had. Wow, you and i live in very different worlds then. You a shareholder out of interest?

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 1:37pm

Below from ALP website. Let's judge them at end of term how they perform with these ...

"Anthony Albanese and Labor's plan for a better future will:

Strengthen Medicare by making it easier to see the doctor.

Create secure local jobs by investing in Fee-Free TAFE and more university places, and make your job more secure with better pay and conditions.

Make child care cheaper so that it’s easier for working families to get ahead.

Make more things here by working with business to invest in manufacturing and renewables to create more Australian jobs.
Labor will deliver a future where no one is held back and no one is left behind. "

Well, already they’ve declared a human torrent if millions of immigrants which will utterly overwhelm the already utterly overwhelmed health system…so easier to see a doctor?
Lol. That’s a lie

Create secure jobs with training?
Umm…same with the immigration which is expressly desired by business to act as a destructive force on wage growth and working conditions including security. Labour also continues the LNP “temporary “ measure of allowing foreign students unlimited hours work rights which continues the conduit of international “students “ only attending university and tertiary education in order to game work rights in Australia. This directly influences standards of education and educational experience for Australian youth…and not in a good way.

So that’s another lie.

Make child care cheaper says the ALP.
How…by undercutting wages for child care workers using exploitable foreign labour? By subsidising child care costs with money borrowed by the government and the debt slung onto taxpayers in a real wages tax? Or how about the fact that child care is so essential because the ALP will massively increase demand for housing with their mass immigration policy, which will push up rents and mortgages necessitating mothers need more child care due to work commitments.

Another lie by ALP

Finally…the big lie about “making things in Australia”after they deliberately eviscerate the manufacturing sector with their deliberate juicing of energy prices, to the extent that manufacturing is not economically viable in Australia.

So….another lie.

100% lies by ALP.

Forget what they say, watch what they do. The ALP has no regard for you or your family beyond your usefulness to corporate interests.

Democracy in Australia is a sham

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 1:47pm

Most of what you've written there is incorrect in fact or assertion.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 1:50pm
AndyM wrote:

"Strengthen Medicare by making it easier to see the doctor.

Create secure local jobs by investing in Fee-Free TAFE and more university places, and make your job more secure with better pay and conditions.

Make child care cheaper so that it’s easier for working families to get ahead.

Make more things here by working with business to invest in manufacturing and renewables to create more Australian jobs.
Labor will deliver a future where no one is held back and no one is left behind. "

Bit of window dressing mixed in with some blatant bullshit.

be hard to paint a more bland, cliched, labor party list of 'commitments' of non binding non commitments if you tried...

andy-mac's picture
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 1:56pm
sypkan wrote:
AndyM wrote:

"Strengthen Medicare by making it easier to see the doctor.

Create secure local jobs by investing in Fee-Free TAFE and more university places, and make your job more secure with better pay and conditions.

Make child care cheaper so that it’s easier for working families to get ahead.

Make more things here by working with business to invest in manufacturing and renewables to create more Australian jobs.

Bit of window dressing mixed in with some blatant bullshit.

be hard to paint a more bland, cliched, labor party list of 'commitments' of non binding non commitments if you tried...

And my point being if they do not deliver then yep go hard on them, but less than 6 months into a term of government, it's a bit rich saying they are sell outs. Agree with last sentence being political cheap talk.

"Labor will deliver a future where no one is held back and no one is left behind. "

Not as bad as " if you have a go, you'll get a go."

andy-mac's picture
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 1:59pm
sypkan wrote:
AndyM wrote:

"Strengthen Medicare by making it easier to see the doctor.

Create secure local jobs by investing in Fee-Free TAFE and more university places, and make your job more secure with better pay and conditions.

Make child care cheaper so that it’s easier for working families to get ahead.

Make more things here by working with business to invest in manufacturing and renewables to create more Australian jobs.
Labor will deliver a future where no one is held back and no one is left behind. "

Bit of window dressing mixed in with some blatant bullshit.

be hard to paint a more bland, cliched, labor party list of 'commitments' of non binding non commitments if you tried...

Btw, we would not have Medicare if not for Labor government's. Protection of that alone is enough to make them the better beverage if Coke and Pepsi are the choices ..

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 2:12pm

old Das is on the money...

that whole quote is spot on

strip away the 'captured democray', the celebrity, the b graders, and the same same... and contemporary politics basically boils down to this...

"The complex challenges and lack of easy solutions underlies the rising culture wars in Western democracies. Worthy causes -- liberty, gender, sexuality, history, indigenous rights, multi-culturalism -- are largely matters of belief and values. Positions are fundamentally irreconcilable but politically useful in manipulating a fissiparous electorate."

a battle of my 'belief' is better than yours...

belief being the key word

"Positions are fundamentally irreconcilable"

yep

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 2:21pm

'...And my point being if they do not deliver then yep go hard on them, but less than 6 months into a term of government, it's a bit rich saying they are sell outs. Agree with last sentence being political cheap talk..."

Id like to agree... but the gas situation offered them the ultimate challenge...

a chance to...

'nail their colours to the mast' (to quote peter garrett)

and they failed miseably... on 2 or 3 occasions now...

they're more bought than morrison

at least morrison has ideology as an excuse

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 2:37pm

"It doesn’t do to remember anything in the Australian political economy. It goes against every instinct of the iMSM and our Rum Corps leadership.

Memory equals accountability and we can’t have that..."

"MORRISON GOVERNMENT GAS DEAL

July 05, 2019

Gas prices have skyrocketed under the Liberals – already leading three manufacturers to close down and threatening the viability of many more businesses according to the ACCC.

The Coalition has talked a big game but has refused to bring big gas companies to heel.

Under Senator Rex Patrick’s deal, the Government has committed that gas prices for Australian manufacturers and households will be cut to $7 a gigajoule or less.

It is now time for the Government to deliver clear detail about how this price will be achieved and when by; and what does Scott Morrison propose to do if manufacturers find themselves unable to source gas at the price promised by the Government.

Yet, bizarrely, Labor has just agreed to an LNG netback price benchmark for the ADGSM that will deliver not $7Gj gas but $70Gj. Who “has refused to bring big gas companies to heel”?"

bizarrely indeed

andy-mac's picture
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 4:53pm
sypkan wrote:

'...And my point being if they do not deliver then yep go hard on them, but less than 6 months into a term of government, it's a bit rich saying they are sell outs. Agree with last sentence being political cheap talk..."

Id like to agree... but the gas situation offered them the ultimate challenge...

a chance to...

'nail their colours to the mast' (to quote peter garrett)

and they failed miseably... on 2 or 3 occasions now...

they're more bought than morrison

at least morrison has ideology as an excuse

Maybe, I have commented on here re Gas and think it's a joke how much revenue we receive. If the contracts signed by Howard are easily changed I have no idea. What would have been repercussions if cancelling or changing contracts, I don't know, do you? Do fossil fuel companies have too much power with lobbyists etc? Definitely.
Politics is about compromise on what you would like to do and what you can do. I am still of belief that if Labor go too hard the MSM will crucify them, they are already circling over stage 3 tax cut promises. They probably still have nightmares over the last time they tried to tax the ff industry. Remember they lost govt....
Geez how much airtime does Dutton and other opposition members get compared to Labor when they were in opposition. It's a joke.

What was Morrison's ideology besides staying in power??

Geez Labor are either bought out by Unions or bought out by industry... Geez they cannot catch a break ...

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 5:38pm
AndyM wrote:

Positive role model for who?

Conservative white people who want someone to hide behind so they (hopefully) don't get labelled as racist?

A positive role model for Indigenous people, she empowers indigenous people because she calls them to take ownership of their issues and bring change from within (the only place change can come from) and teaches and shows them by example what can be achieved and not by some city folk with no understanding of the issues ala Lidia but from an Indigenous girl from central Australia one that has been in their shoes and suffered domestic violence and seen her family affected by violence (even murders)

As you know Jacinta's focus is on indigenous women and families in remote communities which goes back to the influence of her mother who has always gone against the grain and fought back against her mob at 13 years old when she was to be set up with an arranged marriage, while she escaped that she still ended up pregnant at 14 and almost killed by an abusive indigenous partner, but she set out to get herself educated and then became involved in politics and other things like Indigenous Affairs Advisory Council.

So obviously Bess was the positive strong role model for Jacinta who now takes that baton and is a strong positive role models for indigenous people especially indigenous women in remote community's trying to (or brave enough) to escape abusive relationships.

Yeah sure many indigenous people also dont like what she has to say because she challenges them to change and take ownership of their issues(especially men), obviously that's a much harder road than the easy road of accepting the narrative that all your issues are due to others or a past beyond you and any change needs to come from others or government rather than yourself or your community, adopting that view and position is going down an easy road but obviously a road to nowhere.

In regard to your negative comment about white conservatives, obviously these types of comments just come from a place of ignorance and lack of understanding on who Jacinta is or is about, i recommend listing to one or two more recent podcast on Spotify from her and you might be surprised on her views and what she is about.

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 5:48pm
stunet wrote:

Most of what you've written there is incorrect in fact or assertion.

Examples?

Supafreak's picture
Supafreak's picture
Supafreak Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 6:08pm
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 7:16pm
gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 7:30pm

Yes great article andy-mac. Dr Richard Denniss gets it. Sensible speak from a well respected economist.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 8:16pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
AndyM wrote:

Positive role model for who?

Conservative white people who want someone to hide behind so they (hopefully) don't get labelled as racist?

A positive role model for Indigenous people, she empowers indigenous people because she calls them to take ownership of their issues and bring change from within (the only place change can come from) and teaches and shows them by example what can be achieved and not by some city folk with no understanding of the issues ala Lidia but from an Indigenous girl from central Australia one that has been in their shoes and suffered domestic violence and seen her family affected by violence (even murders)

As you know Jacinta's focus is on indigenous women and families in remote communities which goes back to the influence of her mother who has always gone against the grain and fought back against her mob at 13 years old when she was to be set up with an arranged marriage, while she escaped that she still ended up pregnant at 14 and almost killed by an abusive indigenous partner, but she set out to get herself educated and then became involved in politics and other things like Indigenous Affairs Advisory Council.

So obviously Bess was the positive strong role model for Jacinta who now takes that baton and is a strong positive role models for indigenous people especially indigenous women in remote community's trying to (or brave enough) to escape abusive relationships.

Yeah sure many indigenous people also dont like what she has to say because she challenges them to change and take ownership of their issues(especially men), obviously that's a much harder road than the easy road of accepting the narrative that all your issues are due to others or a past beyond you and any change needs to come from others or government rather than yourself or your community, adopting that view and position is going down an easy road but obviously a road to nowhere.

In regard to your negative comment about white conservatives, obviously these types of comments just come from a place of ignorance and lack of understanding on who Jacinta is or is about, i recommend listing to one or two more recent podcast on Spotify from her and you might be surprised on her views and what she is about.

As far as I can work out she's anything but a role model for a huge number of indigenous people, including the 7000+ who signed a petition titled "As an Aboriginal Person Jacinta and Bess Price DO NOT represent me or speak on my behalf".
And I strongly doubt that Price is a role model for the thousands of local traditional owners, Indigenous community-based organisations and Indigenous leaders who sat through a dozen deliberative dialogues to thrash out the Uluru Statement.
Jacinta Price rubs shoulders with Tony Abbott, Alan Jones and Malcolm Roberts, - she is hanging out with bigots and racists.
So she is at the very least a useful stooge to these white conservatives.
My comments are not coming from a place of ignorance, it's very clear who she does and doesn't represent in reality.

andy-mac's picture
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 8:33pm
gsco wrote:

Yes great article andy-mac. Dr Richard Denniss gets it. Sensible speak from a well respected economist.

Agree, hope common sense prevails. Those tax cuts I guess would be a disaster...

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 9:43pm

chalmers should just balls up and call it

pressure coming from all angles now

"The former governor of the Reserve Bank, Bernie Fraser, has criticised the Labor government for sticking to the “very dodgy” stage-three tax cuts, arguing they should be repealed to allow for spending on social programs.

Condemning the tax cut package as “unfair and unwarranted”..."

and

"...“I think the more honourable course for Labor would be to use the power it now has in government following the election … to promote the interests of the people of Australia and bring those interests back to the fore..."

there's a novel thought in modern politics...

their poition is looking basically untenable now

but they (still) need to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to the party...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/oct...

andy-mac's picture
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 10:19pm
sypkan wrote:

chalmers should just balls up and call it

pressure coming from all angles now

"The former governor of the Reserve Bank, Bernie Fraser, has criticised the Labor government for sticking to the “very dodgy” stage-three tax cuts, arguing they should be repealed to allow for spending on social programs.

Condemning the tax cut package as “unfair and unwarranted”..."

and

"...“I think the more honourable course for Labor would be to use the power it now has in government following the election … to promote the interests of the people of Australia and bring those interests back to the fore..."

there's a novel thought in modern politics...

their poition is looking basically untenable now

but they (still) need to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to the party...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/oct...

Give em time, it won't happen..... Alboliar the big taxer flyers already have been made up at LNP and Newscorpe head quarters.

andy-mac's picture
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 10:24pm

Also would have been nice if the media and all the others being critical of these tax cuts said something when Morrison put them to parliament..... Na better economic managers.
Kind of like RBA, no rate hikes until after election, then bang... Just coincidence I'm sure....

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 10:57pm

well, to be fair, as a lot of more moderate commentators have said...

a lot has changed since the tax cuts were passed... way back when; there was no inflation, no corona, no corona cash, only moderate debt, no energy crisis, and no war in ukraine...

no 'cost of living' crisis... for a lot of people anyway...

in the current climate the tax cuts stink!

much like the UK

but to a lesser extent - perhaps...

also much like the UK...

"But back to Chalmers’ opportunity. The tax cuts, released in the Morrison government’s 2018 budget, are one of the most expensive budget announcements ever made in Australia. They were announced with no modelling, no costing and no offsetting spending cuts. If they go ahead, their $243bn cost over the next 10 years alone is on par with the lifetime cost of our (just as poorly thought through) plan to buy nuclear submarines."

"...no modelling, no costing and no offsetting spending cuts..."

unbelievable really, in the modern context, for the...

"...most expensive budget announcements ever made in Australia..."

purely ideological wishful thinking

not even wishful thinking actually... more like sleight of hand...

andy-mac's picture
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac Thursday, 6 Oct 2022 at 11:08pm

"a lot has changed since the tax cuts were passed... way back when; there was no inflation, no corona, no corona cash, only moderate debt, no energy crisis, and no war in ukraine..."

Was always a bad and irresponsible idea and Policy as highlighted by Labor at the time. Morrison put them in with stage 1 and 2 as a single package to try and wedge Labor. If Labor did not pass the media would have gone nuts! BS such as not supporting battlers, quiet Australians or whatever term was being used at time. Highlights how partisan the media is in Australia. Joke.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 6:34am

Worth keeping in mind that a good political party won't always telegraph it's plans but often keep it's decisions close to their chest in order to, a) control the story, and b) extract concessions from the people/parties it needs to.

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 7:17am

Aligned with my list of ALP lying in their intent is the following piece. This is not hollow assertions and incorrect statements, this is fact.
From the eminently worthy Macrobusiness site:

+
Labor unloads international student “ponzi scheme”
By Unconventional Economist

The Albanese Government lit a fuse under the international student trade when it used last month’s Jobs & Skills Summit to expand work rights via:

Uncapping the number of hours international students can work while studying for another year; and
Extending the length of post-study work visas by two years.
The former Morrison Government’s uncapping of international student working hours last year has already delivered a sharp increase in student visa applications from India and Nepal. And Labor’s maintenance of this policy, alongside its two-year extension to post study work visas, will only turbo-charge international student arrivals even more.

Hilariously, the peak lobbyist for the international education industry, Phil Honeywood, has labelled the uncapping of work rights a “ponzi scheme”, since it will inevitably lead to a surge in non-genuine students coming to Australia to work so they can send money home:

Honeywood describes uncapped work rights as “a bit of a Ponzi scheme”, whereby foreigners who are ostensibly in Australia to study in reality work exhaustive hours “and send Australian dollars back home to mum’s and dad’s struggling business”. Nevertheless, the new government has resolved to extend uncapped working hours until the middle of next year.

Honeywood instead wants to trade one “ponzi scheme” for another by offering easier permanent residency for international students:

Honeywood… instead advocates migration-related incentives, backed at both federal and state government levels to dissipate the “political pain”…

Honeywood also advocates a doubling of the five points available to graduates who have completed “professional year programmes”…

International education is the ultimate “ponzi scheme” since it involves higher education providers and policy makers continually gutting entry standards and extending migration and work incentives in order to increase student application numbers and revenue. Rampant cheating is ignored, as are the negative impacts on domestic students, the rental market, and young Australians competing for jobs.

Instead of operating a “ponzi scheme”, why not instead aim for a smaller intake of higher quality international students via:

Raising entry standards (particularly English-language proficiency);
Raising financial requirements needed to enter Australia; and
Removing the explicit link between studying, work rights and permanent residency.
These reforms would raise student quality, would lift export revenues per student, would improve wages and conditions in the labour market, and would reduce enrolment numbers to sensible and sustainable levels, in turn improving quality and the experience for local students and reducing population pressures.

Sadly, the Albanese Government has taken the opposite path by uncapping the number of hours an international student can work while studying for another year, while also extending post-study graduate work visas by two years.

Labor knows that if work rights and permanent residency were scaled back, the numbers of students arriving would plunge, alongside Labor’s Big Australia agenda.

So, get ready for a surge in low quality ‘students’ arriving in Australia for work rights and permanent residency, and the further degradation of our university system. The seeds are sown.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 7:24am

No, most of those are incorrect too.

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 7:32am

How so?

Seems like it’s yourself throwing out the assertions.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 7:53am

"Raising entry standards". They have been raised.

"Raising financial requirements needed to enter Australia" Idiotic in the face of our real estate crunch, also raises issues in education. Doing the very opposite and REDUCING financial requirements, offering a hand to the needy, costs more initially yet pays off in the long term. Many succesful real world examples, including here in Australia.

"Removing the explicit link between studying, work rights and permanent residency." Another dumb point, barely worth responding too. Makes it sound like study is the only link to migration when it clearly isn't. Also ignores that many occupations rely on migration (half of all doctors (GP, physicians etc) are born OS. This is clearly a structural problem we've brought on ourselves, but the only way to remedy it is to, at least in part, forge a link between study and migration.

You need to stop reading reactionary journalism. Maybe look up a journalist that keeps asking 'why?' rather than presuming they have all the answers.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 8:24am
AndyM wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
AndyM wrote:

Positive role model for who?

Conservative white people who want someone to hide behind so they (hopefully) don't get labelled as racist?

A positive role model for Indigenous people, she empowers indigenous people because she calls them to take ownership of their issues and bring change from within (the only place change can come from) and teaches and shows them by example what can be achieved and not by some city folk with no understanding of the issues ala Lidia but from an Indigenous girl from central Australia one that has been in their shoes and suffered domestic violence and seen her family affected by violence (even murders)

As you know Jacinta's focus is on indigenous women and families in remote communities which goes back to the influence of her mother who has always gone against the grain and fought back against her mob at 13 years old when she was to be set up with an arranged marriage, while she escaped that she still ended up pregnant at 14 and almost killed by an abusive indigenous partner, but she set out to get herself educated and then became involved in politics and other things like Indigenous Affairs Advisory Council.

So obviously Bess was the positive strong role model for Jacinta who now takes that baton and is a strong positive role models for indigenous people especially indigenous women in remote community's trying to (or brave enough) to escape abusive relationships.

Yeah sure many indigenous people also dont like what she has to say because she challenges them to change and take ownership of their issues(especially men), obviously that's a much harder road than the easy road of accepting the narrative that all your issues are due to others or a past beyond you and any change needs to come from others or government rather than yourself or your community, adopting that view and position is going down an easy road but obviously a road to nowhere.

In regard to your negative comment about white conservatives, obviously these types of comments just come from a place of ignorance and lack of understanding on who Jacinta is or is about, i recommend listing to one or two more recent podcast on Spotify from her and you might be surprised on her views and what she is about.

As far as I can work out she's anything but a role model for a huge number of indigenous people, including the 7000+ who signed a petition titled "As an Aboriginal Person Jacinta and Bess Price DO NOT represent me or speak on my behalf".
And I strongly doubt that Price is a role model for the thousands of local traditional owners, Indigenous community-based organisations and Indigenous leaders who sat through a dozen deliberative dialogues to thrash out the Uluru Statement.
Jacinta Price rubs shoulders with Tony Abbott, Alan Jones and Malcolm Roberts, - she is hanging out with bigots and racists.
So she is at the very least a useful stooge to these white conservatives.
My comments are not coming from a place of ignorance, it's very clear who she does and doesn't represent in reality.

Argh here we go you have quickly gone from role model to the already old line of

"But she doesn't represent most indigenous people or the majority of people in her community."

Show me one leader in any community that represents all people in one community, or one ethnic group all agree with.

Be it local council, state or federal, leaders none represent everyone or even close.

Even Albo only got 30% of the vote in Australia, and I'm sure a huge percentage of those people voted based on either just wanting change or over Scomo, if you asked them now if Albo represented them they would so no way, and say i had to vote for someone, i just voted for the lesser of two evils or something similar.

Blowin is a classic example of that voter whom is a very common voter type.

Anyway haters always going to hate, but sorry you do come from a complete place of ignorance, you may not like Jacinta because she is a conservative but she is someone fighting real issues and real change and self ownership and looking for positive change rather than endless tokenism.

Anyway it doesn't matter what you think, she is being talked about, she is getting exposure and more and more support and hopefully in time will bring a change of narrative and approach.

BTW. She wouldn't have the profile she has without the support of conservative media, of course she is going to attend conservative conferences and rub shoulders with conservatives (many i also dont like or agree with) thats life.

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 8:23am

I'm getting a little concerned about myself and my mental health due to agreeing with a highly worthy macrobusiness article...

The article is largely correct and highlights many of the problems with higher education in Australia.

Over the past few decades both sides of government are trying to reduce funding, privatise the sector, and move it towards a private sector-like, commercial, profit driven, user pays, US tiered system.

The natural consequences of this is twofold (well it's more than that but this is the two points I always think about).

First, and not mentioned in the macrobusiness article, is that this US-style system reinforces inequality in society by creating an expensive, high quality, elite tier of university education that is financially and culturally inaccessible to most of society.

The other problem is what the macrobusiness article mentions. Universities are forced to measures such as competing in the international student market in order to remain profitable. A number of things then happen (well, are currently happening):

- lower English language standards in international students

- courses are watered down to cater for less prepared international students, and particularly due to poor command of English and to what the articles says of students spending most of their time working (low paying jobs) instead of studying

- a cut throat, publish or perish research culture focused on publishing massive quantities of completely junk "research" in order to compete in the global university rankings, leading to research fabrication, manipulation and fraud, horrible exploitation of lower ranked researchers including sexual misconduct, neglect of teaching quality

- sexual misconduct towards vulnerable international students

- massive rise of cheating by international students due to poor command of English, students working instead of studying, poor backgrounds of international students from developing countries, which in particular leads to the arising of a massive assignment writing and exam cheating industry

- a significant proportion of international students only coming here to study in order to get permanent residency

- and so on, too many problems to list all of...

I would suggest listening to what say Dr Richard Denniss said in the above really good article, things like:

Dr Richard Denniss wrote:

People in rich countries such as Norway, Denmark, Finland and Sweden take for granted that they can have nice things like free childcare and university degrees. Their quality public schools and health systems are such that private schools and private health insurance are almost non-existent. And while it may seem strange for Australians to hear, having all those nice things hasn’t hurt their economies – in fact, it has helped them.

And then there’s innovation, the real source of economic growth, which comes from having a highly educated population, a great research culture in public universities and significant public investment in R&D.

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 8:41am

Yep. The Macrobusiness article is spot on and Stu is well wide of the mark. Bringing in tens of thousands of fake students is going to help our “Real estate crunch”?

What?

How’s that supposed to work? Tens of thousands of extra people competing for non-existent rentals ? Lol. Sounds like a great outcome. ( sarcasm)

As for this: “ "Removing the explicit link between studying, work rights and permanent residency." Another dumb point, barely worth responding too. Makes it sound like study is the only link to migration when it clearly isn't. ”

Who said that fake education is the only link to migration into Australia? Fake education may not be all of the migration problem but it certainly constitutes a large conduit. There’s no debate that the education system has been designed to be exploited as a back door into work rights and residency. This then falls in behind the fact that the mass immigration scheme is a huge NET LOSS for Australia in virtually every issue of importance.

And the assertion that allowing in millions of fake education economic migrant country-shoppers over a decade is unquestionable because a few thousand of them might become doctors….please. The whole point of the article is to raise educational requirements so that the potential doctors still arrive whilst the 99% who run full time Uber services are not.

BTW….I don’t agree with everything Macrobusiness says but I certainly agree when the things they say are indisputable fact.

You got anything else to support your assertions that the ALP are doing the right thing instead of promoting hollow propaganda, as they further our descent into the neoliberal rabbit hole?

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 8:44am

GSCO…why would you need to declare hesitancy in agreeing with Macrobusiness? They’re not always right but they are on the right path for many important issues and they provide a much needed contradictory foil to the almost unchallenged bleating of the vested interest mouthpieces at the MSM.

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 8:55am
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:

You got anything else to support your assertions that the ALP are doing the right thing instead of promoting hollow propaganda, as they further our descent into the neoliberal rabbit hole?

If that is aimed at me then actually so far I don't see anything being improved by the Labor party relating to higher education in Australia.

Actually I'm getting more and more disillusioned by the day with the Labor party.

It seems that the Labor party I had in mind when I voted for them this time is the one from the 80s and 90s...

Unfortunately the current Labor party in power is just all a left progressive woke façade and charade so far, all caught up in the culture wars with no substance.

Again, Satyajit Das says it all:

Satyajit Das wrote:

The complex challenges and lack of easy solutions underlies the rising culture wars in Western democracies. Worthy causes -- liberty, gender, sexuality, history, indigenous rights, multi-culturalism -- are largely matters of belief and values. Positions are fundamentally irreconcilable but politically useful in manipulating a fissiparous electorate.

Leaders themselves are an uninspiring lot, long on cunning and media savvy but little else. Constant media scrutiny of private lives and better financial rewards on offer elsewhere mean politics attracts in the main uniquely unqualified aspirants whose highest potential is mediocrity.

Politics is now "panem et circenses" (bread and circuses) as Juvenal wrote in Satire X. The focus is superficial appeasement in form of glib announcements which will remain largely unimplemented. The objective is to distract and divert while maintaining electability.

Re macrobusines, I'm just taking the piss out of myself due to originally panning them when I first started writing in these forums...

Of course they have lots of valid points and call a spade a spade.

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 8:59am

GSCO…that was aimed at Stu.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 9:06am

Who says fruit picking doesn't pay well?

Good cherries..?

The tertiary sector is a shambles, I'm not arguing otherwise. What I'm saying is you, and that article, attack all the wrong points.

For starters, you ask how does bringing cashed up foreigners into Australia aid the credit crunch?

Erm....by pricing out Australian-born buyers.

When we stipulate that migrants must have X amount of money or assets then we decrease the odds that those born here and saving for first home ownership are in the hunt. Even worse when migrants are exchanging from strong currencies.

I also didn't say student migration is "unquestionable", just that you're attacking effects not causes, branches not roots, easy answers over hard. Unfortunately decades of neglect, wilful or otherwise, cant be remedied with a flick of the switch.

This cuts more to the heart of your gripes: that Labor should let the structural issues remedy themselves. Of course that means jobs are lost, the economy vulnerable to recession, and it's simply irresponsible governance. Labor would be tossed out at the next election. Then it would be Liberals in again and business as usual.

That is the unavoidable reality.

And that's something you and Macrobusiness aren't in the business of documenting.

Post up a plan that, doesn't just sound good, but most importantly would survive a vote of the Australian people.

Because anything else you or Macrobusiness say is piss and wind.

flollo's picture
flollo's picture
flollo Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 9:18am
gsco wrote:

I'm getting a little concerned about myself and my mental health due to agreeing with a highly worthy macrobusiness article...

The article is largely correct and highlights many of the problems with higher education in Australia.

What is the actual strategy for higher education in Australia? Does anyone have one? All sides of politics just have some high-level slogan like 'we'll make the education better, bla, bla'. But that's a wishlist, not a goal. When I look at the amount of money my wife and I spent on our uni degrees it makes me sick. It honestly does. Some nice words in those articles about having free education but is anyone even proposing that? I am more than happy to give them even more tax money if they commit to the goal of making education free so my kids don't have to go through what I had to go through. But on the other hand, looking at the current system, I don't trust them with a single cent, and I'll do whatever it takes to minimise my tax liability.

These are very conflicting feelings and I guess trust is a serious issue. How do you trust them when they give more money to private schools than public ones? I get it, there were some interests that got us into this situation but is there seriously no one working on dismantling this nonsense? How much of the money I pay in taxes will end up in private schools that I will never use? What is enough?

At the end of the day, life is a series of deals one makes. A deal with your employer, a deal with your partner, a deal with yourself and what you want to achieve in life, a deal with the government...And one needs to feel confident that these deals will pay off otherwise the whole thing will turn to shit.

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 9:26am

I think the basic issue between our points of view is that you seem to believe that the ALP, whilst finally in power, should not rock the boat to any great degree and to continue to kick the can of the inevitable hard economic landing ever further down the road.

There’s no getting around the ugliness that decades of neoliberalism-from both parties- has cast into the stone of Australia’s future. The sooner we take our medicine and experience the necessary recession, the better it is for our country. Of course there will be people who suffer.

But there’s people who are suffering now because we haven’t popped the housing bubble / endless growth / Big Australia Ponzi . And the numbers of people suffering now include everyone with ridiculous mortgage debt , those with insecure employment, those who don’t relish watching the Australian environment turned into a ground zero for destruction and those who are sick of waiting 36 hours in accident and emergency, those who are sick of watching the sun being hidden behind endless high rise construction and those who know a future of 50million Australians is an inestimably large downgrade of everything good in Australia.

The ALP , with their ceaseless and seamless expansion of neoliberalism is not making things better by enlarging the current problems and no mealy mouthed rationalising changes that simple fact.

BTW….I don’t actually agree with the higher cost of degrees for international students beyond the fact that it might cull the sheer volume of “students”. Apart from that your premise doesn’t hold much water when it’s common for 6 poor students to rent a house off a property speculator who outbids young Australians anyway. The property speculator would not have a viable business model if denied the tens of thousands of penniless fake students.

Here’s how it works : House around Sydney get more expensive because, beyond immigrants creating direct demand, we get developers hoovering up the land and pushing up prices in order to densify so as to accommodate the hundreds of thousands- millions! - of fake students.

This even has a knock on effect in regional areas as Sydneysiders flee the Sydney high density fake student shithole.

Australia experiences a net loss because of this situation . ALP is expanding and exacerbating this situation. Therefore it is undeniable that Australia is much worse off due to the actions of the ALP irrespective of the ALP’s lying motherhood statements.

Democracy in Australia is a sham.

flollo's picture
flollo's picture
flollo Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 9:28am

And these horrible assumptions about migrants coming here to 'pick fruit'. Unbelievable, some of the best talents we have in this country came through migrant pathways. Everyone wants Australia to solve problems on a global scale, and be a respected leader in international circles...Well, guess what, fixing global-scale problems requires global-scale talent. It's our strength to attract these people in, not a bloody weakness. This country has a serious issue with protectionism. It's detrimental.

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 9:36am
flollo wrote:
gsco wrote:

I'm getting a little concerned about myself and my mental health due to agreeing with a highly worthy macrobusiness article...

The article is largely correct and highlights many of the problems with higher education in Australia.

What is the actual strategy for higher education in Australia? Does anyone have one? All sides of politics just have some high-level slogan like 'we'll make the education better, bla, bla'. But that's a wishlist, not a goal. When I look at the amount of money my wife and I spent on our uni degrees it makes me sick. It honestly does. Some nice words in those articles about having free education but is anyone even proposing that? I am more than happy to give them even more tax money if they commit to the goal of making education free so my kids don't have to go through what I had to go through. But on the other hand, looking at the current system, I don't trust them with a single cent, and I'll do whatever it takes to minimise my tax liability.

These are very conflicting feelings and I guess trust is a serious issue. How do you trust them when they give more money to private schools than public ones? I get it, there were some interests that got us into this situation but is there seriously no one working on dismantling this nonsense? How much of the money I pay in taxes will end up in private schools that I will never use? What is enough?

At the end of the day, life is a series of deals one makes. A deal with your employer, a deal with your partner, a deal with yourself and what you want to achieve in life, a deal with the government...And one needs to feel confident that these deals will pay off otherwise the whole thing will turn to shit.

Good comment.

And the answer is ….the ALP, long cast as the solution to the LNP’s destructive motives - are no answer and no solution at all. They make the problem worse. The ALP enlarges and entrenches the problem whilst bleating about turning things around.

That’s their whole wolf in sheep’s clothing act.

Then you get apologists saying :
“Oh sure…the ALP are fucking everything they touch but…..LNP”
Or
“ ALP may be fucking everything they touch but it’s only been six months and…LNP”
Or
“”Sure , ALP may be fucking everything they touch but if they do their job, the one thing they were elected to do, and attempt to sort out the problems, then they might not get re-elected in 3 1/2 years time.”

I don’t get it?

When is it you think the ALP will finally stop fucking you over and act the way you fantasise they’re going to act ? You sound like a bunch of abused spouses.

“Oh, Albo might’ve just hit turbo for fucking over the environment, work conditions, living standards and everything we hold dear but….he’s sorry and he is trying to get better and he promised that next time he’ll do his best to not fuck us over ….again. “

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 9:42am
flollo wrote:

And these horrible assumptions about migrants coming here to 'pick fruit'. Unbelievable, some of the best talents we have in this country came through migrant pathways. Everyone wants Australia to solve problems on a global scale, and be a respected leader in international circles...Well, guess what, fixing global-scale problems requires global-scale talent. It's our strength to attract these people in, not a bloody weakness. This country has a serious issue with protectionism. It's detrimental.

“This country has a serious issue with protectionism. It’s detrimental “

Lol.. cool story, bro.

The most successful economy on the planet over the past fifty years is also the one which has made protectionism and mercantilism an art form. Whilst the further the West opens up their borders and economies, the more hollowed out and pulverised their economies and living standards get. Let’s pretend not to see that hey!

No one is saying that immigration isn’t valuable and essential and beneficial. But there is diminishing returns beyond a certain volume of imported humans and Australia has exceeded that volume by an immense figure.

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 9:57am
flollo wrote:

What is the actual strategy for higher education in Australia? Does anyone have one?

Regardless of the lip service of governments, the trajectory of the sector answers that question.

What they're trying to do to both health and education in Australia is move it towards the US models of what can be described as a bizarre, dysfunctional public-private mixes of service provision - low quality, neglected, cheap public provision and high quality, elite, expensive private provision.

(Actually the US health system is so messed up to the point of some private insurance providers are also the medical and hospital providers, so by paying health insurance to them you are actually locked into only being able to access their health services. But these providers know this - that one is trapped by them - and the level of service is poor due to the barriers to changing providers.)

The Aus health and education systems are being encouraged to move in this US public-private mix direction due to funding for the public sector being squeezed and its mix/target being modified to encourage it, by as you said the funding and subsidisation of private providers, and the allowed stagnation and reduction in the quality of the public sectors.

Hence, the quality of the public systems are being allowed to degrade and the economic conditions (including from subsidies) are being created to encourage the profitability and setting up of private providers.

Make no mistake, there's lots of money to be made here and both sides of politics want in on it.

flollo's picture
flollo's picture
flollo Friday, 7 Oct 2022 at 10:09am

@DSDS

Some of these concerns are valid. But I'm not finding the associated stigmatisation attractive. It doesn't help the cause. Also, our position to attract talent got a lot worse in the last 2-3 years. I was in Europe in July and everyone was ridiculing me with 'They finally let you out of the prison..'. Initially, these comments come as a joke but they are followed by a more serious discussion about us imprisoning people during covid. I unsuccessfully tried to explain that it wasn't as bad as the media made it. Nothing worked. I had several friends who wanted to come for a visit for a while but everyone's given up. No one wants to touch it. We need to now fix this perception. So it would be good if we didn't create more hostility.