Climate Change

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blowfly started the topic in Wednesday, 1 Jul 2020 at 9:40am

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 10 Oct 2021 at 5:24pm
GuySmiley wrote:

Jebus, am I the only one here with a good memory? ...... just another right agenda “discussion point” introduced, today, by hutchy and previously raised several times in the past by info and for what purpose?

Coincidence? Me thunks not, still on the positive side of things the village where these two have come from will be eternally grateful to SN .....

Im not sure what you are suggesting, but if you are suggesting im Hutchy that at least two others have implied, then sorry you are wrong, i dont have that much spare time and i dont share all his views, if anyone think we are one person and has an idea on how to prove we aren't, im happy to prove that we are seperate individuals and i have no connection to him.

In regard to this discussion, i dont know who brought it up but it wasn't me and although im happy too share my view, its really not a topic i have much interest or passion in.

Anyway back to your trolling.

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GuySmiley Sunday, 10 Oct 2021 at 5:50pm

#there'salwaysacomment

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 10 Oct 2021 at 6:30pm
GuySmiley wrote:

#there'salwaysacomment

Yeah there is and that pointless off topic troll comment seems to now be you, which is shame like Sypkan mentioned the other day you actually use to have something to add to the conversation, even if it was rarely anything i agreed with, but now you think you are clever trying to be a Facto re-hash with lame one liners dissing people, memes and hash tags (at least Facto post links and others opinions), you know for everyone that has been here for years it's just makes you look really lame because we all know you never use to do it before and only started doing it once facto did like a 12 year old boy in class copying the naughty kid thinking its somehow cool.

Anyway im going to do my best to not get in a back and forth with you cause it's pretty boring but happy to debate or discuss the topic being discussed with you or anyone else.

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blindboy Sunday, 10 Oct 2021 at 7:04pm

A great site for assessing the impact of climate change on specific weather events.

https://www.worldweatherattribution.org/

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GuySmiley Sunday, 10 Oct 2021 at 7:38pm

@info Your lack of self awareness and odious and all too predictable views on most issues means I have zero interest in engaging you in any meaningful way.

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 10 Oct 2021 at 8:11pm

Bonza - thanks for posting your original post !!!!!

I see I was very wrong and you did say Red Gum . Sincere apologies for repeatedly saying the WRONG thing .

The Red Gum ( also known as Blue Gum - I finally have it the right way round ) is in no way endangered and I find it impossible to believe it can't be successfully regrown . If a dam was to drown a major Old growth forest I would have reservations .

I will check on each fish but believe you are sending me on a wild goose chase . Do any of them actually live in the Mitchell River which is were this conversation started . None of them , I think , travel huge distances to spawn either .

Thanks Ben also . High time I did some serious research on this issue .

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gragagan Sunday, 10 Oct 2021 at 8:31pm

Thought of something earlier after getting tired of the back and forth.(I don't think new dams are good ideas btw).
Considered checking the wave pool thread when I thought, imagine putting a wave generating device in a dam. Can't remember ever seeing the concept discussed on here. Think of the possibilities. Imagine a beefed up version of kelly's train chugging across a lake. Install floating solar panels on the surface (in deeper water where waves won't be a problem) to ease water loss through evaporation and provide some power. Armour the shoreline with rocks and gravel to create waves and prevent / ease erosion and turbidity. Gov funded, instead of throwing money at the WSL, surfrider, HPC etc, and open for free or a small fee to the public.
That's my dumb idea of the day haha

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Supafreak Sunday, 10 Oct 2021 at 8:42pm

More big announcements by twiggy , I wonder if Fatboy will get on board and ditch his coal mine dreams . https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/fortescue-unveils-p...

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Hutchy 19 Monday, 11 Oct 2021 at 12:30pm

I have read all the links provided and did some research of my own.

Humans have used dams for thousands of years ( Jawa Dam 4C BCE ) and also transported water ( eg Roman aqueducts ) for thousands of years .

As we all know water is humans most important resource and is needed every day .

The positives of dam are obvious . Store water for drinking , growing food and recreation . Provide a habitat for plants and animals . They also greatly reduce the potential damage of flooding and create energy by hydro or turbines .

Existing water infrastructure requires a Royal Commision to ensure improvement and eliminate abuse and bad practices . This is urgently required !

Some negatives of dams are well known . They can displace humans , plants and animals . They also can submerge sacred sites .

Victoria largest ( mega ) dam the Thompson was built over 100 years ago . It stores 70% of Melbourne's water and provides 30% of our daily needs .

Other negatives of dams can be the effect on river flow , sedimentation flow , deforestation and fish movements .

A well managed dam eg Thompson mitigates most negatives . Diversion Tunnels have been built . Victorian Fisheries release fingerlings .

Thomson Reservoir harvests most of the flow from the upper catchment of Carran Carran (Thomson River) and has a significant effect on the flow in all downstream reaches. The natural flow from the Aberfeldy River, which meets Carran Carran (Thomson River) below Thomson Reservoir, is essential for providing natural freshes and high flows in Carran Carran (Thomson River).

Water for the environment is held in the Thomson Reservoir and released into the river as required. Reach 3 of Carran Carran (Thomson River) (from the Aberfeldy River confluence to Cowwarr Weir) is the highest priority for environmental watering due to its heritage river status, high- value native streamside vegetation, high-quality in-stream habitat and low abundance of exotic fish species.

At Cowwarr Weir, Carran Carran (Thomson River) splits into the old Carran Carran (Thomson River) course (reach 4a) and Rainbow Creek (reach 4b) (see system map below). Passing flows throughout the year are split two-thirds down reach 4a and one-third down 4b to avoid impacts to irrigators located on Rainbow Creek. Water for the environment is primarily delivered to the old Carran Carran (Thomson River) course (reach 4a) to support fish migration because Cowwarr Weir impedes fish movement through Rainbow Creek.
Source VEWH.vic .

Looking at an angling site shows that the river system is thriving . No negatives to plants or animals .

This is a mega dam . Victoria probably only needs one of these . Perhaps better to have 5-10 smaller ones built to reduce the need for pipelines and pumping .

The sites I was referred to are all so light weight !!!! Mostly written by authors with a bias . The Metong dam COULD reduce species by 40% being an example . Anything could happen ! One site said dams have a limited life span due to silt building up . Well the Thomson is still going strong and is having money spent on it by the Vic government to ensure this continues .

I guarantee the de sal plant is not working in a 100 years .

A site said evaporation from dams can cause climate change . FFS the Thompson is 85% FULL now so how evaporation is affecting that and causing our climate to change I have no idea .

Another site said dams are bad because they stop logs floating down a river and stopping nice pools from forming . Really amature hours wasted writing this garbage . Who would believe this !

Proper cost / benefit analysis has NEVER been done .

EVERYTHING I have read reinforces my thought the dams are good . ANYONE who would not seriously consider building new ones in the right places have a bias and will not look at the facts .

My initial thoughts after doing limited research .

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bonza Monday, 11 Oct 2021 at 12:49pm

No worries Hutch. well done for reading into some of the topics and links that were sent to you.

I'm not sure anyone here is arguing the positives that dams have brought historically for energy, economy and storage. The argument is what is the cost benefit to building new dams is in the current times.

Its clear you think the benefits outweigh the costs. Its clear I don't. i guess that's that.

Not sure what link you got re the logs. but in response I can offer the following from an Australia context. Native hardwood in our waterways are a good thing as they act as natural grade control structure to slow water down that limits the damage of flooding. they also create those deeper pools by scouring out the bed, which are really important habitat in freshwater streams that act as areas of refuge, shelter and areas of ambush for many of our instream critters.

lastly - while dams may help prevent damage from those minor 3-5 year flooding events they wont protect you from the big ones 1 in 100 events - unless of course you make them bigger which then becomes incredibly expensive. Further more by stopping those 3-5 year events you actually disconnect the waterways from the flooplains which also increases the drying effect across our landscape as well as the loss of valuable organic material needed for productivity.

you may think that's stupid. its just a bit more added context to a complex issue.

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Hutchy 19 Monday, 11 Oct 2021 at 2:25pm

Bonza - I don't think what you have written above is stupid .

I read all the links that were provided and the issue of the logs and pools were in one of them .

Would hope that logs would still fall in the river upstream and downstream of a dam creating the habitats needed . I would also hope dams could mitigate the effects of a mega flood . If we had enough of them we should be able to have them to be empty enough . Also if we followed Craig's predictions on La Nina's and proactively drain them ( creating a mini flood ) when getting too full this should help .

I really think if really well researched (eg old growth forests ) and really well managed ( Thompson Dam management must be giving us a lot of new knowledge ) Dams are a better option than building another couple of mega de sal plants .

We need to do a much better job with our current water ( Royal Commission ) and desperately need to plan for our current and future water needs .

Another Mega drought is coming and we so unprepared .

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brutus Monday, 11 Oct 2021 at 2:48pm

Hutchy....there are so many more people now than when dams were first built.....dams devastate eco systems, which are super fragile.....and there is probably not enough rain now to fill a dam....there are plans for the future...grey/recycled water...and water from desal plants....already locked in!
Not sure what Mega Floods we are going to have in Vic , we are seriously due for a drought soon , and as we are in a La Nina , this as wet as it gets...and we are still using desal plant water now....

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Hutchy 19 Monday, 11 Oct 2021 at 3:27pm

Brutus - All the reading I was given by people like you and the example of the Thompson dam shows that our mega dam does NOT devastate eco systems . In fact the opposite .

You keep saying there is not enough water to fill new dams . You should know that you are wrong . If we built a new dam at the time we built the de sal plant it would be 85% full like all our other dams . If it was on the Mitchell River there has been 3-5 floods in that time . One flood would probably fill it .

We are using water and creating CO2 from the de sal plant NOW because it is too expensive to turn the bloody thing off . Our dams are 85% full , we don't NEED the water from the de sal NOW .

I know no matter what I write ( which you don't read as I have already said all this before ) you will not open your mind . A pity . Why don't you come out and say we need another 2 de sal plants to be ready for the next mega drought . If we don't build any dams we will need them .

We have no floods in Vic that I know of so it isn't as wet as it gets . Rainfall is close to average .

Maybe you are saying we won't have any more floods ? I guarantee you will be wrong .

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blindboy Monday, 11 Oct 2021 at 5:11pm

So now the LNP have realised that denialism and doing nothing will not work at the next election, they want to disown the evil ways of their past....well except for Matt and Barnabubby..

Screen-Shot-2021-10-11-at-5-07-43-pm
incline smileys

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Roker Monday, 11 Oct 2021 at 5:31pm

Yeah. Well nothing’s changed. Nothing's going to change. The Murdoch press just trying to greenwash them over the line in the electorates where the doctors' wives might vote in one independent too many.

Of our mouthy ex PM's at least Rudd is doing a pretty decent if self interested and ego stroking job of exposing the machinations of Newscorp.

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indo-dreaming Monday, 11 Oct 2021 at 5:31pm

Good post at 12:30 Hutchy.

I forgot that point the other day, another positive is management of floodwaters, if smart you can prepare for times of high flood water risk and lower water levels in the dam, catch the flood water and reduce the flooding downstream.

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blindboy Monday, 11 Oct 2021 at 5:50pm

On the money there Roker.

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Roker Monday, 11 Oct 2021 at 6:13pm
blindboy wrote:

So now the LNP have realised that denialism and doing nothing will not work at the next election, they want to disown the evil ways of their past....well except for Matt and Barnabubby..

Screen-Shot-2021-10-11-at-5-07-43-pm
incline smileys

Funny how things can change though. The conventional wisdom in some quarters is that Labor is unelectable, dying even, because it will never be able to reconcile the competing interests of its working class suburban base and the socially progressive inner suburban professionals. And all of a sudden along comes a blue blood like Simon Holmes à Court and the conservative climate party and the LNP finds itself in a situation similar to Labor.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/08/climate-200-raise...

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Craig Monday, 11 Oct 2021 at 7:01pm

Read that article BB. Crazy how those observations are going in some regions outside 3-4 sigmas (standard deviations).

As has been predicted with a warming planet the extremes and outliers become bigger and wilder.

Thanks for sharing.

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blindboy Monday, 11 Oct 2021 at 7:07pm
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brutus Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 8:12am
blindboy wrote:

It's very concerning Craig as is this.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/an-economic-storm-is-hovering-ah...

the real worry is that the world stock markets have backed that the current inflation is only short term because of the Pandemic.
Inflation has now reached a stage where it looks much longer term , which means a big correction in the Global Stock markets , and the only way to slow down inflation is put up interest rates.....
We are about to see an amazing set of circumstances play out in our Global economy that we have never experienced before....the biggest boom in Real estate but no wage increases , economies in recession from the Pandemic , booming St0ck market based on ?? , lowest interest rates, supply chains decimated , costs of freight increasing like we have never seen...shortage of energy, Globally prices going up everywhere because of the laws of supply and demand.....
There has to be a correction very soon...

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brutus Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 8:17am
Hutchy 19 wrote:

Brutus - All the reading I was given by people like you and the example of the Thompson dam shows that our mega dam does NOT devastate eco systems . In fact the opposite .

You keep saying there is not enough water to fill new dams . You should know that you are wrong . If we built a new dam at the time we built the de sal plant it would be 85% full like all our other dams . If it was on the Mitchell River there has been 3-5 floods in that time . One flood would probably fill it .

We are using water and creating CO2 from the de sal plant NOW because it is too expensive to turn the bloody thing off . Our dams are 85% full , we don't NEED the water from the de sal NOW .

I know no matter what I write ( which you don't read as I have already said all this before ) you will not open your mind . A pity . Why don't you come out and say we need another 2 de sal plants to be ready for the next mega drought . If we don't build any dams we will need them .

We have no floods in Vic that I know of so it isn't as wet as it gets . Rainfall is close to average .

Maybe you are saying we won't have any more floods ? I guarantee you will be wrong .

Hutchy because you don't read and understand the links I give you , this is getting very tedious...so I have to move on from you and your lack of general knowledge....

The fact that you say " we don't need the de-sal plant now " means you didn't read the link that shows Vic Govt bought $65 m last year and $75 m this year of water from the de-sal plant......so we are already using the de-sal plant.....contrary to your made up claims....bye!

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brutus Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 8:19am
indo-dreaming wrote:

Good post at 12:30 Hutchy.

I forgot that point the other day, another positive is management of floodwaters, if smart you can prepare for times of high flood water risk and lower water levels in the dam, catch the flood water and reduce the flooding downstream.

Indo , feels like you are trolling.....so destroy eco systems in case there's a flood , LOL! Floods actually serves a purpose in flushing out water ways ...ah......let's just cement the whole lot!

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blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 8:25am

The question is when brutus. My understanding is that the US is about to pump more money into the system so the ride might continue for a while yet. The fundamental issue is the inequality in the distribution of wealth and the fact that a lot of the stimulus money globally was badly targeted and ended up where it would not only do no good, but actively make things worse. When the wealthy get more money they do not increase their spending on goods and services, which are the bedrock of the economy, they use it to push markets higher. If it all unwinds it will be very ugly for a long time.

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Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 8:25am

Brutus -"the real worry is that the world stock markets have backed that the current inflation is only short term because of the Pandemic."

You are wrong again ! The world stock and bond markets do factor this in . That what markets do in a capitalist world .

The REAL worry is that the Central Banks think it is transitory due to covid . They have already change from real targets to average targets . Their view of transitory can be fluid . How long is bloody transitory ? They will then change their story to inflation is GOOD .

You say - "There has to be a correction very soon..." . I say markets always have corrections . You think the rich can predict them but I say no one can be right on the timing . If someone proves to be right on this I will remind you a broken watch is right twice every 24 hours .

In past crashes the stock market has fallen and money went into bonds . With Bonds being 3 times as expensive as stocks do you think that will happen this time ?

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blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 8:26am

The markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.

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san Guine Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 8:34am

This is from 2011, I know there has been a lot of debate on other threads re MMT etc, but does the same macroeconomic thinking still apply?
https://www.cnbc.com/id/44051683

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Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 9:21am

SG - had a quick look at the article . About to head out so will be brief .

Had a discussion with others on SN re printing money on another thread . Not much fun .

Any country can print money but due to past experience do not do it due to very negative consequences .

The US has the worlds reserve currency . Due to this they are the ONE country that may get away with it for a short period of time .

In general countries should only print money to replace old money and maybe a bit more to cater for some other factors like inflation .

I will try and correct BB ( unable to remember the other silly person who couldn't get what lending and bond issues meant ) responses when I get back .

BB - you say "The markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent."

About time you came up with a statement that is correct . I think that is one of Keynes sayings .

On the upside AND on the downside I would add .

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blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 10:04am
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Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 2:13pm

BB - funny how that they were trying to point out "Don't forget about the importance of COAL " . It is probably Thermal coal ( used to generate electricity ) .

The price was $70p/t in late 19 and went down to $55 in the middle of 20 . NOW it is $240p/t . NEVER been higher !!!!!!

I thought you were anti Scomo and Barnaby ? Why would you show a picture PROVING how smart they were ?

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blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 2:18pm

No mate just to show what hypocrites they are arguing for net zero 2050

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Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 2:44pm

It shows how wrong you can be BB.

They were right to point out that coal was still needed around the world . I am sure you agree that the high price shows this . Have a look again , they brought the coal into parliament NOT to spruik their Climate Change policies but to promote coal . Even Barnaby is not silly enough to bring in a lump of coal to promote CO2 saving policies .

Australia ARE phasing out Thermal Coal for electricity production and don't produce much steel that needs coking coal . OTHER countries might have trouble getting to net zero 2050 . We will do a better job .

The LNP have that target and a least Pelosi was willing to acknowledge the PM for his endeavours on his recent trip . I rate her views a little ( tiny ) bit higher than I rate your views but that is not saying much .

BB - From my experience I don't think you have a good idea on anything let alone any idea on what I do or don't stand for .

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blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 2:42pm

Well several decades of opposition to acting on climate change as well as the removal of the carbon price have left us in a crisis in which the alternatives are a very different world for future generations or a serious cutback in emissions now with the accompanying discomfort. I have a pretty good idea where you stand on that issue.

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Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 2:56pm

I want us to reduce CO2 emissions . I know that people like you will still want to drive and fly to go surfing , use the aircon and heater when hot or cold and are unwilling to use alternatives or go without .

I propose we ditch the CO2 spewing de sal plant and build dams or power it with nuclear energy ( wind and solar are no good as we can't turn the fucken thing off ). Is that a good start ?

You keep squealing about a carbon price and carbon trading being scrapped . Wall Street agree with you and are desperate for it to be introduced . They say they are only wanting to help the world and are not interested in the money they can make . And you believe them !!! Shame on you for your lack of common sense !

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blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 3:04pm

Mate it is the oldest con in the do nothing handbook. Convince people that the solution is personal sacrifice when the real issue is lack of planning and investment for the transition over a long period. And the deal plant, in the context of this issue, is totally trivial. How doc you feel about being an upstanding member of the generation of swine? Because that is what you are, a fine example of the greediest collection of humans that have ever existed, unwilling to make any change that might interfere with their precious fucking lifestyle or delusional ideologies.

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:14pm
blindboy wrote:

Mate it is the oldest con in the do nothing handbook. Convince people that the solution is personal sacrifice when the real issue is lack of planning and investment for the transition over a long period. And the deal plant, in the context of this issue, is totally trivial. How doc you feel about being an upstanding member of the generation of swine? Because that is what you are, a fine example of the greediest collection of humans that have ever existed, unwilling to make any change that might interfere with their precious fucking lifestyle or delusional ideologies.

Listen to this hypocrite.

You know how change will come? When Fck sticks like this are coerced and ordered directly by governments into altering their individual contributions, which they’ve held onto for years, under the self justification that if they just brow beat others on the internet it all evens out.

When, and only when, we are all priced out of driving our cars and flying overseas will it dawn on the mouth breathers above that it IS individual emissions that cause the problem. By the time that happens, the old fucker will be decrepit and his movement will be limited and his joy will come from brow beating those who resist as he did for years. You can read these pieces of shit like a book.

“It’s not individual contributions” they say as 7,600,000,000 humans aspire to driving their own cars and joining the middle class. How freaking stupid can you be?

And guess who’s not going to have their lifestyles compromised to save the planet? The Nazis at the top of the pyramid who want to force everyone else to relinquish their concept of existence. They’ll still be flying around the world and have private vehicles.

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blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:30pm

No comment necessary
Screen-Shot-2021-10-12-at-4-28-23-pm

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Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:45pm

I am willing to make a quick comment . BOTH headlines look good to me .

The rest of the world wants and is prepared to pay the highest price for the best quality coal on the planet . Queenslanders want jobs as they told the rest of Australia at the last federal election . Remember Scomo's Bradbury impersonation ?

You bitched about no one doing the net zero 2050 BB and now you bitch when a newspaper writes a headline promoting the same thing .

I have clearly noticed you getting nastier and more unhinged in the last few days . Perhaps posting too much ? It is not healthy as you correctly told me .

Stu is deciding on my future and maybe yours as well ?

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blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 5:12pm

Both hinges well oiled and in good working order. Checked your own lately? The upper one sounds a bit loose and creaky from.here.

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 8:49am

BB -you say "The upper one sounds a bit loose and creaky from.here."

Not sure how facts can be creaky ! Coal is high and you did bitch about 2050 .

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soggydog Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 9:22am

I’d say the pin is totally gone BB, doors flapping in the breeze. Completely unhinged.

“How do you feel being an upstanding member of the generation of swine?”….gold

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 9:23am

BB and soggybrain - Some more facts if you believe China .

Chinese premier Li Keqiang said: 'Energy security should be the premise on which a modern energy system is built and and the capacity for energy self-supply should be enhanced,' the Guardian reported.

'Given the predominant place of coal in the country's energy and resource endowment, it is important to optimise the layout for the coal production capacity, build advanced coal-fired power plants as appropriate in line with development needs, and continue to phase out outdated coal plants in an orderly fashion.

'Domestic oil and gas exploration will be intensified.'

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soggydog Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 9:29am

Blowin, the onus on the individual argument has been shown to be a weapon of the do nothing crowd time and time again. We need a strong government leading with good policy. Don’t drive your car and turn off your aircon you hypocrite is the argument of the retarded.

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soggydog Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 9:49am

What’s your point Hutchy?

Are you saying we should kick the can down the road a little longer because “China”

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 10:00am

Soggy - Not sure what you mean by kicking the can down the road a little longer .

The implications of China's actions are obvious and confirms views help by anyone with common sense .

The Paris Agreement is a fraud . China will always act in it's best interests . Coal will be a vital part of theirs and the worlds modern energy system . That the PM was right to point this out in parliament . That people like you and BB are naive in believing otherwise .

It confirms a lot more but I don't think you and BB will even be able to digest the above so I will stop here .

Sad I even have to point these points out .

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 10:04am

Hutchy doesn't do points, just ill defined areas out there in a fantasy world.

But he seemed to be thrashing around about China's emissions. China has a net zero target of 2060 and as a totalitarian state, has no political barriers to getting there. Meanwhile we have no meaningful target and have to watch Morrison and Barnabubby do their Cheech and Chong impersonations trying to keep the dinosaur vote while pretending to care.

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 10:12am

BB- You are such a fool to believe China .

You say " China has a net zero target of 2060 and as a totalitarian state, has no political barriers to getting there. "

Please try and get it into your small brain that China has NO intention of doing this . That makes the Pairs Agreement worthless . China WILL ALWAYS do what they think is in their best interests .

They have signed multiple trade agreements and reneged on them ALL . What do they have to do to make you realise they can't be trusted ?

Try and step into the real world as it is you and soggy that are currently in Fantasy Land .

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Blowin Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 10:14am

You’ll never get a sinophile to be honest with themselves about China.

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soggydog Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 10:31am

We’re all making assumptions on China, we’re assuming they’ll move towards a target you’re assuming they’ll do nothing. One thing is for sure that I’ve seen from China lately is that if they say they’re going to do something, they usually do. They don’t give a fuck who they offend.

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blindboy Wednesday, 13 Oct 2021 at 10:34am

Hutchy, China will act in its self interest and, unlike most countries, they take the long view. This means that unlike the collection of parasites, thieves and corporate mouth pieces posing as our government, they will factor in the certainty of a rapidly deteriorating climate with more frequent and more intense heat waves, floods and storms, as well as rising sea levels, when making decisions. Then, regardless of your political views, you need to recognise that for an economic system that has raised billions out of poverty over a few decades, dealing with emission reductions is unlikely to prove much of a challenge.