Climate Change

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blowfly started the topic in Wednesday, 1 Jul 2020 at 9:40am

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Hutchy 19's picture
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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 10:57am

BB- ", they will factor in the certainty of a rapidly deteriorating climate with more frequent and more intense heat waves, floods and storms, as well as rising sea levels, when making decisions. "

Fine , you can believe in fairytales .

They just stuffed up with the energy needs and have had to get provinces to ration energy , Did their long term planning plan this ?

They underestimated the effects of letting Evergrande implode . Another long term plan .

Just like "the collection of parasites, thieves and corporate mouth pieces posing as our government" they do make mistakes .

I agree with Blowin and that you are unable to be honest re China .

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:04am

Absolutely indifferent to your opinion of me Hutchy. But here's something you don't see every day.....common sense from.the high court!
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/sacked-climate-sceptic-loses-hig...

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:04am

Absolutely indifferent to your opinion of me Hutchy. But here's something you don't see every day.....common sense from.the high court!
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/sacked-climate-sceptic-loses-hig...

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adam12 Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:12am

"Dr Ridd’s battle for integrity in science will not end today. The IPA is pleased to announce that Dr Ridd will become a Fellow of the IPA to lead a new research program at the IPA entitled the Project for Real Science." executive director John Roskam said.
The IPA funded by Gina,,,,"Real Science"
What a fucken joke this country is.
Meanwhile Bolt having conniptions at Murdoch's News latest greenwash.

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:24am

Forgot to mention China's wonderful record planning for something extremely important in the long term .

Demographics ! How did their one child policy work out ? That's right , they recently changed it to a two child policy . That's right , they just changed it again to a have a no policy on children policy .

Impeccable long term planning .

Just like they will do with climate change .But they will have a policy of what they will tell us they will do and another policy for what they will do .

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 1:30pm

Yes how ridiculous to change your policy when the evidence changes! At least we can rely on the COALition never to do that! They wait until the opinion polls change (or for old Rupe the Rat to issue new orders.). Leadership? Ha ha ha.

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 1:38pm

BB- You should have said you change the policy when your previous policy was wrong .

What can possibly change with demographics that could,t be predicted ?

What could change with regard to energy requirements other than the weather ?

Why change the rules with Evergrande ( and all the tech industry ) when you are unable to predict the consequences ?

Please don't reply as your totally lame excuses are as poor as they are predictable .

China good planners , we are bad . Lets leave it there .

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 2:05pm

" What can possibly change with demographics that could,t be predicted ?"
Death rates, internal migration, labour force demand etc etc.
"China good planners , we are bad ."

Their advantage is their authoritarian system which we do not wish to follow. Our handicap is our moronic populist politics that seek to follow public opinion rather than lead and to elevate small issues for political advantage while ignoring the important ones.

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 2:24pm

BB - FFS - same bloody reply that was given a few posts ago . Stop wasting your time repeating yourself .

You cant admit the long term planning is fallible . I really get it !

Your love of their authoritarian system explains why you want Australia to follow suit . The big problem for your wishes is that most Australians HATE an authoritarian system . Australian want their government to have " moronic populist politics that seek to follow public opinion rather than lead " us up a garden path where we don't want to go . It is called democracy where we get to throw out a group the doesn't perform . It is called Freedom .

We wish people like you would go live in China and stop telling US what you think we should do .

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 2:19pm

Ah Hutchy, calm down mate and try to address what I actually said rather than what you wanted me to say.

"Their advantage is their authoritarian system which we do not wish to follow. "

That's what I said, note the use of WE, plural inclusive.

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Fliplid Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 2:26pm

hang on a sec, I'll just google "plural inclusive." Be back in a tic

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 2:40pm

Your views and arguments make clear that WE Australians don't hold the same views as YOU .

As I said we outnumber YOU and your mates . We think OUR system is better at managing our wants now and in the future . WE don't shout from the rafters that OUR system is moronic . We think it is the BEST and will shout it from the rafters . We think their system stinks and IS the biggest danger to world peace .

All you do is say how GREAT their authoritarian system is . Never any negatives . Grow up please . It is your type that an authoritarian system weeds out first remember .

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 3:11pm

"Our handicap is our moronic populist politics that seek to follow public opinion rather than lead and to elevate small issues for political advantage while ignoring the important ones."

So you don't understand what "populism" means. Your problem mate! Nothing I said implied any disrespect for our political system, only for those who fail to live up to it by following rather than leading. The current collection of rentiers, n'er do wells, and religio-maniacs maquerading as a government are a good example.

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Roker Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 3:23pm

Macron announcing big projects for green hydrogen and nuclear innovation - an all over green re-industrialisation of France that will lead to economic independence. With 2030 as a target for reducing carbon emissions. Some election politicking no doubt, but smells fairly sincere to me.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/macron-launches-47-billion-france-20...

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 4:10pm

So it only about the team again BB .

The Labor party letting the Greens get in their bed . Nothing to do with populism , just a desire to screw their own rank and file .

It might surprise you but to get elected a polly needs to be more popular than their opposition . Can lead to problems with long term planning as you have said .

We don't do dictators ( like Singapore did which was SO successful ) or Kings here in Oz . When you get a good one you always get a bad one in the future and are stuck with them .

Why don't you give me an answer to either building two de sal plants powered by nuclear energy or one new mega dam like the Thompson ? What do you think is best for our long term future and getting to our 2050 target . The time for a long term plan is well over due .

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AndyM Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 4:19pm

"Our handicap is our moronic populist politics"

Interesting that you brought that up, considering that populism spans the political spectrum.
This includes, for example, Pauline on the Right and Occupy Wall Street on the Left, both of these examples claiming to support the the common people in the face of "corrupt" economic or political elites.

Point being, beware the demagogue no matter what the stripe.

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 4:23pm

I am not a particular fan of the Greens. They do some good work in highlighting climate change and other environmental issues but they are not likely to achieve any significant degree of power anythime soon. For all their faults Labor have consistently had policies which would increase the equitable distribution of the nation's wealth, and within the limits imposed by various greedy sections of the electorate, reduce the rorting that Gittins highlighted in the link I provided before. If they are guilty of a degree of populism it is minimal compared to the "we don't lead, we follow" policy dictum of the COALition.

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 4:25pm

Andy, Occupy was on the street. Pauline is a Senator in the Australian parliament.

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Blowin Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 4:36pm

Labor…..taking the “U” out of labour since ‘92.

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 4:53pm
blindboy wrote:

Absolutely indifferent to your opinion of me Hutchy. But here's something you don't see every day.....common sense from.the high court!
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/sacked-climate-sceptic-loses-hig...

Having listened to many of Peter Ridd's interviews, this article seems intentionally misleading trying to paint Ridd as a climate denialist, in all the interviews ive listened too he has acknowledged Climate change being real and even a threat to the reef in the future, acidity levels etc

From everything ive seen his concerns are more around the accuracy of studies on the reef that are clearly being influenced by politics and money, studies that cant be replicated, problems with peer review process etc

This result isn't a win for anyone, it's just more confirmation of the bigger problems within universities that are being seen all around the world, basically they are now big business where money is king and corruption is rife.

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AndyM Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 4:55pm
blindboy wrote:

Andy, Occupy was on the street. Pauline is a Senator in the Australian parliament.

What are you saying, that Occupy was not political, or was not a political movement?

Both are examples of populism in action.

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 5:38pm

Andy, they were operating in different dimensions. After her election as an independent Hanson connected with political insiders connected to Tony Abbot and the Liberals and they organised One Nation with her as a puppet. So it was a right wing expoitation of populist (racist) sentiment aimed, as currently with the UAP, at collecting the votes of those the Libersls could not appeal to directly without alienating their core.

Occupy, to my knowledge, was never part of the formal political process. They were protesting at the greed of the 1% and the exploitation of workers. They were not so much populist as popular. That is rather than appeal to fear and loathing (like One Nation) they raised issues that had genuine popular support, as demonstrated by their continuing influence on BLM.

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 5:57pm

BB- You are the one that operates in a different dimension . Both physical and moral .

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 6:02pm

Thanks Hutchy.

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Roker Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 6:08pm

Outside of South America it's hard to come up with one modern left wing populist politician. Quite a few in Europe and elsewhere that would fit the right wing category.

Mélenchon in France looked like he was gaining some traction appealing to traditional left wing economics and opposing Le Pen, but seems to have faded, and never resorted to exploiting baser instincts. Ditto Bernie. And Varoufakis.

The absence of left wing demagogues is probably as good a proof as any of the primacy of neoliberalism and aspirational politics in the globalised liberal democracy.

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 6:18pm

Kneecapper, the court found that Ridd's academic protection did not extend to areas in which he lacked expertise, such as climate change and reef ecology. His history of denying, not climate change directly, but the seriousness of it, did him in.
Still got the shotgun at the ready for interlopers have you?

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Vic Local Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 6:27pm

"Dr Ridd’s battle for integrity in science will not end today. The IPA is pleased to announce that Dr Ridd will become a Fellow of the IPA to lead a new research program at the IPA entitled the Project for Real Science."
The IPA, where science goes to die.

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Vic Local Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 6:27pm

"Dr Ridd’s battle for integrity in science will not end today. The IPA is pleased to announce that Dr Ridd will become a Fellow of the IPA to lead a new research program at the IPA entitled the Project for Real Science."
The IPA, where science goes to die.

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Craig Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 6:49pm

"Demand for fossil fuels will peak by 2025 if countries meet their climate pledges, according to the latest World Energy Outlook 2021 from the International Energy Agency (IEA)."

A good read: https://www.carbonbrief.org/fossil-fuel-use-will-peak-by-2025-if-countri...

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Craig Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 6:54pm

This outlook would be great if it came to fruition as well (second graph)..

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 7:05pm

I hope those predictions work out Craig. There are hopeful signs but a long way to go.

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Craig Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 7:10pm

Me too, seems like there's a great momentum shift right now, even though we're a decade or two behind where we could have been.

Green shoots.

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Fliplid Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 7:21pm

Once the markets see an opportunity for a return then that is what makes the changes not so much government pledges

If Twiggy Forrests projects come to fruition then it will be a fairly hefty nail in the coffin for coal not only in Australia but overseas as well because he has been making the effort globally to establish the hydrogen generation industry in other countries. If it can be proved to work then hard to see why other countries wouldn’t get involved

And still our mob are laying out diversions.

‘With the Glasgow summit looming, Prime Minister Scott Morrison is yet to confirm if he will personally attend. 
Mr Joyce conceded that he "would be told" when Mr Morrison was overseas, given his standby role as Acting Prime Minister. 
But Mr Joyce would not give any hints. 
"I can either say 'I don't know and I'm telling the truth,' or I can say 'I don't know, because I can't tell you the truth'. So either way, you're going to get the answer: I don't know.”

At least he is honest about being dishonest

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 8:14pm
Craig wrote:

Me too, seems like there's a great momentum shift right now, even though we're a decade or two behind where we could have been.

Green shoots.

A decade or two ago the tech was only a fraction as good as it is today, tech and cost is one of the main drivers.

Anyway per captia Australia still leads the world in solar capacity and 4th per captia for wind generated energy, with the fastest renewable uptake rate in the world.

It would be interesting to know where we sit in regard to battery capacity, id expect per captia we might be in the lead there too???

Article from Feb 2021

"Australia leading world with record renewable take-up, new data finds

More than two million extra Australian homes were powered by new renewable energy generation last year as wind and solar projects hit record levels, official government data has found, despite the coronavirus-induced economic downturn.

The Clean Energy Regulator estimates a record 7 gigawatts of new renewable capacity was installed throughout Australia in 2020 off the back of record rooftop solar investment, which is 11 per cent above the previous record of 6.3 gigawatts installed in the previous year.

The renewables boom has helped Australia deploy new renewable energy 10 times faster per capita than the global average and four times faster per capita than Europe, China, Japan or the United States, the analysis found."

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australia-leading-world-with-rec...

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Craig Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 8:15pm
indo-dreaming wrote:

A decade or two ago the tech was only a fraction as good as it is today.

But we could have arrived where we are now quicker/earlier and hence, been even more advanced at this point don't you agree? We've wasted 10-20 years..

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 8:19pm

And people will live with the consequences of those delays not just for decades, but more probably for centuries, to come.

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seaslug Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 8:19pm

If there had been more willing, yes Craig.

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Supafreak Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 8:23pm

@craig , what’s going to happen with air travel ? And for shipping ?

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Fliplid Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 8:56pm

hydrogen fuel could be an option

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arcadia Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:07pm

With a half life in the atmosphere of 120 odd years, around 5% of the CO2 we're producing and have been producing will still be in the atmosphere in 500 years time. That's more than 15 generations that will have to clean up the shit we're producing. Criminally negligent doesn't begin to cover it.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 8:16am
Craig wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

A decade or two ago the tech was only a fraction as good as it is today.

But we could have arrived where we are now quicker/earlier and hence, been even more advanced at this point don't you agree? We've wasted 10-20 years..

I lived on Fraser Island about 05-07 and most of the houses had older solar systems with batteries(and diesel generators), the quality of those solar systems compared to today was huge, they were honestly close to useless and super expensive, if we had the same amount of panels on houses with those systems to what we have now the output wouldn't be anywhere near as great and peoples perception of solar would be based on those systems rather than todays tech.

And there is actually a disincentive for early adopters to upgrade panels, i was only recently being told by an old guy who was an early adopter who ideally would now like to upgrade his panels, but the problem is if he does he loses his great feedback rate, he said 60c, it's now something like 6c

If we are looking back with the beauty of hindsight the world and Australia would be far far better off if Nuclear hadn't been demonised and countries that were geographically stable like Australia had adopted Nuclear even if it was 20-30% of our total energy output we would have not only have cut emissions, but would now have a reliable base of carbon free energy to build on which would help deal with the storage issues, the more countries that had invested in Nuclear would have also increased investment in the tech aspect like safety and even possibly decreased building cost.

BTW. Im not saying nuclear now is the future as has cost issues, but if we are talking about should have's and could have's type scenarios.

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Blowin Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 8:20am

Anyone feel competent, confident and willing to explain the fundamentals of green hydrogen energy to a layman?

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blindboy Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 8:30am

You produce it by running a DC current through water so it is only as "green" as the source of the electricity.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 8:31am

And if produced by fossil fuels (close to pointless) its called Blue Hydrogen

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stunet Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 8:44am

@Blowin, Great explanation from a professor of engineering at Newy Uni on ABC 702 yesterday arvo.

Fucked if I can remember it all but she gave various outcomes to creating hydrogen energy from fossil fuels, or from renewables, using fresh water against salt, and what parts of society and industry could (or could not) benefit.

And Indo...c'mon mate, that's a daft answer. Hydrogen as an energy source has been used in smaller scale by industry for years, and it's been theorised for decades. Other sources and means have also been well known but have been waiting for application.

For all his faults, Twiggy Forrest has just blown open the fallacy of 'the unknown' and shown it to be government inertia, mainly owing to LNP kickbacks from fossil fuel companies.

When oh when will Oz halt the lobbying in Canberra?

From Abbott ("Climate change is crap") on down the LNP has stymied investment in R&D. Other countries have natural conditions that lean towards certain energy sources, but with abundant sun and land and coast, ours is hydrogen but with a govt hostile to anything that aint fossil fuel it's been too risky.

Funny how conservatives talk about humans responding to economic incentives, but ignore it when it suits.

Much like their interpretation of free speech I guess.

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Fliplid Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 8:49am

Self interest, sure but at least he is coming up with a solution. Also mentions the new ways of producing steel that are being researched overseas.

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carpetman Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 9:05am

1kWh of electricity in = 0.79kWh of hydrogen out.

That is the typical efficiency of an electrolszer. Then there are further efficiency losses through compression and storage. I think generally they say around 40-60% is what you would get through the process. So 1kWh electricity in = 0.6kWh hydrogen out.

So, if paying $0.25 for a kWh of power, you will be paying ~$0.41 for a kWh of hydrogen. Not including operating costs.
In comparison to diesel, 1L has approx. 10kWh, @ $1.50/L. So $0.15 for a kWh.

So power has to be renewable and has to be cheaper than it currently is.

Hydrogen has a high-energy mass density but very low volume-energy density. Due to the low energy density storage is difficult. Meaning probably not suitable for air travel.

Some people say it will be subbed in for natural gas but this doesn't really work due to the lower volume-energy.

Cars have been taken by batteries. Buses and trucks too. Which leaves shipping and other heavy haulage. We will see.

One theory regarding the extreme levels of interest and funding into hydrogen in Europe and Aus, even when the fundamentals don't currently stack up, is basically because we've missed the boat on batteries and need to try and add something to the future energy market otherwise we're going to miss out on capitalizing on the massive energy transition currently underway.

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Robwilliams Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 9:11am

thanks carpet

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blindboy Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 9:13am

Thanks for that carpetman I think the other issue is that reducing emissions will help moderate climate change, but will only set us up for the next environmental crisis unless we can also move away from the current consumerist culture in which resources still overwhelmingly take a one way trip to waste.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 9:25am
indo-dreaming wrote:

And if produced by fossil fuels (close to pointless) its called Blue Hydrogen

stunet wrote:

And Indo...c'mon mate, that's a daft answer. Hydrogen as an energy source has been used in smaller scale by industry for years, and it's been theorised for decades. Other sources and means have also been well known but have been waiting for application.
.

Did you miss read my comment????

I was just explaining to Blowin not all hydrogen is equal Green & Blue are different.

Green hydrogen produced from renewables = good no emissions, makes sense, even though there is an energy loss you have energy stored as a fuel that can be used in many different ways that energy stored in batteries or pumped hydro can't be or is more problematic for use in things like airline industry, shipping, industrial type industry etc

Blue hydrogen produced from fossil fuels= not that great, you still have emissions creating it, you lose energy creating it, possibly might as well just use a fossil fuel like gas to start with.

Surely you agree Green Hydrogen is the future but Blue Hydrogen is not?