Australia - you're standing in it

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Sheepdog started the topic in Friday, 18 Sep 2020 at 11:51am

The "I can't believe it's not politics" thread.

stunet's picture
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stunet Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 8:15am

Seriously ID....I've been holding back, but for crying out loud, mate, can you fuck that shit off?

The Indig folk I know, also know that statement to be true but the reality is more complex than you dolts realise. The main thread of this conversation was changing the date to be one all Australians - including Aboriginals - can celebate, but it's pretty fucking hard when that same date signifies the end of your ancestors heritage - even if good ultimately came from it.

As Steve said, it's a kick in the teeth. You appear unable, or maybe unwilling, to recognise that.

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stunet Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 8:19am

Also the irony of ID, D-Rex and co inferring Aboriginals should let bygones be bygones, to look forward not backwards etc... when every second post of their's is lamenting how Australia is changing.

Self-awareness of the conservatives...

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 8:51am

Sorry Stu but i think you are pretty naive to think most indigenous people give two shits about the day either way, those truly disadvantaged have much bigger issues to deal with, any indigenous person worried about some date, well good on them because they are obviously doing pretty well in life.

Polls among indigenous people on the issue even show not all indigenous people want a date change, a poll i saw a while back showed 60% of indigenous people support a date change, yeah 60% is majority but its not the high figure you might expect, sorry i cant find the poll.

But here is an article from a source you people will trust.

"But among Aboriginal Australians and people from the Torres Strait Islands, less than a quarter (23%) felt positive about Australia Day and 31% felt negative about it. A further 30% said they had mixed feelings about Australia Day.

When participants were invited to associate three words with Australia Day, Australians polled chose barbecue, celebration and holiday. But, for Indigenous Australians, the three most chosen words were invasion, survival and murder.

Asked about whether the date of Australia Day should change, 54% of Indigenous Australians polled were in favour of a change compared with a total of 15% of total Australians polled."

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jan/26/most-indigenous-a...

Even with those indigenous people that support a date change, that does not mean they have much passion for the issue, they could even well be just saying what others expect them to say.

Reality is its a trivial issue to most indigenous people its more important to woke white folk like you guys.

Not to mention a date change won't keep people happy, as we have seen in much media some want the day gone altogether and once a date change is made same people(99.9% white folk) will be out on the streets calling for the day to be scraped.

Then what?

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brutus Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 8:46am

Indo that is such an ignorant statement , mind blowing!

firstly the Stone Age ....if you really think that , you have little or no understanding of Aboriginal culture , and it looks like that's why only you know one side of the story , the colonial one.
Just like Dark Emu , where you hadn't read it but formed an opinion based on experts like Bolt and a right wing agenda of retaining Australia's colonial history , and ignoring anything that threatens the white narrative on how great it was for Aboriginal culture to receive white mans trinkets , at the cost of the lands being taken , whole settlements massacred , genocide in trying to turn them into whitefellas ....stolen generation.

As more real, Australians learn about our history , good and bad , and as History is always being rewritten as new facts come to light , using new technologies etc....there is an amazing story being told of the Indigenous Australians who developed a social system we could all learn from today....Community /Family /Arts /stewardship of the land ......so according to you and D-rex....because whiteman gave them technology , in your world that is more important , getting rich playing with tech toys , to where there is now a Global crisis and people are confused and angry....because life/future now looks pretty confusing.......Climate Crisis/Pandemic/Economic........it's all failing now before our eyes.......decadence has always been part of Western Society , and History shows every civilization in History has failed/collapsed........except this incredible amazing Australian Culture that has out lasted every civilization on earth that you want to ignore because you think from your perspective only and what your materialistic ideology is .........

when you look at it from an all encompassing view.....both black and white , ignoring Aboriginal Culture......and claiming they have never had it better , is where racism/lack of self respect/ colonial culture born out of ignorance in only accepting white history......and as can be seen now there is a movement to address the inequalities, acceptance and intergration of Aboriginal culture as the foundation of who what an Australian is , for future generations!

Sadly there is a part of society that rejects the above and reconciliation is just a word, as was sorry for the Stolen Generation ........really sad!

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stunet Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 8:54am

Woke? Naive? 

Better than thick as two planks I guess:

Says ID:

"you are pretty naive to think most indigenous people give two shits about the day either way"

Says ID two seconds later:

"a poll i saw a while back showed 60% of indigenous people support a date change"

And then you backed it up with another poll also proving "most" indigenuous folk gave two shits about it.

Seriously mate, give it up. You can't keep abreast of your own line of thinking, let alone others.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 8:54am

@ Brutus

Although the statement is factually correct as even Stu admits, I do agree D-rex statement was blunt and not needed in the conversation.

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goofyfoot Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 8:56am

Crikey you can see where this thread is heading...
This is just an an observation more than anything, Indo I’ve noticed you only comment on the forums usually unrelated to surfing. Your name never appears in the comments section that relates to surfing. Like I said just an observation.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 8:58am

54-60% is not a huge majority Stu, im sure if you had never read this polls before you would have been expecting 80-90%

And like i said even those 54-60% doesnt mean they have much passion for the issue, and like i said many could really not care either way, but feel like they have to answer in a certain manner.

Anyway ive got to go do some work.

Sounds like you need to have a coffee or a surf.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:02am

@ Goofy foot

Actually that is not true at all, but there is countless other people here that is true for though.

Go through the threads and you will find me talking boards, fins, waves, indo, then other things like music... only just two days ago i shared that Tom curren upcoming video, i also often comment under the surfing articles.

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Blowin Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:27am

Indo .....The first sentence is unequivocally factual. Indigenous Australians literally did live a Stone Age existence until Europeans arrived. What is not objective is the derogatory intonation placed on the style of living a Stone Age existence.

I’ve been ruminating a lot on this lately. Time spent in solitude and amongst nature with nothing but the thoughts in my head and the unblemished wildness around me. It’s has me thinking hard about how it would be to live in a world different from the one we know.

A world with limited medical assistance and a world with virtually untrammelled freedom. A world of less opportunity for multitudinous modes of entertainment and exotic sources of knowledge but a world of an exponentially more meaningful understanding of our immediate environment. A world which may mean a shorter life in some cases but a life oftentimes less burdened by manufactured complication.

D Rex is not wrong with his assessment that things would be different but he is wrong to definitively state that life is so much better under a capitalist society than a subsistence or Hunter / gatherer society.

I realise that many people I love would not be alive if we lived as semi nomadic hunters and gatherers . I also realise that many people I love would not feel that their lives are often a tortuous uphill battle against an artificially imposed order they will never surmount and can only ever exist around.

I accept that melancholy, murder , hatred , rape , loneliness , longing and envy are eternal human conditions which remain present irrespective of the mode of survival. I refuse to accept that a capitalist society is irrefutably a net positive step in human evolution . I likewise also refuse to accept the fetishisation and the mindlessness of rendering all notion of pre capitalist humanity as a utopian fantasy free of the intrinsic shortcomings of men and women.

What D Rex also fails to account for is the long and tragic years of trauma and catastrophe inflicted upon indigenous Australians between the arrival of Cook and a young blackfella kid playing on a surfboard between sessions on his computer game. Trauma and catastrophe which are inherently the result of capitalist society being involuntary imposed on their existence.

And the fact that the capitalist society was inflicted with the Indigenous Australian’s starting point being below the bottom of the social hierarchy. Disenfranchised, dispossessed , robbed and murdered long before they could ever begin to start learning to compete in a capitalist society.

The pendulum shift from oppression to rehabilitation of the collective self esteem of indigenous Australia has been a long , long time coming. The resurgence of self belief and self assertion by the indigenous Australian community must be expected to drift into the sometimes confrontational and combative due to the power of momentum. It’s to be expected that some Indigenous Australians who have suffered generations of indignation and oppression would find it hard to temper resentment towards a society they were never expected or allowed to join until quite recently.

Unfortunately this combative and confrontational aspect of cultural resurgence can also tend towards having an unintended negative affect for the cause and I think this inflammation of debate leads to unproductive disunity within our society and at the end of the day there is no division - and should be no division- between those Australians who call themselves indigenous and all other Australians within Australian society. . I don’t think some indigenous Australians have a problem with this as why would they feel sympathy for those they equate to be murders their families and stolen their land ?

PS - I’ve just used the term “ capitalist “ as an term to encompass all modern lifestyles which have overtaken from the subsistence or Hunter / gather mode of existence. The term “ Western lifestyle “ is not appropriate or correct amd is itself often used in a derogatory fashion.

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Hiccups Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:33am

...

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Fraser G Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:06am

Mental...

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brutus Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:33am

Indo....yes it is good to discuss , D-Rex and your agreement with his opinion ....

the fact is that anyone who just thinks Australia's history started with the Arrival of Cook...is just plain ignorant, and which is huge part of the problems facing Australia today.
On one hand you have people like D-rex and yourself only accepting colonial/materialistic values in todays society and just brush off any thought of educating yourselves and dig a bit deeper!

The polls you use are useless as they only take a sampling of Aboriginal people....so the polls do not really represent anything than people just needing some kind of numbers to justify their existence.

when you say"But its not my culture, as an non indigenous Aussie i have little tradition and culture and the little i do have a minority want to destroy".....we don't want to destroy your non-indigenous culture , we want to enhance your culture with Aboriginal culture as the basis for being an Australian.....there should no fear on any side , but an acceptance of who we are ...a multicultural society , with the foundation of being an Australian..acceptance and respect for our First Culture...

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shoredump Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:27am

Sign the [email protected]#king treaty, make it on January 27th* so that day is the holiday & a day we celebrate coming together, the unity of one people moving forward together. The celebration begins with quiet reflection and acknowledgement of everything that has passed, on the 26th.

*any day would do, May-eight for example would be gold for our international reputation and tourism

https://australianstogether.org.au/discover/the-wound/the-lack-of-treaty/

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brutus Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:27am

Blowin...I usually don't answer you because of you racist rants.....I'll make this simple..

Stone Age......bulllshit.....there was a thriving culture in Australia before your ancestors found out how to create fire!

The convicts that were sent here in the first fleet , broke the law , and were sentenced to be to sent Australia , they were criminals.....

If you don't like history , but still honor Anzac or Australia day, you are a Hypocrite...

If you cannot understand the need for History as part of Australias continuing evolution into a cosmopolitan society , inclusive of Chinese/Vietnamese/Middle Eastern/European etc......well you are quickly becoming a a relic of a bygone era......

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evosurfer Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:30am

Hey guess what im going on a weekend surf trip with my aboriginal friend and his brother up the coast on the weekend. O the irony.

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I focus Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:30am

The date for Australia day is a relic of the past along with the flag, Queen as head of state and Margret Court.

Modern Australia is no longer represented by those things its far bigger and more inclusive, the trend is only in one direction as conservatives howl at the moon for ideas that never were.

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Blowin Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:40am

Brutus - Stoneage is a term defining the technological advancement of a society. If a society did not reach the technological stage of manufacturing metals then it is defined as Stone Age.

This is not a slur .

If you have personal issue with facts being used in this discussion then perhaps this discussion isn’t the place for you ?

PS Thanks for not engaging with me cause I’m “ racist “ . It just means one less dumb cnt I’ve got to deal with . Appreciated bloke !

Here you go bloke . Archaeology for kids ( and dumb cnts ) :

https://archaeology.mrdonn.org/stone_bronze_ironage.html

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stunet Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:49am

A short story from a woke white Australian...

Probably delete it shortly too.

Like many I enjoy celebrating Australia Day, and for all the same reasons as you - it's a bloody good country! However, every Oz Day I look up the hill in our street and see my neighbours house all closed up. They're home but they don't come out. Pete's a Dunghutti man, champion fella but also badly scarred by decades of systemic racism - some of his sisters were stolen by government - and also by pig ignorant racism from the man on the street.

Pete's a community guy, but he stays inside on Oz Day and I can't blame him.

However, this Oz Day was different. Pete invited us and one or two others familes down to the old Sandon Point Tent Embassy, which he founded, administered, and now maintains. "Sure," we said, "We'll be there." Not knowing what to expect.

But when we rocked up there was no "black armband" haranguing from Pete. We swam at Macauleys, had a barbie under a tent, swam some more, and then Pete told the kids the story of the tent embassy. How it was placed here after 'Kuradji Man' was uncovered nearby in 1998. A 6,000-year old skeleton buried with his artefacts, the presence of which signified his standing in the community. It's Australia's third-most important Aboriginal discovery after Mungo Man and Woman and right here at home. It's not quite a T-Rex skeleton but still impressive to kids who dig dinosaurs and fossils.

After the kiddy story I asked Pete more about the history:

Further skeletons were found, plus many other implements and tools and the Aboriginal Land Council tried to get a stay on the coming Sandon Point housing development. At just one housing lot, archaeologists found 600 artefacts and implements. People protested but the houses were built anyway, the bulldozers dug the bones and tools away then the ground was covered with concrete. Around the same time the Tent Embassy was burnt down three times. After the first effort they got forensics in who found accelerants. They didn't bother calling forensics for the others arson attempts.

The resting place of Kuradji Man and one or two other skeletons remain near the embassy and I asked Pete about maybe treating this place similar to a whitefella cemetery. However, they can't because if they show exactly where Kuradji Man and the others are buried their graves would be dug up and plundered, as has happened at other Aboriginal sites.

I refuse Geoffery Blainey's dichotomy of Oz history, but it's hard not to take the black armband view of history when hearing these stories.

All that aside, and on a personal note I thought it was great that Pete came out on Australia Day and wanted to be surrounded by his community. It was huge, and it made my heart swell, but I also think it radically unfair that for him to join in on January 26th he has to manouver himself into a position of acceptance, rather than experience the let-your-hair-down joy the rest of us feel.

One last thing, and it's slightly off topic: Last year I received a distressing email from a sometime-commenter on here, who's Aboriginal though he's never identified as one on Swellnet. Old demons came out to haunt him after reading a misguided comment and that was something I was ashamed of. So to Indo, deadshit D'Rex and others, our free speech can have a cost - and most of the time we're not even aware of it.

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Blowin Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:54am

And while we are at it - can we please put to bed this notion that indigenous Australians were doing something magical , special or even different to the entire rest of the world for the 55,000 years before 5000BC ?

Lines like this : “ .....there was a thriving culture in Australia before your ancestors found out how to create fire!”.....should be pulled up as bullshit ASAP. Far too much fetishisation and fantastic bullshit flowing under the pretence of elevating Indigenous Australian society to the top of an imaginary hierarchy of cultural sanctimony. This bullshit is unnecessary and only serves to undermine the true beauties of indigenous Australian culture.

Every single person alive has ancestors dating back to the first single cell amoeba which heralded the start of life on Earth. Everyone’s ancestors existed in the symbiotic relationship with nature for about 4 billion years but which has somehow now come to mark a point of difference for those who walked around continental Australia instead of every other part of the globe.

PS If you are smart you will immediately realise there is nothing racist , derogatory, White supremacist blah blah blah about anything I’ve just said. The stupid fcks who believe otherwise should soon come forward and reveal their inability to comprehend.

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soggydog Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:56am

Having my morning coffee, can’t believe the action on here.
Indo determined to maintain his position as village idiot.
D Rex trying to out do Indo, doing a pretty good job but Indo has the long game covered.
Indo trying to convince us that although 60% is a majority, it’s not really a big majority. Hey dickhead, cut a cake into thirds. It’s an exercise that even a complete dolt like you should be able to see that two thirds is a substantial majority.
Carry on

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brutus Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 10:01am

Blowin , if you read my previous posts , I have already addressed the fact that Western Society became a power because of it's Technological advancements, but Australian Aboriginal Culture evolved on a social level and developed their Arts/community living /agriculture/aqua culture.....60000 years of social development and you just brush that aside as irrelevant...in Australia's history.
You have made plenty of racist statements here , which in your world are not , but in others very racist.......this just an observation and I am not judging you....in my world it's racist......
In you world you are a self proclaimed genius , and I am just a dumb cnt...fair enough.....how do you deal with Dumb Cnts?
Thankfully Australia is really trying at the moment , and succeeding in realizing that to be an Australian is to embrace all cultures with respect...the foundation of being an Australian , is recognizing our Aboriginal / Australian Forefathers and learn from the most socially advanced living culture on the planet!

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soggydog Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 10:04am

It’s unfortunate that your post was straight after Stu’s Blowin.

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Craig Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 10:05am

Great posts Brutus.

"we don't want to destroy your non-indigenous culture , we want to enhance your culture with Aboriginal culture as the basis for being an Australian.....there should no fear on any side , but an acceptance of who we are ...a multicultural society , with the foundation of being an Australian..acceptance and respect for our First Culture..."

Thanks

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suchas Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 10:18am

Serious question Brutus- how does your passion for religion fit in with 60000 years of Dreamtime/Aboriginal culture?

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brutus Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 10:24am

Hi Craig.....I have just spent the last couple of days talking to Koori mates/Elders etc.....there is no aggro from them but an inherent sadness because of their first hand stories/ experiences and how without respect and empathy for past issues......how do they proceed with their lives and culture......which is more important that any $'s....it's about moving forward with an open mind , to where we can all learn to be better people/Nation by learning about the positives from the Worlds longest living culture.....we will be much better off personally and certainly as a nation!

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 10:37am

Great question Suchas id also be interested in what aspects of indigenous culture he still practises or are important to him?

As the friends that i have that have indigenous bloodlines dont really seem to embrace or practise any indigenous culture.

BTW. Brutus i dont at all think Australias history started with captain cook or white fella, i use to have quite an interested in indigenous people/culture when young, probably because my auntie taught in indigenous communities in west NT (omagari spelling?) and told us story's and photos and got us books on the dreamtime etc

These days not so much im more interested in the progressive indigenous vews of people like jacinta price, anthony dillion, warren mundine those that cut through the bs and look on things with a fresh view.

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Supafreak Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 10:53am

In 1982 I stayed in the big cave at red bluff for 6 months mostly by myself, there was about 70 people in camp with only about 25 being surfers . We would fish and run down feral goats to eat . Once a fortnight it was off to Carnarvon to claim my dole cheque and by supplies and fill up water. I have often looked back and realised this was definitely one of the happiest times in my life . It wasn’t a Stone Age existence by any means but the simple things in life of surfing and gathering food kept me content and not wanting for anything ( maybe a woman ) Had my 21st in that cave and someone produced a old movie camera with screen and we watched footage of the early days of the bluff and also cactus . Take me back please.

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memo... Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 3:26pm

"Jeez, you're a simpleton, mate.

Dumbest posts daily."

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synchrodogcal Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 11:03am

meanwhile, don't cancel our free speech with your woke narratives you damn lefties

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/neo-nazis-go-bush-grampians-g...

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Hiccups Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 11:11am

Jesus

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AndyM Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 11:17am

Those fellas should just disappear, it'd raise Australia's IQ by a significant amount.

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brutus Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 11:41am

suchas and Indo " Serious question Brutus- how does your passion for religion fit in with 60000 years of Dreamtime/Aboriginal culture?"

I believe and have faith in God/Jesus....the debate about how long humans have been here and it what form is a debate between science and interpretations of the Bible.....to which I personally believe the creation of man was a long time ago, and longer than 6000 BC....
As far as what I see in aboriginal culture .......I see a connection between Jesus's teachings and where man ,without the technology developed a loving community culture .

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I focus Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 12:02pm

"In 1982 I stayed in the big cave at red bluff for 6 months"

We would have crossed paths Superfreak although by 82 it was getting really busy and I tended to do my own thing.

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GuySmiley Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 12:06pm

Stu,
Thanks, your story about Pete and your family's Australia Day with his mob was so good; it's amazing the friendship and warmth shown to us white fellas if we are open to it. What a great experience for your boys.

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Rabbits68 Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 12:50pm

@BlueDiamond - brilliant post on the previous page. Really well said. Your ability to articulate & express yourself (in general) calmly & with reason is refreshing, particularly when your often up against the usual suspects on here who are regularly doing their best to lower the tone. Keep it up mate.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 1:39pm

@ Brutus

I can see how you can fit the two together without an issue, i do see this with my wife and her family who are catholics but also very traditional in Javanese beliefs & superstations practising many aspects of ketjawen (her grandmother was 100% Ketjawen) and her mother is still strong in her beliefs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kejawen

So no real indigenous culture aspect that you practise or are important to you?

Bar the connection to the land, that many of us feel.

memo...'s picture
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memo... Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 3:27pm

"Those fellas should just disappear, it'd raise Australia's IQ by a significant amount."

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Blowin Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 3:54pm
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fitzroy-21 Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 3:53pm

I wouldn't mind betting memo.. is just another of the many accounts of facto.

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Blowin Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 4:07pm

The best of all.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 4:31pm

Probably his best account so far though...least poisonous.

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memo... Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 4:35pm

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brutus Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 5:06pm

Hi Indo, I like to think that I am learning everyday....but it's what I choose to learn.
I have lived as decadent a lifestyle as anyone ever has , been a millionaire and top of the Surfing world...empty feeling when you finally get there , has to more in life than being rich, famous and every toy you could want.....ist class flights everywhere , Limo's , big teams , big budget movies, never been sadder!

So that's why Christianity came into my life as I was lost and suicidal , long story!

What has always attracted me to indigenous culture is that I was treated poorly in Warrnambool at State School and High School, where I realized a couple of years later , racial vilification....as the years have gone on and I have interacted/lived with Hawaiians/Tahitians/Maoris......I became friends with a lot of Aboriginal people , then elders who surfed etc.....acceptance and a place of belonging and at last a peace that I was just a person that wasn't liked. .......the more I study/talk with my mates who are elders....what I see is the most amazing culture I have experienced or studied.....not a material one , and a lust for money and power......but one that is based around community /family .....it looks like I have secured a visit this winter to a community that is in the middle of Australia , they came out of the desert in 1984....and are virtually untouched by Western Pollution physical and mental.....have heard many incredible stories from a very dear friend who helps them.......they really don't get Western Values or how we exist in such competitive world......more to come

I would like to think I am a much better person now than I was ....and still evolving from the thug I once was!

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bluediamond Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 5:49pm

Cheers Rabs68. Appreciate it mate. Right back at ya!
There's a pretty healthy minded, respectable and knowledgeable crew on here which is epic and some genuine forward thinkers. Yew!

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Blowin Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 6:03pm

Best of luck Brutus. I sincerely hope you just get happy . It doesn’t come naturally to everyone all the time . It takes work , luck and good people ready to fight for you.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 7:08pm

Brutus, that would be an awesome experience, hope you are allowed to share a story here when you return.

Agree with what Blowin said too.

views from the cockpit's picture
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views from the ... Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:33pm

@ Supafreak and I Focus- did you know Bagger/ Bagwana from Vic?
Was Lumo from Anglesea on the scene?

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memo... Friday, 29 Jan 2021 at 2:06am

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Michael Bourne Friday, 29 Jan 2021 at 4:32pm

Hahaha, classic! That and the amigos!!!

And yeh, deluxe post back there bluediamond.